Topic: Western post-1054 Orthodoxy

[Father Peter]

I will ask him tomorrow by email and see if he will answer.

PT

[Ebor]

I am not trying to give you a hard time, Subdn. Peter.  I am trying to do good History, as I learnt from scholars I know, including one who holds a Doctorate in Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse.  And there are many cases of people making claims for history that aren't true.  The Mormon claim that American Indians were the 12 lost tribes of Israel, or I once heard a person claim that "3000 years ago, Pagans and Christians worshipped side by side".  Dates and places and real history matter.  Because Jesus wasn't some figure from an nebulous 'long ago'.  He came to a Place and a Time in History.

Ebor

[Father Peter]

Don't worry, I don't believe in bad history at all, and to be honest I think that Vladimir Moss and I have different agendas even if we have an interest in the same period.

[Ebor]

Something that occurred to me and I haven't been able to find out.  Subdn. Peter mentioned a Fr. John Romanides who  (I gather from what I found) either started, or his works are found at a site called "Romanity".  I tried to find a biography or what his qualifications are for writing about History, but I haven't been able to find a biography on line.  I gather that he wrote books, but what else is known?

Thanks

Ebor

[sdcheung]

Father John S Romanides was a Great man.
His qualifications are Loyalty to Romiosini, Loyalty to Orthodox Traditionalism, Loyalty to resisting ecumenism.

Memory Eternal to him..

[Ebor]

Loyalty is an admirable thing.  But I wasn't asking about his personal virtues and attributes.  Was he a scholar of history?  If so, what period and what area?  Where was he educated?

Thank you.

Ebor

[sdcheung]

He was
Byzantine-Tourkokratic Era
Greece, and Orthodox Near-East

[Keble]

Father John S Romanides was a Great man.
His qualifications are Loyalty to Romiosini, Loyalty to Orthodox Traditionalism, Loyalty to resisting ecumenism.

I believe you may be listing his disqualifications.

[sdcheung]

Those are his Qualifications
I regard adherence to Romiosini to be a qualifier

[carpo-rusyn]

Pardon this westerner's ignorance but what is "Romiosini"?


Carpo-Rusyn

[Ebor]

I was wondering that myself, Carpo, and what I've found on a google says that it's "Hellenism in the Middle Ages".  I found this on Greece.org

Why that subject would make one knowledgeable of the Anglo-Saxons I do not know.

Ebor

[Ebor]

I'm glad to see your post, CP. I was wondering if I had put readers of the thread into a coma with my dates and manuscript references and all.
I know that many people do not find the Anglo-Saxons and Norse as fascinating as I do.

I'm been looking up more references btw.  

Ebor

[carpo-rusyn]

[Why that subject would make one knowledgeable of the Anglo-Saxons]

Oh come on Ebor.  We've seen that by the actions of St Augustine baptizing the Saxons they really came under the Emperor in New Rome.  It's obvious that in another article Dr R will point out that the Saxons are really Greeks.  Not only did their baptism bring them under the Emperor but also made them Greek.  I'm sure the AS Chronicle is best read in the original Greek.  Think of it if it wouldn't have been for William winning at Hastings then Saxons would be reputed as the best diners in the world.

CR

[Tony]

Carpo,

I always knew Stonehenge was really the ruins of a Temple of Diana.  

In Christ,
Anthony

[Why that subject would make one knowledgeable of the Anglo-Saxons]

Oh come on Ebor.  We've seen that by the actions of St Augustine baptizing the Saxons they really came under the Emperor in New Rome.  It's obvious that in another article Dr R will point out that the Saxons are really Greeks.  Not only did their baptism bring them under the Emperor but also made them Greek.  I'm sure the AS Chronicle is best read in the original Greek.  Think of it if it wouldn't have been for William winning at Hastings then Saxons would be reputed as the best diners in the world.

CR

[Ebor]

[Why that subject would make one knowledgeable of the Anglo-Saxons]

Oh come on Ebor.  We've seen that by the actions of St Augustine baptizing the Saxons they really came under the Emperor in New Rome.  It's obvious that in another article Dr R will point out that the Saxons are really Greeks.  Not only did their baptism bring them under the Emperor but also made them Greek.  I'm sure the AS Chronicle is best read in the original Greek.  Think of it if it wouldn't have been for William winning at Hastings then Saxons would be reputed as the best diners in the world.

