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Author Topic: Can the priest pray for non-Orthodox (Christians) during the Liturgy  (Read 4939 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 27, 2010, 05:53:23 PM »

During the part of the Liturgy when the priest prays for the sick and iterates the list of names he has, is it acceptable to pray for a family member of a parishioner who isn't Orthodox?
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 06:02:09 PM »

Huh Which part?  (Maybe this is something different in Slavic-influenced traditions)

During the Proskomede, and other official times (like Memorial services, Paraklesis, Artoclasia, at the Anaphora, or at the Great Entrance) - no. 

But we already pray for everyone (Orthodox or not) who is sick, suffering, and in captivity at the beginning of the Liturgy, so just quietly pray to the Lord for the person you are thinking of at that time, while saying with your lips the usual response (and most efficient prayer of the Church), "Lord, have mercy."
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 06:24:20 PM »

We always do during some parts, like when we pray for the President of the USA and the civil authorities. Most of them are not Orthodox.
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 07:24:00 PM »

Huh Which part?  (Maybe this is something different in Slavic-influenced traditions)

During the Proskomede, and other official times (like Memorial services, Paraklesis, Artoclasia, at the Anaphora, or at the Great Entrance) - no. 

But we already pray for everyone (Orthodox or not) who is sick, suffering, and in captivity at the beginning of the Liturgy, so just quietly pray to the Lord for the person you are thinking of at that time, while saying with your lips the usual response (and most efficient prayer of the Church), "Lord, have mercy."

Specifically the part where the priest names off the names of the sick (by name). I don't know what the name of this particular part of the Liturgy would be.

We always do during some parts, like when we pray for the President of the USA and the civil authorities. Most of them are not Orthodox.

So if the answer really is no, then this presents sort of an oxymoron if we pray for the President of the country and all civil authorities then we are praying for specific individuals who aren't necessarily Orthodox, yet we can't name the name of an immediate family member who isn't Orthodox? That's not making a lot of sense to me...
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 09:56:57 PM »

My priest will sometimes pray specifically for non-Orthodox persons during the Litany of Fervent Supplication at Vespers.  He will also pray for the whole family who offered the Holy Bread, regardless of whether they are Orthodox or not at the Great Entrance and has even specifically mentioned my grandfather who was not Orthodox.  I think it was a nice gesture on his part even if it was not "correct."
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 10:33:15 PM »

Christ is Risen!
    David,
At Holy Trinity Fr. Tim will pray for non orthodox-christians during the litany of feverant suplication because the parish made up of som many converts. So I would say it depends on the priest and the makeup of the parish.
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 10:47:42 PM »

Serbs will not violate the rubrics!  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 10:59:30 PM »

Serbs will not violate the rubrics!  Lips Sealed

Generally speaking, I agree.  But were there no parastosi for Josip Broz Tito?

I recall when Tito died.  The Government instructed the Church to serve parastosi for him in all the churches.  The Patriarch agreed, with the proviso that the local government officials must attend.  That put a damper on the demand, at least in Belgrade.

Then the Government demanded that the churches of Belgrade play their bells during that ever-so-long march of the funeral cortege.  The churches did play their bells but not in the customary mournful toll for a funeral but with the rather joyful one used after a wedding!!!   laugh

Living in Yugoslavia had so many similarites with the series of books "Don Camillo and the Devil" - the amusing battles between the local Catholic priest and the communist mayor in a village in northen Italy.  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 12:46:05 AM »

 
We always do during some parts, like when we pray for the President of the USA and the civil authorities. Most of them are not Orthodox.
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Who is we? You mean catechumens?
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 12:52:29 AM »

We always do during some parts, like when we pray for the President of the USA and the civil authorities. Most of them are not Orthodox.
Who is we? You mean catechumens?

