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Author Topic: Self Proclaimed Patriarch Filaret & The UGCC  (Read 5118 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 24, 2010, 09:51:40 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 10:27:40 PM »

http://www.risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/35159/

Quote
Head of Kyivan Patriarchate Considers Uniting with Greek Catholics Possible

Fi.jpgKYIV – On April 8, 2010, at the press conference Prospects of Establishing One National Church in New Political Conditions, the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, Patriarch Filaret, expressed his opinion that the unification of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) with Ukrainian Orthodox Church is quite possible and likely. He believes, however, that it can happen only when the three branches of Ukrainian Orthodoxy—the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church—unite as one national church recognized by the world, reports Ukrinform.

According to the patriarch, today "good relations have been established between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church." He noted that there are quite powerful forces in the Greek Catholic environment which would like to unite with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

According to the hierarch, serious grounds for such unification must be ripe first of all among the believers of the UGCC.

A bit more here, not on UGCC but on Moscow.
http://www.risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/35154/
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 10:32:30 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 10:36:09 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  ...  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?


Absolutely!   May it be so!  May it be so!   What consolation and peace for the Ukraine to have one less division in its church life.   And surely the truly Orthodox will leave the Kiev Patriarchate rather than be under Rome and they will move to the canonical Orthodox Church?   Smiley

Alternatively the Ukrainian nightmare could continue if some refuse to go to Rome and create a Continuing Kievan Patriarchate without Patriarch Philaret!   Sad
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 10:37:58 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================


Orthodoc

What is your basis for stating that the Kyivan Patriarch Filaret is joining the Catholic Church?  
That may be what the catholics want but seems unlikely to happen.  Patriarch Filaret is merely saying that it is possible for the Ukrainian Catholics to recant and convert to Orthodoxy.

Quote
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/35159/
Head of Kyivan Patriarchate Considers Uniting with Greek Catholics Possible
9 April 2010, 12:50 | Interchurch relations | 0 |   |  
KYIV – On April 8, 2010, at the press conference Prospects of Establishing One National Church in New Political Conditions, the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, Patriarch Filaret, expressed his opinion that the unification of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) with Ukrainian Orthodox Church is quite possible and likely. He believes, however, that it can happen only when the three branches of Ukrainian Orthodoxy—the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church—unite as one national church recognized by the world, reports Ukrinform.
According to the patriarch, today "good relations have been established between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church." He noted that there are quite powerful forces in the Greek Catholic environment which would like to unite with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

According to the hierarch, serious grounds for such unification must be ripe first of all among the believers of the UGCC.


Kyivan Patriarchate Points to Main Obstacle in Bringing Greek Catholics Closer to Orthodox
29 March 2010, 11:43 | Interchurch relations | 0 |   |
KYIV — Commenting on the results of the recent session of the Committee of Inter-Conciliar Presence of the Russian Orthodox Church on the issue of counteracting and overcoming schisms held in Kyiv on March 25, 2010, the representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) touched also upon the situation regarding the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC). The UOC-KP stressed that strengthening the position of Orthodoxy in western Ukraine is possible exactly thanks to the movement for the autocephaly of the Ukrainian Church.
“…there are grounds to assume that the establishment in Ukraine of the one national Orthodox church will bring closer to Orthodoxy a considerable part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the process for them which is mainly hindered by their reluctance to belong to the Moscow Church,” says the statement of the press center of the UOC-KP.
The document also stresses that the Moscow Patriarchate should not “indulge in self-deception,” that the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox parishes in western Ukrainian regions do not belong to the Moscow Patriarchate.
In addition, commenting on the statements of Metropolitan Hilarion not only at the session of the mentioned committee but also his other meetings and discussions during his stay in Ukraine, the Kyivan Patriarchate expressed surprise as to why representatives of the Ukrainian churches are not engaged to the discussion of their very churches. The case in question concerned exactly Greek Catholics.
“During his stay in Kyiv and Lviv, Metropolitan Hilarion held meetings with representatives of the Roman Catholic Church such as Metroplitain M. Mokrzycki and the Apostolic Nuncio I. Jurkovic. According to the latest official reports, the head of the Department of External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate talked with the latter about the activity of the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine. In general, the practice of conducting negotiations about Ukrainian Churches between the religious centers outside Ukraine is odd, unacceptable, and without prospects,” stressed the Kyivan Patriarchate.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/35034/
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 02:04:17 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

It is a sin to lie.

There is absolutely nothing in tis article about "joining" the UGCC by the Ukrainian Orthodox.
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 02:36:20 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

It is a sin to lie.

There is absolutely nothing in tis article about "joining" the UGCC by the Ukrainian Orthodox.
Rather than merely accuse Orthodoc of lying, can you refute on this thread what you see to be his lies?  If Patriarch Philaret is indeed not making any move to join the UGCC, can you vindicate him by demonstrating this to us?
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 03:37:50 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?

http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

It is a sin to lie.

There is absolutely nothing in tis article about "joining" the UGCC by the Ukrainian Orthodox.
Rather than merely accuse Orthodoc of lying, can you refute on this thread what you see to be his lies?  If Patriarch Philaret is indeed not making any move to join the UGCC, can you vindicate him by demonstrating this to us?

The text says that Patr. +FILARET believes that in the future, it might become possible that the structure currently known as UGCC (formed because of politics in the 16th century, not because of religious differences) will re-unite itself with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. However, the three Orthodox jurisdictions in Ukraine (UOC-MP, UOC-KP and UAOC) should first merge into a single Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdiction.

There is nothing in the text, not a single word, implying that the UOC-KP will "join" Catholics.

Now, PtA, imagine that I give a link to something you posted on OC.net, for example that you voice certain differences with Irish hermit or whoever. Then, I write, "Guys, I never read myself what was under the link that I posted, but I tell you, they told me on an Evangelical Viccan forum that under that link, Peter The Aleut writes that he skinned his little sister, boiled her in a pot and ate her. Please, those of you who actually read PtA's text, clarify."

And then you and I both see a number of OC.net posters writing that you, indeed, ate your sister, and giving the link to "support" this statement.

