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Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill: No Surrender of Conciliarity  (Read 3765 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2012, 11:29:09 AM »

Easy now partner!!! On the one hand you object to overly bold statements regarding the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, and on the other, you make an equally bold statement about the GOARCH. I am not Greek nor am I in the GOARCH but I just cannot agree with your implication that the Greek Archdiocese in America is somehow deficient as compared to other Greek Churches abroad.

I happen to think that most human organizations have faults; at the very least, over time they become ossified and develop bad habits. Now, it is absolutely true that at different points of time, one could say that Church X was more corrupt (etc..) than Church Y, or, a better Orthodox church than the other. However, the temporary aberrations or fidelities do not permanently brand them. How about agreeing that overly broad statements and claims are all equally bad?

I did not say anything about the GOARCH being deficient, nor did I make any references to its holilness. However, it is a fact that many of the things often cited on this site against the EP - organs, clean shaven priests, dog collars, polyphonic music, little girls serving the altar, no confession, etc. - are things that are for the most part unheard of in Greek parishes outside of America. Whether these things are important or not are another issue, but I think I made a valid observation, not a broad generalisation, when I said much of what is levelled against the Greeks on this board is based on the GOARCH in America,  not Greek churches in general. Again, as I said in my post, I do not deny the countless problems in the EP, but object to the dishonest way in which the Russian Church is presented as the bastion of Orthodox tradition.

Here we go, round and around.....

I am not Greek, but I will try to defend my friends as best I can with respect to 'their ways.'

1. Confession: We have heard over the years on this board and elsewhere that it is true that it was not the common practice for Greek priests to all have the ability to hear confessions. This was due to the discrepancy in training of priests in the historically Greek lands. Some were trained to be 'liturgists', while others received a deeper education. Hence the practice of infrequent confessions arose and the concept of having a 'spiritual father' - often a hieromonk ' - to whom one went for confession. In recent years, as American priests are fully educated at seminary, it is more common for pastors to hear confessions. Old habits, however, even when 'wrong', often become mixed up in people's minds as 'venerable traditions' and are hard to change. Give the priests and bishops of GOARCH a break on this one.

2. 'Dog Collars'  and no beards: First, this is offensive to many to call clerical collars as such. Secondly, many do not regard this as a 'big deal'. Beards vs. beardless has been debated over and over again here and one can find beardless clerics in many jurisdictions. I will challenge ANYONE who will tell me that a beardless priest is somehow less of a priest than one with a beard or less holy or less spiritual man. And frankly, you should hope such a challenge is online and not in person as the discussion would likely get quite animated (not physical though..........)

3. 'Girl Altar Servers' - really? Where, when and is this really a 'norm'? I don't think so and any isolated examples ought to be brought to the attention of the Bishop of the Metropolis or Archbishop Demetrios himself.

4. 'Polyphonic' Music: What do you mean by this? Is 'pure Byzantine chant' the only form of liturgical music you find acceptable in the Orthodox Church? Some musical scholars include 'isons' as a form of polyphony. Is Russian choral music 'deficient' as well?  How do you define the term? For what it is worth, Greeks aren't the only ones with this 'problem' in their church music. Here are links to a few albums of Orthodox Polyphonic music from  the Hellenic,the Arab and the Slavic spheres. http://www.rhapsody.com/album/Alb.25624480  and http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7886908

I think that the author of this piece makes a compelling argument which supports traditional chant singing along with respectful choral music composed for Orthodox usage. While he is Greek, I would make the same arguments in support of prostopenije, Kievan chant and mixed choral usage by the Slavs. http://www.newbyz.org/chantandpolyphony.pdf

5. Organs: Well, you got me there! That I do not understand and that is unique to the new world.

Just my thoughts....I would like to hear from Fr. George or another Greek priest on this issue for his point of view.



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« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2012, 11:53:55 AM »

I am not Greek, but I will try to defend my friends as best I can with respect to 'their ways.'

I don't really understand what you are defending or why.  Orthodox11 and I are the ones defending the EP pointing out that aberrant practices aren't the norm across the board and are rather isolated.  It is a certain clique here that takes baffling practices from the GOA as the norm and uses them as justification for condemning the EP - Orthodox11 and I are not doing that.  We're both simply stating that other EP jurisdictions are considerably more normal in their practice.   
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« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2012, 11:57:04 AM »

I am not Greek, but I will try to defend my friends as best I can with respect to 'their ways.'