I mean my parish during the liturgy. All parishes commemorate the President in the place of the sovereign.
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 01:47:30 AM »

I'm aware of the petition in the litany. 
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 07:02:51 AM »

Christ is Risen!
    David,
At Holy Trinity Fr. Tim will pray for non orthodox-christians during the litany of feverant suplication because the parish made up of som many converts. So I would say it depends on the priest and the makeup of the parish.
The same is done at our parish although the number of converts is just a few but there are also marriages of cradles between Catholic and Protestant spouses.
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 07:27:01 AM »

Specifically the part where the priest names off the names of the sick (by name). I don't know what the name of this particular part of the Liturgy would be.

I don't know either - there is no tradition in the Greek Church of such a thing, but then again I'm not sure I have a clear point of comparison, since you're not very clear in your description.  I need you or someone else here to describe to me when this takes place in order for me to comment.

So if the answer really is no, then this presents sort of an oxymoron if we pray for the President of the country and all civil authorities then we are praying for specific individuals who aren't necessarily Orthodox, yet we can't name the name of an immediate family member who isn't Orthodox? That's not making a lot of sense to me...

I gave you specific instances of when the answer is no ("like Memorial services, Paraklesis, Artoclasia, at the Anaphora, or at the Great Entrance") and a specific instance when it is yes.  During the Great Litany, we pray for the whole world, we pray for civil leaders, we pray for those traveling, sick, or in captivity - so during the Great Litany we pray for lots of people who are not Orthodox.  But there are parts of the services when praying for the non-Orthodox is forbidden, like the examples I gave above, or during the Proskomedia, too.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 07:53:14 AM »

Specifically the part where the priest names off the names of the sick (by name). I don't know what the name of this particular part of the Liturgy would be.

I don't know either - there is no tradition in the Greek Church of such a thing, but then again I'm not sure I have a clear point of comparison, since you're not very clear in your description.  I need you or someone else here to describe to me when this takes place in order for me to comment.

So if the answer really is no, then this presents sort of an oxymoron if we pray for the President of the country and all civil authorities then we are praying for specific individuals who aren't necessarily Orthodox, yet we can't name the name of an immediate family member who isn't Orthodox? That's not making a lot of sense to me...

I gave you specific instances of when the answer is no ("like Memorial services, Paraklesis, Artoclasia, at the Anaphora, or at the Great Entrance") and a specific instance when it is yes.  During the Great Litany, we pray for the whole world, we pray for civil leaders, we pray for those traveling, sick, or in captivity - so during the Great Litany we pray for lots of people who are not Orthodox.  But there are parts of the services when praying for the non-Orthodox is forbidden, like the examples I gave above, or during the Proskomedia, too.


In the OCA and in several other jurisdictions, it's common for the Litany of Fervent Supplication (and sometimes the Great Litany) to be expanded or personalized by the priest or Bishop. For example, Met. Jonah wrote some extra petitions about the Episcopal Assembly; many priests, when they get to the petition about the sick, chant a lists of names of parishioners who are sick; and, in the Slavic tradition, priests commemorate living and dead at the end of the Great Entrance (as if they are bishops), so they will mention specific people and/or situations at the point. In my experience, most of the priests who do this do not mention non-Orthodox in the liturgical services. They ask parishioners to write the non-Orthodox names in a separate area of the prayer list, so they can just pray for them silently.
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 11:04:08 AM »

I know the question addressess a technicality; but it seems to me that at some level we Orthodox ought to be aware that the Priest is actually addressing GOD!   

Its not called a LITURGY for nothing?  Do we not pray for Peace in the world, for deliverance from famine, flood fire and many other things. 

I assume You meant can he pray for by NAME as he also prays for by NAME those who are numbered among the faithful (thou some may be faithless or of little faith)?


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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 11:34:32 AM »

Specifically the part where the priest names off the names of the sick (by name). I don't know what the name of this particular part of the Liturgy would be.

I don't know either - there is no tradition in the Greek Church of such a thing, but then again I'm not sure I have a clear point of comparison, since you're not very clear in your description.  I need you or someone else here to describe to me when this takes place in order for me to comment.

