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Author Topic: Greece, Synod condemns Mass in modern Greek  (Read 22358 times) Average Rating: 0
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John of the North
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« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2010, 03:11:16 AM »

Yes, it would be. And for the 10th billionth time what do people not get. The Greek they use in Church is perfectly comprehensible to everyone!!!! In fact they can't translate anything into modern Greek (because its the exact same language)
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

Exact same language.

And I understood it perfectly within a minute of seeing the first line. Granted there are many parts of Old English I don't understand, but this prayer is not one of them. Besides that, part of Reader's argument is that the older forms of Greek should be taught in schools like it was in the past. The same thing with Old English, why shouldn't our schoolchildren have the opportunity to read Beowulf in its original tongue, or the homilies of the Old English Saints etc. This does not help your case, at all. The older forms of Greek were taught in Greek schools at one point, so in that case the Greek should have been readily accessible to the people. if we taught Old English in the schools, then having church services in Old English would be just as accessible.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 03:13:28 AM by Ukiemeister » Logged

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« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2010, 08:38:07 AM »

Yes, it would be. And for the 10th billionth time what do people not get. The Greek they use in Church is perfectly comprehensible to everyone!!!! In fact they can't translate anything into modern Greek (because its the exact same language)
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

Exact same language.

And I understood it perfectly within a minute of seeing the first line. Granted there are many parts of Old English I don't understand, but this prayer is not one of them. Besides that, part of Reader's argument is that the older forms of Greek should be taught in schools like it was in the past. The same thing with Old English, why shouldn't our schoolchildren have the opportunity to read Beowulf in its original tongue, or the homilies of the Old English Saints etc. This does not help your case, at all. The older forms of Greek were taught in Greek schools at one point, so in that case the Greek should have been readily accessible to the people. if we taught Old English in the schools, then having church services in Old English would be just as accessible.

Not really a true test, you are reading it in a controlled environment and you do know the modern English version and have that patterned in your brain. Hence, it is easier to translate.

I found a link to an 11th century reading of the Our Father. Close your eyes and don't follow the screen while you listen to it. I don't think you can honestly say that you 'comprehend' or 'understand' it as read.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl-OZ3breE   While some words come through to the modern ear, a modern English speaker would pick out some recognizable words in many languages including German, French, Spanish and even Latin.

A less commonly heard set of prayers or readings, even something that we hear with some degree of regularity such as the Paschal Canon, would no doubt be as incomprehensible to the the modern English speaker as would Church Slavonic or liturgical Greek. Here is a link to a series of prose readings in Old English that are likely unfamiliar to the non-classics scholar. http://faculty.virginia.edu/OldEnglish/Guide.Readings/Alfred.html

I can accept the argument that with a prayerbook that contains side by side translations and a lot of effort on your part that you can obtain a degree of understanding of what the services are conveying. (You are going to spend a lot of time with your 'nose in the book' however.)  I can  also accept the 'feeling' and 'sensual' argument in support of using a dead language up to a point. But I can't accept the argument that the 'old languages' are somehow more proper, more 'Orthodox' or more 'authentic' than the spoken tongue. I think that there is a place for the retention of some degree of the 'old language', but that the predominant language should be the one spoken and understood by the congregation.

If that is not the case, then the logic of the argument in support of not being able to properly translate liturgical prose from their original texts should dictate the use of the original texts, in their original form,using the language of the era in which they were written. Obviously that would remove Slavonic from the table and lead to a babble of conflicting source material in different archaic languages.



« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 08:59:27 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2010, 08:57:11 AM »

Christos Voskres!
Yes, it would be. And for the 10th billionth time what do people not get. The Greek they use in Church is perfectly comprehensible to everyone!!!! In fact they can't translate anything into modern Greek (because its the exact same language)
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

Exact same language.

And I understood it perfectly within a minute of seeing the first line. Granted there are many parts of Old English I don't understand, but this prayer is not one of them. Besides that, part of Reader's argument is that the older forms of Greek should be taught in schools like it was in the past.

and I'm inclined to agree, as I favor Katharevousa (which would still justify modification of the texts). But neither he nor I (nor you?) are Greek, and the Greeks have decided otherwise.  So either the Holy Synod should come out an advocate for turning back the tide, or it is going to have to go with the linguistic flow.

Quote
The same thing with Old English, why shouldn't our schoolchildren have the opportunity to read Beowulf in its original tongue, or the homilies of the Old English Saints etc. This does not help your case, at all. The older forms of Greek were taught in Greek schools at one point, so in that case the Greek should have been readily accessible to the people. if we taught Old English in the schools, then having church services in Old English would be just as accessible.
Exactly, you've made my case.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 08:57:33 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2010, 09:33:54 AM »

Two days later I officially give up. You people are the ones who have trouble understanding and comprehending. Clearly.

Aaaaaaaawwwwww!!!!!
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« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2010, 11:27:45 AM »

Yes, it would be. And for the 10th billionth time what do people not get. The Greek they use in Church is perfectly comprehensible to everyone!!!! In fact they can't translate anything into modern Greek (because its the exact same language)
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

Exact same language.

And I understood it perfectly within a minute of seeing the first line. Granted there are many parts of Old English I don't understand, but this prayer is not one of them. Besides that, part of Reader's argument is that the older forms of Greek should be taught in schools like it was in the past. The same thing with Old English, why shouldn't our schoolchildren have the opportunity to read Beowulf in its original tongue, or the homilies of the Old English Saints etc. This does not help your case, at all. The older forms of Greek were taught in Greek schools at one point, so in that case the Greek should have been readily accessible to the people. if we taught Old English in the schools, then having church services in Old English would be just as accessible.

Not really a true test, you are reading it in a controlled environment and you do know the modern English version and have that patterned in your brain. Hence, it is easier to translate.

I found a link to an 11th century reading of the Our Father. Close your eyes and don't follow the screen while you listen to it. I don't think you can honestly say that you 'comprehend' or 'understand' it as read.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl-OZ3breE   While some words come through to the modern ear, a modern English speaker would pick out some recognizable words in many languages including German, French, Spanish and even Latin.

A less commonly heard set of prayers or readings, even something that we hear with some degree of regularity such as the Paschal Canon, would no doubt be as incomprehensible to the the modern English speaker as would Church Slavonic or liturgical Greek. Here is a link to a series of prose readings in Old English that are likely unfamiliar to the non-classics scholar. http://faculty.virginia.edu/OldEnglish/Guide.Readings/Alfred.html

I can accept the argument that with a prayerbook that contains side by side translations and a lot of effort on your part that you can obtain a degree of understanding of what the services are conveying. (You are going to spend a lot of time with your 'nose in the book' however.)  I can  also accept the 'feeling' and 'sensual' argument in support of using a dead language up to a point. But I can't accept the argument that the 'old languages' are somehow more proper, more 'Orthodox' or more 'authentic' than the spoken tongue. I think that there is a place for the retention of some degree of the 'old language', but that the predominant language should be the one spoken and understood by the congregation.

If that is not the case, then the logic of the argument in support of not being able to properly translate liturgical prose from their original texts should dictate the use of the original texts, in their original form,using the language of the era in which they were written. Obviously that would remove Slavonic from the table and lead to a babble of conflicting source material in different archaic languages.

