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Author Topic: Fanaticism hinders a man's understanding... (Orthodox "fanaticism")  (Read 3746 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: May 05, 2010, 01:18:12 PM »

Fanaticism hinders a man's understanding but true faith gives it freedom. - Elder Macarius of Optina

I've noticed since I became interested in Orthodoxy 5 years ago, there seems to be three realms of people in the Orthodox Church. The very liberal, the moderates, and the very conservative.

The extreme liberals border on true ecumenism, and may seek to "reform" the Church or at least make it somewhat more "Western".

Whereas the extreme conservatives are as anti-ecumenism as you can get. They regard any relations with other "Churches" as ecumenism. They also tend to be extreme on other aspects such as canons, "traditions", etc...

I've always been taught that the middle road, the moderate, is where Orthodoxy truly lays. I'm always cautious of those who are too liberal and too conservative.

So why do we allow these two extreme groups in Orthodoxy? It seems to be that both are hindrances to the Church and hurt it more than they help it. (they also seem to often be the sources of conflict between Orthodox)

What are we to do about this? Can we do anything about it? Or will fanaticism always be an unfortunate part of faith?
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 01:46:37 PM »

I could be wrong..Doesn't The Lord say ,A person Better Be Hot Or Cold Than Warm ,The warm and fuzzy feeling type,your all right im alright ,the Lord doesn't like or want this, he prefers hot or cold ...for him or against him....  Grin
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 01:46:51 PM »

Quote
So why do we allow these two extreme groups in Orthodoxy? It seems to be that both are hindrances to the Church and hurt it more than they help it. (they also seem to often be the sources of conflict between Orthodox)

What are we to do about this? Can we do anything about it? Or will fanaticism always be an unfortunate part of faith?
Forgive me, but when you put the situation discussed in terms of "why do allow them to exist" you have reached quite an extreme point yourself. Let them be, our church is not a cult or a party, where everyone is required to be as ideologically pure as possible.

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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 01:50:06 PM »

Sound to me like you're a bit fanatically moderate  Grin.

Without the two extremes, how could there be a middle? Don't we all wander back and forth a bit along the liberal-conservative continuum?
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 01:52:47 PM »

BOO!  Cool
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 02:27:15 PM »

Well, the first thing that came to mind is the passage about the tares…

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. “ - Matt. 13:24-30

But I think that is not a fair answer.  I think it the Church is wide and deep enough that it can allow for a great variety of people.  Christ has broad shoulders, and it able to take all of our individual peculiarities. The important things is that we remain orthodox in faith and practice and don’t place ourselves outside the Church, even if we sometimes might have extreme positions that are deemed to be on the fringe.

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” - 1 Cor. 4:5
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 02:47:09 PM »

Btw, let me add that I don't disagree with what Elder Macarius of Optina said, I just don't think that we can (or should) do anything about those we deem to be extreme. If they place themselves outside the Church by holding to non-orthodox faith, then that's on them, if they don't place themselves outside the Church, then there's your answer: they're still part of the Church.
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 04:28:09 PM »

So you agree with the foundation of the New World Order and the Religion of the Anti-Christ??


I don't think that the word 'Fanaticism' should ever be used.

That's just an excuse to justify Ecumenism, when it cannot be justified.

With re-guard to the 'middle' stance, we know that the Holy Fathers taught us that we must not be excessive in our virtue, and that we must not be too lax so that we fall from the virtues.

But that is in re-guards to the virtues, its not talking about our Faith, From the Proverb, ''Turn not to the the right hand, nor to the left''

If you want to talk about something that hinders an man's faith it is that kind of 'extremism'

The Optina Elder Macarius was talking about that, not about people who want to rightly defend the Faith.

He was talking about being 'fanatical' about practicing the virtues too much makes us faithless, because only a faithless person would feel like he can save himself by excessive virtue

Get it?


88Devin12,

Are you telling us that we have the right to trample on the traditions and Canons of the church?

God forbid.

But I think that the Ecumenism has already elevated itself above the Canons and Traditions of the Faith.



Yeah I'm so extreme that I would strap a bomb to myself and blow everybody up Wink
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 04:48:57 PM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 04:46:56 PM »

I've always been taught that the middle road, the moderate, is where Orthodoxy truly lays. I'm always cautious of those who are too liberal and too conservative.

This is true, but liberal and conservative are very subjective lables. Those who may be considered very conservative today because of the strictness with which they keep the fasts, or their observance of the daily offices of prayers, etc. would probably have been considered fairly liberal in the past. How far is it acceptable for the middle road to shift either way? Christianity is certainly not compatible with fanaticism, or those who ignore the spirit for the sake of the letter...but who those people are is a question we should be cautious when answering.
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 05:40:15 PM »

I'm always curious to find out how long people who come off as "extremists" have been Orthodox Christians. With that in mind, DeathToTheWorld, when did you convert?
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 05:50:28 PM »

We need all the groups so we can learn from one another, and God willing, enter the kingdom of God together.

If we start kicking people out, then where is the hope for their salvation?

If we keep them in the Church, then they have the hope of salvation, and who knows, they may change their views!
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 06:02:55 PM »



Are you telling us that we have the right to trample on the traditions and Canons of the church?

If you think even the most strict traditionalist form of Orthodoxy adheres to ALL of the Canons and traditions of the Church, I suggest you actually go READ all the Canons first. You'll quickly find out NO ONE is adhering to ALL of the Canons....I can promise you I doubt there is ANY Orthodox Church demanding that if someone masturbates they must fast for 40 days and do 100 prostrations a day before they can take Communion again. Or a woman who has a miscarriage is excommunicated for a YEAR!  And if there WAS a Church or priest that required either of those two Canons to be enforced, I'd consider reporting them to the civil authorities for mental abuse and I'd hope you would do the same.

