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Br. Max, OFC
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« on: January 16, 2004, 12:06:57 PM »


I've heard it mentioned that especially amongst the traditional RC that they are scandalized by modern music and *gasp* drums and guitars in church.  I find that very interesting since the psalms are full of references to stringed and percussion instruments used in worship.  I’m wondering how this attitude came to be when the scriptures plainly disgaree.
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2004, 12:19:11 PM »

The Coptic/Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox have always used a small cymbal and triangles to keep a rhythm in hymns, and in sub-saharan Africa in the Orthodox missions I believe that some drums are used.

The Irish had a harp which was used liturgically.

I think the major difference is the use of some form of percussion to keep time and rhythm and the introduction of a 'band' which tends to become a focus in itself.

I am not personally happy with the exclusive use of a choir to perform all of the lay parts in a liturgy either. I'd rather see a choir supporting the participation of the congregation than supplanting it.

That's the advantage of being in a mission congregation. Everyone is in the choir and is expected to participate.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2004, 12:20:30 PM »

Bro Max,

In the early Church, it was felt that the most pure instrument out there was the human voice.  Nothing else compares.  As probably has been explained (or inferred from other topics) in other threads, the early Church service/liturgy had its roots in the early Jewish Temple worship.  I don't think there were instruments there - I don't think you'll find it if you go to a conservative (hassidic, whatever, I don't really know) Temple today.

Also, think if it this way.  When you go to church, you are going to pray and worship in a corporate environment.  You are not going for some emotional experience like those evangelical mega-churches.  You are going to pray.  It's that simple.  Therefore, the music should be prayerful - which the human voice has the best capability of doing.

Another way to think about.  Do you feel that you are praising God with all the works that you do?  I hear many people feel this way.  (Someone confirm/deny this for me) Aren't we supposed to?  If you play in a band/orchestra/whatever, you may be literally praising him with timbrel and dance or the sound of trumpet.  

(Or, all this could just be a metaphor for the human voice.)
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2004, 12:31:29 PM »

II Chronicles 5:12-14, "12 Also the Levites [which were] the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, [being] arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:)  13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers [were] as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up [their] voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever: that [then] the house was filled with a cloud, [even] the house of the LORD. 14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God."

II Chronicles 29:25-29, "25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for [so was] the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. 26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. 27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel. 28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished. 29 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped."
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2004, 02:43:34 PM »


Hi,

It's been awhile since I've read about this issue, but I think the Church Fathers taught that God permitted ancient Israel (ie: first temple Judaism) to use muscial instruments like the harp and lyre and flutes, to help teach the people of God how to worship God. At that time, mankind had not learned how to praise and worship God. The pagans of the time used all sorts of weird and twisted rituals (human and infant sacrifices, wild and erotic dancing, blood letting etc). God taught the Hebrews worship was to be done Liturgically, yet He permitted the use of musical instruments, because humanity was not "ready" for the ultimate expression of heavenly worship on earth. Messiah had not yet come, the Holy Spirit had not been poured out "on all flesh" and so mankind was in a stage or being prepared for the coming of Christ. Even in the Old and New Testament record, we can see a progression of Liturgical worship, to where it became more and more pure and refined. The further back in time you go, the more we get a picture of Israel using instruments, even in the temple. But as we go forward in time, we see less and less of this type of worship. By the time of the New Testament and Second Temple Judaism, we see Liturgical worship had been so refined, that the hours had been added. (the hours of prayer are not written of in the Old Testament that I'm aware of) We also read nothing about intrumental worship in the New Testament record of the 1st Century Jews.

2nd Temple Judaism no longer used instruments except for the purpose of keeping time. (at least not in the Temple) Today in Orthodox Judaism, if you go to a synagogue, they will not use intruments. And this form of Judaism came right out of 2nd Temple Judaism, after the destruction of the Temple, and the exile in 135 AD.
When the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost, the Church now officially was "not of this world". There is no record of instruments being used in heaven anywhere in the Old or New Testaments. Since Christ's Kingdom, came down to us, and it is the Kigdom of Heaven on earth, we of course do not use intruments, because now worship is to be a mirror of heavenly worship. Ancient Israel was permitted to use insturments, but the New Israel should not.