That's how lies spread, and it is very sad to me to see OC.net being used as an instrument in spreading lies.
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 04:41:44 PM »

Quote
Rather than merely accuse Orthodoc of lying, can you refute on this thread what you see to be his lies?  If Patriarch Philaret is indeed not making any move to join the UGCC, can you vindicate him by demonstrating this to us?

Peter, I think you are being illogical.
There is nothing at all in the article that states or prooves that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC etc.
Thus, the orignal post in confrontational and inflamatory.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 04:50:57 PM »

Quote
Rather than merely accuse Orthodoc of lying, can you refute on this thread what you see to be his lies?  If Patriarch Philaret is indeed not making any move to join the UGCC, can you vindicate him by demonstrating this to us?

Peter, I think you are being illogical.
Not trying to be logical. Wink  If Person A is lying, then Person B should be able to reveal the truth to us and show us how Person A is lying.  It's really that simple.  Just as serious as lying is the unfounded charge that someone is lying.

(I do think that Orthodoc could have started this thread with something much less inflammatory, but that's beside the point at this moment.)
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 05:32:24 PM »

Quote
Rather than merely accuse Orthodoc of lying, can you refute on this thread what you see to be his lies?  If Patriarch Philaret is indeed not making any move to join the UGCC, can you vindicate him by demonstrating this to us?

Peter, I think you are being illogical.
Not trying to be logical. Wink  If Person A is lying, then Person B should be able to reveal the truth to us and show us how Person A is lying.  It's really that simple.  Just as serious as lying is the unfounded charge that someone is lying.

(I do think that Orthodoc could have started this thread with something much less inflammatory, but that's beside the point at this moment.)

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 06:09:40 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 06:23:39 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 06:24:00 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 06:50:11 PM »

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.
Which leaves me wondering how it is you allowed yourself to be taken over so much by ideology that you would see these persons as enemies to be fought and defeated, as though this were some kind of war.
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2010, 07:27:45 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that. 


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2010, 08:27:31 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that.  


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

<hem.... clears throat>  I believe what I have done is point out, when called for, that the Kyivan Patriarchate created and headed by Patriarch Philaret is recognised by no Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, nor is its Patriarch recognised as an Orthodox clergyman.  It seems I may need to apologise for trusting the nine Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church and accepting their decision on the Kyivan Patriarchate and its Patriarch.   Shocked
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 08:28:38 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2010, 08:43:52 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that.  


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

<hem.... clears throat>  I believe what I have done is point out, when called for, that the Kyivan Patriarchate created and headed by Patriarch Philaret is recognised by no Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, nor is its Patriarch recognised as an Orthodox clergyman.  It seems I may need to apologise for trusting the nine Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church and accepting their decision on the Kyivan Patriarchate and its Patriarch.   Shocked
You've no need to defend yourself here, Fr. Ambrose, for you're not the topic of this thread.
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2010, 08:58:11 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that. 


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

<hem.... clears throat>  I believe what I have done is point out, when called for, that the Kyivan Patriarchate created and headed by Patriarch Philaret is recognised by no Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, nor is its Patriarch recognised as an Orthodox clergyman.  It seems I may need to apologise for trusting the nine Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church and accepting their decision on the Kyivan Patriarchate and its Patriarch.   Shocked
You've no need to defend yourself here, Fr. Ambrose, for you're not the topic of this thread.
My approach to the problem of the Kyivan Patriarchate (which is simply that of the holy Orthodox Churches) was not represented accurately and I thought it best to set matters to rights.
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2010, 02:00:57 AM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that. 


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

<hem.... clears throat>  I believe what I have done is point out, when called for, that the Kyivan Patriarchate created and headed by Patriarch Philaret is recognised by no Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, nor is its Patriarch recognised as an Orthodox clergyman.  It seems I may need to apologise for trusting the nine Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church and accepting their decision on the Kyivan Patriarchate and its Patriarch.   Shocked
You've no need to defend yourself here, Fr. Ambrose, for you're not the topic of this thread.
My approach to the problem of the Kyivan Patriarchate (which is simply that of the holy Orthodox Churches) was not represented accurately and I thought it best to set matters to rights.
Fr. Ambrose, that tree you're looking at...  it's part of a forest.  Try to see that this forest is not about you.
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2010, 02:08:30 AM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that.  


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

<hem.... clears throat>  I believe what I have done is point out, when called for, that the Kyivan Patriarchate created and headed by Patriarch Philaret is recognised by no Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, nor is its Patriarch recognised as an Orthodox clergyman.  It seems I may need to apologise for trusting the nine Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church and accepting their decision on the Kyivan Patriarchate and its Patriarch.   Shocked
You've no need to defend yourself here, Fr. Ambrose, for you're not the topic of this thread.
My approach to the problem of the Kyivan Patriarchate (which is simply that of the holy Orthodox Churches) was not represented accurately and I thought it best to set matters to rights.
Fr. Ambrose, that tree you're looking at...  it's part of a forest.  Try to see that this forest is not about you.

We are probably fortunate in this county in that we have one clerical tree in the vagante forest - a chap who was made priest by Mar Melchidezek of Nebraska.  But he is a nice sort of person.

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 02:16:59 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2010, 02:24:24 AM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that.  


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

<hem.... clears throat>  I believe what I have done is point out, when called for, that the Kyivan Patriarchate created and headed by Patriarch Philaret is recognised by no Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, nor is its Patriarch recognised as an Orthodox clergyman.  It seems I may need to apologise for trusting the nine Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church and accepting their decision on the Kyivan Patriarchate and its Patriarch.   Shocked
You've no need to defend yourself here, Fr. Ambrose, for you're not the topic of this thread.
My approach to the problem of the Kyivan Patriarchate (which is simply that of the holy Orthodox Churches) was not represented accurately and I thought it best to set matters to rights.
Fr. Ambrose, that tree you're looking at...  it's part of a forest.  Try to see that this forest is not about you.

We are probably fortunate in this county in that we have one clerical tree in the vagante forest - a chap who was made priest by Mar Melchidezek of Nebraska.  But he is a nice sort of person.