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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 06:10:44 PM »



Are you telling us that we have the right to trample on the traditions and Canons of the church?

If you think even the most strict traditionalist form of Orthodoxy adheres to ALL of the Canons and traditions of the Church, I suggest you actually go READ all the Canons first. You'll quickly find out NO ONE is adhering to ALL of the Canons....I can promise you I doubt there is ANY Orthodox Church demanding that if someone masturbates they must fast for 40 days and do 100 prostrations a day before they can take Communion again. Or a woman who has a miscarriage is excommunicated for a YEAR!  And if there WAS a Church or priest that required either of those two Canons to be enforced, I'd consider reporting them to the civil authorities for mental abuse and I'd hope you would do the same.




Oh, well, st John the faster greatly reduced the canons in the 7th century.

I agree that the ones concerning penitence are way too strict for our own times.

I'm just talking about the Canons concerning heretics and unbelievers.

Now those are the Canons which should NEVER be broken.

Tha'ts what I should have said.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 06:16:52 PM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 06:12:31 PM »

We need all the groups so we can learn from one another, and God willing, enter the kingdom of God together.

If we start kicking people out, then where is the hope for their salvation?

If we keep them in the Church, then they have the hope of salvation, and who knows, they may change their views!


We need all the groups so we can learn from one another, and God willing, enter the kingdom of God together.

If we start kicking people out, then where is the hope for their salvation?

If we keep them in the Church, then they have the hope of salvation, and who knows, they may change their views!


You are deluded if you think like that. Kick them all out.

Listen to the scriptures, they are what our whole faith is based upon.

If we don't listen to the scriptures, then we have no faith, we are Godless.

This is what the Apostle says about people who are not in the right belief:

Titus 3

10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.


After the 1st and 2nd admonition reject, because that person is corrupted. They are too proud to change. They think that they are right.


They are subverted, being condemned of themselves


You've been brainwashed by the whole ecumenism thing.

Snap out of it.


Heresy and false teachings work like venom or poison, it infects one part of the body, then it spreads, and spreads, until the whole body becomes destroyed.
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100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2010, 06:25:31 PM »

I'm always curious to find out how long people who come off as "extremists" have been Orthodox Christians. With that in mind, DeathToTheWorld, when did you convert?




It was not very long ago that I had a near death experience that completely changed my life.

I was a baptized in 1996, but I grew up as an heathen and a great sinner.

I was never taught anything about my baptism when I got baptized by the Greek Orthodox priest.

I grew up in total ignorance about my faith.

I attended services and took communion without really knowing anything about my faith.


And now I know how evil ignorance is. How wicked it is.

I went to confession, bible school. But I never learned anything.

It was total form worshipper, I was a borderline idolater.


The passions had blinded me so much and the lack of good teachers is what the cause was.


I did not even know why Jesus was crucified for us, it even became repulsive to me as a child.


Ignorance is evil.



But it all changed last year.  I woke up from the slumber of ignorance and death.

I was born again.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 06:50:34 PM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2010, 08:03:53 PM »

Quote from: DeathToTheWorld
You are deluded if you think like that. Kick them all out.

Listen to the scriptures, they are what our whole faith is based upon.

If we don't listen to the scriptures, then we have no faith, we are Godless.

This is what the Apostle says about people who are not in the right belief:

Titus 3

10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.


After the 1st and 2nd admonition reject, because that person is corrupted. They are too proud to change. They think that they are right.


They are subverted, being condemned of themselves


You've been brainwashed by the whole ecumenism thing.

Snap out of it.


Heresy and false teachings work like venom or poison, it infects one part of the body, then it spreads, and spreads, until the whole body becomes destroyed.

Consider being LifeToTheWorld.  I guarantee that it is more rewarding (and effective) than rooting out "heretics".
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 08:12:18 PM by KBN1 » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2010, 08:43:36 PM »

KBN1,

I don't understand.

I don't mean death to the world (the beautiful land, Sun, Moon Stars, plants and animals) but its the passions, the demons, the injustice, the evil, that's what I really mean.


St Issac explains it in that way.


St James tells us that whoever would be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

St John also tells us to not love the world.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever."  (1 John 2:15-17)
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100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 10:21:48 PM »

Death to the World- I don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say, but you need to take a step back for your own sake. You're going to burn yourself out. The Church does not depend on you alone to save her from heresy, and it's certainly not going to revolve around internet discussions. Take a step back from the internet polemics. Don't get too carried away with the "true Orthodox" rhetoric, even if it seems to make complete sense, and don't trust your powers of reasoning so much that you get constantly absorbed in proving your correctness to everyone else. Focus some of that zeal on spiritual transformation. You are not the first person to roll in here posting lots of patristic quotes, Youtube videos, and essays against the "pan-heresy," and you certainly won't be the last. Take thou the Pill of Chill.
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 10:33:22 PM »

St Issac explains it in that way.

But he was outside the True Church in the heretical Nestorian church!!!

Are you some ecumenist?
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 11:52:21 PM »

I'm always curious to find out how long people who come off as "extremists" have been Orthodox Christians.

Depends on what is considered and extremist, and by whom.  I have known Old Calendarists that have been so all their lives.  I have been considered "extreme" by some, yet liberal by others.  Depends on the subject.  I converted 16 years ago, and the Priest who brought me into the ROCOR converted many years before that.  My current Priest in the Serbian Church that I attend makes the ROCOR look liberal, and he has been Orthodox from birth.  I suspect that he considers me to be a slacker.  The Priest at the Antiochian Church where my wife attends considers me to be an extremist, although we get along fine now.  BTW - the Antiochian Priest is also a convert who first brought me into Orthodoxy about a year or so before I joined the ROCOR.  He converted eight years previously and was part of the Ben Lamond Church when he converted.  What is the point?  I guess that I have seen such diversity in the Orthodox Church that I am not sure that "extremists" can be accurately pigeonholed.  I have also found recent converts hard to categorize as "liberal" or "conservative" since a lot has to do with what caused them to convert in the first place.   
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2010, 12:17:34 AM »

Death to the World- I don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say, but you need to take a step back for your own sake. You're going to burn yourself out. The Church does not depend on you alone to save her from heresy, and it's certainly not going to revolve around internet discussions. Take a step back from the internet polemics. Don't get too carried away with the "true Orthodox" rhetoric, even if it seems to make complete sense, and don't trust your powers of reasoning so much that you get constantly absorbed in proving your correctness to everyone else. Focus some of that zeal on spiritual transformation. You are not the first person to roll in here posting lots of patristic quotes, Youtube videos, and essays against the "pan-heresy," and you certainly won't be the last. Take thou the Pill of Chill.


