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Author Topic: Days of Obligation  (Read 7201 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: May 12, 2010, 01:17:16 AM »

What sorts of penalties are associated with missing "Holy Days of Obligation" in the Papal churches?
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 01:35:41 AM »

You mean Roman Catholic parishes?  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2010, 01:45:42 AM »

You mean Roman Catholic parishes?

Which Rome? Old, New, or Third?  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 01:48:34 AM »

What sorts of penalties are associated with missing "Holy Days of Obligation" in the Papal churches?

¿Papal Churches?
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 02:08:42 AM »

I believe it is considered a grave sin.
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 02:24:27 AM »

You mean Roman Catholic parishes?

Which Rome? Old, New, or Third?  Wink

The Roman Catholic Church. The Church headed by the Pope in the Vatican.

There's no need to be rude and disrespectful. That's just arrogance.

It's not a good witness to Orthodoxy; it's just rude.

Catholics come on this forum to have civil discussion with us. We may be the only witness to Orthodoxy they ever see.

Do you really want that witness to be one of disrespecting their Church?

Heck, I'm surprised they don't walk away in disgust.
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2010, 03:14:21 AM »

There's no need to be rude and disrespectful. That's just arrogance.

I don't see what's so offensive, but I'll stop doing it in order to avoid needless offense.

So, Roman Catholics, can we get back on topic?
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 10:27:24 AM »

Silly Greeks and Russians...  The only Rome is found in the Apennine Peninsula.
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 10:45:07 AM »

It's a grave sin akin to missing Sunday Mass for no good reason.  If one misses a day of obligation w/o good reason, one should go to confession before receiving communion again.

I don't see what's so offensive, but I'll stop doing it in order to avoid needless offense.

So, Roman Catholics, can we get back on topic?

Speaking now as a moderator, I'm going to hold you to this promise now.

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 05:53:57 AM »

Is it considered a mortal sin to miss a day of obligation? 

Can days of obligation be fulfilled by attending a church that the Roman Catholic Church views as having a valid eucharist such as an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Church or a church of the Church of the East?

Are there such things as days of obligation in Eastern Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 06:09:13 AM »

Quote
Are there such things as days of obligation in Eastern Orthodoxy?
Well, in traditionally Orthodox lands there  was and still is something akin to this concept, although going to liturgy isn't really the point that's stressed on such days, but rather the cessation of work.
So, peasants like my grandmothers and others of their generation, wouldn't have done any sort of work on any major feast days (3 days for Easter and Christmas, 2 for Epiphany, 2 or 3 for Pentecost) or even on St. Elijah's, St. Procopius', of the lesser known feasts etc.
It is not something written in the catechism, but is a very strong, and socially sanctioned tradition.
One would observe these days partly out of fear of God (ensure good luck, health, abundant crops, ensure good weather), partly out of social conformity (avoid being gossiped about and judged by neighbours etc).
This is, needless to say, totally lost in America.
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 08:50:55 AM »


...not completely lost in the U.S.

We do try to take vacation days off work on major holidays.

We never do menial work such as laundry, cutting the lawn, mending or sewing, washing floors or other "household" work on holidays or the evening before.  It has to be completed the day before. 

For Pascha - no cooking takes place.  The food was prepared beforehand and it's a "cold" meal - although the best of the year.

My mother never sent us to school on holidays, instead we went to church.  In college, it seemed that Christmas (Jan 7) always coincided with the first week of classes for that semester....and while it was difficult to miss class on the first week, we always went to church, not school.

There are even "customs" attached to various days...besides being a strict fasting day, the Beheading of St. John the Baptist, it is forbidden on that day to "cut" anything, especially anything "round".  Therefore, if you need to cook with cabbage or onions on that day, they needed to be chopped the day before.  No chopping is to be done on that day.   Wink   While it sounds "silly"...it really drives home the message...and for kids especially, the gravity of the day.


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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 01:00:42 PM »

Intentionally missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation without a good excuse is a mortal sin in the Latin Catholic Church. The reason being, participation in Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation is a precept of the Church (CIC, can. 1246-1248; CCEO, can. 881 # 1, # 2, # 4; CCC 2042). Furthermore, violation of of the precepts is grave matter (the first constituent part of a mortal sin). Now, you may wonder what exactly a precept is according to the Catholic Church. The answer is defined in the Catechism as:


CCC 2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the indispensable minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor.


Also, this obligation is satisfied at any Catholic Church of any rite in the world. From the Code of Canons of the Latin Church:

CIC Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.