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.
And yet this forest is not about you--it's about Heorhij's dispute with something Orthodoc said--so you've no need to derail this thread by defending yourself.  Yes, I am speaking as a moderator, since you've successfully hijacked this discussion with your petty defensiveness, and I need to get it back on track.
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2010, 07:41:26 AM »

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.
Which leaves me wondering how it is you allowed yourself to be taken over so much by ideology that you would see these persons as enemies to be fought and defeated, as though this were some kind of war.

There is no "as though." The war goes on.
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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2010, 07:43:56 AM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that. 


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

Orthodoc was here long before I joined OC.net. And there are other Moskvophiles here who have been here for ages (The Young Fogey). I don't care what you call me or how you choose to see me. It's war, period.
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2010, 08:34:08 AM »

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.

Thank you for informing me about yet another hostile act against Ukraine. You truly are my enemy, Father. I knew that. The more you inform me and others, the better.
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2010, 08:41:25 AM »

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.

Thank you for informing me about yet another hostile act against Ukraine. You truly are my enemy, Father. I knew that. The more you inform me and others, the better.

Heorhij,  I am really distressed that you are calling me your enemy, and distressed that you could think that helping Ukrainians to emigrate and have a much better lifestyle and well paid work in their professions is a hostile act.  Have a look in the Prayer section - I just placed a prayer there about all of us praying for one another.
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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2010, 09:07:00 AM »

Neither Constantinople, nor Rome nor Moscow wants anything good for Ukraine. We must recognize ourselves before anyone else will recognize us. It is historical fact that each autocephalous church went through a period of non-recognit...ion and then was recognized. For this reason, I support the UOC-KP and the UGCC which both have Ukraine's interests in mind. The UOC-MP, UOC-USA, and UAOC (Mefodiy) cannot be considered as supporting an independent united Kyivan Church by their actions and support of the above mentioned churches. Our people will wake up and will understand the difference in the very near future. Support those that support this great idea of a unified strong UNIFIED INDEPENDENT KYIVAN CHURCH.
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2010, 09:13:33 AM »

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.

Thank you for informing me about yet another hostile act against Ukraine. You truly are my enemy, Father. I knew that. The more you inform me and others, the better.

Heorhij,  I am really distressed that you are calling me your enemy, and distressed that you could think that helping Ukrainians to emigrate and have a much better lifestyle and well paid work in their professions is a hostile act.  Have a look in the Prayer section - I just placed a prayer there about all of us praying for one another.

Helping to imigrate is not a hostile act, but dragging them into a Russian parish where they will be told lies about their country and the UOC-KP is.
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 09:19:27 AM »

Neither Constantinople, nor Rome nor Moscow wants anything good for Ukraine. We must recognize ourselves before anyone else will recognize us. It is historical fact that each autocephalous church went through a period of non-recognit...ion and then was recognized. For this reason, I support the UOC-KP and the UGCC which both have Ukraine's interests in mind. The UOC-MP, UOC-USA, and UAOC (Mefodiy) cannot be considered as supporting an independent united Kyivan Church by their actions and support of the above mentioned churches. Our people will wake up and will understand the difference in the very near future. Support those that support this great idea of a unified strong UNIFIED INDEPENDENT KYIVAN CHURCH.

I agree wholeheartedly - and that's why I, although a member of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, merely for "territorial" reasons, - support UOC-KP "ideologically" as much as I can.

However, I believe that the reasons why Moscow will never support the Unified Independent Kyivan Church and the reasons why His All Holiness EP does not seem to support it are different. The antagonism between Moscow and Kyiv is "existential." It's either us or them. The non-acceptance of Ukraine by EP is merely politics.
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 09:19:46 AM »

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.

Thank you for informing me about yet another hostile act against Ukraine. You truly are my enemy, Father. I knew that. The more you inform me and others, the better.

Heorhij,  I am really distressed that you are calling me your enemy, and distressed that you could think that helping Ukrainians to emigrate and have a much better lifestyle and well paid work in their professions is a hostile act.  Have a look in the Prayer section - I just placed a prayer there about all of us praying for one another.

Helping to imigrate is not a hostile act, but dragging them into a Russian parish where they will be told lies about their country and the UOC-KP is.

The parish council --

1 Belarusian
1 Kazakh
2 Ukrainians
2 Chinese
1 Russian

Do you think you could get off the topic of me and my parish?  Why focus on me and make accusations? 
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 09:22:52 AM »

As for the forest "not being about me..." well, you're slightly incorrect.  Of the 300 families we brought to this parish by sponsoring them for immigration three of them were members of the Kyivan Patriarchate and so it was my work to integrate them into the parish - a parish which is a Russian parish with a large Ukrainian segment.  Thanks to the other Ukrainian families, new immigrants, this was made a lot easier.  I have first hand knowledge of helping some of the trees in this forest.

Thank you for informing me about yet another hostile act against Ukraine. You truly are my enemy, Father. I knew that. The more you inform me and others, the better.

Heorhij,  I am really distressed that you are calling me your enemy, and distressed that you could think that helping Ukrainians to emigrate and have a much better lifestyle and well paid work in their professions is a hostile act.  Have a look in the Prayer section - I just placed a prayer there about all of us praying for one another.

Helping to imigrate is not a hostile act, but dragging them into a Russian parish where they will be told lies about their country and the UOC-KP is.

The parish council --

1 Belarusian
1 Kazakh
2 Ukrainians
2 Chinese
1 Russian

Do you think you could get off the topic of me and my parish?  Why focus on me and make accusations? 

1. It makes no difference who is in the parish council. The jurisdiction is Russian and therefore hostile to Ukraine. The ethnic "Ukrainians" in that council are no more Ukrainians than you are or than a Martian would be.

2. The topic of all my posts to this thread is the same, i.e. that there is a systematic, well-organized hostility against my country on this forum. The OP is an example.
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 10:59:43 AM »


 Huh

Time out folks!

Count to 10 and let us try this again.

