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Ebor
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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2010, 11:30:06 PM »

And I can prove that beyond any reasonable doubt. Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person in first century Galilee.

The mathematical odds of Him being born to a virgin when He was, where He was, fulfilling all of the O.T. prophecies precisely in the way He did... are mindbogglingly, astronomicallly, virtually impossible.

Would you please demostrate how these "mathematical odds" that you claim are proof are calculated?  What are they based upon? 

Quote
Beyond that, an undeniable, scientifically verifiable proof that most Christians never seem to think of - is the Star of Bethlehem! The Star was an actual historical celestial event, which - thanks to today's technology and computer astronomy software, as well as Kepler's laws of planetary motion... can be seen today just as it was seen by the magi over 2,000 years ago.

In fact - the Star of Bethlehem was such a spectacle that many planetariums to this day provide a show of that very Star to the unwitting public, who never know that what they are seeing is that great Star that announced the birth of the King of Kings to the world!


What astronomical object are you thinking of, please?

Ebor
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2010, 11:32:51 PM »


Oh - and BTW...

ARAB MUSLIMS DID NOT  PERPETRATE 9/11!!
 

Oh?  And what information do you have that shows otherwise, please? 
If one is going to make highlighted bald statements, there ought to be some supporting information for such a claim.

Thank you in advance,

Ebor
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« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2010, 02:03:59 AM »

Quote from: Nebelpfade
"Please don't enter the legal system as a barrister and solicitor."

I have no interest in being a liar... er,  I mean lawyer!



Quote from: HandmaidenofGod
"You haven't provided any data, scientific or otherwise, to back up any of your statements.

If you are going to claim something to be scientifically provable on this forum, you better have the data/research to back such a statement up."

Check it out:

Christ Conquers



Quote from: deusveritasest
"Christianity is really the only religion that explains how redemption as we think of it is possible."

(Orthodox) Christianity is not a religion.



Quote from: Ebor
"Would you please demostrate how these "mathematical odds" that you claim are proof are calculated?  What are they based upon?"

They are base upon the prophecies found in the Old Testament regarding the coming of the Messiah; the Christ.

There are hundreds of fulfilled prophecies relating to Jesus being Christ (at least 456). What are the chances that one man (Who was born and died where and when the prophets said He would be) could fulfill them all?

In the late sixties, a man named Peter Stoner who was Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Christ. The estimates were worked out by himself and twelve different classes under his supervision representing some 600 university students.

The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.

However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented.

After examining only eight different prophecies, they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 1017 (100,000,000,000,000,000).

To illustrate how large the number 1017 IS (a figure with 17 zeros), Stoner gave this illustration :

If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten. Suppose that we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They'll cover all of the whole state two feet deep.

Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up just one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one?

Just the same chance that the prophets would've had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man.

But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (even though he could have used 456), and arrived at the still extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is the incredible number 10157.

How large is the number one in 10157? 10157 contains 157 zeros! Stoner gives an illustration of this number using electrons. Electrons are very small objects. They're smaller than atoms. It would take more than 2.5 TIMES 1,000,000,000,000,000 of them, laid side by side, to make one inch. Even if we counted 250 of these electrons each minute, and counted day and night, it would still take 19 million years just to count a line of electrons one-inch long. 

With this introduction, let's go back to our chance of one in 10157. Let's suppose that we're taking this number of electrons, marking one, and thoroughly stirring it into the whole mass, then blindfolding a man and letting him try to find the right one. What chance has he of finding the right one?

This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is vastly smaller. Once one goes past one chance in 1050, the probabilities are so small that it is all but impossible to think that they will ever occur.

As Stoner concludes in his book (Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969),"Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world." (Stoner, op. cit., 112)

God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ.

Quote
"What astronomical object are you thinking of, please?"

The Star of Bethlehem!
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« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2010, 03:06:20 AM »

Dear Ebor,

I said, "ARAB MUSLIMS DID NOT PERPETRATE 9/11!!"

Then you said:

Quote
"Oh?  And what information do you have that shows otherwise, please? 
If one is going to make highlighted bald statements, there ought to be some supporting information for such a claim.