Thank you, you are right, I needed that.


I'm not being sarcastic.



I'm so wretched. I need to focus on my own evil. I am too impure. I only have earthly knowledge.


Only because I have not completely surrendered to the will of God.
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100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2010, 12:41:16 AM »

It was not very long ago that I had a near death experience that completely changed my life.

I was a baptized in 1996, but I grew up as an heathen and a great sinner.

I was never taught anything about my baptism when I got baptized by the Greek Orthodox priest.

How long were you a cathecumen prior to your baptism?

I grew up in total ignorance about my faith.

I attended services and took communion without really knowing anything about my faith.


And now I know how evil ignorance is. How wicked it is.

I went to confession, bible school. But I never learned anything.

It was total form worshipper, I was a borderline idolater.


The passions had blinded me so much and the lack of good teachers is what the cause was.


I did not even know why Jesus was crucified for us, it even became repulsive to me as a child.


Ignorance is evil.



But it all changed last year.  I woke up from the slumber of ignorance and death.

I was born again.

How were you born again?  The above words state with definite certainty that your baptism by a "Greek Orthodox Priest" was insufficient and a subsequent "action" rectified the insufficiency.
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2010, 01:16:16 AM »


You are deluded if you think like that. Kick them all out.

Listen to the scriptures, they are what our whole faith is based upon.

If we don't listen to the scriptures, then we have no faith, we are Godless.

I do listen to scripture. See:

John 8:7
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Romans 12:10
Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

Romans 14:12-14
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.




If you throw anyone who disagrees with you out of the Church, you will have an empty Church. It would be like throwing a young child out on the street who disobeys his father; you are condemning him to death. Rather than throw the child out, allow him to stay at home, where the opportunity for correction and growth remain.

If you throw everyone who disagrees with you out, you are cutting them off from the life-giving Eucharist. Rather, allow them to stay in the Church where they may repent of their sins through confession, and the opportunity for growth and theosis remain.
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2010, 02:46:28 AM »


You are deluded if you think like that. Kick them all out.

Listen to the scriptures, they are what our whole faith is based upon.

If we don't listen to the scriptures, then we have no faith, we are Godless.

I do listen to scripture. See:

John 8:7
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Romans 12:10
Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;

Romans 14:12-14
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.




If you throw anyone who disagrees with you out of the Church, you will have an empty Church. It would be like throwing a young child out on the street who disobeys his father; you are condemning him to death. Rather than throw the child out, allow him to stay at home, where the opportunity for correction and growth remain.

If you throw everyone who disagrees with you out, you are cutting them off from the life-giving Eucharist. Rather, allow them to stay in the Church where they may repent of their sins through confession, and the opportunity for growth and theosis remain.


You don't understand.

Ecumenism is a pan-heresy.

Do you not hear what the Apostle is teaching:

Titus 3

 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.




The person that does not want to change his ways after the 1st or 2nd admonition is subverted, they will NOT change.

Can't you hear what Widsom is teaching us?

We must reject them after the 2nd admonition.

Whoever does not follow these words is a fool.


Tell all the heretics about that verse and then maybe they will repent and turn towards the truth.

Teach them the way the Apostles would have it to be done.



Some children are not meant to be under the true church.

Some of them are corrupt.

They are corrupt if they don't want to change their ways after the 2nd admonition, just as St Paul is telling us through the Holy Spirit.







If you watch this video, you will learn why its so wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GreekOrthodoxTV#g/c/6E49FCE98AD3E52E


And this too:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GreekOrthodoxTV#g/c/13BACD985F118D08
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 03:05:20 AM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2010, 02:59:09 AM »

It was not very long ago that I had a near death experience that completely changed my life.

I was a baptized in 1996, but I grew up as an heathen and a great sinner.

I was never taught anything about my baptism when I got baptized by the Greek Orthodox priest.

How long were you a cathecumen prior to your baptism?

I grew up in total ignorance about my faith.

I attended services and took communion without really knowing anything about my faith.


And now I know how evil ignorance is. How wicked it is.

I went to confession, bible school. But I never learned anything.

It was total form worshipper, I was a borderline idolater.


The passions had blinded me so much and the lack of good teachers is what the cause was.


I did not even know why Jesus was crucified for us, it even became repulsive to me as a child.


Ignorance is evil.



But it all changed last year.  I woke up from the slumber of ignorance and death.

I was born again.

How were you born again?  The above words state with definite certainty that your baptism by a "Greek Orthodox Priest" was insufficient and a subsequent "action" rectified the insufficiency.


What's a Catechumen? I was only 6 when I got baptized. I grew up never learning anything spiritual.


I was born again because I had a complete 180o change. Meaning that I was heading for Hell's deepest dungeons(through a drug addicted, immoral and evil life), but I was somehow miraculously put on the path of repentance(through terribly frightening events, a severe delusion which caused me to commit suicide, I was that scared, the demons played a big part in it).


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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2010, 03:09:08 AM »

You don't understand.

Ecumenism is a pan-heresy.

Do you not hear what the Apostle is teaching:

Titus 3

 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.