I don't really understand what you are defending or why.  Orthodox11 and I are the ones defending the EP pointing out that aberrant practices aren't the norm across the board and are rather isolated.  It is a certain clique here that takes baffling practices from the GOA as the norm and uses them as justification for condemning the EP - Orthodox11 and I are not doing that.  We're both simply stating that other EP jurisdictions are considerably more normal in their practice.   


I believe what podkarpatska is defending is GOA- basically saying that their practices aren't all as baffling as all that, save for the organs.
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« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2012, 11:58:58 AM »

I am not Greek, but I will try to defend my friends as best I can with respect to 'their ways.'

I don't really understand what you are defending or why.  Orthodox11 and I are the ones defending the EP pointing out that aberrant practices aren't the norm across the board and are rather isolated.  It is a certain clique here that takes baffling practices from the GOA as the norm and uses them as justification for condemning the EP - Orthodox11 and I are not doing that.  We're both simply stating that other EP jurisdictions are considerably more normal in their practice.   


I believe what podkarpatska is defending is GOA- basically saying that their practices aren't all as baffling as all that, save for the organs.

I agree that you can find all of them in other jurisdictions, but something about my experiences in the GOA...they just seem to be more distilled and present all at once.  In other places I've seen a thing or two off here and there, not all of them at once. 
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« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2012, 12:12:56 PM »

I am not Greek, but I will try to defend my friends as best I can with respect to 'their ways.'

I don't really understand what you are defending or why.  Orthodox11 and I are the ones defending the EP pointing out that aberrant practices aren't the norm across the board and are rather isolated.  It is a certain clique here that takes baffling practices from the GOA as the norm and uses them as justification for condemning the EP - Orthodox11 and I are not doing that.  We're both simply stating that other EP jurisdictions are considerably more normal in their practice.   


I believe what podkarpatska is defending is GOA- basically saying that their practices aren't all as baffling as all that, save for the organs.

I agree that you can find all of them in other jurisdictions, but something about my experiences in the GOA...they just seem to be more distilled and present all at once.  In other places I've seen a thing or two off here and there, not all of them at once. 

I was pointing out things not so much in response to you guys, but for the benefit of others....Actually, I suspect that one's experiences within GOA depend on where you've been and the parish. After all you can travel across my own Diocese and see a wide spectrum ranging from really traditionalist mission parishes to older parishes dominated by small 't' issues. I promise to take a deep breath and step back. Frankly, our diversity, which seems large to those of us within the Church - doesn't seem so large to outsiders looking in at us and in that we should be thankful!
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« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2012, 05:44:13 PM »

Easy now partner!!! On the one hand you object to overly bold statements regarding the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, and on the other, you make an equally bold statement about the GOARCH. I am not Greek nor am I in the GOARCH but I just cannot agree with your implication that the Greek Archdiocese in America is somehow deficient as compared to other Greek Churches abroad.

I happen to think that most human organizations have faults; at the very least, over time they become ossified and develop bad habits. Now, it is absolutely true that at different points of time, one could say that Church X was more corrupt (etc..) than Church Y, or, a better Orthodox church than the other. However, the temporary aberrations or fidelities do not permanently brand them. How about agreeing that overly broad statements and claims are all equally bad?

I did not say anything about the GOARCH being deficient, nor did I make any references to its holilness. However, it is a fact that many of the things often cited on this site against the EP - organs, clean shaven priests, dog collars, polyphonic music, little girls serving the altar, no confession, etc. - are things that are for the most part unheard of in Greek parishes outside of America. Whether these things are important or not are another issue, but I think I made a valid observation, not a broad generalisation, when I said much of what is levelled against the Greeks on this board is based on the GOARCH in America,  not Greek churches in general. Again, as I said in my post, I do not deny the countless problems in the EP, but object to the dishonest way in which the Russian Church is presented as the bastion of Orthodox tradition.

Are you sure that you are not confusing GOARCH with the Antiochians as they also refer to themselves as Greek Antiochians since they were under the EP for a while? Archbishop JOSEPH wears Roman collars and cleric suits with red trims that make him look like a Roman Catholic Monsignor or Bishop, and then he wears jogging suits at home in his chancery office, even when he has visitors. I think that Antiochian Priests have been forbidden from wearing cassocks outside of the church grounds at Primate PHILIP's orders.

