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« on: January 20, 2004, 06:47:38 PM »

Does the Oriental Christian East accept the 7 Ecumenical Councils? And has the Orientals given an open and publican condemnation of the heresy Monophysiteism?

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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2004, 06:54:47 PM »

The Oriental Orthodox communion do not consider the latter 4 councils to be ecumenical - and you would need to define exactly what you mean. But they reject all of the heresies that these latter councils reject. Indeed having never abandoned the veneration of icons or ever having considered the Three Chapters as anything but blasphemy they did not need a council to declare these things.

The Oriental Orthodox have always and at all times condemned any heresy which diminishes the confession of the union of a perfect humanity and a perfect divinity in Christ. Eutyches was condemned from the time of Chalcedon through to the present and any who taught his heresy were excommunicated.

A very recent and official repetition of this position says:

"We agree in condemning the Nestorian and the Eutychian heresies. We neither separate nor divide the human nature in Christ from His divine nature, nor do we think that the former was absorbed in the latter and thus ceased to exist.

The four adverbs used to qualify the mystery of the hypostatic union belong to our common tradition - without commingling (or confusion) (asyngchytos), without change (atreptos), without separation (achoristos) and without division (adiairetos). Those among us who speak of two natures in Christ, do not thereby deny their inseparable, indivisible union; those among us who speak of one united divine-human nature in Christ do not thereby deny the continuing dynamic presence in Christ of the divine and the human, without change, without confusion."

and

"Both families agree in condemning the Eutychian heresy. Both families confess that the Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, only begotten of the Father before the ages and consubstantial with Him, was incarnate and was born from the Virgin Mary Theotokos; fully consubstantial with us, perfect man with soul, body and mind (nouj); He was crucified, died, was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day, ascended to the Heavenly Father, where He sits on the right hand of the Father as Lord of all Creation. At Pentecost, by the coming of the Holy Spirit He manifested the Church as His Body. We look forward to His coming again in the fullness of His glory, according to the Scriptures."

and

"Both families agree that the natures with their proper energies and wills are united hypostatically and naturally without confusion, without change, without division and without separation, and that they are distinguished in thought alone."

And of course through the course of history I could pull out hundreds and hundreds of similar statements.

The non-Chalcedonians did not reject Chalcedon because they supported Eutyches but because they believed that Chalcedon gave room for Nestorianism to continue to flourish.

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Peter Theodore
 

« Last Edit: January 20, 2004, 06:55:40 PM by peterfarrington » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2004, 08:13:06 PM »

How can the last three council be considered ecumenical, if the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church and their Daughter Orthodox Churches were not represented in any of them? They are local councils, binding for the local churches.
 
As Deacon Peter said, The Oriental Orthodox reject the heresies the last four councils reject, even those which Chalcedon failed to  completely condemn. Chalcedon political implications are very hard to accept, as a very violent persecution followed this council and THE SAINT POPE DIOSCOROUS was unfairly excommunicated for no heretic teachings, but because he opposed the Chalcedon weak defense against Nestorious, opposed the vage Tome of LEO which Nestorians identified with, and he was not given a chance to defend himself. He was excommunicated for political reason, not for his dogma.  
 

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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2004, 05:29:43 AM »

It should also be noted that though the difficulties with Chalcedon were theological - the perception that it allowed room for Nestorianism - nevertheless the lasting separation was rooted in the severe persecution which caused many tens of thousands of deaths, made any assembly of the non-Chalceodonians a crime, and made a determined effort to stamp out the community by force.

That persecution is no longer operative, a new context has appeared which allows for a full explanation of each side's point of view with new possibilities for reconciliation.
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2004, 10:13:29 AM »

peterfarrington and Stavro,

What do you both think THE SAINT POPE DIOSCOROUS would want at this point in the rapproachment efforts? Continued separation?

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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2004, 11:26:28 AM »

What do you both think THE SAINT POPE DIOSCOROUS would want at this point in the rapproachment efforts? Continued separation?

If it is the case that the EO after Constantinople II closed the loopholes which were in Chalcedon and madea definite stand against Nestorianism - and of course I consider that to be the case - then I believe that he hears my prayers for unity between the OO and EO and is interceding to that end.

I have not found in my study of the OO fathers that the treatment of Dioscorus is ever used as a substantial issue in the controversy. I almost think that the OO fathers expected persecution, exile and even death. What mattered more was the theological issues at stake.

I am sure the Pope Saint Dioscorus does not bear a grudge and longs for the union of those who confess the same faith.
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2004, 04:36:48 AM »

If we confess the same faith, and we are christians enough to let our pride aside and realize that what happened in Chalcedon is simply put "unholy", I am sure all the Champions of Orthodoxy like St. Athanasius, St. Cyril, St. Dioscrus, St. Severes and all the Church in Heaven will intercede on our behalf, and on the behalf of the Pope Shenouda and the Patriarchs,  to grant them success in their continued effort to heal what Chalcedon did.

I had a question: What was the new addition to Orthodoxy in Chalcedon, other than to dispose St. Dioscorus and to persecute the OO and kill millions of them ?
The TOME of LEO is very weak in theology, and can be explained in a very nostorian way.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 04:37:18 AM by Stavro » Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
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