CR

It's a good thing I wasn't drinking some coffee when I read that, or I might not have a working keyboard now!!!  Have you ever read "Asterix in Great Britain"?  I ask because I'm wondering if those diners would serve souvlaki with mint sauce....

About a year and a half ago, on the EO newsgroup there was a chap who was maintaining that all european languages and culture were originally from Greece.  It was when he said that Chaucer was written in Old English. When he was told that it was in "Middle English" his responce was Oh right, like they would speak in Middle Earth!  (To quote Dave Barry "I swear I am not making this up.")  It was then pointed out that Middle Earth had its languages courtesy of Professor Tolkein.  But I digress.

Ebor

[Father Peter]

I wouldn't have thought that one had to be a Dr of a particular period of history to be able to right an article about that period? There is a difference between writing about the use of the letter t in Middle English adjectival sentence constructions, and writing a more general historical article expressing theological points.

I think that Fr John Romanides of blessed memory was one of those folk who was genuinely gifted in many areas, and I wish I could have met him.

PT

[Keble]

Those are his Qualifications
I regard adherence to Romiosini to be a qualifier

Well, it qualifies him as an apologist.

[Ebor]

I wouldn't have thought that one had to be a Dr of a particular period of history to be able to right an article about that period? There is a difference between writing about the use of the letter t in Middle English adjectival sentence constructions, and writing a more general historical article expressing theological points.

I think that Fr John Romanides of blessed memory was one of those folk who was genuinely gifted in many areas, and I wish I could have met him.

PT

Anyone can write an article about anything if they are so inclined.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they understand the subject or are totally correct. William Shockley, a co-inventor of the transistor, was an expert in aspects of physics and electronics and won a Nobel Prize for his work in that field.  When he decided to hold forth on the subject of genetics and eugenics, he was, trying to be charitable, not anywhere near as knowledgeable, and was wrong.

(Interestingly enough, on the "Romanity" site are more works by Mr. Moss including ones on "Science" and "Genetics re the Antichrist" in which one of his cited sources is "Dr. Henry Morris" of the Creation Science Institute.  A cursory scan makes for dubious reading.)  

You know who this Fr. John Romanides was, apparently.  I do not. I have tried to find some information about him, but so far haven't found much. Being an expert on "Byzantine-Tourkokratic Era
Greece, and Orthodox Near-East" ( "Tourkokratic"?  I gather this means Greece under the Ottomans/Turks, so does this mean his subject was Greece from roughly the 300's to the 1800's?) doesn't necessarily mean that his understanding of England in the same period is correct.

I am no doctor of history, nor have I ever claimed such.  But I try to back up my points with sources that others can read.  If the Bereans "searched the scriptures to see if these things were true" why should we not do the same for historical documentation to see if someone's theories have any basis?

Ebor

[Father Peter]

Father John Romanides is probably as well known and considered as Frs Meyendorff and Schmemann.

The Vladimir Moss material has turned up fairly recently on romanity. I don't know who runs it since Fr John Romanides died.

[Αριστοκλής]

Pardon this westerner's ignorance but what is "Romiosini"?


Carpo-Rusyn

"The Romans"

[Ebor]

Father John Romanides is probably as well known and considered as Frs Meyendorff and Schmemann.

Well, I'm starting to google and there are many more web pages that mention Fr.s Meyendorff and Schmemman than Romanides, but I have found that he was American who was a professor in Greece.  

The Vladimir Moss material has turned up fairly recently on romanity. I don't know who runs it since Fr John Romanides died.

Well, that's a question then. Who is now running "Romanity"? and then Why put up all the Moss works?  People generally put up things that they like or agree with or that serve (to use your word) an agenda.  

This could take some slogging.  
Trying to stay on the thread subject,

Ebor

[Ebor]

"The Romans"

But apparently not "Romans" as in Augustus Ceasar, the Legions, the Eternal City etc, but Hellenism...

Ebor

[Linus7]

Ebor: I know that many people do not find the Anglo-Saxons and Norse as fascinating as I do.

I am sure that I do.

I just never concerned myself with the ecclesiastical aspects of their history, so in that area I am not qualified to say much.

I have always been more interested in the Germanic peoples before they got themselves baptized than afterwards.

Anyway, I do share your interest in the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse and find your posts very interesting.