Most likely, Archbishop JOSEPH will take Metropolitan PHILIP's place or even become the next Antiochian Patriarch. Lord have mercy. Antiochians do not generally use organs, but they have been known to have string quartets or harps at weddings. Their "pews" often have thick pads. Many Antiochian priests are clean shaven, or almost entirely clean shaven. Many only shave outside of Lenten times, but sport the after 5 look during Lenten times, and promptly shave just before the Pascha service. Confession seems to be no longer encouraged; Paraclesis is almost non-existent; choirs sing in 4-part harmony or even 6-part harmony; and in the Middle East, yes, there are altar girls, as there are in the Melkite Church. A little ecumenism?
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« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2012, 06:57:09 PM »

Easy now partner!!! On the one hand you object to overly bold statements regarding the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, and on the other, you make an equally bold statement about the GOARCH. I am not Greek nor am I in the GOARCH but I just cannot agree with your implication that the Greek Archdiocese in America is somehow deficient as compared to other Greek Churches abroad.

I happen to think that most human organizations have faults; at the very least, over time they become ossified and develop bad habits. Now, it is absolutely true that at different points of time, one could say that Church X was more corrupt (etc..) than Church Y, or, a better Orthodox church than the other. However, the temporary aberrations or fidelities do not permanently brand them. How about agreeing that overly broad statements and claims are all equally bad?

I did not say anything about the GOARCH being deficient, nor did I make any references to its holilness. However, it is a fact that many of the things often cited on this site against the EP - organs, clean shaven priests, dog collars, polyphonic music, little girls serving the altar, no confession, etc. - are things that are for the most part unheard of in Greek parishes outside of America. Whether these things are important or not are another issue, but I think I made a valid observation, not a broad generalisation, when I said much of what is levelled against the Greeks on this board is based on the GOARCH in America,  not Greek churches in general. Again, as I said in my post, I do not deny the countless problems in the EP, but object to the dishonest way in which the Russian Church is presented as the bastion of Orthodox tradition.

Are you sure that you are not confusing GOARCH with the Antiochians as they also refer to themselves as Greek Antiochians since they were under the EP for a while? Archbishop JOSEPH wears Roman collars and cleric suits with red trims that make him look like a Roman Catholic Monsignor or Bishop, and then he wears jogging suits at home in his chancery office, even when he has visitors. I think that Antiochian Priests have been forbidden from wearing cassocks outside of the church grounds at Primate PHILIP's orders.

Most likely, Archbishop JOSEPH will take Metropolitan PHILIP's place or even become the next Antiochian Patriarch. Lord have mercy. Antiochians do not generally use organs, but they have been known to have string quartets or harps at weddings. Their "pews" often have thick pads. Many Antiochian priests are clean shaven, or almost entirely clean shaven. Many only shave outside of Lenten times, but sport the after 5 look during Lenten times, and promptly shave just before the Pascha service. Confession seems to be no longer encouraged; Paraclesis is almost non-existent; choirs sing in 4-part harmony or even 6-part harmony; and in the Middle East, yes, there are altar girls, as there are in the Melkite Church. A little ecumenism?

If beards and pews, or lack of either or both - keep anyone away from a particular church or allow them to prejudge it , that is both their loss as well as yours.

As for choirs and harmony  - look no further than to Holy Mother Russia and the official Youtube website of the Patriarch of Moscow. Just listen to the Christmas liturgy from Moscow...ancient chant melodies and four part Russian choral compositions.  Don't judge a book by its cover!
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« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2012, 07:01:18 PM »

Easy now partner!!! On the one hand you object to overly bold statements regarding the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, and on the other, you make an equally bold statement about the GOARCH. I am not Greek nor am I in the GOARCH but I just cannot agree with your implication that the Greek Archdiocese in America is somehow deficient as compared to other Greek Churches abroad.

I happen to think that most human organizations have faults; at the very least, over time they become ossified and develop bad habits. Now, it is absolutely true that at different points of time, one could say that Church X was more corrupt (etc..) than Church Y, or, a better Orthodox church than the other. However, the temporary aberrations or fidelities do not permanently brand them. How about agreeing that overly broad statements and claims are all equally bad?

I did not say anything about the GOARCH being deficient, nor did I make any references to its holilness. However, it is a fact that many of the things often cited on this site against the EP - organs, clean shaven priests, dog collars, polyphonic music, little girls serving the altar, no confession, etc. - are things that are for the most part unheard of in Greek parishes outside of America. Whether these things are important or not are another issue, but I think I made a valid observation, not a broad generalisation, when I said much of what is levelled against the Greeks on this board is based on the GOARCH in America,  not Greek churches in general. Again, as I said in my post, I do not deny the countless problems in the EP, but object to the dishonest way in which the Russian Church is presented as the bastion of Orthodox tradition.