Does that answer the question?
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 03:09:40 PM »

Since Man Has Free will to worship or not ,How can a Church create a sin Mortal or other wise....Many Catholics are forced to become scripture Lawyers ,In very elaborate schemes to justify getting out of there Obligation....How can God Honor someones devotion at church if there doing it to fulfill a Obligation ,to avoid a mortal sin...This makes No Sense to me.... Grin
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 12:55:41 PM »

We follow God's commandments because such is OWED to Him. We have this obligation because He is our Lord and Creator. Now, the most perfect motivation for giving due honor to God is out of love, but the minimum is out of a sense of obligation to our heavenly Sovereign. From that seed can grow the more perfect motivation of love.
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 02:12:39 PM »

I never cared for the word "obligation" --even when I was in communion with the Latin Church.  It is a privilege to be present and to worship God during Divine Liturgy and other services. That is how I see it now.

 The Latin Church should change it to "Holy days of privilege".  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 02:35:29 PM »

So you don't owe God anything, eh?

Sure it is a privilege, but it is not a privilege that can justly be refused. We owe it, are obliged, it is our duty. Moderns may not like these words anymore, but they still apply.

We owe it to our Father to render Him the honor to which He is due. That is the beginning of love. "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 03:18:01 PM »

I never cared for the word "obligation" --even when I was in communion with the Latin Church.  It is a privilege to be present and to worship God during Divine Liturgy and other services. That is how I see it now.

 The Latin Church should change it to "Holy days of privilege".  Smiley

I agree with the essence of what you are saying, but I must also reiterate what lubeltri has said. It is a glorious privilege, which if refused, reveals the lack of love and appreciation for Christ's sacrifice in your heart. This is not to say that there are real reasons for missing Mass on Sunday - it's just that those should be more than, "I just didn't feel like it." Even if you don't feel like going out on a date with your wife on your anniversary, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't.

I would also like to point out that the local Greek Orthodox Church's website states that missing Divine Liturgy without a just cause is a mortal sin; see http://stgeorge.nm.goarch.org/info/christian%20orthodoxy.asp .

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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 03:34:25 PM »

I never cared for the word "obligation" --even when I was in communion with the Latin Church.  It is a privilege to be present and to worship God during Divine Liturgy and other services. That is how I see it now.

 The Latin Church should change it to "Holy days of privilege".  Smiley

Of course it's a privilege but one thinks that he doesn't owe God anything, such a person is sadly mistaken. Our very being is his gift to us, and so we owe him everything we are.
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2010, 04:06:40 PM »

So you don't owe God anything, eh?

I knew so many people that were frightened into going to Mass because they would go to hell if they did not fulfill their "obligation".  They were terrified that God would punish them and condemn them to hell if they did not pay God what he demanded--what He was owed.

We have free will.  We worship out of love because we yearn to be there.  

We do not go out of fear of an angry God.  Undecided

Yes we owe God our lives. We owe Him our hearts. We owe Him our love. 

But this obligation stuff is a little odd

Eh?
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2010, 04:25:38 PM »

So you don't owe God anything, eh?

I knew so many people that were frightened into going to Mass because they would go to hell if they did not fulfill their "obligation".  They were terrified that God would punish them and condemn them to hell if they did not pay God what he demanded--what He was owed.

We have free will.  We worship out of love because we yearn to be there.  

We do not go out of fear of an angry God.  Undecided

Yes we owe God our lives. We owe Him our hearts. We owe Him our love. 

But this obligation stuff is a little odd

Eh?

I can't see how its odd. If a person owes, then he is obliged. We owe, so we are obliged. I not sure what the problem is. Can you help me to understand your position a bit better.
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 04:28:41 PM »

So you don't owe God anything, eh?

I knew so many people that were frightened into going to Mass because they would go to hell if they did not fulfill their "obligation".  They were terrified that God would punish them and condemn them to hell if they did not pay God what he demanded--what He was owed.

We have free will.  We worship out of love because we yearn to be there.  

We do not go out of fear of an angry God.  Undecided

Yes we owe God our lives. We owe Him our hearts. We owe Him our love. 

But this obligation stuff is a little odd

Eh?

Fear of hell is not the best motive to worship our Creator, but it is a start! God accepts it, or else he wouldn't warn us about damnation so frequently in Holy Scripture.

Those people afraid of Hell went to church, and they heard the Gospel---and only the hardest of hearts could hear the Gospel regularly and not begin to respond with love. Without that fear of hell, they would not have heard the Gospel. Which is better?





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« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2010, 10:48:00 AM »

The following best sums it up for me. It is a quote from a Melkite Deacon:

The problem with the question is the concept of "obligation" which is legalistic at best. Fr. Damen Giger once expressed it this way: "We have no more 'obligation' to go to Church than we have to eat or breath." It's not so much an obligation as it is a requirement for life!