Here are a few quotes I found on the subject from the Church Fathers, hope this helps some:

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): "The use of [instrumental] music was not received in the Christian churches, as it was among the Jew, in their infant state, but only the use of plain song. . . . Simply singing is not agreeable to children [the aforementioned Jews], but singing with lifeless instruments and with dancing and clapping is. On this account the use of this kind of instruments and of others agreeable to children is removed from the songs of the churches, and there is left remaining simply singing."
ááá
Notice how he wrote the Jews used intruments in their INFANT state. Not neccessarily in the 1st Century, for Israel by that time was already ancient.


Tertullian (c. A.D. 200): "Musical concerts with viol and lute belong to Apollo, to the Muses, to Minerva and Mercury who invented them; ye who are Christians, hate and abhor these things whose very authors themselves must be the object of loathing and aversion."


Eusebius (260-340): "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshiping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and kithara . . . But we in an inward manner keep the part of the Jew, according to the saying of the apostle . . . [Romans 2:28f]. We render our hymns with a living psalterion and a living kithara, with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument" (Comments on Psalm 92:2-3).

Chrysostom (345-407): "Just as the Jews are commanded to praise God with all musical instruments so we are commanded to praise him with all our members-the eye, the tongue, ear, the hand. These instruments were then allowed because of the weakness of the people, to train them to love and harmony" (Comments on Psalm 150)

Hope this helps....



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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2004, 08:10:51 PM »

Bro Max,
You're proof texting - just like many Prot's.
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2004, 08:34:14 PM »

We're not scandalized by "modern music". We're left flat by fake folkies and hymns that sound like butter commercials and sitcom theme music.
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2004, 09:10:19 PM »

During the Babylonian Captivity the Israelites became very familiar with pagan instrumental worship, vis-a-vis Nebuchadnezzar and his golden statue.  They hung up their harps and could not sing the Lord's song in a foreign land.  Upon their return to Jerusalem and rebuilding of the Temple, Israel stood a whole day listening with repentance to the reading of the Book of the Law.  It's a different character of worship.  Festal pilgrimmages may have been accompanied by Hymns of Ascent, but the Temple itself was more solemn.

Besides all this, worship does not only mean Divine Services.  David played a harp in a field and meditated in the night watches.  Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2004, 06:17:13 PM »

We're not scandalized by "modern music". We're left flat by fake folkies and hymns that sound like butter commercials and sitcom theme music.

It is infectious, particularly in Montreal, a city that thrives on juxtaposition (the architecture of the city makes this clear enough).  One example should illustrate.

The most traditional parish I have come across here is Coptic Orthodox.  The chants are executed very well--the capable proficiency in creating an authentic Egyptian atmosphere is unmistakeable.  Nontheless, on at least one occasion, after a lengthy series of Coptic Communion hymns (Communion takes a good amount of time in the case of this parish), there was an immediate launch into a round of cheesy English hymns of the kind one is accustomed to hearing in R.C. parishes.

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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2004, 06:33:59 PM »

There is that side to the Coptic folk. And some of the religious art they like is also of a particular Western type, and yet the churches have some of the oldest icons and the modern neo-Coptic iconography is stunning.

There is a certain 'delight', 'joy', 'lightness' - I don't know what word I'm looking for - about the much persecuted Coptic Orthodox people.
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2004, 06:46:36 PM »

The Copts, from what I've gathered from my limited contact with them, seem to be amongst the most active of the Levantine Christians.

The parish in question has amongst the best books I've seen published for the purpose of following the Qud'das (all three Liturgies).  Six columns for every two pages:  Arabic script and Coptic script (and English transliterations for both), and English and French.

I came across a charmingly innovative bit of 'modernity'--I say with confidence it would make a reactionary applaud--that they managed to incorporate successfully into the otherwise traditional setting of their church.  Situated above their beautiful wooden icononostasis was a small-size electronic display that would indicate in real time the proper page to follow at every moment of the Qud'das.  A lot of back-and-forth page-flipping is involved, making the monitor quite invaluable.