First of all, please don't assume that all Ukrainians hate all Russians, etc.  This thread makes us sound paranoid.  Granted we are suspicious and mistrust the Russian regime and their motives - with good reason.  However, the word "hate" is too strong.  We are taught not to hate anyone. 

However, mistrust is another thing.  When a dog bites your hand once, you make excuses for it...it didn't mean to, it was scared, etc.  When it bites your hand a second and third time...you stop making excuses and start to mistrust the dog.  You don't hate it, you simply wonder why it has that gleam in its eyes, and why is it showing it's teeth.  Therefore, even when the kids next door tell you it's truly a nice dog, (because they haven't been bitten - yet), you know better, and you are still suspicious, even when all your playmates ridicule you.  It's a matter of self preservation. 

Now, I am not calling Russia a dog.  It was just an example.  It could be a kitten that scratches, or a bird that pecks, or a grain of pollen that causes irritation, or a schoolyard bully that simply has it in for you.  The meaning is the same.

Heorhij, I know you truly don't "hate" and are simply upset.  The Lord teaches us to pray for people who are misguided and to calmly try to lead them along the path of righteousness.  Christ never beat sanity into anyone.  He simply taught and lectured and prayed.  For He knew that vile words and anger, would defeat His purpose. 

I pity all those who don't see the "truth" of the situation, and I pray that the Lord will enlighten them.  However, I am on the other hand glad that they don't see it, because that simply means they have been spared the pain and torture that our people have gone through.  It's a double edged sword.

I for one am 100% Ukrainian and feel the pain of my motherland, and I am sorry to say do mistrust Russian motives.  However, I know and love many people of Russian roots.  After all, they had no choice in picking their nationality!   Wink  Everyone can't be Ukrainian!

However, I am soooo sorry to admit to my Ukrainian brothers/sister, I do not trust Patriarch Filaret, either.  I don't trust his motives.  I don't trust the man.  I cannot put my trust in someone who eagerly denied Ukrainian sovereignty and identity, who worked for the KGB (real Ukrainians died and didn't collaborate), has a less than savory past, etc.  I love Ukraine, and she deserves a Patriarch worthy to lead her.  One who never tried to destroy her, only to change his mind and support her because it fits his goal.

Prove to me that he isn't still working on the side of the Russian church...by keeping the Ukrainian church in disarray and thereby, making the Moscow Patriarchate the only canonical church in the area and thereby, strengthening it's claim on Ukrainian territory.

I'm just saying....

However, I love all my Orthodox brothers and sisters - Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian, Polish, Greek, Serbian, etc.  Let's not allow our political and national interests to destroy the Love of Christ in us all.  Above all we love each other, and will work towards an understanding!

Lord, have mercy on us all!



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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2010, 11:36:14 AM »

Pani Lizo, - you are right. I do not really "hate" but I am very upset and angered.

There is nothing in me against things Russian as such. My two EQUALLY "first" languages are Ukrainian AND Russian. My parents spoke Russian, but they were both working very long hours when I was little, so I was raised mostly by my grandparents, and my grandfather spoke only Ukrainian (he lived to a good old age of 89, the last 45 years of his life in the extensively Russified capital of Ukraine, but, amazingly, could not learn to speak grammatic Russian). I read books for kids in both languages when I was 5-10 y.o., in roughly equal numbers. I admire Pushkin and Tolstoy as much as I admire Shevchenko and Kotsyubyns'kyj. If you look at our Slavic Languages board, you will see that I posted a lot of both Ukrainian and Russian poetry there.

But I am "cornered," like a wild beast, seeing how Putin's oil and gas empire continues to swallow my country, the land of my ancestors, and how the new cleptocratic clique in Ukraine is used by Putinoids to achieve their goals. And I was very, very upset when, in July 2008, while in my home city of Kyiv, I visited a UOC-MP church and got the impression that that church might as well be located in Ufa or Chelyabinsk or Ryazan'. On the other hand, my heart rejoices, SINGS, literally, when I am in a UOC-KP or in a UOAC parish where I feel with every cell of my body that I am among my people in the land of my ancestors, in Ukraine - the country that still exists, the country that wants to be friendly with Russia and yet be distinct of Russia, be herself! But then I am reminded, over, and over, and over again that these parishes are not really Church, they are not really Orthodox, they are schismatics, their Holy Mysteries are not real, etc. etc. etc., and my heart is crying with tears of blood, again and again and again.

Now, one other thing that hurts me, very deeply, is that people like Orthodoc can always "argue," look, I've been to Ukraine, I talked with Ukrainians, they are all very friendly with Russia, and in fact they really ARE Russians! They admit that their spoken language is Russian, not Ukrainian. Their cultural sympathies are with Moscow, not with Catholic Poland and not even with the Greek Catholic West of Ukraine. To which I say - and I know, the Orthodocs will not understand it, unfortunately... - YES, there are millions of people in Ukraine who are Russified to the bone, who have no memory of belonging to something that is not Russian or Russified; they are to Ukraine like Northern Irish ultra-Protestant "Orangists" to the patriotic Ireland, or worse. It's a tragedy of Ukraine. It has been successfully achieved after putting perhaps over ten million of Ukrainian peasants to slow, painful death by starvation in 1921, 1932-33 and 1946-47, and artificially populating the vacated land by "zabrody" (strangers) from Russia. By banning and exiling and shooting thousands and thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals in the 1930-s. By kidnapping and hanging Volodymyr Ivasyuk, a youth music idol who dared to refuse to sing in Russian, in 1973 and making it look like suicide. By constant, relentless, ruthless repression and persecution of everything Ukrainian (as "separatist") by the mighty forces that have been occupying my country for ages.