Clearly we Melkites do have feast days where we encourage everyone to come to church, but we do not have what the Latins would call "Holy Days of Obligation" for the reason given above.

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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2010, 10:57:10 AM »

Does anybody know the origin of the concept of and/or term "day of obligation"?
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 11:06:06 AM »

The following best sums it up for me. It is a quote from a Melkite Deacon:

The problem with the question is the concept of "obligation" which is legalistic at best. Fr. Damen Giger once expressed it this way: "We have no more 'obligation' to go to Church than we have to eat or breath." It's not so much an obligation as it is a requirement for life!

Clearly we Melkites do have feast days where we encourage everyone to come to church, but we do not have what the Latins would call "Holy Days of Obligation" for the reason given above.

Fr. Deacon Edward
A requirement is an obligation. He is creating a distinction without a difference.
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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2010, 11:06:06 AM »

I think moderns have attached some negative bagage to the term "obligation" that was not necessarily always there. Since the credo of the day is individual liberty and license, the concept of being obliged to anyone is not something that most can accept. However, this attitude is far from Christian.
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 11:32:54 AM »

Does anybody know the origin of the concept of and/or term "day of obligation"?

Good question. It seems to be a Latin legalistic term. I'd be interested to know when the term was coined.  Huh
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2010, 02:21:02 PM »

 I watched some u-tub video's ,Islam has this saying no compulsion in religion..But the u-tub videos show other wise,people that are selling things on a Friday in the square on there day of worship ,are beaten with rubber hoses there tables overturned and forced in to the mosques to pray...

Pushing a day of Obligation and making a mortal sin of it ,if one fails to attend church  ,does violate ones free will ...... Grin
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2010, 02:39:21 PM »

Yeah, requiring obedience to one of the Ten Commandments violates free will.  Go take that (and your married bishops) up with God, Stashko. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2010, 02:43:54 PM »

I watched some u-tub video's ,Islam has this saying no compulsion in religion..But the u-tub videos show other wise,people that are selling things on a Friday in the square on there day of worship ,are beaten with rubber hoses there tables overturned and forced in to the mosques to pray...

Pushing a day of Obligation and making a mortal sin of it ,if one fails to attend church  ,does violate ones free will ...... Grin

No it doesn't. The Church requires that everyone is present for the Divine Liturgy. To miss is a mortal sin (i.e., if you died you would not enter the Kingdom, as my priest describes it.)

You have compete and total freedom: the freedom to commit a mortal sin, or not commit a mortal sin. No one is forcing you to do anything against your will.
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« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2010, 02:50:58 PM »

 Grin I don't mind the Holy Orthodox Church Going Back to the Ancient Practice Of Married Bishops, and the Ordination of Woman Deacons, ... Grin

The ten comandments are given to us by God ,who can argue with that...I won't ...Days of obligation are created by a Fallable man Plus a mortal sin is added to boot to fill the pews.... Grin
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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2010, 02:58:03 PM »

I'v heard to miss The Holy Orthodox Liturgy a few times or more one excommunicates himself, but the Orthodox Church never attached a Mortal sin ...One Just deprives himself of Spiritual Food ,Growth... Grin Connt.... The Holy Orthodox Church is there to save ,not to condem people to hell..like you know Who..A Hospital it is ,not a warden of a prison.... Grin
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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2010, 03:17:23 PM »

"Just" deprives himself of Spiritual Food, Growth...??

By being excommunicated, one deprives oneself of more than just Spiritual Food...one deprives oneself of communion with God Himself.

By definition, being excommuinicated deprives one of all the Mysteries in the hope that such a deprivation will make one realize the gravity of one's errors, such as missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays w/o good reason and come back to the Church in a spirit of metanoia.

You make it sound like excommunication is just this cavalier and casual thing when it should be the most terrible thing an Orthodox Christian has to endure.
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2010, 03:35:16 PM »

Confession corrects that ,,,,And one is in Good Graces again.... Grin

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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2010, 03:40:25 PM »

Grin I don't mind the Holy Orthodox Church Going Back to the Ancient Practice Of Married Bishops, and the Ordination of Woman Deacons, ... Grin

The ten comandments are given to us by God ,who can argue with that...I won't ...Days of obligation are created by a Fallable man Plus a mortal sin is added to boot to fill the pews.... Grin

Fallible men to whom God said, "Whatever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven."
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2010, 03:42:48 PM »

But if you think missing Sunday services is not a sin, what is there to confess?  If all one is excommunicated for is missing Sunday liturgy for three successive weeks (I believe that's the canon, but I could be wrong), is this a fair penalty for not doing anything wrong?