Thank you in advance,"

No problem... Thanks for asking!




Click on these:

'Jews' Did 9/11

Missing Links: The Movie

How 9/11 Was Done

The Ugly Truth Podcast: Mar 15

The Ugly Truth Podcast: Mar 24
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« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2010, 03:15:06 AM »

It seems we have a disciple of Brother Nathaniel here. Or, perhaps, Br Nathaniel himself. ...  Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2010, 08:51:47 AM »

I've systematically refuted this lying idiocy before, and if the moderators are willing, I'll do it again. But you know, Saint Iaint, it's only going to end in you being banned.
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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2010, 01:31:37 PM »

I have to say, that "IX XI" graphic is pretty whack.
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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2010, 02:05:47 PM »

Quote from: LBK
"It seems we have a disciple of Brother Nathanael here. Or, perhaps, Br Nathanael himself."

A "disciple"? That's a little off... but I have read everything on his website, and I have commented there also. I am not Br. Nathanael. My name is Joshua.

Did you even click on the links I provided - or are you too wise to even look?

Quote from: Keble
"I've systematically refuted this lying idiocy before, and if the moderators are willing, I'll do it again. But you know, Saint Iaint, it's only going to end in you being banned."

"Lying idiocy"?

Not only are you insulting me... but you are also bearing false witness against me. I am NOT a liar!

And a professed Protestant is going to get me banned from Orthodox Christianity.net? Good luck w/ that. It is already proven (by the fact that you are a Protestant) that the truth is not readily apparent to you!

Did you know that Martin Luther in the end came to the conclusion that the Greek Orthodox Church was the true New Testament Church he was searching for? Sadly he mistakenly thought that the Greek Church was defunct.

If he had found the Church - you'd probably be Orthodox right now!

Anyhow, perhaps you could just point me to the thread where you've "systematically refuted" my assertions so I can see where you're coming from?

Quote from: Jetavan
"I have to say, that 'IX XI' graphic is pretty whack."

I thought it was pretty clever. More importantly - it's true. And the gangsta-slang you're using really should read 'wack', you know. (Short for 'wacky'.)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 02:09:28 PM by Saint Iaint » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2010, 03:31:31 PM »


Quote from: Jetavan
"I have to say, that 'IX XI' graphic is pretty whack."

I thought it was pretty clever. More importantly - it's true. And the gangsta-slang you're using really should read 'wack', you know. (Short for 'wacky'.)
"Whack" is an acceptable alternative spelling, dating back to 1951.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 03:33:05 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2010, 05:40:17 PM »


Quote from: Ebor
"Would you please demostrate how these "mathematical odds" that you claim are proof are calculated?  What are they based upon?"

They are base upon the prophecies found in the Old Testament regarding the coming of the Messiah; the Christ.

There are hundreds of fulfilled prophecies relating to Jesus being Christ (at least 456). What are the chances that one man (Who was born and died where and when the prophets said He would be) could fulfill them all?

In the late sixties, a man named Peter Stoner who was Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Christ. The estimates were worked out by himself and twelve different classes under his supervision representing some 600 university students.

Thank you for the name.  I shall have to do some research as to the qualifications and findings.

I am familiar with powers of 10 and such mathematics. One question is how the probability of various "fulfillment of prophecy" were arrived at.

Quote
Quote
"What astronomical object are you thinking of, please?"

The Star of Bethlehem!

I know that you were making a claim about the Star of Bethlehem. Perhaps I was not clear in my question.  Are you saying that a particular celestial object *is visible today* and is the Star?  or are you saying that the planetarium shows show the star?  What do you say the Star was? I'm asking as some theorize that it was a conjunction of planets or a comet.

Ebor
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« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2010, 05:44:17 PM »

I thought it was pretty clever. More importantly - it's true.

It's "true" that if six lines are moved about and two are bent in half that they can form a Magen David.  The same six lines could be moved in other ways to make other shapes or figures such as XXX or a hexagon. Other arrangements of lines can do the same sort of thing.  It's not particularly clever nor any kind of "proof" of a conspiracy.