The person that does not want to change his ways after the 1st or 2nd admonition is subverted, they will NOT change.

Can't you hear what Widsom is teaching us?

We must reject them after the 2nd admonition.

Whoever does not follow these words is a fool.


Tell all the heretics about that verse and then maybe they will repent and turn towards the truth.

Teach them the way the Apostles would have it to be done.



Some children are not meant to be under the true church.

Some of them are corrupt.

They are corrupt if they don't want to change their ways after the 2nd admonition, just as St Paul is telling us through the Holy Spirit.







If you watch this video, you will learn why its so wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GreekOrthodoxTV#g/c/6E49FCE98AD3E52E


And this too:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GreekOrthodoxTV#g/c/13BACD985F118D08

Who said anything about ecumenism? In case you haven't noticed, we are discussing people WITHIN the Orthodox Church who have variances of opinion.

I'm not talking about allowing non-Orthodox Christians to commune with us.

Difference of opinion does not necessarily equate with sin.
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2010, 03:18:31 AM »

What's a Catechumen? I was only 6 when I got baptized. I grew up never learning anything spiritual.


I was born again because I had a complete 180o change. Meaning that I was heading for Hell's deepest dungeons(through a drug addicted, immoral and evil life), but I was somehow miraculously put on the path of repentance(through terribly frightening events, a severe delusion which caused me to commit suicide, I was that scared, the demons played a big part in it).

A Catechumen is a person who is not yet an Orthodox Christian, but is in the process of learning about the faith, and is on the path to being baptized, chrismated, and received into the Church.

Glory to God that like the Prodigal Son, you found your way home!
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2010, 03:45:43 AM »

What's a Catechumen? I was only 6 when I got baptized. I grew up never learning anything spiritual.


I was born again because I had a complete 180o change. Meaning that I was heading for Hell's deepest dungeons(through a drug addicted, immoral and evil life), but I was somehow miraculously put on the path of repentance(through terribly frightening events, a severe delusion which caused me to commit suicide, I was that scared, the demons played a big part in it).

A Catechumen is a person who is not yet an Orthodox Christian, but is in the process of learning about the faith, and is on the path to being baptized, chrismated, and received into the Church.

Glory to God that like the Prodigal Son, you found your way home!


I actually knew the question, it was rather rhetorical.

Who are you saying is within the church?

Are you calling the Monophysites 'within the church'

No, they are not, we are Eastern Orthodox (I am) and this is the only original Apostolic Orthodox church there is.


How can you be considered within the church if you do not agree with the church?

The Ethiopian Orthodox and the Copts are considered not to be in the church.
Are you talking about them?




But I pray to God you are not speaking about the Catholics.


How can you be in the Eastern Orthodox church but believe in false doctrine Huh


It must be a discussion about the Toll Houses or something like that. I think I understand what you mean then.

But the Orthodox teachings are very straightforward, why would there be such confusion after soo many years of truth and peace?



I think I know the answer....eCuMeNiSm
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2010, 04:02:55 AM »

I actually knew the question, it was rather rhetorical.

Who are you saying is within the church?

Are you calling the Monophysites 'within the church'

No, they are not, we are Eastern Orthodox (I am) and this is the only original Apostolic Orthodox church there is.


How can you be considered within the church if you do not agree with the church?

The Ethiopian Orthodox and the Copts are considered not to be in the church.
Are you talking about them?




But I pray to God you are not speaking about the Catholics.


How can you be in the Eastern Orthodox church but believe in false doctrine Huh


It must be a discussion about the Toll Houses or something like that. I think I understand what you mean then.

But the Orthodox teachings are very straightforward, why would there be such confusion after soo many years of truth and peace?



I think I know the answer....eCuMeNiSm


DTTW, read my post. Have I said anything about Catholics, Oriental Orthodox or the like? No.

This entire thread is about Eastern Orthodox Christians (ya know, those who are allowed to go up to the chalice every Sunday?) who have variances in opinion.

So before you start inferring that people are heretics and the like, I suggest you check yourself, get off your soap box, and actually READ what people are writing.
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2010, 04:30:56 AM »

It just does not make much sense to me how people could be confused about the Faith... Its so simple.



How can you be considered Eastern Orthodox and have false beliefs?

That's what I want to know.




And the answer is, *ding* *ding* *ding*   ECUMENISM



ok, I'll shut up now




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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2010, 04:36:06 AM »

It just does not make much sense to me how people could be confused about the Faith... Its so simple.



How can you be considered Eastern Orthodox and have false beliefs?

That's what I want to know.




And the answer is, *ding* *ding* *ding*   ECUMENISM



I'll shut up now






WHO is being an ecumenist?

You are making false accusations.

No one on this thread has said anything about ecumenism.

BTW, the type of "fanaticism" the thread was originally started on is exactly what you are demonstrating, and what we are talking about.

No one is talking about Catholics, Protestants, or any other group.
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2010, 04:46:10 AM »

My dear Handmaiden, DTTW is showing the classic symptoms of youthful convertitis.  Roll Eyes Grin Grin Let's hope he'll get over it.
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2010, 04:52:04 AM »

It just does not make much sense to me how people could be confused about the Faith... Its so simple.



How can you be considered Eastern Orthodox and have false beliefs?

That's what I want to know.





And the answer is, *ding* *ding* *ding*   ECUMENISM



I'll shut up now






WHO is being an ecumenist?

You are making false accusations.

No one on this thread has said anything about ecumenism.

BTW, the type of "fanaticism" the thread was originally started on is exactly what you are demonstrating, and what we are talking about.

No one is talking about Catholics, Protestants, or any other group.


Why would people be so tolerate of people who are heretics.

If it wasnt for Ecumenism, it would not be happening.

Because it has infected people to accept other people with false beliefs.