Let me put it to you this way.  We both know that the Greek harmatia is the word most often used for "sin" in the Old Testament, a word that means "missing the mark," which has obvious archery connotations.  In Latin theology, an "obligation" is the mark, or target, that we are to shoot for.  By definition, not fulfilling that obligation means that we missed the mark.  
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2010, 04:04:47 PM »

Grin I don't mind the Holy Orthodox Church Going Back to the Ancient Practice Of Married Bishops, and the Ordination of Woman Deacons, ... Grin

The ten comandments are given to us by God ,who can argue with that...I won't ...Days of obligation are created by a Fallable man Plus a mortal sin is added to boot to fill the pews.... Grin

Fallible men to whom God said, "Whatever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven."


Im sure the Lord Didn't Mean that they have the right to create with the gift of binding and loosening, a sin mortal or otherwise and throw heavy  yokes around peoples necks...Christ say his yoke  is light...To Bind Or to Loosen sins applies to confessed sins ,that people have done  or are guilty of... Grin
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2010, 04:22:17 PM »

I would have to partly agree with our Catholic brethren on this one, especially Papist who said the argument of "obligation v. privilege" is one of no real difference. I also agree with my Orthodox brethren who say that we should do this out of love. In the end, no matter why you attend Divine Liturgy, the important thing is that you do for the Lord said in John (I am paraphrasing) that unless we partake of the Holy Eucharist, we have no life. Please note that He did not tell us to partake at least once a month, once a quarter or once a year. From Biblical accounts and the writings of the Early Fathers, we see that the Holy Eucharist was celebrated weekly. This is what we should strive to do: out of love in the East and out of obligation (and love I would hope) in the West.
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« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2010, 09:06:08 AM »

The Church requires that everyone is present for the Divine Liturgy. To miss is a mortal sin (i.e., if you died you would not enter the Kingdom, as my priest describes it.)

You have compete and total freedom: the freedom to commit a mortal sin, or not commit a mortal sin. No one is forcing you to do anything against your will.

Does the Holy Orthodox Church distinguish between "venial" and "mortal" sins?
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« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2010, 09:11:16 AM »

From Biblical accounts and the writings of the Early Fathers, we see that the Holy Eucharist was celebrated weekly.

Have you ever read the book: "Concerning Frequent Communion" by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite?  It is excellent!
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2010, 09:47:46 AM »


Does the Holy Orthodox Church distinguish between "venial" and "mortal" sins?

St Nicodemus the Hagiorite apparently made a distinction similar to the mortal/venial sin distinction.
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2010, 09:59:59 AM »

It is not something written in the catechism, but is a very strong, and socially sanctioned tradition.
One would observe these days partly out of fear of God (ensure good luck, health, abundant crops, ensure good weather), partly out of social conformity (avoid being gossiped about and judged by neighbours etc).

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'.

I've always considered and understood attendance at liturgical services on the Great or Solemn Feasts to be done for love of God - not fear of Him.

Do you really believe that the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox miners in Jacob's Creek, PA whose lives were spared on the Old Calendar Feast of St Nicholas (or, for that matter, the Italian Latin Catholic ones in Monongah, WV, likewise spared two weeks earlier, on the New Calendar feast of the same Saint) acted from fear of God when they gave up a day's pay to attend liturgy - in an era when doing so was an incredible sacrifice. One thinks not.  

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2010, 11:13:22 AM »

I'v heard to miss The Holy Orthodox Liturgy a few times or more one excommunicates himself, but the Orthodox Church never attached a Mortal sin ...One Just deprives himself of Spiritual Food ,Growth... Grin Connt.... The Holy Orthodox Church is there to save ,not to condem people to hell..like you know Who..A Hospital it is ,not a warden of a prison.... Grin

" Grin "

You keep using that emoticon. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2010, 11:32:14 AM »

Quote
I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'
Offensive  Huh Roll Eyes?
That's how the peasants among I grew up lived. I never heard them talk about "loving God", but I've heard them often talk about "fearing God".
And of course most things were done with a thought at what the neighbours/other villagers might say or think of. Avoiding to give occasion for gossip is very important in a village. And they were thoroughly Eastern Christians. They never read books about "Eastern theology", that's true, as well.
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« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2010, 12:02:49 PM »

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'.

I've always considered and understood attendance at liturgical services on the Great or Solemn Feasts to be done for love of God - not fear of Him.