Some people in the West, including people on this forum (Ukiemeister) say that this is a victim's complex and that this only tires and irritates them. OK. I don't know how to do this job of defending Ukraine better. What's the alternative - admit that UOC-MP is really a "Ukrainian" Church, or that generally we all should just be Orthodox and forget about all these nationality-ethnicity idiocies (i.e. spit on our ancestors' graves)? No can do. So I will keep fighting the way I know how. When a post like the OP in this thread appears, I will call it a lie and the person who posted it a liar. When someone begins to sing this old and boring and hypocritical song about "un-canonicity" of UOC-KP, I will call him or her an agent of the Kremlin (yes, there are scores of them who ARE, even though they do not realize it). I might be a very bad Orthodox - I don't care. In fact, if Putin's Secretary of Religious Affairs (Patriarch +KIRILL) is Orthodox, I'd be happy to be a fire-worshipper or a Buddhist. There is nothing in common between him and me. In fact, he and I are just as antagonistic as a patriotic Greek of the first third of the 19th century and an Ottoman Turk, even though he claims to have the same "religion" as I.

That's how it is. There is war, and I have to fight it, or else I am a traitor and a nothing or something worse than nothing - a scum.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 11:38:56 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2010, 11:43:16 AM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

Note what I have put in bold lettering from my original post.  Over the years it has been claimed more  than once that the self proclaimed Patrairch Filaret has been negiotating with the UGCC to merge into one national Ukrainian Church who would recognize both Pope and Patriarch (EP).  Now, those of us who know enough to realize this is either propaganda or wishful thinking on the part of UGCC church, take it for what it is....propaganda!  But many who read it each time its posted believe it.  THAT'S WHY I ASKED FOR A TRANSLATION  WHICH IS WRITTEN IN UKRAINIAN THAT THE CLAIM WAS BASED ON!  My remark to George was perhaps a little flipant, but its a fair question to ask someone who has both threatened to spit in my face if we ever met  and accused me of being a PAID KGB-FSB agent!!!!  So, once again, IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?  A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Orthodoc

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« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 11:45:18 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2010, 12:04:49 PM »

I'm sorry Heorhij, but I disagree with you. Not supporting the UOC-KP ≠ support of Russia. If a Ukrainian happens to attend a Russian Orthodox parish in the Diaspora, it is not because they are an "enemy of the state." It is most likely because a UOC parish is not available to them, and they feel more comfortable in a Russian parish than a Greek or Antiochian one. Glory to God that they are continuing in their Orthodox faith, instead of letting nationalism drive them to a Catholic or Protestant Church! Glory to God for people like Father Ambrose, who work to make them feel at home in their new homeland! Glory to God that there are Orthodox parishes in the Diaspora to serve their spiritual needs!

You know that I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, and that I support His All Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch. It is because I support His All Holiness that I cannot in good conscience support the KP.

I may be Ukrainian, but I am an Orthodox Christian first. On the dread judgement seat of Christ, I will not be judged for my love of vareniky, but for my love of Christ and His Church. His One, True, Holy, Apostolic Church. Not it's "satellite affiliates."  Wink

While I pray for the day when Ukraine has an autocepholous church, that day will come when the Patriarchs of Orthodoxy deem it to be so. More importantly, when GOD deems it to be so.

May the Lord have mercy on Ukraine!



In regards to the OP, if you want to read an article that is in a foreign language, simply go to Google Translate, enter the URL of the website you want translated (you can choose Detect Language if you are unsure of what language needs to be translated) and it will translate the website for you.

Perhaps by doing so in the future will prevent such inflammatory threads.

Hugs and kisses,  Kiss

Maureen
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2010, 12:09:09 PM »

OK, I apologize if my remark was taken as an accusation of Orthodoc in a deliberate lying. But, anyway, by posting what he posted, he is objectively spreading a lie.
Yes, I do get the impression from Orthodoc's OP that he was not merely asking for a translation of the article to make sure it says what he thought it says.  It does appear to me that he was trying to antagonize you by stating emphatically his assertion from reading the article that Patriarch Filaret wants to join the UGCC.  From my reading of that and other articles on this matter, I get the idea that Patriarch Filaret sees hope for movement in the exact opposite direction, that the UGCC would join the UOC-KP and become Orthodox.

I think he should recall or retract his post, because, again, I have already seen people write that "Filaret threatens to join UGCC," and providing the link to Orthodoc's original post as a "proof."
Maybe he should recant his assertions, but I also see in this a readiness among many to accept without critical thought Orthodoc's word on this article that is not at all admirable.  Why is Orthodoc so credible an authority on matters of import to Ukrainians that we should accept his word without question?

I see something like a "party" or "faction" here on OC.net, a "party" of posters who admire the Russian Orthodox Church and are very unsympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are Irish Hermit, Ialmisry, Orthodoc, Stashko, to some extent Robb, and maybe others whose posts I do not see that often. These people will pick up anything that glorifies Moscow (at least in their eyes) and praise that, and, similarly, they will pick up anything that Moscow dislikes and criticises, and show their dislike of that. They, for example, are ready to call His All Holiness a Green Pope, and say that he is "pro-abortion." Not surprising at all that they will throw dirt at Ukrainian "nationalists" - "schismatics" - "clandestine Catholics" etc. (as those are Moscow's number one bitterest enemy).

It's a war, an ideological war. It has started long time ago, and it is extremely ruthless, and it does not seem to be any less intense. I have no idea why these people are waging this war. At a personal level, I find them - particularly Irish hermit and Ialmisry - very well-educated, erudite, logical, interesting, kind, well-wishing. But I cannot NOT see in them a certain force that is hostile to me, to things I hold dear, believe in. They are a party of my adversaries, enemies.

But the way that you talk and the things you post end up coming off as the same things as Isa or IH or Orthodoc, just on the other end of the spectrum. If I were to turn around what you said, it would end up being something like this:

I see something like a rogue poster here on OC.net, a poster who despises the Russian Orthodox Church and is very sympathetic to the Ecumenical Patriarch. This is Heorhij. This person will trash and bash anything that remotely related to Russia (at least in his eyes) and despise that and similarly they will pick up anything that is against or destructive towards Russia and show their support of that. 


Now how are you going to call out that group of posters when you are the same, but merely on the opposite side of the fence?

-Nick

Orthodoc was here long before I joined OC.net. And there are other Moskvophiles here who have been here for ages (The Young Fogey). I don't care what you call me or how you choose to see me. It's war, period.