The point that I want to make is that the Eastern Orthodox holds canons that tell us who is apart of the church or not, and if people do not believe in certain things, or if they believe in certain heretical teachings, then they are not in the church.

That's the way its always been, in the Apostles especially.


If they believe in false teachings they are heretics, they are not apart of the church.

Why has it changed all of the sudden to where we will accept them?


Is it not because of Ecumenism that we accept heretics?


This discussion is going nowhere because I don't even understand who we are talking about who has false beliefs and is considered Eastern Orthodox.

I have never heard of such things.

It does not make any sense to me Huh






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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2010, 04:57:57 AM »

My dear Handmaiden, DTTW is showing the classic symptoms of youthful convertitis.  Roll Eyes Grin Grin Let's hope he'll get over it.

Convertitus Paranoidontis  to be exact  Wink

I wish I never smoked so much Marijuana, *the cops are coming, hide the stash man!* Shocked

Or watched insano conspiracy videos Shocked on Youtube *Oh no the Government, they blew up the trade centers!* Shocked

I know whats going on, ancient Chinese secret  Cool Cool Cool


I went mad watching soo many conspiracy videos.

But they are what caused my conversion believe it or not Cool

I went insane watching them, the demons helped me(the other drugs like lsd caused me to fall into a serious delusion, I thought that aliens took over the world, but they were demons which caused this).



Its a long and frightening story, if I wanted to tell it all, it would take a pretty long time to type.
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2010, 08:41:02 AM »



Why would people be so tolerate of people who are heretics.

Why should God be so tolerant of a people who constantly turn their faces away from Him and sin?

Because He loves us and wants us to know and live the Truth.

He constantly speaks to us the Truth through Jesus Christ and He is prepared to forgive us of our obstinate stupidity over and over again.  So it must be with us and the heterodox.  We are to preach the Truth with patience and love, not with anger and accusations.

Let me be clear: I am not advocating an "I'm alright, you're alright" scenario of ecclesiology; that is Ecumenism gone awry.  The fullness of the faith rests in Orthodox Church.  We can be absolutely clear about that without being a braying donkey about it.  It does far more good to speak of heresies confused people hold than to call them heretics.  Remember, you yourself spent a good deal of time actually IN the Orthodox Church and yet did not understand anything.  How unfortunate are those who have never heard of Orthodoxy in any other light than as the religion of an ethnic group?  

Best that we pray for cleaning of our own souls and show others the Light within us (cf Matthew 5:14) to illuminate their own darkness than to stumble around in our own darkness and chastise others for being blind.  We should always be watching how we say things in addition to what we are saying.
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2010, 10:27:59 AM »

What's a Catechumen? I was only 6 when I got baptized. I grew up never learning anything spiritual.

You said you were baptized by a "Greek Orthodox Priest" when you were 6?  Was your first baptism a part of a mass baptism (e.g. your family along with others who converted)?  If you didn't understand anything when you were baptized at the age of 6, what do you believe about infants and children being baptized without instruction?

BTW, a Catechumen means one who receives instruction from a cathecist in preparation for baptism.  When the person or persons "corrected" your insufficient baptism by the "Greek Orthodox Priest", did he/she/they give you a period of instruction before the "correction" took place?

I was born again because I had a complete 180o change.

Congratulations on changing your life for the better and sharing that enthusiasm with others.   Smiley

Meaning that I was heading for Hell's deepest dungeons(through a drug addicted, immoral and evil life), but I was somehow miraculously put on the path of repentance(through terribly frightening events, a severe delusion which caused me to commit suicide, I was that scared, the demons played a big part in it).

You're neither the first nor last person to overcome one's demons in life thanks to the "actions" of others who made that possible for you.  Be thankful of the gift of turning around your life knowing that salvation is not yet guaranteed.
 
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2010, 10:34:39 AM »

This discussion is going nowhere because I don't even understand who we are talking about who has false beliefs and is considered Eastern Orthodox.

Why would you say this discussion is going nowhere?

What would you define as "Greek Orthodox" when you made mention of the term "Greek Orthodox Priest?"
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2010, 10:35:57 AM »

I would like to chime in here as the resident anti-ecumenist, traditionalist priest.

First of all, we need to make a distinction between approach and position, as others have already alluded to.

Second of all, one poster remarked about taking it easy with the "true orthodox" rhetoric; I would like to point out that there is no indication that DeathToTheWorld is either a) True Orthodox or b) familiar with our rhetoric or approach.  Some True Orthodox spiritual fathers I know would tell him to get off the internet this second and stay off...so again let's be careful to not conflate issues with approach.

I recently read Volume 1 of the Philokalia all the way through, versus picking selections here and there.  What strikes me is the perfect balance I see across all the writers almost:

1) Correct your brother in love
2) Mind your own business

How can we do both? St Anthony in his "On the Character of Man" basically says "what does it matter to you if other men are wicked?"  But then in another place, it is commented how a righteous man corrects to the face, but never allows others to speak about the sinner behind his back...I am being imprecise here, but the point I think is one I made before, we should correct those whom we know and love in a personal relationship if our heart is towards helping them live with Christ; we should avoid fighting with people that are unconvertable, or whom we don't know, or whom we are angry with.  The point was made also that we should not try to "convert the whole world."  I'm sorry I don't have the book next to me right now or I would quote the relevant texts.

What I got out of reading the Philokalia is that correction is man-to-man.  It seems to me that the verse from Titus that DeathToTheWorld keeps citing is to be understood in a communal context; if you have a close-knit parish community, and you have an unrepentant heretic in your midst, it will be good for his soul to expel him after the second admonition, because his isolation might prompt him to change.  It also is necessary to protect the other sheep from being infected by his passion.

But it is not to all of us that this duty is imposed, but rather to the Church elders.  And they must act dispassionately.  Casting someone out in anger is evil; making such a tough decision for the sake of the good of the Church with no anger and only with discerning resolve is an entirely different matter.