Do you really believe that the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox miners in Jacob's Creek, PA whose lives were spared on the Old Calendar Feast of St Nicholas (or, for that matter, the Italian Latin Catholic ones in Monongah, WV, likewise spared two weeks earlier, on the New Calendar feast of the same Saint) acted from fear of God when they gave up a day's pay to attend liturgy - in an era when doing so was an incredible sacrifice. One thinks not.  

Yes.  Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2010, 12:03:22 PM »

Quote
I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'
Offensive  Huh Roll Eyes?
That's how the peasants among I grew up lived. I never heard them talk about "loving God", but I've heard them often talk about "fearing God".
And of course most things were done with a thought at what the neighbours/other villagers might say or think of. Avoiding to give occasion for gossip is very important in a village. And they were thoroughly Eastern Christians. They never read books about "Eastern theology", that's true, as well.

But isn't that really living in the fear of man, rather than the fear of God, if we are always worrying about what the neighbours think of us?

I don't think one needs to read any books whatsoever about 'eastern theology" to know these things, and to understand the happy balance between loving and fearing God. The gospels are simple to read, and available to all.
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« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2010, 12:12:31 PM »

It is not something written in the catechism, but is a very strong, and socially sanctioned tradition.
One would observe these days partly out of fear of God (ensure good luck, health, abundant crops, ensure good weather), partly out of social conformity (avoid being gossiped about and judged by neighbours etc).

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'.

I've always considered and understood attendance at liturgical services on the Great or Solemn Feasts to be done for love of God - not fear of Him.

Do you really believe that the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox miners in Jacob's Creek, PA whose lives were spared on the Old Calendar Feast of St Nicholas (or, for that matter, the Italian Latin Catholic ones in Monongah, WV, likewise spared two weeks earlier, on the New Calendar feast of the same Saint) acted from fear of God when they gave up a day's pay to attend liturgy - in an era when doing so was an incredible sacrifice. One thinks not.  

Many years,

Neil


"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - Psalm 111:10
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« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2010, 01:39:57 PM »

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - Psalm 111:10

Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?
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« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2010, 04:02:33 PM »

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" - Psalm 111:10

Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

Its probably not that simple. I think its the sense of awe and fear that the Israelites felt when they were in the desert and realized that mountain that was ablaze was on fire because of the presence of the LORD. They would not approach because they feared that they would die. God was pleased with their attitude of revernce. But this does not mean that the Israelites did not know that God loved them. But they also recognized his awesomeness.
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2010, 02:59:51 AM »

I'd have to say that I find the phrases 'socially sanctioned tradition', 'fear of God', and 'social conformity' to be as offensive to Eastern Christian thinking as the Latin terminology 'days of obligation'.

I've always considered and understood attendance at liturgical services on the Great or Solemn Feasts to be done for love of God - not fear of Him.

Do you really believe that the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox miners in Jacob's Creek, PA whose lives were spared on the Old Calendar Feast of St Nicholas (or, for that matter, the Italian Latin Catholic ones in Monongah, WV, likewise spared two weeks earlier, on the New Calendar feast of the same Saint) acted from fear of God when they gave up a day's pay to attend liturgy - in an era when doing so was an incredible sacrifice. One thinks not.  

Yes.  Smiley

Mickey, my brother,

'yes' - you agree with me? or 'yes' , you believe they acted out of fear?

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2010, 10:39:04 AM »

Mickey, my brother,

'yes' - you agree with me? or 'yes' , you believe they acted out of fear?

Yes, I agree with you.
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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2010, 10:43:26 AM »

Its probably not that simple. I think its the sense of awe and fear that the Israelites felt when they were in the desert and realized that mountain that was ablaze was on fire because of the presence of the LORD. They would not approach because they feared that they would die. God was pleased with their attitude of revernce. But this does not mean that the Israelites did not know that God loved them. But they also recognized his awesomeness.
You skirted the question.  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?
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« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2010, 10:51:52 AM »

No, he didn't.  He answered your question pretty honestly and directly.

You're asking him a different one, now.
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« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2010, 11:02:51 AM »

Its probably not that simple. I think its the sense of awe and fear that the Israelites felt when they were in the desert and realized that mountain that was ablaze was on fire because of the presence of the LORD. They would not approach because they feared that they would die. God was pleased with their attitude of revernce. But this does not mean that the Israelites did not know that God loved them. But they also recognized his awesomeness.
You skirted the question.  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?
No I didn't. I said that it's more complicated than your question suggests. It is indeed a certain kind of fear, but a kind of fear that is associated with the recognition of awesomeness and not a fear that God wants us to destroy us or is against us. A fear that God is out to get us would not be Christian at all. Perfect love casts out such fear.
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« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2010, 12:29:51 PM »

No, he didn't.  He answered your question pretty honestly and directly.