[Ebor]

Thank you, Linus. That is very kind of you to say and I appreciate it.

I hold that it is important to learn of history as it was (to the best of our abilities) and not take bits and make them say what suits a personal view or belief.  There's too much of that, particularly in trying to support political or religious views.  I've been looking over a 'popular' book, that seems to have been driving by the "DaViinci Code" (Which some people don't seem to get is *Fiction*) that is a morass of names and dates and happenings.  It says (to give an example) that Joseph of Arimathea had a daughter who came to England and married "Bran the Blessed".   In Welsh legend Bran is the son of Mannannan mac Lir, the sea god.  

The point of the book is the "blood line" of Jesus and His descendents and how the nasty patriarchal church has tried to stop it all.   I state here that *I* do not believe any of this.  A friend and I are analyzing the book in order to explain how it's Bad History and wrong to some others who apparently are amazed by it.  *SIGH*

Anyway.  Thanks for the encouragement and I'll try to not lose my head entirely and start off on lengthy discourses on Bede or the "Heimskringla" (though if you want to know about St. Olaf winning a dice game, it's a great story and a friend made a song about it.   )

Ebor

[carpo-rusyn]

["The Romans"]

Ah so that's what that means.  I must've missed that in my copy of Caesar's "Commentaries".  I shall inform the Vatican.  Would everyone on this forum please refer to the Church previously known as the Roman Catholic Church as the Romiosinian Catholic Church.  We'll work on getting the stationary changed.  What wan't this in Shakespeare (probably another secret Greek)  "Oh Romiosini, Romiosini wherefore art thou Romiosini?"

Thank You

CR

[Linus7]

["The Romans"]

Ah so that's what that means.  I must've missed that in my copy of Caesar's "Commentaries".  I shall inform the Vatican.  Would everyone on this forum please refer to the Church previously known as the Roman Catholic Church as the Romiosinian Catholic Church.  We'll work on getting the stationary changed.  What wan't this in Shakespeare (probably another secret Greek)  "Oh Romiosini, Romiosini wherefore art thou Romiosini?"

Thank You

CR

Is that like Abyssinian?

What about the Russinians and the Bulgarinians?  

[sdcheung]

["The Romans"]

Ah so that's what that means.  I must've missed that in my copy of Caesar's "Commentaries".  I shall inform the Vatican.  Would everyone on this forum please refer to the Church previously known as the Roman Catholic Church as the Romiosinian Catholic Church.  We'll work on getting the stationary changed.  What wan't this in Shakespeare (probably another secret Greek)  "Oh Romiosini, Romiosini wherefore art thou Romiosini?"

Thank You

CR

You Know the Orthodox Church is the Roman Catholic Church.
The Followers of the Pope of Rome can call tehmselves.."The Vatican Religion".

The Word Roman now belongs to the Greeks, as Romaioi, Romaiikos, and as Romiosini..

Thank You

[Keble]

The Word Roman now belongs to the Greeks, as Romaioi, Romaiikos, and as Romiosini..

And I own the Brooklyn Bridge.

[sdcheung]

You can have it the Bridge.
Let the Greeks have Roman.

[Mor Ephrem]

Oh good grief, not this again...

[Tony]

What bearing does being truly Roman have to to with Christianity, Orthodox or otherwise? The Roman Empire is gone and most likely won't come back any time soon. Besides, I always thought Romans were people who actually lived in the city of Rome.

In Christ,
Anthony

[Ebor]

Oh good grief, not this again...

You've seen this before, Mor?  Googling over the weekend was the first time I'd come across "Romans are really Greek".  

Ebor

[Mor Ephrem]

I've heard the argument before, even in a class I took on the history of the Byzantine Empire.  I don't have a problem with saying that "Romans are really Greek", understood in the right context, since the Greeks in the Eastern Roman Empire didn't consider themselves any less "Roman" than actual Romans (acc. to my professor).  I just have a problem when people say stuff like "The (Eastern) Orthodox Church is the real Roman Catholic Church".  Who cares?  It only makes things more confusing.

[Αριστοκλής]

But apparently not "Romans" as in Augustus Ceasar, the Legions, the Eternal City etc, but Hellenism...

