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Author Topic: Has Noah's Ark Been Found on Turkish Mountaintop?  (Read 4865 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: April 27, 2010, 11:37:06 AM »

Has Noah's Ark Been Found on Turkish Mountaintop?

A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers say wooden remains they have discovered on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey are the remains of Noah's Ark.

The group claims that carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old, meaning they date to around the same time the ark was said to be afloat. Mt. Ararat has long been suspected as the final resting place of the craft by evangelicals and literalists hoping to validate biblical stories.

Yeung Wing-Cheung, from the Noah's Ark Ministries International research team that made the discovery, said: "It's not 100 percent that it is Noah's Ark, but we think it is 99.9 percent that this is it."...
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 11:37:40 AM »

Maybe I'm just too much of a cynic or skeptic, but somehow I doubt that this is Noah's ark. But who knows...
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 11:53:50 AM »

The name of the group is enough for me to doubt the discovery.

As a side note, I hate the sort of journalism that hides a claim with a question mark. Fox News employs question marks ad nauseum.
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 01:18:42 PM »

Even if someone is taking a completely "removed" view of non-belief in such things, or considers the account to be a mythological moral lesson of sorts, it doesn't change the fact that a similar myth is a part of Mesopotamian tradition, although I don't remember the name of the hero in that story off the top of my head. That doesn't "prove" it anymore true; the Hebrews version could certainly have been an adaptation of that story, but it is also possible that the whole story has some basis in reality for the thoroughly modernist observer.

All that to say that I could not care less about these sorts of "scientific Biblical inquiries" by Christians trying to "prove" the Bible, when all they are really doing is capitulating to the spirit of the times and affirming positivism as a valid paradigm for obtaining knowledge about God.
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 01:31:27 PM »

^ Protestantism is the spirit of the times. It is religious existentialism, the idea that one can know only what one has experienced. The "experience with Jesus" idea so prevalent in Evangelical doctrine requires that one have proof from experience that something is true in order to accept it. The word of others does not count, nor does what anyone else believes. Only one's own experience can be trusted. Thus are things like this necessary for them to believe.
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 01:52:21 PM »

The age old idea that Mt. Ararat contains the actual remnants of Noah's Ark is still nowhere close to being established.  Wooden planks do not translate to Noah's Ark.  It would be great it if these planks were conclusively proved (and they haven't been) to be those of Noah's Ark, but until that occurs, they're just planks of wood and nothing more.
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 02:38:47 PM »

It was reported to have been discovered in 1912 by a Russian pilot. Later the Tsar sent sappers who found it and recorded info.  You can find it in Berlitz book ?1960s.  It is the theme of a newly released novel on Amazon -The Landing Place by S.Gascoigne.
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 02:48:47 PM »

From the article: "The significance of this find is that for the first time in history the discovery of Noah’s Ark is well documented and revealed to the worldwide community..."

... to boost future merchandise sales, of course.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 07:58:15 PM »

if we can find millions of yeas old dinosaur bones we have a good chance of finding Noah's Ark, right?! and archaeologist Eilat Mazar, using the Bible as a map, has found a massive structure in Jerusalem that she believes to be King David's Palace. Bible sounds like a good map to me.
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 09:17:23 PM »

Even if someone is taking a completely "removed" view of non-belief in such things, or considers the account to be a mythological moral lesson of sorts, it doesn't change the fact that a similar myth is a part of Mesopotamian tradition, although I don't remember the name of the hero in that story off the top of my head.

Utnapishtim was the Noah figure in the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 09:21:58 PM »

From the article: "The significance of this find is that for the first time in history the discovery of Noah’s Ark is well documented and revealed to the worldwide community..."

"For the first time in history"? Rubbish. As well as the earlier expeditions mentioned by observer, there was a doco I remember watching on TV in about, oh, 1977 or '78, which "proved" that the Ark was on the side of Ararat, and I know there have been others produced before and since. Short memories....
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 10:22:15 PM »

Someone discovers Noah's ark every 10 years or so.
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 11:58:21 PM »

I can't believe how many people don't believe even though may be seeing the actual Noah's ark.
Jesus said something like: even though people would come from the dead to testify of things they had seen for a fact, they still wouldn't believe them.