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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2004, 06:51:06 PM »

They are quite wonderful in that respect. In the Mother church they have a delight in adding neon lights to some religious pictures, such as would give the impression of a censer swinging. Indeed a Rocor priest friend of mine who used to lend his church to the Copts always used to smile at the electronics that would be stored in the vestry.

When I was visiting in Egypt and was sitting with Bishop Boutros of the Patmos Centre I pulled out my Nokia Communicator and both he and several of his clergy all pulled Communicators out to.

Which church was it you visited?
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2004, 06:58:09 PM »

St. Mark's (of course) in Montreal, Peter.

They seem to be well-established in Canada, and I am told by them that they still do not have a bishop, puzzlingly enough.  It bespeaks irony that the Melchites, on the other hand, have a bishop, but no church of their own in Montreal, and it seems to drag on endlessly.

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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2004, 07:06:10 PM »

A lot of the churches in the diaspora are still under the direct care of His Holiness. But the UK has two bishops and a metropolitan.

The Canadians are very active in terms of working with the English language as the future in the West as far as I can see.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2004, 07:06:25 PM »

I have to admit that I do enjoy chant - but NOT all the time.  


As for the Jewish character of worship - the Orthodox Jews tend towards a very lively and upbeat service with LOTS of clapping [AND DANCING] even when they do choose not to use musical instrument - and they do use them for many services.  


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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2004, 09:50:26 PM »

I find some contemporary Christian music very appealing to the ear and the emotions, but I am absolutely convinced that it has no place in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy.

It is too much of this world and like this world. And it is a creature of taste and of entertainment.

Sacred music, whether vocal or instrumental, should (in my opinion) be solemn, awe-inspiring, and God-honoring. It should not be intentionally boring, insipid, or just plain bad, but its primary purpose is not to entertain.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2004, 11:35:40 PM »

Linus: lets not forget that traditional sacred music was once CONTEMPORARY sacred music.  What more, music can be awe-inspiring, and God-honouring while being vibrant, panegyrical, and gratifying and without being stodgy, tedious, or  irrelevant to the people.  I’m not saying we need to imitate Baptists, but I love a dynamic praise-filled service.  

There are few things so dull as going to church and the congregation sits there immobile while the choir sings some song no one knows the words to.  I go to concerts to hear other people sing.  I go to church to sing the praises of God. Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2004, 01:02:01 AM »


Tertullian (c. A.D. 200): "Musical concerts with viol and lute belong to Apollo, to the Muses, to Minerva and Mercury who invented them; ye who are Christians, hate and abhor these things whose very authors themselves must be the object of loathing and aversion."


Maybe I'm feeling cranky tonight, but this bit of Tertullian is a load of dingoes kidneys.  Concerts and instruments invented by pagan deities?!?  Tripe.  Or maybe Tertullian had a tin ear.  Human beings around the world make instruments and music.  It depends on what's available in materials and ability.   I think the general pattern is after voice,  percussion, then wind instruments then eventually strings.    

This is like the time a Greek EO guy (back in the dim times on GEnie) told me that the ***ONLY*** acceptable music for worshiping God that He will hear is Byzantine Chant because it was dictated by angels.  Every other sort of music is wrong, wrong wrong.  

well, shrug. It flummoxed me then and I still don't believe it now.

Sorry if I sound grouchy.

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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2004, 01:05:16 AM »

Sacred music, whether vocal or instrumental, should (in my opinion) be solemn, awe-inspiring, and God-honoring. It should not be intentionally boring, insipid, or just plain bad, but its primary purpose is not to entertain.

American Gospel singing is not much solemn, but imho it's meant to be God-honouring and awe-inspiring and it surely isn't insipid.

ymmv,  

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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2004, 01:22:44 AM »

American Gospel singing is not much solemn, but imho it's meant to be God-honouring and awe-inspiring and it surely isn't insipid.

ymmv,  

Ebor

It's not much good either, but that's just my opinion.
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2004, 01:34:33 AM »

Linus: lets not forget that traditional sacred music was once CONTEMPORARY sacred music.  What more, music can be awe-inspiring, and God-honouring while being vibrant, panegyrical, and gratifying and without being stodgy, tedious, or  irrelevant to the people.  I’m not saying we need to imitate Baptists, but I love a dynamic praise-filled service.  