I remember when my niece was baptized Lutheran, and I noticed the vow to give the child a copy of the scriptures when they became of age, and it dawned on me how non-apostolic such a thing it was, as the vast majority of Christians up until the modern age 1) could not read or write and 2) couldn't afford their private copy of the Bible.  I reject the excuse of a prayer book with translation as solving the problem on the same basis, Protestant innovation.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2010, 01:24:36 PM »

Yes, it would be. And for the 10th billionth time what do people not get. The Greek they use in Church is perfectly comprehensible to everyone!!!! In fact they can't translate anything into modern Greek (because its the exact same language)
Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

Exact same language.

And I understood it perfectly within a minute of seeing the first line. Granted there are many parts of Old English I don't understand, but this prayer is not one of them. Besides that, part of Reader's argument is that the older forms of Greek should be taught in schools like it was in the past. The same thing with Old English, why shouldn't our schoolchildren have the opportunity to read Beowulf in its original tongue, or the homilies of the Old English Saints etc. This does not help your case, at all. The older forms of Greek were taught in Greek schools at one point, so in that case the Greek should have been readily accessible to the people. if we taught Old English in the schools, then having church services in Old English would be just as accessible.

Not really a true test, you are reading it in a controlled environment and you do know the modern English version and have that patterned in your brain. Hence, it is easier to translate.

I found a link to an 11th century reading of the Our Father. Close your eyes and don't follow the screen while you listen to it. I don't think you can honestly say that you 'comprehend' or 'understand' it as read.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl-OZ3breE   While some words come through to the modern ear, a modern English speaker would pick out some recognizable words in many languages including German, French, Spanish and even Latin.

A less commonly heard set of prayers or readings, even something that we hear with some degree of regularity such as the Paschal Canon, would no doubt be as incomprehensible to the the modern English speaker as would Church Slavonic or liturgical Greek. Here is a link to a series of prose readings in Old English that are likely unfamiliar to the non-classics scholar. http://faculty.virginia.edu/OldEnglish/Guide.Readings/Alfred.html

I can accept the argument that with a prayerbook that contains side by side translations and a lot of effort on your part that you can obtain a degree of understanding of what the services are conveying. (You are going to spend a lot of time with your 'nose in the book' however.)  I can  also accept the 'feeling' and 'sensual' argument in support of using a dead language up to a point. But I can't accept the argument that the 'old languages' are somehow more proper, more 'Orthodox' or more 'authentic' than the spoken tongue. I think that there is a place for the retention of some degree of the 'old language', but that the predominant language should be the one spoken and understood by the congregation.

If that is not the case, then the logic of the argument in support of not being able to properly translate liturgical prose from their original texts should dictate the use of the original texts, in their original form,using the language of the era in which they were written. Obviously that would remove Slavonic from the table and lead to a babble of conflicting source material in different archaic languages.

I remember when my niece was baptized Lutheran, and I noticed the vow to give the child a copy of the scriptures when they became of age, and it dawned on me how non-apostolic such a thing it was, as the vast majority of Christians up until the modern age 1) could not read or write and 2) couldn't afford their private copy of the Bible.  I reject the excuse of a prayer book with translation as solving the problem on the same basis, Protestant innovation.

I have indeed always wished that I could take part in the services without needing to be looking down at a book the whole time (not the DL, everyone knows that by heart, but the less frequent services). I sometimes wonder what it's like to understand all the words. I also do not quite believe Chtets when he says that everone who speaks Greek can understand Koine anyway. There are many, many people in my parish from Greece, and they do not comprehend the Epistle or Gospel in Greek at all. At all.
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« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2010, 03:13:23 PM »

Christos Voskres!
The same thing with Old English, why shouldn't our schoolchildren have the opportunity to read Beowulf in its original tongue, or the homilies of the Old English Saints etc. This does not help your case, at all. The older forms of Greek were taught in Greek schools at one point, so in that case the Greek should have been readily accessible to the people. if we taught Old English in the schools, then having church services in Old English would be just as accessible.
Exactly, you've made my case.

Precisely the point.  Those of us who still retain such a system, as in the Middle East, have the better knowledge and experience than others to comment on whether such a system works and how it 'feels' to possess two such grammars from childhood with an 'in the marrow of the bones', I-language (to employ a term of the generative linguists) intuitive knowledge and access to each of them.  It works, and works very well, and in the liturgical sphere gives us a blessing that I know no other peoples to have: the ability to keep the services (and the sermon, as Greek priests used once to present in katharevousa) in the high register, and to understand them intuitively, letting us delight in them in a way that those who simply memorise prayers in the older form of the tongue likely do not.  And indeed it is effective--there are in fact Arabs whose Arabic education and linguistic competence will have been lacking due to Fracophone and Anglophone schooling and systems (the Lebanese especially, much touted as being multilingual, have a reputation of being behind the rest in Arabic).  Nonetheless, even in such cases, they will still be able to understand a liturgical church service.  The only ones, and given my environment quite bizzare to see, who speak colloquial and draw a complete blank upon listening to the simplest of sentences in classical or modern standard are the children of immigrants who learn to speak capably well, but cannot read or write.

Others who understand the Greek situation are better qualified to comment, but the Greeks functioned similarly and now have lost this advantage of a stronger linguistic competence due to what amounts to a political decision to eradicate a form of the language.  I am trying to imagine how it would like should modern standard actually disappear in the same way where we come from--it appears as a very surreal thing to my mind's eye, especially because even the most abject failure of a student or those who even did not go to the schools (e.g. my uncle, working-class to the bone and dropped out at elementary) still possess some command of it (but in his case pronouncing it in his own accent reflecting his social station--imagine a Cockney geezer reading Shakespeare in his accent, but fully understanding, an image that destroys the polarisation between literary and colloquial).  However, I understand that our situation does not fully parallel that which Greece once had, in that demotiki was in fact a literary language within its own sphere as well (e.g. you would have novels written in the register).
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« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2010, 09:13:40 PM »

The pew book side by side does not work for many people.  However, it is at least an improvement on those many pew books with supposedly side-by-side text that is actually askew and somtimes one language goes onto the following page from another.   What good does side by side do for one who does not know how to read anything but the latin alphabet? 
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« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2010, 10:02:31 PM »

Not really a true test, you are reading it in a controlled environment and you do know the modern English version and have that patterned in your brain. Hence, it is easier to translate.

I found a link to an 11th century reading of the Our Father. Close your eyes and don't follow the screen while you listen to it. I don't think you can honestly say that you 'comprehend' or 'understand' it as read.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl-OZ3breE   While some words come through to the modern ear, a modern English speaker would pick out some recognizable words in many languages including German, French, Spanish and even Latin.

A less commonly heard set of prayers or readings, even something that we hear with some degree of regularity such as the Paschal Canon, would no doubt be as incomprehensible to the the modern English speaker as would Church Slavonic or liturgical Greek. Here is a link to a series of prose readings in Old English that are likely unfamiliar to the non-classics scholar. http://faculty.virginia.edu/OldEnglish/Guide.Readings/Alfred.html

You are correct. I don't deny that a certain amount of learning would be necessary. But it can be done, just as the Greek can be done, especially for native Greek speakers. Not that I would advocate we switch to Old English, but it can be done. Similarly, my initial exposure to Shakespearean English in High School, it was practically a new language. But with extended exposure I managed to pick it up. Should we argue for archaic languages to be used in Church Services?? I'm not so sure. But it is not clear at all that the people could not pick up the language without some effort. I picked up liturgical Ukrainian in 18 months, and have long since ditched the books as a distraction.

and I'm inclined to agree, as I favor Katharevousa (which would still justify modification of the texts). But neither he nor I (nor you?) are Greek, and the Greeks have decided otherwise.  So either the Holy Synod should come out an advocate for turning back the tide, or it is going to have to go with the linguistic flow.