Luk 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
the same thing happens with people skeptical with near death experiences claiming to see Jesus.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 12:03:03 AM »

the same thing happens with people skeptical with near death experiences claiming to see Jesus.

Other people see their grandmother, or even Vishnu. You can't "prove" this stuff, and it's absurd to try.
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 12:31:20 AM »

Its old wood found at 4000m in almost the middle east so therefore it has to be the Ark....so what book sold in evangelical circles and paid lecture tours to said evangelical meeting houses is to follow?
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 04:44:47 AM »


All that to say that I could not care less about these sorts of "scientific Biblical inquiries" by Christians trying to "prove" the Bible, when all they are really doing is capitulating to the spirit of the times and affirming positivism as a valid paradigm for obtaining knowledge about God.


I agree.


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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 04:51:21 AM »

^ Protestantism is the spirit of the times. It is religious existentialism, the idea that one can know only what one has experienced. The "experience with Jesus" idea so prevalent in Evangelical doctrine requires that one have proof from experience that something is true in order to accept it. The word of others does not count, nor does what anyone else believes. Only one's own experience can be trusted. Thus are things like this necessary for them to believe.

Well, yes and no. Evangelical Protestants are very big on apologetics, attempting to provide objective rational evidence for the Christian Faith. In doing so, I agree that they are capitualting to the spirit of this age, which as Alveus points out is basically a positivist approach that permeates society- especially academia. But this is quite contrary to existentialism, which is a purely subjective epistemology. In fact, we Orthodox are much more "experience" based than Protestants- not in an existential way, but in a divinely mystical sense which is actually the most objective foundation possible.


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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 08:40:14 AM »

^ Protestantism is the spirit of the times. It is religious existentialism, the idea that one can know only what one has experienced. The "experience with Jesus" idea so prevalent in Evangelical doctrine requires that one have proof from experience that something is true in order to accept it. The word of others does not count, nor does what anyone else believes. Only one's own experience can be trusted. Thus are things like this necessary for them to believe.

Well, yes and no. Evangelical Protestants are very big on apologetics, attempting to provide objective rational evidence for the Christian Faith. In doing so, I agree that they are capitualting to the spirit of this age, which as Alveus points out is basically a positivist approach that permeates society- especially academia. But this is quite contrary to existentialism, which is a purely subjective epistemology. In fact, we Orthodox are much more "experience" based than Protestants- not in an existential way, but in a divinely mystical sense which is actually the most objective foundation possible.
Having come out of Pentecostalism, my experience as an Evangelical Protestant may differ from others. But we certainly were much more concerned with the personal experience than with apologetics.
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 08:42:12 AM »

if we can find millions of yeas old dinosaur bones we have a good chance of finding Noah's Ark, right?! and archaeologist Eilat Mazar, using the Bible as a map, has found a massive structure in Jerusalem that she believes to be King David's Palace. Bible sounds like a good map to me.
Dinosaurs numbered in the millions and lived all over the planet. There was only one Noah's Ark.
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 09:20:06 AM »

I wouldn't get my hopes up too high. People have been looking for Noah's ark for at least two thousand years. Not only that, for thousands of years, people have built replicas of the ark on Mt. Ararat, according to Ben Worthington:

Quote
...before we jump on the Noah's Ark bandwagon (or in this case boat) a few things need to be said.  Firstly, at least three times in my lifetime people have claimed to find Noah's Ark.  John Warwick Montgomery, the famous apologete even wrote a book about it in the 70s (In Search of Noah's Ark). .  It proved to be at best an ark  shrine not Noah's original equipment.   What do I mean by an ark shrine?   We know that since ancient times, people have been searching for Noah's Ark.  Indeed, in NT times there was a little village in Turkey that minted coins with Mr. and Mrs. Noah on it, claiming they were the village near the spot where Noah landed!   People, ancient and modern have been making pilgrimages to the Ararat mountain region,  and at various points in history, it appears some enterprising souls have set up ark shrines, with some replica elements, to encourage tourism (and indeed to collect tourist denarii).  This has been going on since time immemorial.  It is possible another ark shrine has been found, like the one found in the 70s, only this one seems more substantial.