There are few things so dull as going to church and the congregation sits there immobile while the choir sings some song no one knows the words to.  I go to concerts to hear other people sing.  I go to church to sing the praises of God. Smiley

We do precious little sitting in the Orthodox Church.

I'm not so sure our sacred music ever had as much in common with the secular music of its day as modern contemporary Christian music does with pop.

Was our sacred music written in conscious imitation of popular music in order to have mass appeal, especially to young people and non-Christians?

Was it performed by artists for money?

Was it as devoid of substantive content and as repetitive as so much of modern contemporary Christian music is?

Before I became Orthodox, I attended an Episcopal church a few times that featured a pop/rock band and contemporary hymns. We used no hymnal or BCP. The lyrics were projected onto a screen at the front of the church.

I found that exceedingly dull, not to mention headache-inducing.

 

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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2004, 01:36:07 AM »

Linus: "leaning on the everlasting arms," "Amazing Grace," "Pass me Not," "joyful joyful," "Oh Happy Day" NOT MUCH GOOD??  Linus, brother - we need to get you some SOUL!!
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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2004, 01:39:05 AM »

Linus: don't confuse contemporary inspired music with so called "Christian rock" which is a blatant contradiction in terms.  You should come up here visit our church and see what good Christian music is Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2004, 01:43:00 AM »

Linus: "leaning on the everlasting arms," "Amazing Grace," "Pass me Not," "joyful joyful," "Oh Happy Day" NOT MUCH GOOD??  Linus, brother - we need to get you some SOUL!!

Amazing Grace is hardly American Gospel music.

But you're right: I don't much like the songs you named, although I am not familiar with Joyful, Joyful or Pass Me Not.

I think Leaning on the Everlasting Arms is not really American Gospel either, although I suppose it could be performed in that style.

When someone says "American Gospel," I think of the type of music commonly performed in black American churches.

I'm not condemning it as wrong, but it's not my thing. In fact, I find it annoying.
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« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2004, 01:48:06 AM »

Linus: don't confuse contemporary inspired music with so called "Christian rock" which is a blatant contradiction in terms.  You should come up here visit our church and see what good Christian music is Cheesy


Oh, don't get me wrong. I actually like a lot of the contemporary Christian music. There's a commercial being run on tv now for a two-CD set that sounds good to me; I might buy it.

I just don't think it has any place in the Divine Liturgy.

At more informal gatherings, okay. At liturgy, never.
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« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2004, 01:49:06 AM »

there is more to gospel than Black Baptists. lol

http://ehymnal.com/joyful.shtml

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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2004, 05:14:18 AM »

Many of the song writing Fathers did write theological popular songs to be sung to contemporary tunes.

Not for church worship - but there was always a tradition of extra-liturgical christian song.
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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2004, 11:39:10 AM »

Many of the song writing Fathers did write theological popular songs to be sung to contemporary tunes.

Not for church worship - but there was always a tradition of extra-liturgical christian song.

That's interesting.

As I said before, I have no problem with popular contemporary Christian music. I like some of it and consider it personally inspiring.

For example, I have a Jackie Velasquez CD that I enjoy.

I am seriously considering buying the CD set I have seen advertized on tv; I think it is called Worship Together or something like that. It strikes me as kind of Protestantish, but I can overlook that.

I just don't think pop Christian music belongs in the liturgy, especially since the way we worship - the words we use - becomes part of the Church's Tradition. A new song would have to be carefully scrutinized before it could be added to the worship of the Church.
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2004, 02:06:29 PM »

The Coptic/Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox have always used a small cymbal and triangles to keep a rhythm in hymns, and in sub-saharan Africa in the Orthodox missions I believe that some drums are used.