Don't be so quick to claim that Reader is not Greek...
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« Reply #189 on: April 22, 2010, 09:00:04 PM »

Quote
Quote from: ialmisry on Yesterday at 08:57:11 AM
and I'm inclined to agree, as I favor Katharevousa (which would still justify modification of the texts). But neither he nor I (nor you?) are Greek, and the Greeks have decided otherwise.  So either the Holy Synod should come out an advocate for turning back the tide, or it is going to have to go with the linguistic flow.

Quote
Quote from: Ukiemister:
Don't be so quick to claim that Reader is not Greek...

See, now I do believe I forgot to mention to ialmisry that I am Greek. And that I speak Greek, and that I read Greek, and that I write Greek, and even that Greek is my first language that I picked up when I was 2 or 3. My second post on this I translated 1/3 of an article by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos from Greek into English, the other 2/3 I threw into google translator. Someone wasn't paying attention, and obviously could not u n d e r s t a n d (lovely word isn't it!) that when someone can translate from Greek to English, they must know Greek.

 As I said before, being perfectly qualified to say so: the difference between modern and ancient Greek is this: modern Greek is my translation, ancient is what comes out of the translator. If you use the nogin the good Lord gave you, comprehension isn't that hard.

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« Reply #190 on: April 22, 2010, 09:41:24 PM »

^
Church for the masses...NO! Only, for those with a noggin.
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« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2010, 09:42:55 PM »

Quote
Quote from: ialmisry on Yesterday at 08:57:11 AM
and I'm inclined to agree, as I favor Katharevousa (which would still justify modification of the texts). But neither he nor I (nor you?) are Greek, and the Greeks have decided otherwise.  So either the Holy Synod should come out an advocate for turning back the tide, or it is going to have to go with the linguistic flow.

Quote
Quote from: Ukiemister:
Don't be so quick to claim that Reader is not Greek...

See, now I do believe I forgot to mention to ialmisry that I am Greek. And that I speak Greek, and that I read Greek, and that I write Greek, and even that Greek is my first language that I picked up when I was 2 or 3. My second post on this I translated 1/3 of an article by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos from Greek into English, the other 2/3 I threw into google translator. Someone wasn't paying attention, and obviously could not u n d e r s t a n d (lovely word isn't it!) that when someone can translate from Greek to English, they must know Greek.

But it doesn't mean they are Greek. I can translate Greek (and u n d e r s t a n d Tongue the services), but I am NOT Greek. Not that there is anything wrong with being Greek. Btw, I was going by your jursdiction, my mistake.

It does seem you are in "Diaspora," no?  There are the issues of those whose sole/primary language would be Greek (i.e. those in Greece and Cyprus), and those who may be fluent at it, but have another languages to express themselves (e.g. Canada), but I leave it to Greece and its Diaspora to work their issues out.

Quote
As I said before, being perfectly qualified to say so: the difference between modern and ancient Greek is this: modern Greek is my translation, ancient is what comes out of the translator.

Now that I don't u n d e r s t a n d.  What do you mean?

Quote
If you use the nogin the good Lord gave you, comprehension isn't that hard.
Translation is.  But that's why the good Lord gave us a nogin.
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« Reply #192 on: April 22, 2010, 09:43:34 PM »

^
Church for the masses...NO! Only, for those with a noggin.

Gnosticism, anyone?
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« Reply #193 on: April 22, 2010, 10:01:15 PM »

^
Church for the masses...NO! Only, for those with a noggin.

Gnosticism, anyone?

Ahh, the esoteric secrets of Christianity...
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« Reply #194 on: July 13, 2011, 11:57:15 PM »

Rufus there is always a point in going to Church. If you were to have told me there is no point in going to Orthros when I was 7 yrs old because I couldn't understand, well I wouldn't be where I am today.

Which is where?
As a little kid I learned from going to Vespers and Orthros and I eventually became involved in reading/the choir. Going to Church is like standing under the sun. Whether you know whats going on, or rationally understand anything at all, it still benefits you. The sun is still hitting you. I hope people "understand" that analogy  Smiley
Certainly explains a lot about the unintelligibility of many of your posts.

The DL is a λογικὴ λατρεία, not a mindless day lolling on the beach.  We are not ἄλογα ζῷα to be loaded on the Ark.
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« Reply #195 on: July 14, 2011, 12:07:35 AM »

Rufus there is always a point in going to Church. If you were to have told me there is no point in going to Orthros when I was 7 yrs old because I couldn't understand, well I wouldn't be where I am today.

Which is where?
As a little kid I learned from going to Vespers and Orthros and I eventually became involved in reading/the choir. Going to Church is like standing under the sun. Whether you know whats going on, or rationally understand anything at all, it still benefits you. The sun is still hitting you. I hope people "understand" that analogy  Smiley
Certainly explains a lot about the unintelligibility of many of your posts.

The DL is a λογικὴ λατρεία, not a mindless day lolling on the beach.  We are not ἄλογα ζῷα to be loaded on the Ark.

You are so right!

Unintelligibility of my posts? You're taking this thread off topic. I think the moderator should split the thread if he feels so inclined into a new one called "The unintelligibility of Chtets Ioann's posts".
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« Reply #196 on: July 14, 2011, 12:13:06 AM »

Rufus there is always a point in going to Church. If you were to have told me there is no point in going to Orthros when I was 7 yrs old because I couldn't understand, well I wouldn't be where I am today.

Which is where?
As a little kid I learned from going to Vespers and Orthros and I eventually became involved in reading/the choir. Going to Church is like standing under the sun. Whether you know whats going on, or rationally understand anything at all, it still benefits you. The sun is still hitting you. I hope people "understand" that analogy  Smiley
Certainly explains a lot about the unintelligibility of many of your posts.

The DL is a λογικὴ λατρεία, not a mindless day lolling on the beach.  We are not ἄλογα ζῷα to be loaded on the Ark.

You are so right!

Unintelligibility of my posts? You're taking this thread off topic. I think the moderator should split the thread if he feels so inclined into a new one called "The unintelligibility of Chtets Ioann's posts".
Don't tempt us.
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« Reply #197 on: July 14, 2011, 12:21:55 AM »

Rufus there is always a point in going to Church. If you were to have told me there is no point in going to Orthros when I was 7 yrs old because I couldn't understand, well I wouldn't be where I am today.

Which is where?
As a little kid I learned from going to Vespers and Orthros and I eventually became involved in reading/the choir. Going to Church is like standing under the sun. Whether you know whats going on, or rationally understand anything at all, it still benefits you. The sun is still hitting you. I hope people "understand" that analogy  Smiley
Certainly explains a lot about the unintelligibility of many of your posts.

The DL is a λογικὴ λατρεία, not a mindless day lolling on the beach.  We are not ἄλογα ζῷα to be loaded on the Ark.