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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 10:07:03 AM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2010, 05:38:21 AM »

Several Chinese and Turkish evangelists are declaring they identified the spot of Noah's Ark, but that they will not let lose the location until their rights are guaranteed to dig it up and utilize the findings appropriately. They are only 99.9% certain this is the real deal because they are able to carbon date the Ark to 4,800 years ago when Noah supposedly set sail. I have heard it 6 times in my life and consider what you would like, but I wouldn't put my money on anything quite yet.
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2010, 07:47:37 AM »

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, there is always something suspicious about a group of people who go looking for something that no one else has found, and they find exactly what they're looking for.
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2010, 07:54:40 AM »

Mark my words, one day we will read the headlines: "Bones of Jesus Discovered!" But don't believe it. Wink


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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2010, 05:38:34 PM »

I wonder if these are the same people who discredit carbon dating whenever it's convenient for them in other scientific discoveries.
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2010, 06:59:54 PM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?

I found this very insightful, and will use it in the future. Thanks.
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2010, 07:23:12 PM »

Even if someone is taking a completely "removed" view of non-belief in such things, or considers the account to be a mythological moral lesson of sorts, it doesn't change the fact that a similar myth is a part of Mesopotamian tradition, although I don't remember the name of the hero in that story off the top of my head. That doesn't "prove" it anymore true; the Hebrews version could certainly have been an adaptation of that story, but it is also possible that the whole story has some basis in reality for the thoroughly modernist observer.

All that to say that I could not care less about these sorts of "scientific Biblical inquiries" by Christians trying to "prove" the Bible, when all they are really doing is capitulating to the spirit of the times and affirming positivism as a valid paradigm for obtaining knowledge about God.

I want to say Gilgamash.  That's the thought that came to mind, but I don't know if that's the right name or not.
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2010, 07:25:56 PM »

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, there is always something suspicious about a group of people who go looking for something that no one else has found, and they find exactly what they're looking for.

This happens all the time in western history and this is one of the reasons why Science evolved to quickly in the christian west. You have to have people seeking and looking for stuff or else how can our knowledge advance?











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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2010, 07:27:51 PM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?


Good point!
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2010, 07:59:59 PM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?

I seemed to have skipped over this by accident, but yes indeed, very insightful.
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2010, 01:31:47 PM »

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, there is always something suspicious about a group of people who go looking for something that no one else has found, and they find exactly what they're looking for.

This happens all the time in western history and this is one of the reasons why Science evolved to quickly in the christian west. You have to have people seeking and looking for stuff or else how can our knowledge advance?
A bunch of things have been discovered by accident, and of those that happened through work, it wasn't instantaneously. There were hundreds of failed light bulbs before Edison had a success. Discoveries that happen too easily are always suspicious.
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2010, 12:43:20 AM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?

Now that you mention it, yeah, that is interesting.
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2010, 12:25:37 PM »

I was right in this guy when i was Evangelical Protestant now  Huh
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2010, 02:01:29 PM »


No, an Armenian one.


http://www.ararat5137.org/images/vasken_summit.jpg
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2013, 01:29:08 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?

In Genesis 11:2, after the Flood, it is said that humans moved into the land of Shinar/Sennar/Sumer from a point further east: "And it came to pass as they moved from the east, they found a plain in the land of Senaar, and they dwelt there" (Brenton's Septuagint translation; NAB-RE is similarly translated, whereas some others -- like NIV -- says that the humans moved "eastward").
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2013, 02:29:22 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?

In Genesis 11:2, after the Flood, it is said that humans moved into the land of Shinar/Sennar/Sumer from a point further east: "And it came to pass as they moved from the east, they found a plain in the land of Senaar, and they dwelt there" (Brenton's Septuagint translation; NAB-RE is similarly translated, whereas some others -- like NIV -- says that the humans moved "eastward").

Excellent find, Jetavan. The location where Noah washed up would not have been Armenia or Turkey or Mount Ararat or the Caucasus, but someplace farther east.

Genesis 11 talks about how the went from the east to Sumeria, which was in Iraq/the west end of Iran and then it talks about building the tower of Babel.