Are you sure that you are not confusing GOARCH with the Antiochians as they also refer to themselves as Greek Antiochians since they were under the EP for a while? Archbishop JOSEPH wears Roman collars and cleric suits with red trims that make him look like a Roman Catholic Monsignor or Bishop, and then he wears jogging suits at home in his chancery office, even when he has visitors. I think that Antiochian Priests have been forbidden from wearing cassocks outside of the church grounds at Primate PHILIP's orders.

Most likely, Archbishop JOSEPH will take Metropolitan PHILIP's place or even become the next Antiochian Patriarch. Lord have mercy. Antiochians do not generally use organs, but they have been known to have string quartets or harps at weddings. Their "pews" often have thick pads. Many Antiochian priests are clean shaven, or almost entirely clean shaven. Many only shave outside of Lenten times, but sport the after 5 look during Lenten times, and promptly shave just before the Pascha service. Confession seems to be no longer encouraged; Paraclesis is almost non-existent; choirs sing in 4-part harmony or even 6-part harmony; and in the Middle East, yes, there are altar girls, as there are in the Melkite Church. A little ecumenism?

If beards and pews, or lack of either or both - keep anyone away from a particular church or allow them to prejudge it , that is both their loss as well as yours.

As for choirs and harmony  - look no further than to Holy Mother Russia and the official Youtube website of the Patriarch of Moscow. Just listen to the Christmas liturgy from Moscow...ancient chant melodies and four part Russian choral compositions.  Don't judge a book by its cover!

These externals (pews, cushions, clean shaven faces) do not keep me away from a church.
I was just pointing out that the Greeks and the Antiochians share similar new traditions.
Lack of devotion to the Theotokos does troubles me.
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« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2012, 07:51:30 PM »

Easy now partner!!! On the one hand you object to overly bold statements regarding the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, and on the other, you make an equally bold statement about the GOARCH. I am not Greek nor am I in the GOARCH but I just cannot agree with your implication that the Greek Archdiocese in America is somehow deficient as compared to other Greek Churches abroad.

I happen to think that most human organizations have faults; at the very least, over time they become ossified and develop bad habits. Now, it is absolutely true that at different points of time, one could say that Church X was more corrupt (etc..) than Church Y, or, a better Orthodox church than the other. However, the temporary aberrations or fidelities do not permanently brand them. How about agreeing that overly broad statements and claims are all equally bad?

I did not say anything about the GOARCH being deficient, nor did I make any references to its holilness. However, it is a fact that many of the things often cited on this site against the EP - organs, clean shaven priests, dog collars, polyphonic music, little girls serving the altar, no confession, etc. - are things that are for the most part unheard of in Greek parishes outside of America. Whether these things are important or not are another issue, but I think I made a valid observation, not a broad generalisation, when I said much of what is levelled against the Greeks on this board is based on the GOARCH in America,  not Greek churches in general. Again, as I said in my post, I do not deny the countless problems in the EP, but object to the dishonest way in which the Russian Church is presented as the bastion of Orthodox tradition.

Are you sure that you are not confusing GOARCH with the Antiochians as they also refer to themselves as Greek Antiochians since they were under the EP for a while? Archbishop JOSEPH wears Roman collars and cleric suits with red trims that make him look like a Roman Catholic Monsignor or Bishop, and then he wears jogging suits at home in his chancery office, even when he has visitors. I think that Antiochian Priests have been forbidden from wearing cassocks outside of the church grounds at Primate PHILIP's orders.

Most likely, Archbishop JOSEPH will take Metropolitan PHILIP's place or even become the next Antiochian Patriarch. Lord have mercy. Antiochians do not generally use organs, but they have been known to have string quartets or harps at weddings. Their "pews" often have thick pads. Many Antiochian priests are clean shaven, or almost entirely clean shaven. Many only shave outside of Lenten times, but sport the after 5 look during Lenten times, and promptly shave just before the Pascha service. Confession seems to be no longer encouraged; Paraclesis is almost non-existent; choirs sing in 4-part harmony or even 6-part harmony; and in the Middle East, yes, there are altar girls, as there are in the Melkite Church. A little ecumenism?