You are so right!

Unintelligibility of my posts? You're taking this thread off topic. I think the moderator should split the thread if he feels so inclined into a new one called "The unintelligibility of Chtets Ioann's posts".
Don't tempt us.

How am I tempting you? Ialmisry has said my posts are unintelligable - and on the public forum. Well, he should either retract his comments or the thread should be split off into the private forum where the unintelligability of my posts can be discussed.
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« Reply #198 on: July 14, 2011, 12:28:53 AM »

Perhaps the Synod of Greece could consider publishing a parallel translation from ecclesiastical Greek to modern Greek, for use during the Divine Services.  I am second generation Greek-American, never educated in the Greek language, who grew up hearing the Liturgy exclusively in Greek.  I speak a very broken modern Greek, only as a result of communicating with my grandparents of blessed memory in my youth.  The services of our church began being conducted in partial English during my older teenage years, the late 1960's.  When I hear ecclesiastical Greek, my mind automatically translates it into English, as a result of my having followed the services in English from the parallel text that was in the pews.  I can't believe the ecclesiastical Greek is such a hindrance to understanding the services in Greece; its just not that much of a different language.  

(What bothers me about the statement, is that in Greece, they refer to the Liturgy in English as the "Mass," strictly a Roman Catholic term.  I can't understand why they can't substitute the term "Liturgy;" American Greek Orthodox Christians have never referred to the Liturgy as the "Mass," in English.  [Perhaps is was used obscurely, but never commonly.]  I wish at least at the level of the Synod, why the American Greek Orthodox clergy can't impres upon the Greeks how wrong it is to refer to the Liturgy in Roman Catholic terminology.)
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« Reply #199 on: July 14, 2011, 12:32:00 AM »

Rufus there is always a point in going to Church. If you were to have told me there is no point in going to Orthros when I was 7 yrs old because I couldn't understand, well I wouldn't be where I am today.

Which is where?
As a little kid I learned from going to Vespers and Orthros and I eventually became involved in reading/the choir. Going to Church is like standing under the sun. Whether you know whats going on, or rationally understand anything at all, it still benefits you. The sun is still hitting you. I hope people "understand" that analogy  Smiley
Certainly explains a lot about the unintelligibility of many of your posts.

The DL is a λογικὴ λατρεία, not a mindless day lolling on the beach.  We are not ἄλογα ζῷα to be loaded on the Ark.

You are so right!

Unintelligibility of my posts? You're taking this thread off topic. I think the moderator should split the thread if he feels so inclined into a new one called "The unintelligibility of Chtets Ioann's posts".
Don't tempt us.

How am I tempting you? Ialmisry has said my posts are unintelligable - and on the public forum. Well, he should either retract his comments or the thread should be split off into the private forum where the unintelligability of my posts can be discussed.
If you want the moderators to split this thread, the best thing to do is use the "Report to Moderator" function to report the first post of the tangent you would like to have split.
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« Reply #200 on: July 14, 2011, 12:46:16 AM »

Perhaps the Synod of Greece could consider publishing a parallel translation from ecclesiastical Greek to modern Greek, for use during the Divine Services.  I am second generation Greek-American, never educated in the Greek language, who grew up hearing the Liturgy exclusively in Greek.  I speak a very broken modern Greek, only as a result of communicating with my grandparents of blessed memory in my youth.  The services of our church began being conducted in partial English during my older teenage years, the late 1960's.  When I hear ecclesiastical Greek, my mind automatically translates it into English, as a result of my having followed the services in English from the parallel text that was in the pews.  I can't believe the ecclesiastical Greek is such a hindrance to understanding the services in Greece; its just not that much of a different language.
Often that can be just the problem. That's often why native speakers of a foreign language often fail it in school while English speakers get As. No interference.

this recently came up:
Btw, for those who claim that the Greek of the DL isn't a problem, the origianl
«Θυμίαμά Σοι προσφέρομεν Χριστέ ο Θεός εις οσμήν ευωδίας πνευματικής, ο προσδεξάμενος εις το υπερουράνιόν Σου θυσιαστήριον, αντικατάπεμψον ημίν την χάριν του Παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος».
is glossed as
Θυμίαμα σ' Εσένα προσφέρουμε, Χριστέ Ύψιστε Θεέ, ως οσμή ευωδίας πνευματικής· αυτό, αφού δέχθηκες στο υπερουράνιό Σου Θυσιαστήριο, στείλε πίσω σε μας τη χάρη του παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος

Many people can't understand, or misunderstand, Shakespeare, and Shakespeare is closer to Modern English than Attic/Classical/Koine and even Katharevousa (officially dead?) Modern Greek.

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« Reply #201 on: July 14, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

«Θυμίαμά Σοι προσφέρομεν Χριστέ ο Θεός εις οσμήν ευωδίας πνευματικής, ο προσδεξάμενος εις το υπερουράνιόν Σου θυσιαστήριον, αντικατάπεμψον ημίν την χάριν του Παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος»

... is much easier for me to figure out than ...

«Θυμίαμα σ' Εσένα προσφέρουμε, Χριστέ Ύψιστε Θεέ, ως οσμή ευωδίας πνευματικής· αυτό, αφού δέχθηκες στο υπερουράνιό Σου Θυσιαστήριο, στείλε πίσω σε μας τη χάρη του παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος»

... even though neither is beyond my powers of apprehension as someone who is as terrible at modern demotic as he is koine.

I just hope the Greek Church in Australia moves to implement services entirely in reverential modern English before it even thinks of modernising the Greek!

The situation in Greece is, of course, not the same.
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« Reply #202 on: July 14, 2011, 08:21:07 AM »

I was born in Greece and I attended primary and two years of high school before my family moved to Australia at the age of 12. I was an average student at best!

Upon arrival to Australia, I completely ignored Greek and focussed on English. I only practised Greek when we spoke at home. In my mid-thirties I turned back to the Church. I would say my level of Greek is still no better than that of a 12 year old.

Since turning back, I've never felt that my lack of understanding of the language of the DL is a problem. Have I wished that I could understand more/all? Sure, but to turn to my priest and say that I can't come because I don’t understand, is such a distortion of the truth that its almost an outright lie.

What a lot of the forum members would not know is that Greeks in Greece get exposed to many of the 'flavours' of the Greek languages through the school, media, family and traditions. It is not as if these old forms of Greek are alien to us. If _I_ can read the Gospels with little trouble, ignorant as I am, how much more the Greek natives who have completed Greek middle school + high school (grades 7-12)?

I find it strange that in this day and age when the general population of Greece is educated, school is compulsory and funded by government (books and all), that there are people who use this as an excuse. Even more strange that Church bishops accept this excuse.

What should our grandfathers and mothers say then, when most of them were almost illiterate? My younger brother, even less educated than me, has never once said that language is a problem. His wife, a Romanian Orthodox with a surprising good command of modern Greek, attends Church and she's never complained. Work, sure. But the language, this is reaching I think.

I am not saying that the Church should turn these people away or ignore their 'concern' but to make such large scale changes to the DL, for a minority (numbers anyone?), is not necessary and would be very damaging I think. I particularly liked the idea of another poster who mentioned of the Latin mass in a side by side format. That I believe is the way the Church should move.