If you look to the east of Iraq, it gets progressively higher: Iran, Afghanistan, then the Himalayas at the top in the area around Tibet and Nepal.



At least if you go on the story, it makes sense that the ark could have ended up in the Himalayas because it was the highest point, and would have been the first to get exposed. Therefore, we are stuck with suggesting that Noah's ship ended up in central or eastern Iran, Afghanistan, or the Himalayas.

When it comes to the actual meaning of the verse you talked about,
I don't know what to say.

The Masoretic text we have on Bible Hub says "miq-qe-ḏem". Qedem means East. Alot of the times it is used, it is talking about things in the east. Maybe it is saying that they were journeyng in the east, meaning the land east of Palestine. In that case, they were certainly still east of the Caucuses.

Isaiah 2:6 uses   miq-qe-ḏem,  to talk about people coming from the east.

But in Genesis 13:11, we see   miq-qe-ḏem when it says "Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan and Lot journeyed east". But where is the plain of Jordan? Is it east of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were on the east shore of the Dead Sea?

In Judges 8:11 we read the same Hebrew word: "And Gideon went up by the way of them that dwelt in tents on the east of Nobah "

But looking over how this exact form is used in alot of places, it looks to me like "from the east" is good or OK.

There are three more reasons why this passage rules out Mt Ararat in Turkey/Armenia:

1. The KJV and Septuagint say from the east.

2. They went to Sumer and Sumer is not eastward from Mt Ararat in Turkey/Armenia, but south of it. So even if it says eastward, it does not mean Mt Ararat.

3. If it does say eastward, that would not make much sense, because if you are going eastward it means you come from Palestine, and that region is about the same height as Sumeria, so it would not be a good place for Noah's touch down.

All of this suggests from the east is a better reading, pointing to the Himalayas or Afghanistan or Iran.
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2013, 02:34:28 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?

How could a local flood in Turkey, etc. deliver a boat to the Himalayas?  Huh
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2013, 02:38:33 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?

How could a local flood in Turkey, etc. deliver a boat to the Himalayas?  Huh
...assuming the flood occurred in Turkey....
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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2013, 02:46:17 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?

How could a local flood in Turkey, etc. deliver a boat to the Himalayas?  Huh
...assuming the flood occurred in Turkey....

Well it didn't happen in Nepal... unless of course you believe in a worldwide flood, though I assume you don't.
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2013, 03:18:54 PM »

This whole conversation reminds me about the claims of an ancient civilization around the world that pre-existed Sumeria, which is where Noah's sons went after the legendary flood. Sumeria is usually considered one of the oldest, if not the oldest significant civilization, and its beginning is dated to 4500 BC.

This is interesting, because major ruins around the world, whose impressive, megalith-style architecture is seriously debated, appear much older. Gobekli Tepe in Turkey uses the Megaliths in a stonehenge style and its beginning is dated to maybe 10000 BC.

Around lake Titicaca in Peru we find ruins that are aligned to the winter solstice, but are actually slightly misaligned- their directions would have been aligned to where the earth was arranged thousands of years before Sumeria.

The pyramid at Giza is of course a frequently discussed mystery, especially its age. One author writes:
Quote
Since precession causes the height of stars to change with time over a period of 26,000 years, try tilting the sky-image anti-clockwise back to the night sky we would observe in the 10,500 BC epoch. We then observe a perfect match of sky-ground image! While star Mintaka, smallest of the 3 stars of Orion's belt is slightly slanted in a south-westerly direction relative to the axis of the Milky Way, the 3rd pyramid too intimates this layout by being offset from the 2 greater pyramids in a similar direction.



http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/gem-projects/hm/0102-1-pyramids/page02.htm
There are of course many things curious about the pyramid, but one particularly so is that unlike many other Pharaoh tombs, it does not have any artwork inside. So it is a question for me whether it was simply meant as a normal tomb.

Stonehenge is another mystery considering its massive construction, but another interesting thing is that there are huge megalithic rocks, often arranged artificially, across Europe, along with other times that Stonehenge-style formations were created with smaller stones. On the other hand, Stonehenge is typically dated to 3000-2000 BC, which is well after Sumeria began, although the site itself dates to at least 8000 BC when there were wooden posts put in.