I sense in some of the posts here a cavalier attitude towards Tradition in some posters, but I think this is in reaction to the passionate posts of DeathToTheWorld.  I would suggest to him that while a lot of what he says is true in substance, its application and approach are being diverted through his own self-will. That would definitely not be a "True Orthodox" approach.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2010, 11:28:48 AM »

What's a Catechumen? I was only 6 when I got baptized. I grew up never learning anything spiritual.

You said you were baptized by a "Greek Orthodox Priest" when you were 6?  Was your first baptism a part of a mass baptism (e.g. your family along with others who converted)?  If you didn't understand anything when you were baptized at the age of 6, what do you believe about infants and children being baptized without instruction?

BTW, a Catechumen means one who receives instruction from a cathecist in preparation for baptism.  When the person or persons "corrected" your insufficient baptism by the "Greek Orthodox Priest", did he/she/they give you a period of instruction before the "correction" took place?

I was born again because I had a complete 180o change.

Congratulations on changing your life for the better and sharing that enthusiasm with others.   Smiley

Meaning that I was heading for Hell's deepest dungeons(through a drug addicted, immoral and evil life), but I was somehow miraculously put on the path of repentance(through terribly frightening events, a severe delusion which caused me to commit suicide, I was that scared, the demons played a big part in it).

You're neither the first nor last person to overcome one's demons in life thanks to the "actions" of others who made that possible for you.  Be thankful of the gift of turning around your life knowing that salvation is not yet guaranteed.
 

It was a mass baptism, my whole family except my dad were baptised (my dad was baptized in a displaced persons camp in Austria, his family was running from Stalin Smiley) That's it. My dads name was Kalitvensev, in Russian, it means, 'man who swims up current'. Which is really what his life was, he was swimming up current because he had PTSD from vietnam and he had to drink vodka almost every night in order to cope with the stress.

My dad was Cossack, if I remember correctly, he was from the Don Cossacks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks#Don_Cossacks

He is the only reason why I am Orthodox, and my mom because she found out about his baptism.

So I am half Cossack. That is why I am Orthodox.

My mom liked to move around the churches to find out which ones were the most fit, she did not like the churches for some reason, and so I never really got settled into a church.


Everyone in my family thinks she's insane, It , but she's had a breakthrough this last year since I started reading the Philokalia, and I showed her the truth of the Theology of the Faith(which saved my life, b/c mentally I probably could not go on without finding the spiritual books that were 'lost in space' in our bookshelf, I picked up Elder Joseph the hesychast, and started reading that, and it changed my life, and then, to my surprise I found all 4 volumes of the Philokalia 'lost in space' in the bookshelf, from then on I was lit completely ablaze for Orthodoxy.

Metropolitan Jonah told me that St Maximus was way too advanced for me, 2 months ago - which is indeed true, but when I read about what St Maximus had to say about Christ and redemption it brought me great consolation to my soul)


I was in  horrible delusion before I found those books, and even after that time. I don't know what I would have done without them. I might not be alive today if I had not read St Maximus, when he talks about the body and the soul, pain and pleasure and other such things, it just filled me with such wonder and courage.




Its one thing to read these great theologians, but a completely different one to practice what they are telling us, the latter is terribly dangerous to try without a guide.

But I had so much fear in my soul that selfish ambition did not afflict  me nearly so much as it does now.


But now that I have lost fear and a good guide (a spiritual father. St Dorotheos of Gaza says that, ''With no guide to nourish and kindle his fervor, he gradually shrivles up and without realizing it, he becomes a tool of his enemies, who do whatever they want with him.''

And that is exactly what happens, without a person to help us keep the fire going in our souls, it becomes extinguished without our even realizing it.



The whole events of delusions started happening at the end of 2008


This went a bit off topic but oh well.
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2010, 11:30:27 AM »

From the words of St. Macarius and what Fr. Anastasios has shared, I am reminded of the homily of St. Isaac the Syrian on the subject of zeal, which also touches on the subject of correcting others:

------------------------------------
The Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac the Syrian
Homily Fifty-One      

On the Harm of Foolish Zeal

   A zealous man never achieves peace of mind.  But he who is a stranger to peace is a stranger to joy.  If, as it is said, peace of mind is perfect health, and zeal is opposed to peace, then the man who has a wrong zeal is ill with a grievous disease.  Though you presume, a man, to send forth your zeal against the infirmities of other men, you have expelled the health of your own soul; be assiduous, rather, in labouring for your own soul’s health.

   If you wish to heal the infirm, know that the sick are in greater need of loving care than of rebuke.  Therefore, although you don not help others, you expend labour to bring grievous illness upon yourself.  

   Zeal is not reckoned among men to be a form of wisdom, but as one of the illnesses of the soul, namely narrow-mindedness and deep ignorance.

   The beginning of divine wisdom is clemency and gentleness, which arise from greatness of soul and the bearing of the infirmities of men.  For, he says, ‘Let the strong bear the infirmities the weak,’ and ‘Restore him that has fallen in the spirit of meekness.’  The Apostle numbers peace and patience among the fruits of the Spirit.
-------------------------------------------

This is a valuable text to save to your computer, print, re-read, and frequently recall.  Personally, words such as “fanatic,” “liberal,” “conservative,” have always caused me some irritation because of the subjectivity of such claims.  Why must we always label and categorize people in this way?  Is something Orthodox or not?  In the Church, it is not enough to do or say the right thing.  A good deed and a good word must be done or given in a good way.  It is true that Roman Catholics, Copts, Armenians, and others are heretics and not Orthodox.  Is it proper for an Orthodox Christian to go up to everyone belonging to these faiths and call them heretics to their faces?  This would be an example of immoderate, inappropriate, unwise zeal that is not productive.  Or, should we buy a bumper sticker that says, “Have you punched an Arian today?  Go St. Nicholas!”  Is it true that we consider ourselves zealous because our quickness to judge others as not Orthodox, yet inwardly we are robbed of peace because we do not ourselves live up to the measuring stick applied to others?  This would be a great problem.  Or, do we in our laxity judge others as extremists and fanatical because we ourselves do not wish to humbly submit to the full demands of our Faith?  Do we also read the lives of saints and consider that they were somehow “off base” also?  This is also a bad sign.  

