Author Topic: A Marriage Made In Heaven  (Read 9620 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,015
  • the frozen tundra of lambeau field
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2010, 08:40:22 PM »
Does anyone have any info as to whether or not we are transformed after the grave?

I mean, if your spouse was lousy to you while they were alive, will they be able to be lousy to you in heaven?

Well, I wouldn't imagine that they'd be able to treat you like crud in heaven, "in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, where there is neither sickness, nor sorrow, nor sighing".  But how does God accomplish this without changing someone's personality and violating their free-will? I don't know. This is something I have often wondered about, this free will in heaven vs. free will on earth issue, and I'm still not sure.

Offline Vzldrb

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 283
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2010, 08:47:31 PM »
Does anyone have any info as to whether or not we are transformed after the grave?

I mean, if your spouse was lousy to you while they were alive, will they be able to be lousy to you in heaven?

Well, I wouldn't imagine that they'd be able to treat you like crud in heaven, "in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, where there is neither sickness, nor sorrow, nor sighing".  But how does God accomplish this without changing someone's personality and violating their free-will? I don't know. This is something I have often wondered about, this free will in heaven vs. free will on earth issue, and I'm still not sure.
There can be free will without sin, yes?

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,015
  • the frozen tundra of lambeau field
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2010, 08:51:20 PM »
There can be free will without sin, yes?

I think so, yes. The Orthodox beliefs of many about the sinlessness of the Theotokos would seem to indicate that. But what if it's part of our personality to do something that is sinful? Does God just put the kabosh on the sinful things, and let the virtuous things through? But then wouldn't that be a violation of free-will? Or do we always do good, just because we are in heaven and influenced by the heavenlieness of it all?

Offline Vzldrb

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 283
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2010, 08:54:25 PM »
There can be free will without sin, yes?

I think so, yes. The Orthodox beliefs of many about the sinlessness of the Theotokos would seem to indicate that. But what if it's part of our personality to do something that is sinful? Does God just put the kabosh on the sinful things, and let the virtuous things through? But then wouldn't that be a violation of free-will? Or do we always do good, just because we are in heaven and influenced by the heavenlieness of it all?
I think the "sinful" is just an inversion of an already present personality trait which could be good. Viewing things in duality, of course.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,015
  • the frozen tundra of lambeau field
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2010, 08:56:09 PM »
There can be free will without sin, yes?

I think so, yes. The Orthodox beliefs of many about the sinlessness of the Theotokos would seem to indicate that. But what if it's part of our personality to do something that is sinful? Does God just put the kabosh on the sinful things, and let the virtuous things through? But then wouldn't that be a violation of free-will? Or do we always do good, just because we are in heaven and influenced by the heavenlieness of it all?
I think the "sinful" is just an inversion of an already present personality trait which could be good. Viewing things in duality, of course.

That's an interesting thought :)

Offline Vzldrb

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 283
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2010, 08:57:44 PM »
There can be free will without sin, yes?

I think so, yes. The Orthodox beliefs of many about the sinlessness of the Theotokos would seem to indicate that. But what if it's part of our personality to do something that is sinful? Does God just put the kabosh on the sinful things, and let the virtuous things through? But then wouldn't that be a violation of free-will? Or do we always do good, just because we are in heaven and influenced by the heavenlieness of it all?
I think the "sinful" is just an inversion of an already present personality trait which could be good. Viewing things in duality, of course.

That's an interesting thought :)
It came to me just now, and it could be Satan, and not God. So, take it as human invention from yours truly, the demonically infested. :P

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,799
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2010, 08:58:22 PM »
Does anyone have any info as to whether or not we are transformed after the grave?

I mean, if your spouse was lousy to you while they were alive, will they be able to be lousy to you in heaven?

If your spouse makes it to Heaven, he will be perfect by Grace as God is by Nature.  That is, IF they make it there.  If not, it won't matter.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2010, 09:24:14 PM »
Is your will truly free, or always distracted by many temptations, i.e. your own flesh, others, the world and the environment, Satan?  A truly "free" will would be free from the chains of death that lead us to sin.  That is the point of our struggle on earth.  It reminds us that we are sojourners in this world, until we become truly free in the next, where there are no more distractions or temptations.

I think then if we truly do sin under "free will", we become like Satan, falling down like a lightning so hard and so damaged, it's almost impossible to pick ourselves up, while we fall many times from temptations and slowly develop calluses.

And then of course, there is still a mysterious part to it:  "Neither eye can see, nor ear can hear, nor heart can contemplate."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline zoarthegleaner

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2010, 10:51:13 AM »
Does anyone have any info as to whether or not we are transformed after the grave?

I mean, if your spouse was lousy to you while they were alive, will they be able to be lousy to you in heaven?

Big Laugh Out Loud!

I love the way you asked that question...it smells like love; and I haven't given this idea any previous thought, but I would speculate if so it must be because it is good for our soul.  Perhaps it might be their lousiness which we will love most of all about him/her as it will be seen that all that lousiness was what got us into heaven (sweetened by the Cross).

Come let us drink a new drink...


John
Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.

Offline zoarthegleaner

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2010, 11:00:40 AM »
If there is no free will in heaven, we will be in Hell.