As for Greeks outside Greece, there is little to none of the exposure that I mentioned above. In fact, the sooner the Greek Churches outside Greece start using English or whatever the native language is, the better.

Peace.
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« Reply #203 on: July 14, 2011, 09:01:04 AM »

Goodness, as a second generation American who is Orthodox and of Slavic background, I can not believe that the idea of having a 'side by side' prayer book for the faithful is viewed as a novel idea by some of you?

The Chlib Dusi (Our Daily Bread)  prayerbook was published with 'side by side' Slavonic and English in the 1920's in both a Ruthenian Greek Catholic version and in an Orthodox version by separate publishers.

"Chlib Dusi" (Fr. Alexander Duchovic's 19th century compilation)  was extensively used in the Metropolia and the ACROD during the 1930's through the 1970's when their own English liturgical books became available. Both ACROD and the OCA have become predominately English in their liturgics and the early availability of these texts undoubtedly was the impetus to the relatively seamless change which occured over the past forty years in this regard in both jurisdictions.  One of the first actions of ACROD in the 1940's was to prepare a simple prayer book for young people called 'Key to Heaven' which contained 'side by side' versions of common daily prayers, the Liturgy and troparions.

I had the good fortune to learn to chant in both the traditional Slavonic and in English. This past weekend we were visiting out of town where an old classmate from home is the pastor and he asked me to lead the responses and we broke out the old 'Chlib Dusi' and sang much of the Liturgy in Slavonic. It made the priest, some of the congregation and me feel 'warm and fuzzy', but I looked out and realized that for more than half of those present, it was a tedious exercise in nostalgia as their experience in the Church didn't contain fond memories of days gone by.


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« Reply #204 on: July 14, 2011, 09:52:28 AM »



You know, I recently converted (to ROCOR).  I was raised a Catholic and am old enough to remember the Latin Mass.  We'd carry our Missals to Church; on one side was the Latin and on the other side of the book/missal was the English translation.  We all read along with the Service.  Many of us memorized both the English and the Latin, so we knew easily what was being said.  It wasn't a problem.  In fact, once the Roman Church changed to English Service completely, it was just awful.  (along with those horrible Guitars in the background; why do those who occasionally pluck a guitar think they are gifted in music?  ...but that's another story). 

Sounds like us during Holy Week, spending the services with our noses in books. I hear young Roman Catholics saying they hate the Latin Mass; but I've never heard older folks complain.

Of course, following along is not an option for services like Orthros--many of the hymns change weekly, and it is difficult to find an orthros book. There is no point in people coming to such services if they have no chance of understanding. But during the Liturgy, language isn't really a big barrier as long as you're willing to take the trouble to look in the book until you get used to it.

I wish more people were willing to take that trouble.
[/quote]

Latin used to be taught in English schools at one time and is still taught in some of the private schools. but the majority of modern catholics just would not understand it.

I think it is very important to understand the Divine Liturgy or mass when you go to church, this way you grow spiritually and have a better understanding of your faith. plus how can you talk to people about the service after church, if you don't understand it.
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« Reply #205 on: July 14, 2011, 10:23:26 AM »

I was born in Greece and I attended primary and two years of high school before my family moved to Australia at the age of 12. I was an average student at best!

Upon arrival to Australia, I completely ignored Greek and focussed on English. I only practised Greek when we spoke at home. In my mid-thirties I turned back to the Church. I would say my level of Greek is still no better than that of a 12 year old.

Since turning back, I've never felt that my lack of understanding of the language of the DL is a problem. Have I wished that I could understand more/all? Sure, but to turn to my priest and say that I can't come because I don’t understand, is such a distortion of the truth that its almost an outright lie.

What a lot of the forum members would not know is that Greeks in Greece get exposed to many of the 'flavours' of the Greek languages through the school, media, family and traditions. It is not as if these old forms of Greek are alien to us. If _I_ can read the Gospels with little trouble, ignorant as I am, how much more the Greek natives who have completed Greek middle school + high school (grades 7-12)?

I find it strange that in this day and age when the general population of Greece is educated, school is compulsory and funded by government (books and all), that there are people who use this as an excuse. Even more strange that Church bishops accept this excuse.

What should our grandfathers and mothers say then, when most of them were almost illiterate? My younger brother, even less educated than me, has never once said that language is a problem. His wife, a Romanian Orthodox with a surprising good command of modern Greek, attends Church and she's never complained. Work, sure. But the language, this is reaching I think.

I am not saying that the Church should turn these people away or ignore their 'concern' but to make such large scale changes to the DL, for a minority (numbers anyone?),
The majority?

Ever since the state removed the staying hand of Katharevousa in '75, with all that that entailed, the ever accelerating demoticization of the language, with all that that entails, has removed the language of Greece from its roots.  Back when Katharevousa, and before it Romaic, ruled, even the illiterate were exposed.  Now, as all media move further into Demotic, that context and background is fading into the background.  Soon, if not already, going to DL in Greece will be like listening to Beowolf recited in Anglo-Saxon:sure entertaining, but does that go down to the bone?

Do some people use this as an excuse? Sure, but reasons make the best excuses.

Quote
is not necessary and would be very damaging I think. I particularly liked the idea of another poster who mentioned of the Latin mass in a side by side format. That I believe is the way the Church should move.
Most Bibles (or, rather, NT: the Greeks don't publish many OT, giving a VERY skewed idea of Scripture) I've seen for mass consumption are already printed side by side.  It is comparing the two that you can see how the language has changed.  The Evangelika riots were fighting against reality.
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« Reply #206 on: July 14, 2011, 11:21:33 AM »

«Θυμίαμά Σοι προσφέρομεν Χριστέ ο Θεός εις οσμήν ευωδίας πνευματικής, ο προσδεξάμενος εις το υπερουράνιόν Σου θυσιαστήριον, αντικατάπεμψον ημίν την χάριν του Παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος»

... is much easier for me to figure out than ...

«Θυμίαμα σ' Εσένα προσφέρουμε, Χριστέ Ύψιστε Θεέ, ως οσμή ευωδίας πνευματικής· αυτό, αφού δέχθηκες στο υπερουράνιό Σου Θυσιαστήριο, στείλε πίσω σε μας τη χάρη του παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος»

Indeed. This specific comparison highlights just how similar the language still is. Much closer than I realized. One semester of high school level instruction would clarify the major grammatical differences (the dative case, a fulsome use of the participle, verbal conjugation) and some very minor ones (e.g. the loss of a terminal ni and the personal pronouns).
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« Reply #207 on: July 14, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »

«Θυμίαμά Σοι προσφέρομεν Χριστέ ο Θεός εις οσμήν ευωδίας πνευματικής, ο προσδεξάμενος εις το υπερουράνιόν Σου θυσιαστήριον, αντικατάπεμψον ημίν την χάριν του Παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος»

... is much easier for me to figure out than ...

«Θυμίαμα σ' Εσένα προσφέρουμε, Χριστέ Ύψιστε Θεέ, ως οσμή ευωδίας πνευματικής· αυτό, αφού δέχθηκες στο υπερουράνιό Σου Θυσιαστήριο, στείλε πίσω σε μας τη χάρη του παναγίου Σου Πνεύματος»

Indeed. This specific comparison highlights just how similar the language still is. Much closer than I realized. One semester of high school level instruction would clarify the major grammatical differences (the dative case, a fulsome use of the participle, verbal conjugation) and some very minor ones (e.g. the loss of a terminal ni and the personal pronouns).
Btw, how did the Ύψιστε get in there?
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« Reply #208 on: July 14, 2011, 11:39:16 AM »

Btw, how did the Ύψιστε get in there?