In general, we should not be judging and gossiping and labeling everyone as in this or that camp along the spectrum of Orthodoxy (is there really a spectrum is something either Orthodox or not?), unless we need to warn someone who might be harmed by bad teaching to which they may be exposed.  The labels, “liberal, conservative, etc.,” are very subjective.  As an example of the subjectivity of such labeling as “liberal,” “conservative,” etc., many on this forum consider Old Calendarists to be “extremists” in general.  Within Old Calendarism, the Florinites consider the Matthewites to be extremists, Matthewites and Florinites consider the Cyprianites to be crypto-Ecumenists and liberals.  Met Vitaly of ROCOR in 1986 was considered “extremist” by many in World Orthodoxy, while those who left ROCOR to establish HOCNA at that time considered him liberal and ecumenist.  Worldly people in World Orthodoxy in America may consider Elder Ephraim and his monasteries “fanatical” or “extremist,” while Old Calendarists consider his monasteries “ecumenist” and “liberal” for being on the New Calendar and part of World Orthodoxy.  So, why not leave such labeling and judging aside, strive through the Fathers and through prayer and fasting to acquire a true Orthodox understanding and a true Orthodox repentance, bring concerns about the faith of our priests and bishops to our priests and bishops, and humbly and when appropriate warn our brothers if they are going in a bad direction and if we are in a relationship with them where such warnings would be warranted?
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2010, 11:31:09 AM »

This discussion is going nowhere because I don't even understand who we are talking about who has false beliefs and is considered Eastern Orthodox.

Why would you say this discussion is going nowhere?

What would you define as "Greek Orthodox" when you made mention of the term "Greek Orthodox Priest?"


Forgive me, I meant a Eastern Orthodox Greek Priest.
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100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2010, 11:43:52 AM »

From the words of St. Macarius and what Fr. Anastasios has shared, I am reminded of the homily of St. Isaac the Syrian on the subject of zeal, which also touches on the subject of correcting others:

------------------------------------
The Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac the Syrian
Homily Fifty-One      

On the Harm of Foolish Zeal

   A zealous man never achieves peace of mind.  But he who is a stranger to peace is a stranger to joy.  If, as it is said, peace of mind is perfect health, and zeal is opposed to peace, then the man who has a wrong zeal is ill with a grievous disease.  Though you presume, a man, to send forth your zeal against the infirmities of other men, you have expelled the health of your own soul; be assiduous, rather, in labouring for your own soul’s health.

   If you wish to heal the infirm, know that the sick are in greater need of loving care than of rebuke.  Therefore, although you don not help others, you expend labour to bring grievous illness upon yourself.  

   Zeal is not reckoned among men to be a form of wisdom, but as one of the illnesses of the soul, namely narrow-mindedness and deep ignorance.

   The beginning of divine wisdom is clemency and gentleness, which arise from greatness of soul and the bearing of the infirmities of men.  For, he says, ‘Let the strong bear the infirmities the weak,’ and ‘Restore him that has fallen in the spirit of meekness.’  The Apostle numbers peace and patience among the fruits of the Spirit.
-------------------------------------------

This is a valuable text to save to your computer, print, re-read, and frequently recall.  Personally, words such as “fanatic,” “liberal,” “conservative,” have always caused me some irritation because of the subjectivity of such claims.  Why must we always label and categorize people in this way?  Is something Orthodox or not?  In the Church, it is not enough to do or say the right thing.  A good deed and a good word must be done or given in a good way.  It is true that Roman Catholics, Copts, Armenians, and others are heretics and not Orthodox.  Is it proper for an Orthodox Christian to go up to everyone belonging to these faiths and call them heretics to their faces?  This would be an example of immoderate, inappropriate, unwise zeal that is not productive.  Or, should we buy a bumper sticker that says, “Have you punched an Arian today?  Go St. Nicholas!”  Is it true that we consider ourselves zealous because our quickness to judge others as not Orthodox, yet inwardly we are robbed of peace because we do not ourselves live up to the measuring stick applied to others?  This would be a great problem.  Or, do we in our laxity judge others as extremists and fanatical because we ourselves do not wish to humbly submit to the full demands of our Faith?  Do we also read the lives of saints and consider that they were somehow “off base” also?  This is also a bad sign.  

In general, we should not be judging and gossiping and labeling everyone as in this or that camp along the spectrum of Orthodoxy (is there really a spectrum is something either Orthodox or not?), unless we need to warn someone who might be harmed by bad teaching to which they may be exposed.  The labels, “liberal, conservative, etc.,” are very subjective.  As an example of the subjectivity of such labeling as “liberal,” “conservative,” etc., many on this forum consider Old Calendarists to be “extremists” in general.  Within Old Calendarism, the Florinites consider the Matthewites to be extremists, Matthewites and Florinites consider the Cyprianites to be crypto-Ecumenists and liberals.  Met Vitaly of ROCOR in 1986 was considered “extremist” by many in World Orthodoxy, while those who left ROCOR to establish HOCNA at that time considered him liberal and ecumenist.  Worldly people in World Orthodoxy in America may consider Elder Ephraim and his monasteries “fanatical” or “extremist,” while Old Calendarists consider his monasteries “ecumenist” and “liberal” for being on the New Calendar and part of World Orthodoxy.  So, why not leave such labeling and judging aside, strive through the Fathers and through prayer and fasting to acquire a true Orthodox understanding and a true Orthodox repentance, bring concerns about the faith of our priests and bishops to our priests and bishops, and humbly and when appropriate warn our brothers if they are going in a bad direction and if we are in a relationship with them where such warnings would be warranted?