So if the answer really is no, then this presents sort of an oxymoron if we pray for the President of the country and all civil authorities then we are praying for specific individuals who aren't necessarily Orthodox, yet we can't name the name of an immediate family member who isn't Orthodox? That's not making a lot of sense to me...

I gave you specific instances of when the answer is no ("like Memorial services, Paraklesis, Artoclasia, at the Anaphora, or at the Great Entrance") and a specific instance when it is yes.  During the Great Litany, we pray for the whole world, we pray for civil leaders, we pray for those traveling, sick, or in captivity - so during the Great Litany we pray for lots of people who are not Orthodox.  But there are parts of the services when praying for the non-Orthodox is forbidden, like the examples I gave above, or during the Proskomedia, too.
During the Great Litany, our priest will sometimes mention, "For the sick and the suffering, especially (Name)...." Most of the time he mentions parishioners, but when he doesn't, I don't actually know whether those people are Orthodox or not. However, I have never heard him mention specific names except during the Great Litany.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 02:43:53 PM »

Greetings to All:

Canon Law stipulates that certain prayers and litanies, such as the Great Litany, may include general prayers of supplication for the welfare of Heads of State, military personnel, or members of the local community at large, for example. Some of those so included may not even be Christians, let alone Orthodox Christians.

However, those who have not received an Orthodox Baptism, or those baptized Orthodox who have since been deposed or excommunicated, may not be specifically named in liturgical commemorations of either the living or the dead.

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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 04:26:16 PM »

Thank you to pensate and Mr Y for your answers to my question.  More to the OP: I don't think I've ever heard a priest say the name of a non-Orthodox person in a petition for health during the fervent litany.
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 04:31:32 PM »

Greetings to All:

Canon Law stipulates that certain prayers and litanies, such as the Great Litany, may include general prayers of supplication for the welfare of Heads of State, military personnel, or members of the local community at large, for example. Some of those so included may not even be Christians, let alone Orthodox Christians.

However, those who have not received an Orthodox Baptism, or those baptized Orthodox who have since been deposed or excommunicated, may not be specifically named in liturgical commemorations of either the living or the dead.

+Cosmos

Cosmos,

Could you provide a link to such a canon?  Let me be clear that I do not dispute your assertion, but it is the custom of this forum to provide links or names of paper sources to such authoritative pronouncements.
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 05:59:10 PM »

Hi Schultz:

Sorry! You'd have to search for it, same as me! There's only a thousand Canons or so to sift through, so good luck! Undecided

Here's a link to a good starting point: http://aggreen.net/canons/canons.html

What I posted is what I was told both by my parish priest and by the bishop when I asked each of them why my deceased non-Orthodox Christian relatives couldn't be named in the Commemorations for the Dead at Divine Liturgy on or near the anniversary date of their deaths?  Huh

The priest, who was a convert to Orthodox Christianity himself, regretted that he couldn't even commemorate his own parents, since they had never been baptized and/or chrismated into the Orthodox Faith.  Cry

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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 06:59:42 PM »


Canon Law stipulates that certain prayers and litanies, such as the Great Litany, may include general prayers of supplication for the welfare of Heads of State, military personnel, or members of the local community at large, for example. Some of those so included may not even be Christians, let alone Orthodox Christians.
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Dear Cosmos,

Are you sure of the existence of such canons? If they were in existence then, for example, there would not have been the great debate in this diocese over whether to commemorate Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth in the Litanies.  Those in favour of commemoration never quoted any supportive canons, but I may be misremembering.

What carried the day was the scriptural injunction from Saint Paul to pray for our rulers.
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 07:04:17 PM »


+Cosmos

Praying for those who died outside the Church...

