Author Topic: Protestants and Sacramentals  (Read 4651 times)

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Protestants and Sacramentals
« on: January 19, 2004, 02:14:58 AM »
It's past one in the morning here, and I'm watching what looks like a "local" Pentecostal preacher/healer do his public access TV thing.  Lots of tongues, lots of healing, lots of preaching, etc., etc., etc.  But what I'm struck at is that, while in my experience many Protestants have a problem with the venerating of icons or relics, the use of prayer beads, the wearing of crosses and medals, and the use of other sacramentals, at least some of them, usually of the type I just described (at least as far as I've observed) are making them up on their own, and it's perfectly acceptable for them.  For instance, the same guy doing the tongue-speaking, healing, and preaching was also offering a "Green Prosperity Handkerchief", with a graphic on the screen complete with Biblical reference to the use of sanctified handkerchiefs by Saint Paul.  Also offered was a type of bracelet with coloured stones and a cross that looked kinda like a rosary...for a love gift of thirty-three dollars ($33).  It is not only the use of these objects in prayer among them that interests me, but the teaching this particular individual was preaching: namely (if I've understood it correctly), that sometimes people need to receive blessings from God through the use of a material object like a prayer cloth as a point of divine power, an object that mediates God's grace to the individual based on the individual's faith, and that God sometimes wills it this way.  While this TV show reminded me of my observations, this is definitely not the first time I've seen this, and it seems "prayer cloths" and other types of "sacramentals" are becoming more popular among those who would at the same time question/mock their use among Catholics (and, by extension, Orthodox).  

What's up with this trend?
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Offline Elisha

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2004, 02:47:16 AM »
Never really noticed this (especially since I can usually not stand more than a few minutes of a televangelist show), but it sounds interesting.  They sound like hypocrites to me (in the respect that they condemn icons, etc.)

Offline jmell

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2004, 03:47:31 AM »
All I ever see them offering is a free tape or book, with a minimum donation of course!

Offline Ebor

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2004, 06:30:10 PM »
I would submit that many of the televangelist types don't know anything about icons and that they are not so much "hypocritical" as unknowing.  I postulate that they have some ideas about the RC's and statues that, if they know about EO and icons at all, slops over east.  Not understanding the point of them, if they see someone kissing an icon, the link is "bowing to idols... bad"  However, while both statues and icons show people, the napkins, vials of water, etc do not and (remember the passage in NT about people bringing cloths to St. Paul) that it is in the Bible.  

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2004, 10:34:49 AM »
I am always amused by televangelists and such that suddenly discover that there is benefit to ministers wearing distinctive dress and being able to be recognized as a minster by how you dress so they end up dressing like priests - ALMOST, but not quite . . . .Benny comes to mind with his suits . . . .
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Offline Elisha

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2004, 12:24:57 PM »

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2004, 12:39:52 PM »
Benny Hinn amuses me.  I watch him when I can by choice, he's too funny.  Did you guys know he was originally Greek Orthodox (and an old calendarist to boot...Patriarchate of Jerusalem)?
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2004, 12:45:54 PM »
Benny Hinn amuses me.  I watch him when I can by choice, he's too funny.  Did you guys know he was originally Greek Orthodox (and an old calendarist to boot...Patriarchate of Jerusalem)?

That's what I've heard, too.

Now he's a Lucre-an.
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Offline PhosZoe

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2004, 12:57:19 PM »
Benny Hinn amuses me.  I watch him when I can by choice, he's too funny.  Did you guys know he was originally Greek Orthodox (and an old calendarist to boot...Patriarchate of Jerusalem)?

No Way! I was not aware of that!  

Benny Hinn is great entertainment. I also love watching Paul and Jan Crouch on TBN.

It's all so scary and interesting all at the same time.



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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2004, 02:00:30 PM »
AH Jan . . . that hair.  . . . How am I supposed to take the message of Christ seriously from her mouth?

I am always baffled that people who cannot be honest about who they are - and have to hide under wigs and toups - expect me to take what they are saying to be truthful.
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Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2004, 02:27:57 PM »
When I think of evangelical protestantism, I think of Focus on the Family, which is actually quite good. I listen to it often, even though I reject much of their beliefs. TBN, et al, are out for the money, but Focus on the Family actually provides services in gratitude for their donations.

That said, I'm stickin' with apostolic Christianity.

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2004, 04:37:14 PM »
I realize this is dated, but she sponsored a seminar on Christian Liposuction. http://cultlink.com/ar/liposuction.htm.

I've been trying to figure out how "Christian" and "liposuction" ended up in the same sentence.

It's a wonder why secular America thinks "christian" = idiot

Again, The hair! That's why I started watching!  ;D

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2004, 07:24:12 PM »
How about Jan's clothing--between the hair, all the makeup, and the clothing--she can make Tammy Faye look  modest!