You are right, but I saw some documentary on Ecumenism that really hit a weak spot in my soul.

One that.... I'll just show you the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEC6e8N0Wfk&feature=related


You cannot tell me that this video does not freak you out.

I'm like a dog who, when someone throws a stone at, goes after the stone to bite it. St Dorotheos said that

I have the tendency to react offensively when there is something that I feel is harmful. Its a offensive-Defensive mechanism which was came from endlessly arguing with my older brother about stupid things just to try to win an arguement... Super childish stuff, I always thought I was right, but he was wrong.

That has something to do with my aggressiveness and lack of love.

And my pride of correctness, yes there is pride in being right if someone can be as egocentric as I can be, its possible.
I was, or (I pray to change) am one of those kind of people.



That documentary about Ecumenism, the 'Orthodox Awareness film' though... Man Shocked
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 11:52:07 AM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

St Gregory of Sinai
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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2010, 12:08:20 PM »

It is difficult to classify a person as a Fanatic or Conservative or moderate or liberal. For instance, I hold many conservative/Traditionalist views but also some liberal ones which I guess could make me a moderate. Huh I think that the the sermon about zeal by St. Isaac is fantastic. What really makes one a fanatic is not our views and interpretation of the canons and scriptures but tact in applying them.

I suggest for those that are interested to read the following talk given by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose titled the The Orthodox World-View http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/rose_wv.aspx

Quote
...often these basic Christian sources do not have their full effect on us, or don't really affect us at all, because we don't have the right Christian attitude towards them and towards the Christian life they are supposed to inspire. Let me now say a word here about what our attitude should be if we are to obtain real benefit from them and if they are going to be for us the beginning of a truly Orthodox world-view.

First of all, Christian spiritual food, by its very nature, is something living and nourishing; if our attitude towards it is merely academic and bookish, we will fail to get the benefit it is meant to give. Therefore, if we read Orthodox books or are interested in Orthodoxy only to gain information—or show off our knowledge to others, we are missing the point; if we learn of the commandments of God and the law of His Church merely to be "correct" and to judge the "incorrectness" of others, we are missing the point. These things must not merely affect our ideas, but must directly touch our lives and change them. In any time of great crisis in human affairs—such as the critical times right in front of us in the free world—those who place their trust in outward knowledge, in laws and canons and correctness, will be unable to stand. The strong ones then will be those whose Orthodox education has given them a feel for what is truly Christian, those whose Orthodoxy is in the heart and is capable of touching other hearts.

Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
The Orthodox World-View
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« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2010, 12:16:44 PM »

It is difficult to classify a person as a Fanatic or Conservative or moderate or liberal. For instance, I hold many conservative/Traditionalist views but also some liberal ones which I guess could make me a moderate. Huh I think that the the sermon about zeal by St. Isaac is fantastic. What really makes one a fanatic is not our views and interpretation of the canons and scriptures but tact in applying them.

I suggest for those that are interested to read the following talk given by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose titled the The Orthodox World-View http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/rose_wv.aspx

Quote
...often these basic Christian sources do not have their full effect on us, or don't really affect us at all, because we don't have the right Christian attitude towards them and towards the Christian life they are supposed to inspire. Let me now say a word here about what our attitude should be if we are to obtain real benefit from them and if they are going to be for us the beginning of a truly Orthodox world-view.

First of all, Christian spiritual food, by its very nature, is something living and nourishing; if our attitude towards it is merely academic and bookish, we will fail to get the benefit it is meant to give. Therefore, if we read Orthodox books or are interested in Orthodoxy only to gain information—or show off our knowledge to others, we are missing the point; if we learn of the commandments of God and the law of His Church merely to be "correct" and to judge the "incorrectness" of others, we are missing the point. These things must not merely affect our ideas, but must directly touch our lives and change them. In any time of great crisis in human affairs—such as the critical times right in front of us in the free world—those who place their trust in outward knowledge, in laws and canons and correctness, will be unable to stand. The strong ones then will be those whose Orthodox education has given them a feel for what is truly Christian, those whose Orthodoxy is in the heart and is capable of touching other hearts.

Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
The Orthodox World-View

My brother, you can listen to the whole talk on YouTube, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1PR76YTvwQ
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100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

St Gregory of Sinai
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« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2010, 12:25:17 PM »

BTW SS, I notice your quote of Fr Seraphim, and I think that its not in our best interest to become so obesessed about the end of times.

If you would listen to Fr Thomas Hopko on the matter, he gives us a much more basic idea about the end.



I agree that we must be aware of the signs in order to awaken people from their slumber, but even Fr Seraphim himself said that we are not make assumptions about when He (Christ) is coming back.


I have learned that Christians have always taught to be ready and to have their lamps burning so that we are not found unprepared when He(Christ) does come back.



I would interpret what Fr Seraphim says in this way, ''The end of each and every one of our lives is near, death and judgement are at the door''
Which indeed is always true.



But listen to what Fr Thomas Hopko has to say about the Apocalypse (I love him because he's so fiery with zeal)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5932925362367103900#

He gives us a very basic and well put understanding of the end of times.

I applaud this speech. Except his theology on death, Heaven and Hell. I think he's deluded on that matter.


But the evil one needs to be uncovered too, his plans cannot remain hidden.

This is the man who has uncovered all of Satan schemes and evil plans:

http://www.pantocrator.net/en/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=5

I applaud this guy even more than Hopko for his Wisdom and perception.
He's marvelous

He actually teaches us how to get through the tough times that can happen in the world of a Christian.

Like Martyrs and stuff. You know, how a Christian is supposed to be, like Christ is.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 12:35:06 PM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

St Gregory of Sinai
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