See Message 12 and Message 13

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14478.msg424899/topicseen.html#msg424899
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 09:04:13 PM »

Sorry! You'd have to search for it, same as me! There's only a thousand Canons or so to sift through, so good luck! Undecided

Cosmos, Schultz didn't make the bold statement that it is against Canon Law to pray for non-Orthodox. If your priest and bishop made the assertion then perhaps they can help you provide the source of the canon.

We hold our posters to high standards here and expect when bold statements are made that they will be backed up with fact. So please provide the canon or retract the statement. -Arimethea, Liturgy Section Mod
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 09:36:15 PM »

I'm aware of the petition in the litany.

If you knew what I was talking about then why did you ask?
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 09:40:43 PM »

Specifically the part where the priest names off the names of the sick (by name). I don't know what the name of this particular part of the Liturgy would be.

I don't know either - there is no tradition in the Greek Church of such a thing, but then again I'm not sure I have a clear point of comparison, since you're not very clear in your description.  I need you or someone else here to describe to me when this takes place in order for me to comment.

So if the answer really is no, then this presents sort of an oxymoron if we pray for the President of the country and all civil authorities then we are praying for specific individuals who aren't necessarily Orthodox, yet we can't name the name of an immediate family member who isn't Orthodox? That's not making a lot of sense to me...

I gave you specific instances of when the answer is no ("like Memorial services, Paraklesis, Artoclasia, at the Anaphora, or at the Great Entrance") and a specific instance when it is yes.  During the Great Litany, we pray for the whole world, we pray for civil leaders, we pray for those traveling, sick, or in captivity - so during the Great Litany we pray for lots of people who are not Orthodox.  But there are parts of the services when praying for the non-Orthodox is forbidden, like the examples I gave above, or during the Proskomedia, too.

Okay sorry for not being more precise. It is the Litany of Fervent Supplication that I am referring to. Seems that some priests will and others will not regardless of what the canons are.

On kind of a side note, the Liturgy also tells all the catechumens to depart but I don't know of any parishes where that is actually enforced.
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 09:42:46 PM »

During the part of the Liturgy when the priest prays for the sick and iterates the list of names he has, is it acceptable to pray for a family member of a parishioner who isn't Orthodox?

When my wife died in January, I know that at least two Orthodox priests said her name during the liturgy, even though she wasn't Orthodox at the time of her death. I have no idea when exactly (or if it was silently) they did this. And as others have indicated, this is by no means a universal practice...
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 09:46:21 PM »

Can my co-worker who is baptized but (unintentionally) apostate be commemorated? She is the granddaughter of Romanian immigrants. She was baptized/chrismated/communed as an infant, but when she was about five years old her mother converted to the Vatican's church, and after that she received first communion and confirmation along with all of the other kids.

She says she never believed in the Vatican's teachings anyway, but her father is an "Orthodox" Jew and she now attends the synagogue with him and is in the process of converting to Judaism. She has no real knowledge of Holy Orthodox Catholicism; I am her only exposure to the True Faith which established the Universe. So anyway, can I have her commemorated, as she is baptized, but obviously "apostate"? (I'm not sure if it is possible to apostatize from a faith you never have personally committed yourself to; the whole "Cafeteria Catholic" syndrome).
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 09:49:23 PM »

There's only a thousand Canons or so to sift through, so good luck! Undecided

Numbers from the Introduction of "Ancient Epitome of The Sacred Canons of the Eastern Orthodox Church" (Fr. George Mastrantonis, ed.):

Ecumenical Synods: I: 20.  II: 7.  III: 8.  IV: 30.  V: 0.  VI: 0/102.  VII: 22.  Total: 189

Apostolic Canons: 85.

Regional Synods adopted by the Ecumenical Synods: 1st/2nd: 17.  Holy Wisdom: 3.  Carthage (Cyprian): 1.  Ancyra: 25.  Neocaesaria: 15.  Gangra: 21.  Antioch: 25.  Laodicaea: 60.  Sardica: 20.  Constantinople: 2.  Carthage (African Code): 141.  Total: 330

Canons of the Fathers: 254 (I'm not listing the 16 Fathers included in the collection).