Actually I'm pretty sure that the cymbal was introduced later as an allowance to help keep time, it's not original, and it should never overshaddow the voice which is all that's really allowed, it's just for time keeping.  All Christians, including the Reformers, rejected the idea of worshipping God with machines.  Luther and Calvin both wrote against the practice, as did many of the early Fathers of the Church.  It's only very recently that instruments have begun to be used.
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2004, 02:37:07 PM »

Jonathan - your forgetting the OT record of musical intruments in worship. Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2004, 09:51:41 PM »

I'm not forgetting it, of course instruments were used in the OT.  I think someone already explained that.  The first Christians would have been familiar with the use of instruments in worship both from Jewish practice and from Pagan practice, it was the norm at the time.  Yet they chose not to use instruments.  Christian worship is a fulfillment of the OT worship, not just a continuation.  For lack of a better way to express it, it's more spiritual than it's forshaddowing.  We don't have things that can be about a performer, or that can only be participated in by a few.  We sing the hymns together with everyone participating and no performance or exclusion.  We don't use devices in our worship, we worship God with our spirits and our voices.  This is the way it's been in Christianity from the time of the Apostles until today, with only recent additions made by various Christian groups.  (Of course I'm talking about musical instruments in the Liturgy, instruments on CD's or accompanying choirs outside the Liturgy are normal and fine).
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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2004, 10:29:02 AM »

jonathan: often I find that people choose not to use instruments because they do not know how to play . . . .

If the Bible is the word of God, and what is written in it infallible - There is not one reference to music without instruments to be found, but tons with.  I understand the history of current practice - but, if tradition contradicts scripture (one of the points of the reformers in the west) should we not side with scripture over tradition?   It's problematic that people would say that the psalms are inspired and infallible in some passages because we choose to view them as prophetic, but - in other passages, we say that what is written was true for then, but not for now.  OKAY - where does it say that what was true for then is not true for now?? lol
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« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2004, 01:55:01 PM »

Bro. Max you're such an exasperating fundie! Smiley

Let me approach this the fundie way...none of the instruments, with the possible exeption of the cymbal, are extant. The guitar is a reletively new invention, passed down through the lute to the spanish from the arabs. Your Bible might say "lute" or "harp," but I guarantee you those instruments weren't around in Ancient Israel. And besides, I don't see too many lutes and harps in modern worship.

What does the Bible say about trap sets? Give me a quote from your all knowing source of dogma! What does it say about electric instruments? My church plays the bongos. What does the Bible say about that!? Did they have bongos in ancient Israel?! Maybe the mormons are right after all. Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2004, 02:04:35 PM »

my bible doesn't say lute silly it says Lyre. Tongue and what’s wrong with appealing to scriptures?  I did not say that Scriptures are the be all and end all of the faith after all.  Sheesh.  

Fundie I am not Tongue.  

And who is to say that if David had had an electric guitar and a trap set and synthesizer available to him, Israel would not have used them?Huh Grin
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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2004, 02:17:37 PM »

Okay, you're not a fundie, and there is nothing wrong with appealing to scripture. But you do have a tendency to reduce sacred texts (including papal bulls) to the most bare, literal meaning possible. You share with the fundies their penchant for reduction.

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And who is to say that if David had had an electric guitar and a trap set and synthesizer available to him, Israel would not have used them?Huh

Who is to say they would? You know, I'd say that that's lost to history. Build your time machine Br. Max, and we'll go listen to Marty Haugen in Solomon's Temple Smiley Until then, I prefer traditional hymns.
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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2004, 02:26:39 PM »

Caffeinator: Sorry if I prefer to take people at and for what they say without the need to Spin spin spin Grin

Caffeinator: so you would not listen to John Michel Talbot play at Mass?
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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2004, 02:32:07 PM »

That's okay, Br. Max, as long as you know (or find out) that meaning is lost in the reduction.

As far as mass goes, I listen to what's presented to me. Indeed, I am in my choir and they play contemporary music. But I would prefer Missa de Angelis with full contrapuntal pipe organ.
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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2004, 02:36:25 PM »

Caffeinator: Pipe organs give me a headache.

Personally, I prefer music I can sing along with Smiley  I take my worship personally.
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« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2004, 02:51:13 PM »

Sure the Psalms are prophetic... but that doesn't mean that we worship exactly like they depect or we'd still be in Judaism.  For eg. Ps150 talkes about praising God with various instruments, which St. Clement of Alexandria (I think) interprets to be the parts of the body that we use in singing.