Interpolation, I assume. Perhaps the translator was trying to emphasize the highness of God, since he will be asked to send down the grace of the All-Holy Spirit upon us.

But, basically, it's not there in the original. It's also an awfully awkward phrase from a poetic point of view. Shows you the wisdom of Koine in treating the nominative as a vocative when needed.
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« Reply #209 on: August 11, 2011, 05:53:48 AM »

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but this page says that I wanted to say so much better that I could not resist.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/47681.htm

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« Reply #210 on: August 11, 2011, 08:01:29 AM »

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but this page says that I wanted to say so much better that I could not resist.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/47681.htm



Sorry to disagree, but the article is the 'same old, same old' in terms of argument. It does nothing convince those of us who worship in the spoken language to change.

I think that one of the truly beautiful things about our Orthodox faith is that, unlike the Roman Church, we have always allowed room for different linguistic expressions of the Liturgy. Unlike the post Vatican 2 experience, we will never suppress the Koine Greek or Slavonic for those who desire to use them in their parish life. Likewise, we should never seek to impose new ways on those who don't wish to experience them. That isn't to say that this parish or that priest will not use or prefer one over the other, merely that i the 'big' picture, the faithful will find ways to preserve the old as well.
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« Reply #211 on: August 11, 2011, 08:36:22 AM »

I think that many people in these discussion are confused about two concepts: that of having an adequately elavated style in Liturgical language and intelligibility.

Dead languages are not intelligible. It is as simple as that. Just look at this transcription of the Lord's Prayer in Old English (pre-11th century):

Quote
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum, si þin nama gehalgod. To becume þin rice, gewurþe ðin willa, on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg, and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum. And ne gelæd þu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. Soþlice.

Or today's reading in Wycliffe's 14th century English:

Quote
1Cor 14:6-19
 But now, britheren, if Y come to you, and speke in langagis, what schal Y profite to you, but if Y speke to you ethir in reuelacioun, ethir in science, ethir in prophecie, ether in techyng?
 For tho thingis that ben withouten soule, and yyueth voices, ethir pipe, ether harpe, but tho yyuen distinccioun of sownyngis, hou schal it be knowun that is sungun, ether that that is trumpid?
For if a trumpe yyue an vncerteyn soune, who schal make hym silf redi to batel?
So but ye yyuen an opyn word bi tunge, hou schal that that is seid be knowun? For ye schulen be spekynge in veyn.
 There ben many kyndis of langagis in this world, and no thing is with outen vois.
 But if Y knowe not the vertu of a vois, Y schal be to hym, to whom Y schal speke, a barbarik; and he that spekith to me, schal be a barbarik.
 So ye, for ye ben loueris of spiritis, seke ye that ye be plenteuouse to edificacioun of the chirche.
 And therfor he that spekith in langage, preie, that he expowne.
 For if Y preye in tunge, my spirit preieth; myn vndurstondyng is with outen fruyt.
 What thanne? Y schal preye in spirit, Y schal preye in mynde; Y schal seie salm, in spirit, Y schal seie salm also in mynde.
 For if thou blessist in spirit, who fillith the place of an ydiot, hou schal he seie Amen on thi blessyng, for he woot not, what thou seist?
 For thou doist wel thankyngis, but an othir man is not edefied.
 Y thanke my God, for Y speke in the langage of alle you;
but in the chirche Y wole speke fyue wordis in my wit, that also Y teche othere men, than ten thousynde of wordis in tunge.

Mat. 20-17-28
And Jhesus wente vp to Jerusalem, and took hise twelue disciplis in priuetee, and seide to hem, Lo!
we goon vp to Jerusalem, and mannus sone schal be bitakun to princis of prestis, and scribis; and thei schulen condempne him to deeth.
And thei schulen bitake hym to hethene men, for to be scorned, and scourgid, and crucified; and the thridde day he schal rise ayen to lijf.
 Thanne the modir of the sones of Zebedee cam to hym with hir sones, onourynge, and axynge sum thing of hym.
 And he seide to hir, What wolt thou? She seith to hym, Seie that thes tweyne my sones sitte, oon at thi riythalf, and oon at thi lefthalf, in thi kyngdom.
 Jhesus answeride, and seide, Ye witen not what ye axen. Moun ye drynke the cuppe which Y schal drynke? Thei seien to hym, We moun.
 He seith to hem, Ye schulen drinke my cuppe; but to sitte at my riythalf or lefthalf, it is not myn to yyue to you; but to whiche it is maad redi of my fadir.
 And the ten herynge, hadden indignacioun of the twei britheren.
 But Jhesus clepide hem to hym, and seide, Ye witen, that princis of hethene men ben lordis of hem, and thei that ben gretter, vsen power on hem.
 It schal not be so among you; but who euer wole be maad gretter among you, be he youre mynystre; and who euer among you wole be the firste, he schal be youre seruaunt.
 As mannus sone cam not to be seruyd, but to serue, and to yyue his lijf redempcioun for manye.


"Thou shall not kill" is not old or medieval English. It's lofty modern English. I agree liturgic language must be elavated. But dead languages simply aren't understood and modern languages can easily be.

The problem is that people see it as an all or nothing thing. Either you keep the unintelligible language or liberate it to any kind of translation of the sort of "Yo sky man, respec ya name...". Specially in more institutionalized churches like the Orthodox or Roman, the hierarchy can easily set a committee with standards for modern translations with regular revisions every 50 years.
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« Reply #212 on: August 11, 2011, 08:57:47 AM »

Certainly nothing like this:

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Top angel, Gabriel, picks up his work chit for the day. It reads, ‘Destination: Nazareth. Contact: Mary Davidson. Message: God’s Holy Spirit will get you pregnant with his Liberator.’ Mary can hardly believe it – she’s a virgin: how’s she to have a baby?! But she hears him out, realizes the privilege and goes for it. She’s ecstatic. Joe, her fiancé, isn’t! The only sane conclusion: she’s been putting it about. But a second visit from Gabriel persuades Joe to face the flack from the family and look after his love and her miracle child, Jesus. Meanwhile, on the political front .   .   .
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« Reply #213 on: August 11, 2011, 10:04:18 AM »

Anyone seen the Lolcat bible?  laugh
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« Reply #214 on: August 11, 2011, 10:35:09 AM »

I agree that using a adequately elavated style in Liturgical language can be a good thing, a more modern translation is need for those new to orthodoxy and the young.

I would say that if you gave a King James Bible to any young person, they would have great difficulty in reading and understanding it. it uses words that have not been used for a couple of hundred years.

language is always evolving, never stays still.

when I listen to my younger sister talk, (21 yrs) younger, then most of the time I don't understand what she says.

I prefer to go to a church and fully understand the service, than being there not having a clue of what is going on.