Grand total: 858.
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 09:51:42 PM »

Okay sorry for not being more precise. It is the Litany of Fervent Supplication that I am referring to. Seems that some priests will and others will not regardless of what the canons are.

I have yet to see a canon that tells me to not commemorate the non-Orthodox in petitions.  However, it is my observation of the tradition of the Church that we have indeed prayed for non-Orthodox during the Great Litany, and we have not prayed for them in the Proskomedia, Great Entrance, Anaphora, Trisagia, Memorials, Artoclasia, and Paraklesis services.

On kind of a side note, the Liturgy also tells all the catechumens to depart but I don't know of any parishes where that is actually enforced.

I don't either.  In fact, in 99% of the parishes I've been to, that section of the Liturgy is omitted.
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 10:18:38 PM »

Can my co-worker who is baptized but (unintentionally) apostate be commemorated? She is the granddaughter of Romanian immigrants. She was baptized/chrismated/communed as an infant, but when she was about five years old her mother converted to the Vatican's church, and after that she received first communion and confirmation along with all of the other kids.

She says she never believed in the Vatican's teachings anyway, but her father is an "Orthodox" Jew and she now attends the synagogue with him and is in the process of converting to Judaism. She has no real knowledge of Holy Orthodox Catholicism; I am her only exposure to the True Faith which established the Universe. So anyway, can I have her commemorated, as she is baptized, but obviously "apostate"? (I'm not sure if it is possible to apostatize from a faith you never have personally committed yourself to; the whole "Cafeteria Catholic" syndrome).
You don't know whether she's 'apostate". Give her the benefit of the  doubt, and pray for her.
I've had plenty of family and relatives that didn't darken the door of the church to many times after their baptism, but I should pray for them anyway, and at liturgy, of course.
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2010, 01:19:45 AM »

Okay sorry for not being more precise. It is the Litany of Fervent Supplication that I am referring to. Seems that some priests will and others will not regardless of what the canons are.

I have yet to see a canon that tells me to not commemorate the non-Orthodox in petitions.  However, it is my observation of the tradition of the Church that we have indeed prayed for non-Orthodox during the Great Litany, and we have not prayed for them in the Proskomedia, Great Entrance, Anaphora, Trisagia, Memorials, Artoclasia, and Paraklesis services.

For the most part, Fr. George, I've observed the same thing. However...I would very much like to find a written guideline to that effect anywhere, as I cannot recall ever seeing. If anyone has suggestions where to look, I would be grateful.
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2010, 01:49:19 AM »

However, it is my observation of the tradition of the Church that we have indeed prayed for non-Orthodox during the Great Litany, and we have not prayed for them in the Proskomedia, Great Entrance, Anaphora, Trisagia, Memorials, Artoclasia, and Paraklesis services.

A lot of priests do pray for the non-Orthodox at Proskomedia and elsewhere.  When people send up their book of names for commemoration and also the slips of paper with names,  it is impossible for the priests to know if every "David" and "Julia" is Orthodox or Catholic, Mormon or Jew.  And the priest can hardly stand at the deacon's door and ask:  "Mrs Levin, are these names of Samuel and Sarah Jews?!  Mrs MacGillicuddy, is this Sean and this Brigid some of our people or part of Cardinal Mahoney's flock?!

The same goes for the sometimes hundreds of names of the departed which are handed to priests at the time when they are serving a Memorial in the church and a lot of people are present.
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2010, 03:35:22 PM »

Yes, it is the Litany of Fervent Supplication where these petitions are added.  The deacon's/priest's service book contains many such petitions for various needs: sick, travellers, times of unrest, expectant mothers, thanksgiving for petitions granted, among others.  This goes back to ancient times and the role of the deacon in exhorting the people in the litanies to pray for the concerns of those whom he knew to be in need through his practical service to them.  It is mentioned in this article.  I see no reason why it would be limited to those who are Orthodox.  In this respect, it is different from the proskomede, which is limited to the Orthodox.