I'm not calling you anything, I'm simply trying to make you see that you are no different than the posters you mentioned you just happen to be on the other side of the spectrum. I was here long before you also, and I would consider myself of the same mind as the group you mentioned. I think that you are so wrapped up in your Ukrainian Nationalism you forget to take the Ukrainian blinders off. Are you an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent or a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox? One of those is the correct path, but I myself fear you are the one on the incorrect path.

-Nick
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2010, 12:38:04 PM »

Handmaiden  “You know that I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, and that I support His All Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch. It is because I support His All Holiness that I cannot in good conscience support the KP.”

How can you support the ecumenical Patriarch instead of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP if you also say “While I pray for the day when Ukraine has an autocepholous church, that day will come when the Patriarchs of Orthodoxy deem it to be so. More importantly, when GOD deems it to be so.

First off Ukraine has an independent church independent of Moscow and Constantinople. UOCUSA bishops Constantine and Antony were members of this church up until 1994. It was Patriarch Mstyslav of blessed memory who formed the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church and was her first Patriarch. It was only after Archbishop Antony of the UOCUSA was not elected Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP that the hierarchs signed the agreement abandoning authocephally and abandoning the Ukrainian Church in order to gain canonical recognition by Constantinople and the titular titles. After this union, Archbishop Vsevelod brought his 10 parishes and joined with the UOCUSA. 15 years later what have the hierarchs in the UOCUSA done to help bring canonical regonition to the Ukrainian church in Ukraine? Absolutley nothing as part of the agreement of coming under the omphoron of Constantinople was to RENOUNCE autocephaly.

Now Liza, I have read many of your postings and you seem like a sweet and respectful woman but I have been baffled by some of your logic.
 
Liza quote “However, I am soooo sorry to admit to my Ukrainian brothers/sister, I do not trust Patriarch Filaret, either.  I don't trust his motives.  I don't trust the man.  I cannot put my trust in someone who eagerly denied Ukrainian sovereignty and identity, who worked for the KGB (real Ukrainians died and didn't collaborate), has a less than savory past, etc.  I love Ukraine, and she deserves a Patriarch worthy to lead her.  One who never tried to destroy her, only to change his mind and support her because it fits his goal.

First off, any clergy that was allowed to serve before 1991 in Ukraine was Russian Orthodox as the Ukrainian Church was outlawed. Secondly, the rumor that Filaret worked for the KGB is just a rumor spun by the Russians and Russian supporters to discredit him. You say that you support a Patriarch who is worthy to lead Ukraine. Was not Patriarch Mstyslav or Patriarch Volodymyr who preceded Filaret not worthy? Perhaps Filaret is not the man that Mstyslav or Volodymyr were but he IS the successor.

At this time The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate has approximately 40 hierarchs, over 4000 parishes in Ukraine alone and 29 Eparchies in the various regions of Ukraine.  It also has parishes throughout Europe (Germany, Greece, Moldova etc.) and The Vicariate of The USA and Canada.
The Patriarchate has functioning educational centers such as The Kyiv and Lviv Theological Academies, seminaries in Lutsk and Rivne, a Theological Institute in Ivano-Frankivsk, and an accredited Philosophical and Theological curriculum at The National University of Chernivtsi. 
The Patriarchate has the support of over 10 million faithful in Ukraine. (In comparison The Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine has the support of approximately 5 million faithful in Ukraine) In December of 2006 in the Capital Of Ukraine Kyiv, a public news poll found 52% of those asked were supporters of The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate and only 8% aligned themselves with The Moscow Patriarchate.

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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2010, 12:45:22 PM »

Handmaiden  “You know that I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, and that I support His All Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch. It is because I support His All Holiness that I cannot in good conscience support the KP.”

How can you support the ecumenical Patriarch instead of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP if you also say “While I pray for the day when Ukraine has an autocepholous church, that day will come when the Patriarchs of Orthodoxy deem it to be so. More importantly, when GOD deems it to be so.

First off Ukraine has an independent church independent of Moscow and Constantinople. UOCUSA bishops Constantine and Antony were members of this church up until 1994. It was Patriarch Mstyslav of blessed memory who formed the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church and was her first Patriarch. It was only after Archbishop Antony of the UOCUSA was not elected Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP that the hierarchs signed the agreement abandoning authocephally and abandoning the Ukrainian Church in order to gain canonical recognition by Constantinople and the titular titles. After this union, Archbishop Vsevelod brought his 10 parishes and joined with the UOCUSA. 15 years later what have the hierarchs in the UOCUSA done to help bring canonical regonition to the Ukrainian church in Ukraine? Absolutley nothing as part of the agreement of coming under the omphoron of Constantinople was to RENOUNCE autocephaly.

The UOC-KP is not part of Worlwide Orthodoxy. It is not part of the One, True, Holy, Apostolic Church set up by Christ on the day of Pentecost.

It is a wanna-be Orthodox.

You are either part of Holy Orthodoxy, or you are not. You either believe in the Apostolic succession of the Patriarchs, or you don't.

It's that simple.

Philaret is a Bishop wanna-be.

I don't support "wanna-be's", I support authentic Bishops.

Furthermore, what +ArchBiship ANTONY does has nothing to do with Philaret. ANTONY was wise enough to bring the UOC-USA into communion with Worldwide Orthodoxy.

You are correct, Ukraine does have an independent Church. That Church is neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox as it is not in communion with Rome or Constantinople. It is just a wanna-be.
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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2010, 05:11:57 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

Note what I have put in bold lettering from my original post.

Why don't you put in bold the PRECEDING sentence? I am asking because it is this preceding sentence and not the one you put in bold that was already quoted on this forum as a "proof" that Patr. +FILARET threatened (whom?) to "join" UGCC.