When I go to the English service I can focus on what is being said, when I go to a Greek service my mind wonders as I don't understand it.

by updating the language more will be achieved, and nothing lost.

that is my thoughts anyway.
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« Reply #215 on: August 11, 2011, 10:40:13 AM »

Or today's reading in Wycliffe's 14th century English:

Quote
1Cor 14:6-19
 But now, britheren, if Y come to you, and speke in langagis, what schal Y profite to you, but if Y speke to you ethir in reuelacioun, ethir in science, ethir in prophecie, ether in techyng?
 For tho thingis that ben withouten soule, and yyueth voices, ethir pipe, ether harpe, but tho yyuen distinccioun of sownyngis, hou schal it be knowun that is sungun, ether that that is trumpid?
For if a trumpe yyue an vncerteyn soune, who schal make hym silf redi to batel?
So but ye yyuen an opyn word bi tunge, hou schal that that is seid be knowun? For ye schulen be spekynge in veyn.
 There ben many kyndis of langagis in this world, and no thing is with outen vois.
 But if Y knowe not the vertu of a vois, Y schal be to hym, to whom Y schal speke, a barbarik; and he that spekith to me, schal be a barbarik.
 So ye, for ye ben loueris of spiritis, seke ye that ye be plenteuouse to edificacioun of the chirche.
 And therfor he that spekith in langage, preie, that he expowne.
 For if Y preye in tunge, my spirit preieth; myn vndurstondyng is with outen fruyt.
 What thanne? Y schal preye in spirit, Y schal preye in mynde; Y schal seie salm, in spirit, Y schal seie salm also in mynde.
 For if thou blessist in spirit, who fillith the place of an ydiot, hou schal he seie Amen on thi blessyng, for he woot not, what thou seist?
 For thou doist wel thankyngis, but an othir man is not edefied.
 Y thanke my God, for Y speke in the langage of alle you;
but in the chirche Y wole speke fyue wordis in my wit, that also Y teche othere men, than ten thousynde of wordis in tunge.

Mat. 20-17-28
And Jhesus wente vp to Jerusalem, and took hise twelue disciplis in priuetee, and seide to hem, Lo!
we goon vp to Jerusalem, and mannus sone schal be bitakun to princis of prestis, and scribis; and thei schulen condempne him to deeth.
And thei schulen bitake hym to hethene men, for to be scorned, and scourgid, and crucified; and the thridde day he schal rise ayen to lijf.
 Thanne the modir of the sones of Zebedee cam to hym with hir sones, onourynge, and axynge sum thing of hym.
 And he seide to hir, What wolt thou? She seith to hym, Seie that thes tweyne my sones sitte, oon at thi riythalf, and oon at thi lefthalf, in thi kyngdom.
 Jhesus answeride, and seide, Ye witen not what ye axen. Moun ye drynke the cuppe which Y schal drynke? Thei seien to hym, We moun.
 He seith to hem, Ye schulen drinke my cuppe; but to sitte at my riythalf or lefthalf, it is not myn to yyue to you; but to whiche it is maad redi of my fadir.
 And the ten herynge, hadden indignacioun of the twei britheren.
 But Jhesus clepide hem to hym, and seide, Ye witen, that princis of hethene men ben lordis of hem, and thei that ben gretter, vsen power on hem.
 It schal not be so among you; but who euer wole be maad gretter among you, be he youre mynystre; and who euer among you wole be the firste, he schal be youre seruaunt.
 As mannus sone cam not to be seruyd, but to serue, and to yyue his lijf redempcioun for manye.

Actually most of this would be intelligible if the spelling were modernized.

I also think the difficulty of the KJV is exaggerated. If I read out a sentence at random from the KJV, chances are it would be easily understood and not contain words unfamiliar to modern English speakers.

That said, I am not sure that the inclusion of "thou" and "thee" is really an indication of lofty English. English can be lofty and use "you" and there's much doggerel containing "thou." The trouble is, most translators today don't seem to have a grasp of poetics and produce clunky renditions of church hymns- and this seems to be the case whether someone is using "you" or "thou."
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« Reply #216 on: August 11, 2011, 11:45:52 AM »

Or today's reading in Wycliffe's 14th century English:

Quote
1Cor 14:6-19
 But now, britheren, if Y come to you, and speke in langagis, what schal Y profite to you, but if Y speke to you ethir in reuelacioun, ethir in science, ethir in prophecie, ether in techyng?
 For tho thingis that ben withouten soule, and yyueth voices, ethir pipe, ether harpe, but tho yyuen distinccioun of sownyngis, hou schal it be knowun that is sungun, ether that that is trumpid?
For if a trumpe yyue an vncerteyn soune, who schal make hym silf redi to batel?
So but ye yyuen an opyn word bi tunge, hou schal that that is seid be knowun? For ye schulen be spekynge in veyn.
 There ben many kyndis of langagis in this world, and no thing is with outen vois.
 But if Y knowe not the vertu of a vois, Y schal be to hym, to whom Y schal speke, a barbarik; and he that spekith to me, schal be a barbarik.
 So ye, for ye ben loueris of spiritis, seke ye that ye be plenteuouse to edificacioun of the chirche.
 And therfor he that spekith in langage, preie, that he expowne.
 For if Y preye in tunge, my spirit preieth; myn vndurstondyng is with outen fruyt.
 What thanne? Y schal preye in spirit, Y schal preye in mynde; Y schal seie salm, in spirit, Y schal seie salm also in mynde.
 For if thou blessist in spirit, who fillith the place of an ydiot, hou schal he seie Amen on thi blessyng, for he woot not, what thou seist?
 For thou doist wel thankyngis, but an othir man is not edefied.
 Y thanke my God, for Y speke in the langage of alle you;
but in the chirche Y wole speke fyue wordis in my wit, that also Y teche othere men, than ten thousynde of wordis in tunge.

Mat. 20-17-28
And Jhesus wente vp to Jerusalem, and took hise twelue disciplis in priuetee, and seide to hem, Lo!
we goon vp to Jerusalem, and mannus sone schal be bitakun to princis of prestis, and scribis; and thei schulen condempne him to deeth.
And thei schulen bitake hym to hethene men, for to be scorned, and scourgid, and crucified; and the thridde day he schal rise ayen to lijf.
 Thanne the modir of the sones of Zebedee cam to hym with hir sones, onourynge, and axynge sum thing of hym.
 And he seide to hir, What wolt thou? She seith to hym, Seie that thes tweyne my sones sitte, oon at thi riythalf, and oon at thi lefthalf, in thi kyngdom.
 Jhesus answeride, and seide, Ye witen not what ye axen. Moun ye drynke the cuppe which Y schal drynke? Thei seien to hym, We moun.
 He seith to hem, Ye schulen drinke my cuppe; but to sitte at my riythalf or lefthalf, it is not myn to yyue to you; but to whiche it is maad redi of my fadir.
 And the ten herynge, hadden indignacioun of the twei britheren.
 But Jhesus clepide hem to hym, and seide, Ye witen, that princis of hethene men ben lordis of hem, and thei that ben gretter, vsen power on hem.
 It schal not be so among you; but who euer wole be maad gretter among you, be he youre mynystre; and who euer among you wole be the firste, he schal be youre seruaunt.
 As mannus sone cam not to be seruyd, but to serue, and to yyue his lijf redempcioun for manye.

Actually most of this would be intelligible if the spelling were modernized.