Ebor

Ebor, my friend, you've read too much Gibbon who blithely dismisses about 1000 years of Roman Imperial history by virtually ignoring Constantinople. My read of Fr Romanides history says he's on the right(er) track, but he may overshoot the  reality as well. "Hellenism" began long before the coming of Christ and was the result of Alexander the Great's campaign to merge the cultures (Greek and eastern) in his new empire. Thus was born Koine Greek. As much as the citizens of the modern state of Hellas wish to connect with classical Homeric "Greeks", they truly view themselves with justification as decendents of the Roman Empire. There were more Greek speakers in the early Roman Empire than Latin-speakers outright. Once the capital was moved to New Rome, the Hellenized locals of course used Greek as their language. Latin was basically used for legal documents and the senate's business.
In fact, the only real criteria for Roman citizenship in the east was 1) be  a Greek speaker and 2) profess faith in the "orthodox Catholic Church".
I can dig up some non-Orthodox and non-Roman Catholic (in other words, secular) histories if you would like.
If you mean "Roman" as only the Rome of the Caesars, well, despite being a big city, Rome was pretty small comparatively speaking.

{Warning: this post probably contains numerous typos which can't be edited}

Demetri

[Amadeus]

This must have been inspired by this short manifesto:

"Laying claim on the Phanar since 9 December 2003!"

AmdG

[carpo-rusyn]

[The Word Roman now belongs to the Greeks, as Romaioi, Romaiikos, and as Romiosini.]

Was there a coup while I was at work?  The Greeks have hijacked the word Roman!!!!  But that's ok though because following recent logic as regards the baptism of Ethelbert the current Pope is Greek as am I (whose family tree is planted in Ireland) and all RC's.  

Carpo-Rusyn

[Father Peter]

Well I don't know about hijacking it, but I thought that in the Middle East the EO's were known as Rum Orthodox, and always have been since the 6th/7th centuries.

[carpo-rusyn]

SbDn
I think my post was more in the nature of poking fun at the previous post that seemed to claim exclusive rights to the appelation "Roman"

CR

[Father Peter]

I'm a bit slow. You need to use the <joke></joke> and <irony></irony> tags for my benefit.

[SamB]

Well I don't know about hijacking it, but I thought that in the Middle East the EO's were known as Rum Orthodox, and always have been since the 6th/7th centuries.

And still are.  Their Catholic counterparts are called Rum Katoleek, literally Roman Catholic (except in the preferred English translation 'Greek Catholic'), with Rome designating Constantinople rather than the Pope's See.  Roman Catholics (as we understand the word in English) are called Lateen (Latins).  The understanding of Roman as Byzantine supercedes the standard titles accepted in the Western world.  In Arabic historical films, the Byzantines and their armies are always referred to as Rum.

In IC XC
Samer

[Father Peter]

Exactly, therefore it is not merely a form of linguistic hijacking to say that Byzantine Orthodox is Roman.

[ByzantineSerb]

are called Rum Katoleek, literally Roman Catholic...

   With the word "Rum" their, I almost assumed we were talking of the French and Irish Catholics.

[Ebor]

Exactly, therefore it is not merely a form of linguistic hijacking to say that Byzantine Orthodox is Roman.

On the other hand, it would seem to be a form of liguistic hijacking to say that *only* Byzantine Orthodox was/is Roman, or to claim that the Western Empire somehow was not or the assertion that true Romans were only in the East and the West was taken over by "Latin-Franks".

There seems to a cache to the name "Rome", considering that I have read that there are some who would claim Moscow as "The Third Rome".  

Ebor

[Ebor]

Ebor, my friend, you've read too much Gibbon who blithely dismisses about 1000 years of Roman Imperial history by virtually ignoring Constantinople.

Actually, I have never completed Gibbon.  He's rather dated in some of his views.    I read more modern works of history.  If you would wish to recommend any, I thank you.  But it's possible I've read some of them.

Ebor

[Ebor]

Well I don't know about hijacking it, but I thought that in the Middle East the EO's were known as Rum Orthodox, and always have been since the 6th/7th centuries.

I have read several places, including the writings of a person whose father was from Greek stock in Turkey, that the the appellation "Rum" came from the "millet" system in which the Islamic conquerors catagorized the populace into "millets" or "nations" based on religion. So it was "Rum Millet".  I have also read a bit of Bulgarians saying that they were classed as "Rum Millet" or the "Greek People".  Not knowing great details of Bulgarian political history, I merely mention this as another data point.

Ebor