You're asking him a different one, now.

I beg your pardon Mr moderator--let me clarify.

Original question: Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

After he talked around it--I rephrased it.

Rephrased:  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?


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« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2010, 12:35:04 PM »

It is indeed a certain kind of fear, but a kind of fear that is associated with the recognition of awesomeness and not a fear that God wants us to destroy us or is against us.

So there is no state of "being afraid of" or "scared of" God?  Correct?

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« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2010, 12:38:03 PM »

From Biblical accounts and the writings of the Early Fathers, we see that the Holy Eucharist was celebrated weekly.

Have you ever read the book: "Concerning Frequent Communion" by Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite?  It is excellent!

I just read an excerpt and it was excellent. I especially like Saint Nikodemos' quotation of several famous Orthodox saints, all of whom extolled frequent communion. My primary inspiration, however, is Father Alexander Schmemann whose words on frequent communion I think were inspired by the Holy Spirit. They were not different in their substance than the earlier theologians and saints of the Church but they were so wonderfully and clearly phrased that they resonated in me and convinced me that it is indeed the Lord's will that we do take communion frequently.
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« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2010, 12:39:58 PM »

No, he didn't.  He answered your question pretty honestly and directly.

You're asking him a different one, now.

I beg your pardon Mr moderator--let me clarify.

Original question: Do you think that the word "fear" is referring to the state of being "afraid" or "scared"?

After he talked around it--I rephrased it.

Rephrased:  Do you ever interpret "fear" to be synonymous with "being afraid" of God?



Firstly, I'm not posting as a moderator.  For the umpteenth time, unless it's in green, I'm posting as a poster.  

I just found your insinuation that Papist is being disingenuous to be, well, disingenuous.  He answered your question how you put it and, instead of just clarifying your question, you felt the need to craft your post in such a manner to make him look like he's avoiding your original question in the way you initially phrased it.

Such rhetoric should be beneath all of us, and I'm just tired of seeing here on OC.net as a poster, especially in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  
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« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2010, 12:53:18 PM »

He answered your question how you put it and, instead of just clarifying your question, you felt the need to craft your post in such a manner to make him look like he's avoiding your original question in the way you initially phrased it.

I truly felt he avoided a direct answer. It was not my intention to be disingenuous. I am sorry you feel that way.

Such rhetoric should be beneath all of us, and I'm just tired of seeing here on OC.net as a poster, especially in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  

I think you are over reacting and misinterpreting my intentions--and frankly I am tired of seeing this kind of judgementalism here at OC.net.

I will tell you what I was trying to get at---before you decided to reprimand me.

I was raised and taught in a Latin Catholic era, which kind of perpetuated an atmosphere of fear---not a fear which eminates from love, reverence, and awe---but a fear of being condemned by an angry God.  When I hear the term “day of obligation” it brings back this kind of memory to me. True fear is not terror, but awe and reverence in the presence of absolute beauty and grace.

I am going to remove myself from this forum now.

Blessings to all!
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« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2010, 01:03:56 PM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh
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« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2010, 02:29:57 PM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

Any person who sins knowingly and does so in direct disobedience to God's laws and dies unshriven runs the grave risk of ending up unrepentant on the wrong side of the Father.  What can the Father do short of forcing someone to be obedient?

Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as a sin by which we condemn ourselves?  Sounds like it.

Makes the life of the Spirit something of a bad joke if that is what you are suggesting.

M.


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« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2010, 02:34:23 PM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.
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« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2010, 02:55:13 PM »

It is indeed a certain kind of fear, but a kind of fear that is associated with the recognition of awesomeness and not a fear that God wants us to destroy us or is against us.

So there is no state of "being afraid of" or "scared of" God?  Correct?



Well, we should be afraid of the fact that if we do not serve God, we will end our lives in his judgement rather than in his mercy.
BUT,
We should approach the throne of grace with confidence, knowing that God is a loving Father and does everying in our lives with our salvation in mind.
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« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2010, 05:17:13 PM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God....... Grin Huh Huh
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« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2010, 07:25:08 PM »

I Listened to Serbian Orthodox Priest Give a sermon ,On being Tardy For Holy liturgy ,Coming at different times...He said the Church is the House of God ,the lord being the Host sending out invitations,Hosting a banqued at his house ,why offend the host of the banquet by being late...