So, once again, IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?  A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Of course no, but this can never happen as you most certainly understand. And again, Patr. +FILARET NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE HAS ANY PLANS TO MERGE HIS JURISDICTION WITH UGCC. WHAT HE SAID IS THAT HE CAN ENVISION THAT IN THE FUTURE UKRAINIAN EASTERN RITE CATHOLICS MIGHT RETURN TO THEIR MOTHER CHURCH, THE UNIFIED UKRAINIAN (or KYIVAN) ORTHODOX CHURCH. He also said, by the by, that he knows some people inside the UGCC who also think that this might happen in the future. Of course, this would be possible only if our Eastern Rite Catholic brothers and sisters reject whatever Vatican innovations they were taught to believe (incidentally, perhaps ~90% or more of them are simply unaware of those innovations, believe it or not.)
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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2010, 05:16:01 PM »

Are you an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent or a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox?

I am afraid you do not understand. I am neither. I am not of any descent. I am a Ukrainian and I am an Orthodox Christian. Asking me am I a someone of some descent or an Orthodox makes no sense; and even if you correct your question, making it into "are you a Ukrainian or an Orthodox," it would still make no sense. It would be like asking, whom do you really love, your mother or your wife.
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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2010, 06:31:28 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

Note what I have put in bold lettering from my original post.

Why don't you put in bold the PRECEDING sentence? I am asking because it is this preceding sentence and not the one you put in bold that was already quoted on this forum as a "proof" that Patr. +FILARET threatened (whom?) to "join" UGCC.

So, once again, IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?  A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Of course no, but this can never happen as you most certainly understand. And again, Patr. +FILARET NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE HAS ANY PLANS TO MERGE HIS JURISDICTION WITH UGCC. WHAT HE SAID IS THAT HE CAN ENVISION THAT IN THE FUTURE UKRAINIAN EASTERN RITE CATHOLICS MIGHT RETURN TO THEIR MOTHER CHURCH, THE UNIFIED UKRAINIAN (or KYIVAN) ORTHODOX CHURCH. He also said, by the by, that he knows some people inside the UGCC who also think that this might happen in the future. Of course, this would be possible only if our Eastern Rite Catholic brothers and sisters reject whatever Vatican innovations they were taught to believe (incidentally, perhaps ~90% or more of them are simply unaware of those innovations, believe it or not.)

Thank you!  That is all you had to answer in the first place.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2010, 06:52:34 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

Note what I have put in bold lettering from my original post.

Why don't you put in bold the PRECEDING sentence? I am asking because it is this preceding sentence and not the one you put in bold that was already quoted on this forum as a "proof" that Patr. +FILARET threatened (whom?) to "join" UGCC.

So, once again, IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?  A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Of course no, but this can never happen as you most certainly understand. And again, Patr. +FILARET NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE HAS ANY PLANS TO MERGE HIS JURISDICTION WITH UGCC. WHAT HE SAID IS THAT HE CAN ENVISION THAT IN THE FUTURE UKRAINIAN EASTERN RITE CATHOLICS MIGHT RETURN TO THEIR MOTHER CHURCH, THE UNIFIED UKRAINIAN (or KYIVAN) ORTHODOX CHURCH. He also said, by the by, that he knows some people inside the UGCC who also think that this might happen in the future. Of course, this would be possible only if our Eastern Rite Catholic brothers and sisters reject whatever Vatican innovations they were taught to believe (incidentally, perhaps ~90% or more of them are simply unaware of those innovations, believe it or not.)

Thank you!  That is all you had to answer in the first place.

Orthodoc

But I would do it (i.e. give the short version of the text in English) if there were no preceding sentence in your original messsage, "Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!" To the question, "IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?" I would say, "yes, because I certainly do look forward to Eastern Rite Catholics returning to their native Orthodox fold." However, with your sentence, "Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!" - my "yes" would mean that I support the alleged threat allegedly expressed by Patr. +FILARET that his jurisdiction, by his decree, will join the currently existing UGCC.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 06:53:16 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2010, 03:43:28 PM »

Are you an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent or a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox?

I am afraid you do not understand. I am neither. I am not of any descent. I am a Ukrainian and I am an Orthodox Christian. Asking me am I a someone of some descent or an Orthodox makes no sense; and even if you correct your question, making it into "are you a Ukrainian or an Orthodox," it would still make no sense. It would be like asking, whom do you really love, your mother or your wife.


There is indeed a difference, you just can't understand the difference. Being an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent puts the church first, the nationalist identity second (as it should be). Being a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox puts the nationalist identity first and the church second. You sir, are most definitely a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox.

-Nick
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2010, 04:03:48 PM »

Are you an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent or a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox?

I am afraid you do not understand. I am neither. I am not of any descent. I am a Ukrainian and I am an Orthodox Christian. Asking me am I a someone of some descent or an Orthodox makes no sense; and even if you correct your question, making it into "are you a Ukrainian or an Orthodox," it would still make no sense. It would be like asking, whom do you really love, your mother or your wife.


There is indeed a difference, you just can't understand the difference. Being an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent puts the church first, the nationalist identity second (as it should be). Being a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox puts the nationalist identity first and the church second. You sir, are most definitely a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox.

-Nick

And you, sir, are definitely God because you can read my heart.

I do not put my national identity first or second. I just have it. Again, I refuse to answer the question, whom I love more, my mother or my wife. I love my mother. I love my wife. I am an Orthodox. I am a Ukrainian.
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2010, 04:11:42 PM »

Are you an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent or a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox?

I am afraid you do not understand. I am neither. I am not of any descent. I am a Ukrainian and I am an Orthodox Christian. Asking me am I a someone of some descent or an Orthodox makes no sense; and even if you correct your question, making it into "are you a Ukrainian or an Orthodox," it would still make no sense. It would be like asking, whom do you really love, your mother or your wife.


There is indeed a difference, you just can't understand the difference. Being an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent puts the church first, the nationalist identity second (as it should be). Being a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox puts the nationalist identity first and the church second. You sir, are most definitely a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox.