Well, tele-evangelists can afford things that a pastor of a small local church could never have--like a home that costs millions of dollars.  Of course, some of the pastors of mega-churches might be able to afford to buy an expensive house.  So much for Christ's words to the rich young ruler to sell all that he had and then giving the money to the poor.  By the way, I was looking in the yellow pages the other day and the ad for a Foursquare Gospel church here in town announces in its ad that "Prosperity is God's will for His people!".  I was thinking to myself, "that's not what I understand from the Bible, especially the New Testament."  The ad listed about 5 things that the believe in and teach, and I couldn't agree with but one of them.  Of course, one of the things that they teach (according to the ad) is that if you have the Holy Ghost, you will speak in tongues.

Offline Strobert

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2004, 12:37:31 AM »
Benny Hinn?  Benny Hill?  I keep getting those guys mixed up.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2004, 12:42:01 AM »
Benny Hinn?  Benny Hill?  I keep getting those guys mixed up.

Oh, man!

I loved Benny Hill!

Now there was a truly funny man.



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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2004, 05:44:15 AM »
Nooooooooo!

There's one export we were glad to get rid of.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2004, 12:53:34 PM »
Nooooooooo!

There's one export we were glad to get rid of.

Oh, come on!

Benny Hill was great.

My father and I spent many an evening laughing until the tears rolled down our cheeks.

May God have mercy on Benny's soul (and ours)!

I'm sure there must be an icon of him in some Anglican Church somewhere (they've got everyone else's).  ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 12:58:31 PM by Linus7 »
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2004, 01:30:34 PM »
I always get a kick out of feminists who attack Benny Hill as sexist.  Anyone with eyes can see that he poked fun at MEN not at women.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2004, 03:29:39 PM »
Benny Hill was utter, utter rubbish. I think it must say something about the general level of US comedy :)

I'd rather watch an hour of Benny Hinn!!!!!!
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2004, 03:31:19 PM »
You have to remember that most of the things the British find amusing, Peter, don't translate well to American audiences.

Benny Hill, however, was outright risque slapstick.

My favorite part was when he would repeatedly slap the old bald man's head.  That cracked me up when I was 7 and still cracks me up today.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2004, 04:21:09 PM »
The US comedy I find amusing tends to be the more gritty stuff like Malcolm in the Middle, Roseanne etc. I don't like the programmes that are all based on the 'normal' family trying to survive on a couple of million a year. That's why I like the Simpsons as well.

Don't you like Black Adder, Fawlty Towers, Dad's Army. They're the classics. There are some good modern ones but they are a bit too sexually explicit in language, but still with some brilliant bits in them.
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2004, 04:29:19 PM »
The BlackAdder series is a favorite and all four series usually get watched at least once every other month, and the BlackAdder Christmas Carol gets viewed every holiday season.

I'm a big fan of the Young Ones, too.

However, most Americans won't get alot of the jokes, as they're very British and geared towards British cultural mores and pecularities.  Fawlty Towers generally "works" because of the slapstick nature of much of Cleese's comedy in that series.  However, things like the "TV Detector Man" from the Young Ones episode "Bomb" just don't compute to most Americans, who have never had to pay for a TV license nor have any idea what it is.  

The more silly it is, and the more visual, the better it will work in the States, as far as British comedy goes.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2004, 04:36:24 PM »
The more silly it is, and the more visual, the better it will work in the States, as far as British comedy goes.

Interesting. That's pretty much the case with my youngest child  ;)
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2004, 04:45:22 PM »
Just like I've been told I'm acting like an old man for watching "Last of the Summer Wine" all the time.

My two best friends and I are on a collision course for ending up like those three, with me being Foggy.
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2004, 04:47:27 PM »
Ahhhh...another good show. Part of early Sunday Evenings for most of my life, it seems.

At least you're not being set up for the part of Compo
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2004, 04:51:28 PM »
Compo would be my best friend Taylor, who we also call "Pigpen" and who always seems to be chasing some woman around.  My friend Will is a perfect Cleggy, who gets caught in the middle of everything.

It really is uncanny how we three fit right in those roles. :)
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2004, 04:55:47 PM »
Man, I really detest the idea that the British are somehow superior in culture and therefore more refined in taste than Americans. And I especially detest the apparent willingness of so many Americans to acquiesce to that idea.

I have known too many Brits to buy that one.

I like what I like.

Benny Hill was downright funny.

Comedy, like so many other forms of entertainment, is a matter of taste.

I like a variety of comedic forms.

Benny Hill was not popular because the people who enjoyed him were stupid or inferior.

He was popular because he was funny.
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2004, 05:00:05 PM »
Benny Hill was absolute rubbish

I find it completely appropriate that so many Americans like him.

Thank God that there are some who have real taste and appreciate the British sense of humour.