The paraylitic who was let down through the roof had free will...he rose up and walked at the command of Christ, that is free will.

The leper who returned and fell on his face and worshipped our Lord, that was free will.

Peter's mother-in-law got up and served the Lord and Peter and all his guests, that was free will.

To debate about free will is like squeezing juice out of a shriveled up orange, anybody care to debate me about that?

john
Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,015
  • the frozen tundra of lambeau field
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2012, 10:27:49 PM »
To debate about free will is like squeezing juice out of a shriveled up orange, anybody care to debate me about that?

I don't like oranges, especially shriveled up ones... so no :)

Offline JamesR

  • The Second Coming of Jason
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,917
  • Remember me?
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2012, 11:52:00 PM »
But how does God accomplish this without changing someone's personality and violating their free-will? I don't know. This is something I have often wondered about, this free will in heaven vs. free will on earth issue, and I'm still not sure.

My thoughts are that perhaps we do still possess free-will in Heaven, HOWEVER, we will be at such a heavenly, redeemed level that none of us would use our free-will for evil--like nagging someone for example. And those who would use their free-will in Heaven for evil would probably not ever be in Heaven in the first place.

Offline HabteSelassie

  • Ises and I-ity
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,314
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2012, 02:32:11 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Sorry if I am beating a dead horse on this thread resurrection, but I had some thoughts which are two years late but don't fit into our new thread about Marriage..

1) Are marriages really made in heaven? Does someone have a person that they are supposed to be with according to God's plan?
I'm not sure how credible I am on this subject, since I've never been married, but this idea that there's one special someone that God has set aside for me seems to me to be nothing more than a nice, romantic notion with no basis in reality or in Church doctrine.

What about the idea of Marriage being Sacramental? We know that God calls us to the Divine Mysteries, they aren't entirely a matter of our free-will, rather our free response to God's invitation.  In that context, couldn't we view Marriage as being similar? I'm not talking about full out Calvinist predestination, however surely God plays something in the role of match-maker for truly Orthodox marriages right? I am not trying to dig into that heavily romanticized notion of true love and soul mate and all that, marriage is so much more complicated than that and truly those romantic marriages sometimes tend to last less duration than more pragmatic marriages because folks are too idealistic in their approach, and tend to have unrealistic expectations of their partnership.  However and again, considering that God invites us to participate in His Divine Mysteries, doesn't God then play some role in forming our Marriages?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Indocern

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,351
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2016, 03:10:17 PM »
"I have given her in marriage to seven men, all of whom were kinsmen of ours, and all died on the very night they approached her. But now, son, eat and drink. I am sure the Lord will look after you both." Tobiah answered, "I will eat or drink nothing until you set aside what belongs to me." Raguel said to him: "I will do it. She is yours according to the decree of the Book of Moses. Your marriage to her has been decided in heaven! Take your kinswoman; from now on you are her love, and she is your beloved. She is yours today and ever after." - Tob. 7:11

I have two questions that I'm curious about...

1) Are marriages really made in heaven? Does someone have a person that they are supposed to be with according to God's plan?

2) Does the marriage bond, in some fashion, stay for eternity?

I'm assuming that a passage like Matt. 22:23-32 is going to come into play in this conversation, but to what extent? to what end?

"The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

This sentence "Your marriage to her has been decided in heaven!" doesn't exist in my Bible.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,295
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2016, 03:22:00 PM »
Is the Book of Tobit in your Bible?
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Indocern

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,351
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2016, 03:23:42 PM »
Is the Book of Tobit in your Bible?

Yes, it is Orthodox Bible.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:45:21 PM by Indocern »

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,295
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2016, 03:28:38 PM »
Hmm, I wonder if this is a textual variant between the Vulgate and Septuagint versions.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Indocern

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,351
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2016, 03:45:01 PM »
Hmm, I wonder if this is a textual variant between the Vulgate and Septuagint versions.

It says that this book of Tobit in my Bible is translated from Greek.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:46:05 PM by Indocern »

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2016, 05:34:13 PM »
It could be a different chapter and verse, as not every deuteroncanon is numbered similarly
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Ainnir

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,768
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2016, 09:37:34 PM »
From the Coptic perspective, the passage in Matthew was in answer to those who use marriage not in the same sense as the Christian marriage, for marriage was mostly property rights.  In Christian marriage (at least in the Coptic Church) man and woman resembles the eternal relationship of Christ and the Church.  If man or woman were to go through a second marriage by the Church, there is no crowning ceremony, but merely a consecration of the unity between man and woman.

But for those who marry the first time, there is a crowning ceremony, and the husband puts on the priestly robe as the priest of the house "Church" he is to be in charge of, and the charge of the eternal unity (in Coptic marriages, there is no "until death do us part").  So it's as if there was an ordination, a consecration of a Church, and a heavenly marriage ceremony all in one service.  Therefore, Coptic marriages are a powerful concept, and it's not mere marriage.  You are united here and in heaven.  For there is no death in the beliefs of the Coptic Church, but a departure.

Just as a priest is a priest forever even in heaven, so is the married married forever.

This is beautiful. 
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: A Marriage Made In Heaven
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2016, 10:04:19 PM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.