It doesn't say in Scripture that we should not use instruments.  Yet we don't use intruments.  This isn't a contradiciton with Scripture, it would only be a contracition if It said to use instruments and we didn't, you can't be in contradiciton with something Scripture is silent with.

The Apostles would have been very famility with instruments in worship, and chose to do things this way.  If this practice contradicts Scripture as you claim then we have a bigger problem then wether or not to use instruments, if very people who wrote the NT are contradicting the OT in thier practice then we have problems with the Bible.

There's lots of NT practice that isn't recorded in the Bible.  After all the Bible isn't a book laying out what Christian worship should look like.  Christ taught the Apostles what needs to be in the Liturgy and the Apostles wrote thier Liturgies accordingly.  The Liturgy is not in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that it's contrary to Scripture.  The Bible talks about our salvation, it's not meant to be a complete instruction on how Christians should worship.  The practacle aspects of worship, including the Liturgy and the disuse of instruments, are largely left to Tradition and not included in the Bible.  It's not a contradiction, just two different sources of information that don't contradict but don't contain everything in the other either.  (well, Tradition includes the Bible since the Bible is tradition, but not the other way...)
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« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2004, 03:34:47 PM »

It's all about "Table of Plenty"...
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2004, 05:08:11 PM »

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Caffeinator: Pipe organs give me a headache.

And trap sets don't?

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Personally, I prefer music I can sing along with   I take my worship personally.

Me too, that's why I prefer Missa de Angelis
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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2004, 05:27:06 PM »

Well, I happen to prefer Healy Willan myself. (What true Anglican doesn't?)

There's an answer to most of this discussion that is staring everyone in the face, spread out across the whole thread, once we get past guitars, cymbals, and Tertullian.
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« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2004, 06:10:38 PM »

Sure the Psalms are prophetic... but that doesn't mean that we worship exactly like they depect or we'd still be in Judaism.  For eg. Ps150 talkes about praising God with various instruments, which St. Clement of Alexandria (I think) interprets to be the parts of the body that we use in singing.

Is this a reference to the almighty WIND instrument? Grin

Quote
It doesn't say in Scripture that we should not use instruments.  Yet we don't use intruments.  This isn't a contradiciton with Scripture, it would only be a contracition if It said to use instruments and we didn't, you can't be in contradiciton with something Scripture is silent with.

But the whole reason I began this thread was over claims that the use of contemporary music and of instruments is improper.

[qoute]The Apostles would have been very famility with instruments in worship, and chose to do things this way.  If this practice contradicts Scripture as you claim then we have a bigger problem then wether or not to use instruments, if very people who wrote the NT are contradicting the OT in thier practice then we have problems with the Bible.
Quote
 

I don't remember seeing anything recorded in the scripture which would imply that the apostles did not or would not use music in their worship.

Quote
There's lots of NT practice that isn't recorded in the Bible.  After all the Bible isn't a book laying out what Christian worship should look like.  Christ taught the Apostles what needs to be in the Liturgy and the Apostles wrote thier Liturgies accordingly.  The Liturgy is not in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that it's contrary to Scripture.  The Bible talks about our salvation, it's not meant to be a complete instruction on how Christians should worship.  The practacle aspects of worship, including the Liturgy and the disuse of instruments, are largely left to Tradition and not included in the Bible.  It's not a contradiction, just two different sources of information that don't contradict but don't contain everything in the other either.  (well, Tradition includes the Bible since the Bible is tradition, but not the other way...)  
I never made the claim that the bible is the be all and end all of the faith so I'm not sure why you felt the need to say all of this.
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« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2004, 06:14:22 PM »

And trap sets don't?Me too, that's why I prefer Missa de Angelis

less so than does a pipe organ. We actually use a Synth drum mechine Smiley  Lets you keep the volume low.
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« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2004, 10:11:31 PM »

Quote
There's an answer to most of this discussion that is staring everyone in the face, spread out across the whole thread, once we get past guitars, cymbals, and Tertullian.

I fail to see how yellow dog is an answer! Or is there something else staring me in the face? Smiley
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