Now a really classy form of the more slapstick and old school variety comedy is Morecambe and Wise, and the Two Ronnies.

But Benny Hill.....never.
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2004, 05:04:13 PM »
Man, I really detest the idea that the British are somehow superior in culture and therefore more refined in taste than Americans. And I especially detest the apparent willingness of so many Americans to acquiesce to that idea.

I have known too many Brits to buy that one.

I like what I like.

Benny Hill was downright funny.

Comedy, like so many other forms of entertainment, is a matter of taste.

I like a variety of comedic forms.

Benny Hill was not popular because the people who enjoyed him were stupid or inferior.

He was popular because he was funny.


Linus,

Peace, brother!  I agree with you.  Benny Hill was hilarious.  But you cannot deny the fact that most British comedy, the kind that the Brits consider to be "high class" goes over the heads of most Americans.  

However, its not because its superior, but because it's very culture specific.  Very few Americans are going to understand jokes about Marmite or Guy Fawkes.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2004, 05:07:50 PM »
Benny Hill was absolute rubbish

I find it completely appropriate that so many Americans like him.

Thank God that there are some who have real taste and appreciate the British sense of humour.

Now a really classy form of the more slapstick and old school variety comedy is Morecambe and Wise, and the Two Ronnies.

But Benny Hill.....never.

Your opinion, one not shared by millions of your own countrymen, as well as countless others.

Quote
peterfarrington: I find it completely appropriate that so many Americans like him.

I think you should keep such disparaging remarks about Americans to yourself.

I am generally very pro-UK, but you are doing your level best to change that.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2004, 05:10:31 PM »
Chill out for goodness sake. It was you who said

Quote
Man, I really detest the idea that the British are somehow superior in culture and therefore more refined in taste than Americans. And I especially detest the apparent willingness of so many Americans to acquiesce to that idea.

I think you need to learn to take a bit more ribbing.

[humour]
That's another thing us Europeans don't like about many Americans.
[/humour]
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2004, 05:14:12 PM »
Chill out for goodness sake. It was you who saidI think you need to learn to take a bit more ribbing.

[humour]
That's another thing us Europeans don't like about many Americans.
[/humour]

I said I don't like the idea that the British are superior to Americans. I did not then turn around and assert that Americans are superior to the British.

If what you wrote was ribbing, I guess I missed it.

Chalk it up to my lowly American sense of humor.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 05:14:38 PM by Linus7 »
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2004, 05:28:45 PM »
I said I don't like the idea that the British are superior to Americans. I did not then turn around and assert that Americans are superior to the British.

If what you wrote was ribbing, I guess I missed it.

Chalk it up to my lowly American sense of humor.

Chill out.
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2004, 07:56:26 PM »
The US comedy I find amusing tends to be the more gritty stuff like Malcolm in the Middle, Roseanne etc. I don't like the programmes that are all based on the 'normal' family trying to survive on a couple of million a year. That's why I like the Simpsons as well.

Don't you like Black Adder, Fawlty Towers, Dad's Army. They're the classics. There are some good modern ones but they are a bit too sexually explicit in language, but still with some brilliant bits in them.

Malcom RULES!!  I loved the first episonde - from the moment I saw it, I knew I could relate.  It was my family they were portaying . . . .  ALSO very good - Futurama, The Nanny, and Reno 911.

The best "britcoms" are: Are you being served, You rang m'Lord, black adder, Monty Python, 'Ello 'Ello ( a perfect portrayal of the french), Keeping up Appearances, Only fools and horses . . . .
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2004, 08:01:57 PM »
OH and YES PRIME MINISTER!!  TOO FUNNY that one.  A perfect indictment of the British parliamentary system.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2004, 09:28:37 PM »
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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2004, 10:44:37 PM »
I get BBC America, and I love that channel (I get digital cable so that I can get it).  Br. Max, I love "Keeping Up Appearances", "Allo, Allo", "Are You Being Served?", "One Foot in the Grave", and "Mr. Bean".    There's another one that I really liked that I can't remember the title of.  It took place in a retirement community and the main characters were named Diana and Tom, and they were next door neighbors.  They were very independent and always causing trouble for the administrator of the community.  Do any of you remember that series and what the title of it was?

I also have to admit that I love "Ground Force" (Tuesday nights I'm parked right in front of the TV to watch that),  "Changing Rooms", and "Cash in the Attic".  I wish that BBC American would start showing the old "Antiques Roadshow" programs again.  I like the American version of the show, but I prefer the British version.  They get much older items on the show.   I also wish they would start showing the program "Casualty" again because I enjoyed that show also.


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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2004, 11:08:53 PM »
Thank you, Vicki.  The way my memory is these days, maybe I need to be in that retirement community!

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Re:Protestants and Sacramentals
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2004, 12:03:11 AM »
THE BEST program on BBC is of course - EAST ENDERS.
"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media