He associated attending the house of God with a Human Host  giving a party Banquet, sending invitation to the guests some come on time, some later ,the ones that came later sort of offended the host of the banquet...He never attached a mortal or venial sin to it though.... Grin maybe better late than never he had in mind...  
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« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2010, 12:07:22 AM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God....... Grin Huh Huh
Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2010, 01:13:55 AM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God....... Grin Huh Huh
Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?
I don't know.  I am aware, though, that the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction is foreign to Orthodoxy, which means that, even if this priest is not teaching error, he is at least teaching a concept he likely borrowed from a heterodox tradition.
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« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2010, 01:29:38 AM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God....... Grin Huh Huh
Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?
I don't know.  I am aware, though, that the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction is foreign to Orthodoxy, which means that, even if this priest is not teaching error, he is at least teaching a concept he likely borrowed from a heterodox tradition.
Nevertheless, he still finds it highly important for Orthodox Christians to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday. If he is not teaching error, then why do we Westerners get ripped upon for using the word "obligation"? If we love God, we are obligated to celebrate the sacraments regularly. It should be done with joy and devotion, but I do not see why it would be incorrect for it to be described as sinful for us to neglect to celebrate the sacraments. This particular priest has done so publicly with no correction from his bishop.
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2010, 01:42:18 AM »

God is Merciful the popes are Not.....

So according the catholic church ,If a person fails to fullfill his obligation  ,happens to die, he dies in a mortal sin is sent to hell.. Grin  

It's Not God the Catholics have to fear, but  fear the popes that have the power and condemned quite alot of there own Faithful just for eating meat on Fridays and for other things, including the orthodox to hell for not submitting to their authority ....... Grin Because they have the power....Yea Right... Grin

Fr. Ambrose Has Brought this up a few times.....  laugh

 

I have already linked to the official website of an Orthodox parish which states that failing to attend Divine Liturgy on Sunday is a mortal sin. The term "mortal sin" was used. The Catholic Church is not the only one that has a Sunday "obligation". The Orthodox Church just doesn't use that word.

I've heard of Smrtni Grek [Sin that leads to death ] never mortal sin because of not going to church because of some obligation one has to fullfill to please God....... Grin Huh Huh
Nevertheless, the orthodox pastor of this parish calls missing Divine Liturgy on Sundays a mortal sin. Is he in error to do so?
I don't know.  I am aware, though, that the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction is foreign to Orthodoxy, which means that, even if this priest is not teaching error, he is at least teaching a concept he likely borrowed from a heterodox tradition.
Nevertheless, he still finds it highly important for Orthodox Christians to attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday. If he is not teaching error, then why do we Westerners get ripped upon for using the word "obligation"? If we love God, we are obligated to celebrate the sacraments regularly. It should be done with joy and devotion, but I do not see why it would be incorrect for it to be described as sinful for us to neglect to celebrate the sacraments. This particular priest has done so publicly with no correction from his bishop.
Even if the Orthodox don't use such language as "day of obligation", such that some even find the phrase offensive for the legalistic images it brings to their minds, I think it fair to say that the Orthodox Church does place a very high value on weekly participation in her worship and does consider it a sin to miss the Divine Liturgy for more than just a couple of weeks without a reason worthy of a blessing.  As such, I agree with those who on this thread call the contrasting Latin/Eastern views on this question a distinction without a difference.

I think of it this way:  Jesus commanded us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood and told us that we have no life in us unless we do so.  If I miss the Divine Liturgy for a few Sundays and end up banned from reception of His Flesh and Blood until I'm restored to Communion via confession, I've essentially deprived myself of the very Source of my life.  What can be more mortal than that?
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« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2010, 01:55:13 AM »

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love... Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2010, 02:02:02 AM »

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love... Grin
Yes, but love does put on us an obligation to die to ourselves so that we may live solely for our beloved.  Is that not what marriage is all about? Wink
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« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2010, 02:05:49 AM »

Even the Orthodox Christians that attend Church only on Great and Holy days,the clergy and the bishop probably know quite a lot them ,never pointing a finger towards them condemning them to hell they may give a sermon on receiving Holy communion regularly,,The clergy prays for them that the Holy Spirit moves them in the right direction unto repentance and reconciliation and a deepening of there Faith the church is there to heal us and intercede for us...... Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2010, 02:12:42 AM »

Even the Orthodox christians that attend Church only on Great and Holy days,the clergy and the bishop prabably know quite a lot them ,never point a finger towards them condeming them to hell they may give a sermon on recieving Holy communion regularly,,The clergy prays for them that the Holy Spirit moves them in right direction unto repentance and reconciliation and a deepening of there Faith...... Grin
Yes, it is one thing to speak in general of how damaging failure to attend the Liturgy regularly can be, but it's another to point fingers and "condemn people to hell" for not attending.  I don't believe that any right-practicing Orthodox, or any pious Catholic for that matter, would make such a judgment.  (Heck, I think it's a wonderful thing to see the Easter-and-Christmas Christians in church that often, for at least they're coming to church.)
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« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2010, 02:15:15 AM »