I also think the difficulty of the KJV is exaggerated. If I read out a sentence at random from the KJV, chances are it would be easily understood and not contain words unfamiliar to modern English speakers.

That said, I am not sure that the inclusion of "thou" and "thee" is really an indication of lofty English. English can be lofty and use "you" and there's much doggerel containing "thou." The trouble is, most translators today don't seem to have a grasp of poetics and produce clunky renditions of church hymns- and this seems to be the case whether someone is using "you" or "thou."

I agree completely (except about Wycliffe. I find his writing completely intelligible, it's no more difficult than trying to decipher the average Facebook user's horrid spelling).

What I find "funny" about American Orthodoxy is the clunkiness of our English translations. Of the "big three" jurisdictions not a one has an English Liturgy that doesn't jar the ears at one point or another. The HTM/Jordanville prayerbook debate is also just as silly if one views it by strict translation/poetics guidelines (both are badly clunky). I wonder if it has to do with the falling standards of both education and poetry- in schools here and abroad poetry is seen as unnecessary except as a gloss in "Literature" class, and in the formal field of poetry any piece of nonsense can be heralded as a modern classic. Two hundred years ago any translator could also be expected to have a firm standing in both English and Greek poetry, these days the education has been more specialized, so that someone who has never read the entirety of "Paradise Lost" or Shakespeare's sonnets could be attempting the translation, their only poetic exposure being Homer or Euripides.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion of Demotic Greek vs Koine Greek, save that I think the problem there, as well, has more to do with falling educational standards.
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« Reply #217 on: August 11, 2011, 12:31:22 PM »

Or today's reading in Wycliffe's 14th century English:

Quote
1Cor 14:6-19
 But now, britheren, if Y come to you, and speke in langagis, what schal Y profite to you, but if Y speke to you ethir in reuelacioun, ethir in science, ethir in prophecie, ether in techyng?
 For tho thingis that ben withouten soule, and yyueth voices, ethir pipe, ether harpe, but tho yyuen distinccioun of sownyngis, hou schal it be knowun that is sungun, ether that that is trumpid?
For if a trumpe yyue an vncerteyn soune, who schal make hym silf redi to batel?
So but ye yyuen an opyn word bi tunge, hou schal that that is seid be knowun? For ye schulen be spekynge in veyn.
 There ben many kyndis of langagis in this world, and no thing is with outen vois.
 But if Y knowe not the vertu of a vois, Y schal be to hym, to whom Y schal speke, a barbarik; and he that spekith to me, schal be a barbarik.
 So ye, for ye ben loueris of spiritis, seke ye that ye be plenteuouse to edificacioun of the chirche.
 And therfor he that spekith in langage, preie, that he expowne.
 For if Y preye in tunge, my spirit preieth; myn vndurstondyng is with outen fruyt.
 What thanne? Y schal preye in spirit, Y schal preye in mynde; Y schal seie salm, in spirit, Y schal seie salm also in mynde.
 For if thou blessist in spirit, who fillith the place of an ydiot, hou schal he seie Amen on thi blessyng, for he woot not, what thou seist?
 For thou doist wel thankyngis, but an othir man is not edefied.
 Y thanke my God, for Y speke in the langage of alle you;
but in the chirche Y wole speke fyue wordis in my wit, that also Y teche othere men, than ten thousynde of wordis in tunge.

Mat. 20-17-28
And Jhesus wente vp to Jerusalem, and took hise twelue disciplis in priuetee, and seide to hem, Lo!
we goon vp to Jerusalem, and mannus sone schal be bitakun to princis of prestis, and scribis; and thei schulen condempne him to deeth.
And thei schulen bitake hym to hethene men, for to be scorned, and scourgid, and crucified; and the thridde day he schal rise ayen to lijf.
 Thanne the modir of the sones of Zebedee cam to hym with hir sones, onourynge, and axynge sum thing of hym.
 And he seide to hir, What wolt thou? She seith to hym, Seie that thes tweyne my sones sitte, oon at thi riythalf, and oon at thi lefthalf, in thi kyngdom.
 Jhesus answeride, and seide, Ye witen not what ye axen. Moun ye drynke the cuppe which Y schal drynke? Thei seien to hym, We moun.
 He seith to hem, Ye schulen drinke my cuppe; but to sitte at my riythalf or lefthalf, it is not myn to yyue to you; but to whiche it is maad redi of my fadir.
 And the ten herynge, hadden indignacioun of the twei britheren.
 But Jhesus clepide hem to hym, and seide, Ye witen, that princis of hethene men ben lordis of hem, and thei that ben gretter, vsen power on hem.
 It schal not be so among you; but who euer wole be maad gretter among you, be he youre mynystre; and who euer among you wole be the firste, he schal be youre seruaunt.
 As mannus sone cam not to be seruyd, but to serue, and to yyue his lijf redempcioun for manye.

Actually most of this would be intelligible if the spelling were modernized.

I also think the difficulty of the KJV is exaggerated. If I read out a sentence at random from the KJV, chances are it would be easily understood and not contain words unfamiliar to modern English speakers.

That said, I am not sure that the inclusion of "thou" and "thee" is really an indication of lofty English. English can be lofty and use "you" and there's much doggerel containing "thou." The trouble is, most translators today don't seem to have a grasp of poetics and produce clunky renditions of church hymns- and this seems to be the case whether someone is using "you" or "thou."

I agree completely (except about Wycliffe. I find his writing completely intelligible, it's no more difficult than trying to decipher the average Facebook user's horrid spelling).

What I find "funny" about American Orthodoxy is the clunkiness of our English translations. Of the "big three" jurisdictions not a one has an English Liturgy that doesn't jar the ears at one point or another. The HTM/Jordanville prayerbook debate is also just as silly if one views it by strict translation/poetics guidelines (both are badly clunky). I wonder if it has to do with the falling standards of both education and poetry- in schools here and abroad poetry is seen as unnecessary except as a gloss in "Literature" class, and in the formal field of poetry any piece of nonsense can be heralded as a modern classic. Two hundred years ago any translator could also be expected to have a firm standing in both English and Greek poetry, these days the education has been more specialized, so that someone who has never read the entirety of "Paradise Lost" or Shakespeare's sonnets could be attempting the translation, their only poetic exposure being Homer or Euripides.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion of Demotic Greek vs Koine Greek, save that I think the problem there, as well, has more to do with falling educational standards.

The idea was to compare with the proposal to modernise the language of the Greek liturgy so the modern Greek speaker could understand  it. If we modernize the Wycliffe's spelling than that would be.. modernizing. Smiley

I am a supporter of Classic Latin and Classic Greek being taught at the very first grades of schooling right after the first letters in the mother tongue, preferably with a second modern language. It's the best time to have notions of another language.

*But* I would like to see the Liturgy translated to an elevated form of every modern language. It is true that many translations fail in that miserably, not because of some impossibility of translation as some claim, but because, as mentioned, education has degenerated all over the world. People are educated either to pass exams or to get jobs, not to become better human beings. I love and read about efforts of creating "Classical Education" schools or homeschooling programs. That's the way to go.

As for the English translations, I think it will take some generations to have a standardized and worthy translation, since it will be the product of much prayerful studies that *will* require also high poetic talent and deep scholarly knowledge of both English and Greek. Only God can provide this kind of shining talent.
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