Author Topic: Judge Not...  (Read 907 times)

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Offline Scott

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Judge Not...
« on: April 19, 2010, 12:15:03 AM »
So, I hear alot of things within the Church that are are called "essential to salvation," such as Baptism, the Eucharist, etc. However, then I've heard that we don't know if people who don't do these things will go to hell. If an unbeliever, or, at least people who haven't done these things, are able to be saved, then doesn't that mean the Holy Mysteries are not essential to salvation?
- James

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 02:30:54 AM »
So, I hear alot of things within the Church that are are called "essential to salvation," such as Baptism, the Eucharist, etc. However, then I've heard that we don't know if people who don't do these things will go to hell. If an unbeliever, or, at least people who haven't done these things, are able to be saved, then doesn't that mean the Holy Mysteries are not essential to salvation?
How do you understand salvation?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 05:01:10 AM »
The Sacraments are essential to salvation for all who have the opportunity to avail themselves of these Mysteries. The Sacraments are the tangible, mystical, and spiritual means of divine grace. The grace of God is not limited to or confined to the Sacraments, but nevetheless these Mysteries are the means by which He has clearly made Himself available to those who wish to unite with Him.

Thus, those who wish to experience God and have the opportunity to do so will enter into and commune with His Church through the Divine Sacraments. But those who have not the opportunity are not excluded from the grace of God (e.g. the repentant thief on the cross). As for those who willfully reject the Church and Her Mysteries: all I know is that this is an extrememly dangerous thing, but the mercy of God endureth forever.

(I could be wrong, so please consult a Priest about this important question.)


Selam
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 05:03:34 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 07:50:40 AM »
I think this is what helps us grow in love, faith, & hope for others & at the same time struggle with whatever infirmities that plague our very being.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2010, 10:46:18 AM »
"Thou shallt not tempt the Lord thy God....."

He has made the offer. If you spurn it, you will be required to account for why you did so.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2010, 12:49:10 PM »
I agree with Isa and Gebre: the Holy Mysteries are absolutely essential--for me. I wish and pray that all would also partake because the Lord was very clear: "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6: 53-54). On the other hand, I also want to believe that God's grace will fall on all. And that it will be so at His own time and choosing.

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2010, 02:24:16 PM »
Before we go on addressing an understanding of salvation that may not be Scott's and end up not answering his question, let us first find out just exactly how he understands salvation.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Scott

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2010, 07:18:33 PM »
Before we go on addressing an understanding of salvation that may not be Scott's and end up not answering his question, let us first find out just exactly how he understands salvation.

If I'm not mistaken, its becoming like God. Is that right?
- James

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 07:55:14 PM »
Before we go on addressing an understanding of salvation that may not be Scott's and end up not answering his question, let us first find out just exactly how he understands salvation.

If I'm not mistaken, its becoming like God. Is that right?
But is that how YOU understand salvation?  If I read your question in the OP correctly, you seem to understand salvation as mere redemption from the fires of hell.
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Offline Scott

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 08:16:54 PM »
It's how I understand salvation now. Needless to say I didn't view it in this way when I was a Protestant.

I thought the Mysteries are one of the ways we do become like God.
- James

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2010, 01:20:37 AM »
It's how I understand salvation now. Needless to say I didn't view it in this way when I was a Protestant.

I thought the Mysteries are one of the ways we do become like God.
Then I'm having trouble understanding your question, since the reasoning I see in it is the conclusion that the Holy Mysteries are not essential for salvation if we can't say that those who don't partake of them are going to hell.  This logic equates salvation with redemption from hell and not with theosis.
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Offline David Lanier

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 11:00:00 AM »
It's how I understand salvation now. Needless to say I didn't view it in this way when I was a Protestant.

I thought the Mysteries are one of the ways we do become like God.

Satan tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden with the forbidden fruit by telling them that if they ate of it they would become like God.

In the Orthodox understanding of Theosis or Diefication, we partake of the Divine Mysteries of the Lord, and we engage in prayer and ascetical life (to the extent one is able) in order to restore ourselves to our true created nature which is to be in Communion with God and partake of His Divine Nature.

There is a better explanation of this at http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

Offline zoarthegleaner

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Re: Judge Not...
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2010, 06:22:39 PM »
It's how I understand salvation now. Needless to say I didn't view it in this way when I was a Protestant.

I thought the Mysteries are one of the ways we do become like God.
Then I'm having trouble understanding your question, since the reasoning I see in it is the conclusion that the Holy Mysteries are not essential for salvation if we can't say that those who don't partake of them are going to hell.  This logic equates salvation with redemption from hell and not with theosis.

Precise, I like your answer, but and with however, St. John Chrysostom stated something like that Hell is the lowest place in heaven wherein will be those who taught others to break the least of the commandments, perhaps that is JUDGE NOT?

john


Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.