Even the Orthodox christians that attend Church only on Great and Holy days,the clergy and the bishop prabably know quite a lot them ,never point a finger towards them condeming them to hell they may give a sermon on recieving Holy communion regularly,,The clergy prays for them that the Holy Spirit moves them in right direction unto repentance and reconciliation and a deepening of there Faith...... Grin
Yes, it is one thing to speak in general of how damaging failure to attend the Liturgy regularly can be, but it's another to point fingers and "condemn people to hell" for not attending.  I don't believe that any right-practicing Orthodox, or any pious Catholic for that matter, would make such a judgment.  (Heck, I think it's a wonderful thing to see the Easter-and-Christmas Christians in church that often, for at least they're coming to church.)
While I would prefer that the Christmas and Easter Christians would attend more often, when faced with the massive secularization of our culture in the United States I too find myself happy that they are there at all.
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2010, 02:19:35 AM »

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love... Grin
I've always understood non-attendance of Mass being a mortal sin not being a threat, but a mere statement of fact. Some interpret it as a commandment of the church, which if violated, constitutes a mortal sin. However, we must remember that all mortal sins are ultimately matters of the heart. Hence, if my love for God in my heart fails to the point where for no just reason I cannot be bothered to spend an hour offering the Eucharistic sacrifice once weekly, then my soul is clearly in serious trouble regardless of whether or not I am violating a commandment of my bishop.

You said the Church is there to heal us - I agree. Weekly attendance at Mass is the prescription. If we fail to take the medicine of Eternal Life, why should we be surprised if we do not gain Eternal Life?
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2010, 02:20:53 AM »

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love... Grin
I've always understood non-attendance of Mass being a mortal sin not being a threat, but a mere statement of fact. Some interpret it as a commandment of the church, which if violated, constitutes a mortal sin. However, we must remember that all mortal sins are ultimately matters of the heart. Hence, if my love for God in my heart fails to the point where for no just reason I cannot be bothered to spend an hour offering the Eucharistic sacrifice once weekly, then my soul is clearly in serious trouble regardless of whether or not I am violating a commandment of my bishop.

You said the Church is there to heal us - I agree. Weekly attendance at Mass is the prescription. If we fail to take the medicine of Eternal Life, why should we be surprised if we do not gain Eternal Life?
Very well said! Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2010, 04:00:08 AM »

I noticed your Catholic ,I understand where your coming From...It Doesn't apply to us ,we worship out of love Of God, In his Holy Orthodox Church his right hand established....
The Orthodox Church is there to heal us ,not to throw condemnations on us,or even force us under threat of a mortal sin to attend church we do it because of love... Grin
I've always understood non-attendance of Mass being a mortal sin not being a threat, but a mere statement of fact. Some interpret it as a commandment of the church, which if violated, constitutes a mortal sin. However, we must remember that all mortal sins are ultimately matters of the heart. Hence, if my love for God in my heart fails to the point where for no just reason I cannot be bothered to spend an hour offering the Eucharistic sacrifice once weekly, then my soul is clearly in serious trouble regardless of whether or not I am violating a commandment of my bishop.

You said the Church is there to heal us - I agree. Weekly attendance at Mass is the prescription. If we fail to take the medicine of Eternal Life, why should we be surprised if we do not gain Eternal Life?
Very well said! Smiley
Thank you!

However, I would like to add a caveat to what I said. Some who read this may misinterpret my saying "love" as the tender emotion which we often feel. While it is indeed commendable that we feel this emotion towards God (along with many other emotions), the lack of this emotion, which may result in us not feeling like attending our weekly Eucharist, is not necessarily a volitional sin. Certainly, I think that it is evidence of our sinful condition, but it only means that we must fight the flesh even stronger and attend Eucharist nonetheless.

I view each Sunday kind of like being an anniversary. Those of us who are lucky enough to be married (of whom I am not one) know that even if they are in a bad mood on the day of their anniversary, God help them if they forget to take their wife to dinner and give her a gift (or at least acknowledge the date in an appropriate manner). Just because the passion which exists between you and your wife is temporarily diminished does not mean that you love her any less. Likewise, not feeling like going to Divine Liturgy or Mass is all right. You still love God; it only proves that you love him all the more if you force yourself to go against your natural inclinations.
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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