-Nick

So by your logic, there should be no national orthodox churches, there should be no Bulgarian Orthodox or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian? If there is to be no nationalist identification with the Orthodox Church, why don’t we just have 1 Orthodox Church in Constantinople with a college of bishops like the Catholics have? It seems there is a push on this board to make the orthodox Church similar in administration to the Catholics. I am a member of the Ukrainian orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate. If there we no Ukrainian Church, I would go to another orthodox church ( Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) Admiralnick, you shouldn’t chastise Ukrainians for wanting their own national church when other nations much smaller have their own. Yes at the present moment we are not recognized by the rest of worldwide orthodoxy for mainly political reasons. There is nothing different in our services than say a Greek or Russian orthodox service other than the language used and the asking to bless out Patriarch and clergy. I find the amount of childish Ukrainaphobia ( yes I am making up a word but you get the point) on this board ridiculous. Herhorij has every right to support a national Ukrainian Orthodox Church just as Romanians have the right to support their’s and Bulgarian’s support their own national churches.
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2010, 04:24:30 PM »

Are you an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent or a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox?

I am afraid you do not understand. I am neither. I am not of any descent. I am a Ukrainian and I am an Orthodox Christian. Asking me am I a someone of some descent or an Orthodox makes no sense; and even if you correct your question, making it into "are you a Ukrainian or an Orthodox," it would still make no sense. It would be like asking, whom do you really love, your mother or your wife.


There is indeed a difference, you just can't understand the difference. Being an Orthodox of Ukrainian descent puts the church first, the nationalist identity second (as it should be). Being a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox puts the nationalist identity first and the church second. You sir, are most definitely a Ukrainian who happens to be Orthodox.

-Nick

So by your logic, there should be no national orthodox churches, there should be no Bulgarian Orthodox or Romanian or Serbian or Georgian? If there is to be no nationalist identification with the Orthodox Church, why don’t we just have 1 Orthodox Church in Constantinople with a college of bishops like the Catholics have? It seems there is a push on this board to make the orthodox Church similar in administration to the Catholics. I am a member of the Ukrainian orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate. If there we no Ukrainian Church, I would go to another orthodox church ( Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) Admiralnick, you shouldn’t chastise Ukrainians for wanting their own national church when other nations much smaller have their own. Yes at the present moment we are not recognized by the rest of worldwide orthodoxy for mainly political reasons. There is nothing different in our services than say a Greek or Russian orthodox service other than the language used and the asking to bless out Patriarch and clergy. I find the amount of childish Ukrainaphobia ( yes I am making up a word but you get the point) on this board ridiculous. Herhorij has every right to support a national Ukrainian Orthodox Church just as Romanians have the right to support their’s and Bulgarian’s support their own national churches.

Thank you for your support. However, the word "Ukrainophobia" is not made up by you. It is real and reflects a very real thing. I see Ukrainophobia in numerous messages that come from Russia, and also from various people influenced by Russia. Ukrainophobia can take different forms. Sometimes it is rabid and utterly silly, like in posts of our fellow OC.net-ter Robb who writes that Ukrainians are in fact Russians. Sometimes it is somewhat "milder," like in posts by Ialmisry where he presents "facts" from Soviet encyclopedias or carefully "doctored" mediaeval chronicles as the final truth witnessing to the profound sharing of "roots" by Ukrainians and Russians. Sometimes Ukrainophobia is involuntary, and manifests simply as repetition of PC lies, like the lie that Bandera collaborated with Nazis and is guilty of genocide. The sad thing is, Ukrainophobia in any shape or form, rabid or mild, voluntary or involuntary, finds a fertile ground in hearts of Westerners, including Americans, who feel a more general phobia, something I'd call Occidentophobia. It perhaps has to do with their inferiority complex. They have tried a number of Christian "denominations" and found them, for whatever reason, threatening: too liberal, too contradicting their conservative idiosyncrasies. So, they turn to Orthodoxy and to the mythical Holy Mother Russia as the Third Rome, the sustainer-defender of their newly found superconservative "faith..." "Nationalistic" Ukraine is something that bothers these people because she "opposes" this mythical Holy Mother Russia and leans to the West.
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2010, 04:27:14 PM »

From the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum -

Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!  Since I don't read Ukrainian perhaps George or someone else can give a short version translation of this post?  So much for the Orthodoxy of a man who goes from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnight.  Now he threats to join the UGCC!

Will you support him in this George?http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/order/?id=885861

=====================

Orthodoc

Note what I have put in bold lettering from my original post.

Why don't you put in bold the PRECEDING sentence? I am asking because it is this preceding sentence and not the one you put in bold that was already quoted on this forum as a "proof" that Patr. +FILARET threatened (whom?) to "join" UGCC.

So, once again, IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?  A simple YES or NO will suffice.

Of course no, but this can never happen as you most certainly understand. And again, Patr. +FILARET NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE HAS ANY PLANS TO MERGE HIS JURISDICTION WITH UGCC. WHAT HE SAID IS THAT HE CAN ENVISION THAT IN THE FUTURE UKRAINIAN EASTERN RITE CATHOLICS MIGHT RETURN TO THEIR MOTHER CHURCH, THE UNIFIED UKRAINIAN (or KYIVAN) ORTHODOX CHURCH. He also said, by the by, that he knows some people inside the UGCC who also think that this might happen in the future. Of course, this would be possible only if our Eastern Rite Catholic brothers and sisters reject whatever Vatican innovations they were taught to believe (incidentally, perhaps ~90% or more of them are simply unaware of those innovations, believe it or not.)

Thank you!  That is all you had to answer in the first place.

Orthodoc

But I would do it (i.e. give the short version of the text in English) if there were no preceding sentence in your original messsage, "Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!" To the question, "IF the UOC_KP and the UGCC became one united church under Pope & Patriarch, would you remain loyal to so called Patriarch Filaret George?" I would say, "yes, because I certainly do look forward to Eastern Rite Catholics returning to their native Orthodox fold." However, with your sentence, "Self proclaimed Patriarch Filaret now threating to join the UGCC!" - my "yes" would mean that I support the alleged threat allegedly expressed by Patr. +FILARET that his jurisdiction, by his decree, will join the currently existing UGCC.

George:  

Mind explaining to us how an Orthodox can profess allegiance to both POPE and Patriarch and still remain Orthodox?  

Orthodoc
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