I've been to more than a few Antiochian parishes scattered across the nation and I have to say I have yet to see any of this litany of abuses (save for pews, but of the only two parishes I've been to that didn't have pews one was Antiochian). Confession was always encouraged, especially during the four fasting periods, I've only been to the Paraklesis at an Antiochian parish(es. The local Greek parish in Miami tends not to do any weekday services at all during the summer- there's near literally no one left in the state to attend), and the priests have always had some level of beard (just about every jurisdiction I've attended has the priest going down to the "after 5" look just before the Pascha service- not shaving or trimming at ALL for two months has got to get itchy). Wouldn't know about the instruments at weddings, I have yet to attend an Orthodox wedding service.

As for the 4-part and 6-part harmony- the few Antiochian parishes I've been to that do this usually tend to use the Russian settings for it- perhaps not "Antiochian" but IMO a good move toward an "American" Orthodoxy (where "American" means not the ethnicity, but the idea that we are a nation composed of several different ethnicities, with various cultural traditions that we share and contribute to the whole. An American city is the poorer when it has no gyro stands, Italian restaurants, and hole-in-the-wall taco places. Yes, most of my idea of "cultural tradition" comes down to food, why shouldn't it?). Even when they do use the Byzantine tones with harmony it usually sounds better than the Greek-parishes-with-choir I've been to (and currently attend) where whatever beauty is to be found in the tone is drowned out in the warble of that one old lady (this is a cross-denominational phenomenon- save in those non-denom "contemporary worship" places where there ARE NO old ladies- and its always that lady who had "vocal training" in her younger days. Yes, I'm sure you were the belle-of-the-ball when the boys got back from Normandy Beach, dearie, but try and tone it down).

I don't think we can pin "abuses" on any one jurisdiction- here in America we're equally abusive.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 07:53:07 PM by FormerReformer » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2012, 08:05:27 PM »

Easy now partner!!! On the one hand you object to overly bold statements regarding the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, and on the other, you make an equally bold statement about the GOARCH. I am not Greek nor am I in the GOARCH but I just cannot agree with your implication that the Greek Archdiocese in America is somehow deficient as compared to other Greek Churches abroad.

I happen to think that most human organizations have faults; at the very least, over time they become ossified and develop bad habits. Now, it is absolutely true that at different points of time, one could say that Church X was more corrupt (etc..) than Church Y, or, a better Orthodox church than the other. However, the temporary aberrations or fidelities do not permanently brand them. How about agreeing that overly broad statements and claims are all equally bad?

I did not say anything about the GOARCH being deficient, nor did I make any references to its holilness. However, it is a fact that many of the things often cited on this site against the EP - organs, clean shaven priests, dog collars, polyphonic music, little girls serving the altar, no confession, etc. - are things that are for the most part unheard of in Greek parishes outside of America. Whether these things are important or not are another issue, but I think I made a valid observation, not a broad generalisation, when I said much of what is levelled against the Greeks on this board is based on the GOARCH in America,  not Greek churches in general. Again, as I said in my post, I do not deny the countless problems in the EP, but object to the dishonest way in which the Russian Church is presented as the bastion of Orthodox tradition.

Are you sure that you are not confusing GOARCH with the Antiochians as they also refer to themselves as Greek Antiochians

No, we do not.
since they were under the EP for a while?

Only as long as the Ottoman Sultan put the Phanar in charge.
Archbishop JOSEPH wears Roman collars and cleric suits with red trims that make him look like a Roman Catholic Monsignor or Bishop, and then he wears jogging suits at home in his chancery office, even when he has visitors. I think that Antiochian Priests have been forbidden from wearing cassocks outside of the church grounds at Primate PHILIP's orders.

Most likely, Archbishop JOSEPH will take Metropolitan PHILIP's place or even become the next Antiochian Patriarch. Lord have mercy. Antiochians do not generally use organs, but they have been known to have string quartets or harps at weddings.
Never seen that. Not that it would bother all that much, but never seen it.
Their "pews" often have thick pads. Many Antiochian priests are clean shaven, or almost entirely clean shaven.
You prefer them to blend in with these types?

Many only shave outside of Lenten times, but sport the after 5 look during Lenten times, and promptly shave just before the Pascha service. Confession seems to be no longer encouraged; Paraclesis is almost non-existent
I don't know of a single parish that doesn't have it.
choirs sing in 4-part harmony or even 6-part harmony;

And?
and in the Middle East, yes, there are altar girls,
did we ever get any proof of that?
as there are in the Melkite Church. A little ecumenism?
yes

Then there are those archons who promote things diametrically opposed to the Faith and practice of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2012, 08:35:38 PM »

Here we go, round and around.....

I am not Greek, but I will try to defend my friends as best I can with respect to 'their ways.'

I thought that was what I was doing....

oy
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