Turning to Russia and the Caucuses, there is a strange phenomena of "Dolmens." They are littered across the northeast edge of the Black Sea. The curious thing about them is we do not know what they were made for. They appear to have acoustic properties. They are made to be surrounded on all sides by either ground, stones, or some kind of concrete, with an empty space inside and a round hole in one of the walls that is plugged up with a round stone. They are also dated to a time before Sumeria, ranging from 25000 BC to 4000 BC.

Here is a map:


Here you can see a stonehenge-type П symbol engraved in the front:


It would be interesting to find out more what is the true story about these things. We do know also that ancient flood-type stories are shared by many cultures around the world.

On the other hand, mainstream archeology in academia seems to strongly dismiss theories about there being major civilizations predating Sumeria, because we do not really have written records from before then.

What we do have are massive structures in places like Puma Punku near lake Titicaca, and Giza, and puzzles about how they were made, what happened to the technology, their date, and how far had their civilization advanced besides just making the structures. It is surprising that they accomplished so much if their literature was at such a low level and they did not even have wheels yet. Perhaps it is just wistful thinking, but in any case it would be interesting to know more about them.
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2013, 03:28:23 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?

How could a local flood in Turkey, etc. deliver a boat to the Himalayas?  Huh
...assuming the flood occurred in Turkey....

Well it didn't happen in Nepal... unless of course you believe in a worldwide flood, though I assume you don't.
Genesis 11:2 is a bit murky. If it means to say that, after the flood, the post-flood humans started somewhere east of Sumeria, and then moved westward to Sumeria, then that would indicate the ark resting somewhere east of Sumeria. Mountainous regions east of Sumeria would not include Turkey, but would include the Iranian mountains, as well as the Hindu Kush and Himalayan regions of Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bhutan, and China.
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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2013, 03:29:32 PM »

Perhaps Mt. Ararat is actually within the Himalayas?
How could a local flood in Turkey, etc. deliver a boat to the Himalayas?  Huh
...assuming the flood occurred in Turkey....
Well it didn't happen in Nepal... unless of course you believe in a worldwide flood, though I assume you don't.
Asteriktos,

There are two ways to deal with this. First, we can just say that this is a myth. Genesis 8-9 says "But the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth...
Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”


So in the Bible the myth is about a flood that covered the earth. It would have been a worldwide flood. Put yourself in the imagination of that myth-writer. For you, you might really find the Himalayas, or a place of higher altitude than Iraq (Iran is higher), to be the best place for your story to consider Noah's ark to have rested.

The second way to deal with this is to claim that it was a real event. And if we say that it's a real event, we are still stuck with the Bible and what it looks like the Bible says is that they came to Sumeria from the east. It would not make sense that they would go eastwards to Sumeria from Mt Ararat. If they went from Mt Ararat to there, then they would be going southwards.

The disadvantage is that doesn't it seem like a literal flood of H20 was not found over the earth by geologists? The whole idea about repopulating the earth from the boat with those dimensions and only 2 of every species (incest anybody?) usually seemed far fetched to me.
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2013, 04:02:48 PM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?

Thanks for bumping this thread.  I think it's worth reading this post by Podkarpatska, as it's insightful today as it was then.
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« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2013, 04:19:33 PM »

Does anyone else find it interesting that in the early stages of the Reformation, one of the practices that Protestants found to be most objectionable in Catholicism was the veneration of relics and the proliferation of religious items claiming fragments of the Cross etc....but in our modern day, Evangelicals seem 'hell-bent' on needing to validate their beliefs by searching for Noah's Ark, the fascination with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail etc....?

Thanks for bumping this thread.  I think it's worth reading this post by Podkarpatska, as it's insightful today as it was then.

This fascination comes from the rejection of Tradition by the Reformers and the need for their spiritual descendants to validate their need to view the Bible as inerrant, word for word history. If one part of Scripture is found to be allegorical, their entire systemic 'theology' comes crashing down.
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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2013, 04:40:17 PM »

Someone discovers Noah's ark every 10 years or so.
I discovered Noah's ark one time.
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