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Michael
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2010, 03:43:18 PM »

However, it is my observation of the tradition of the Church that we have indeed prayed for non-Orthodox during the Great Litany, and we have not prayed for them in the Proskomedia, Great Entrance, Anaphora, Trisagia, Memorials, Artoclasia, and Paraklesis services.
A lot of priests do pray for the non-Orthodox at Proskomedia and elsewhere.  When people send up their book of names for commemoration and also the slips of paper with names,  it is impossible for the priests to know if every "David" and "Julia" is Orthodox or Catholic, Mormon or Jew.  And the priest can hardly stand at the deacon's door and ask:  "Mrs Levin, are these names of Samuel and Sarah Jews?!  Mrs MacGillicuddy, is this Sean and this Brigid some of our people or part of Cardinal Mahoney's flock?!

The same goes for the sometimes hundreds of names of the departed which are handed to priests at the time when they are serving a Memorial in the church and a lot of people are present.

But that's the priest giving people the benefit of the doubt.  If a parishioner were to hand you a slip of paper with only 1 name for commemoration of the dead at Proskomedia, and you knew 100% that the person was Roman Catholic, would you say it?  Likely not.  I wouldn't - why make someone as accountable as all the Saints before the Dread Judgment Seat if they're not baptized?  Why immerse a piece representing their soul in the Blood of Christ, which is "fire for the unworthy?"
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 03:44:24 PM by Fr. George » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2010, 04:45:34 PM »

However, it is my observation of the tradition of the Church that we have indeed prayed for non-Orthodox during the Great Litany, and we have not prayed for them in the Proskomedia, Great Entrance, Anaphora, Trisagia, Memorials, Artoclasia, and Paraklesis services.
A lot of priests do pray for the non-Orthodox at Proskomedia and elsewhere.  When people send up their book of names for commemoration and also the slips of paper with names,  it is impossible for the priests to know if every "David" and "Julia" is Orthodox or Catholic, Mormon or Jew.  And the priest can hardly stand at the deacon's door and ask:  "Mrs Levin, are these names of Samuel and Sarah Jews?!  Mrs MacGillicuddy, is this Sean and this Brigid some of our people or part of Cardinal Mahoney's flock?!

The same goes for the sometimes hundreds of names of the departed which are handed to priests at the time when they are serving a Memorial in the church and a lot of people are present.

But that's the priest giving people the benefit of the doubt.  If a parishioner were to hand you a slip of paper with only 1 name for commemoration of the dead at Proskomedia, and you knew 100% that the person was Roman Catholic, would you say it?  Likely not.  I wouldn't - why make someone as accountable as all the Saints before the Dread Judgment Seat if they're not baptized?  Why immerse a piece representing their soul in the Blood of Christ, which is "fire for the unworthy?"

Hmmm.  I like your imagery...it is similiar to what I have read.
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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2010, 12:44:01 PM »

Having recently inquired again regarding Orthodox Canon Law pertaining to this topic, as requested, I was told by both the priest and the bishop that Orthodox Canon Law is broadly interpreted traditionally, and not so rigidly legalistic as is Roman Catholic Canon Law, for example.  I was told at this time that opinions may vary among the Church Hierarchy regarding this issue in order to provide for local customs at the discretion of the presiding Ecclesiarch. I am unclear as to whether the recent reply reflects a change in official policy or simply a change in previous interpretation of the Church guidelines. In any event, neither party was able to point to a specific Canon Law as validation of their past or present opinions. Sad

This response thus seems to vaguely permit, yet directly contradicts, what I had been told years ago, IMO. As a result, I hereby retract my earlier statement, and apologize to all for any confusion which may have ensued here accordingly. Once again, I was merely sharing information in good faith that I had previously received from those whom I had no reason to doubt or question regarding this issue.  Undecided
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 12:48:38 PM by Cosmos » Logged

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