 Undecided

Ebor
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 05:51:23 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2010, 05:48:28 PM »

Saint Iaint, I can guarantee that if the moderators will allow anyone to step up to refuting your 9/11 denial, they will certainly endorse me doing it, protestant or no protestant. Right now it's more important to get dinner ready, so your chastisement will have to wait until a later hour.
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« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2010, 09:50:20 PM »

Quote from: Ebor
"I know that you were making a claim about the Star of Bethlehem. Perhaps I was not clear in my question.  Are you saying that a particular celestial object *is visible today* and is the Star?  or are you saying that the planetarium shows show the star?  What do you say the Star was? I'm asking as some theorize that it was a conjunction of planets or a comet."

No I'm not saying it's visible in the skies today... I'm saying planetariums have shows of the particular conjunction that the Magi and all Judea witnessed in 2 BC.

Check it out: Evidence For The Historical Jesus Of Nazareth Pt II - The Star Of Bethlehem

Quote from: Keble
"Saint Iaint, I can guarantee that if the moderators will allow anyone to step up to refuting your 9/11 denial, they will certainly endorse me doing it, protestant or no protestant. Right now it's more important to get dinner ready, so your chastisement will have to wait until a later hour."

Fill your boots, buddy!

Why not just drop a link to the relevant thread so I know where you're coming from?

RE: "9/11 denial"... I'm not denying that 9/11 took place - Thousands of innocent Americans were murdered that day and more have died since from the asbestos dust.

I'm just saying that Arab Muslims had naught to do with it.
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« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2010, 09:59:05 PM »

"Lying idiocy"?

Not only are you insulting me... but you are also bearing false witness against me. I am NOT a liar!

Well, you might be.  We all know that the Jews did not stage the 9/11 tragedy.  It was the Khazars.  You told us so.  And they are of the Arabic race if I remember?
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« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2010, 11:53:56 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
"Well, you might be.  We all know that the Jews did not stage the 9/11 tragedy.  It was the Khazars.  You told us so.  And they are of the Arabic race if I remember?"

They call themselves 'Jews'... the majority of people believe they're 'Jews'... So sometimes I'll call them 'Jews' to avoid confusion or an argument.

And no - Khazars were/are not Arabic... but Slavo-Turkic, with no genetic connection to the Biblical Hebrews. The kingdom of Khazaria under king Bhulan converted to 'Judaism' (actually Pharisaism) en masse in the 9th century.

The Talmud is their 'bible' which calls for the death of Christians, the burning of the New Testament and other Christian literature, and suggests that if we are allowed to live - that we be subject to usury and slavery in subjection to them.

And please don't make light of 9/11... It is a very serious topic for me.

May God have mercy on the souls of those who were murdered in cold blood that day... and those who have died since.
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« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2010, 07:12:48 AM »

One can follow the references from the Wikipedia article on the Khazars and see that considerable genetic research has been done. On the whole Jewish men and other middle eastern men share a common genetic origin, but Ashkenazi men show some small genetic input from Eastern Europe that could be attributed, perhaps, to the Khazars. Sephardic men show no such input. The Cohanim, interestingly, do not show this pattern.

This I do not find terribly surprising. But I will also not be surprised if actual scientific evidence doesn't bend you from repeating the unfounded claims of others.

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« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2010, 07:38:20 AM »

....
I know that you were making a claim about the Star of Bethlehem. Perhaps I was not clear in my question.  Are you saying that a particular celestial object *is visible today* and is the Star?  or are you saying that the planetarium shows show the star?  What do you say the Star was? I'm asking as some theorize that it was a conjunction of planets or a comet.

Ebor
I think the conjunction hypothesis is most likely. That is, the planet Jupiter (which has connections with priesthood and sacred textual knowledge) did a triple conjunction with the star Regulus (which has connections with royalty, being one of the four primary stars of ancient Persia) in the last few years B.C.. Regulus is in the constellation Leo, the Lion (which is connected to Judah). And Jupiter also conjuncted Venus at some point during that triple conjunction process, too. (Venus is often associated with love, but it has wider meanings connected to war, as well.) So, the triple conjunction of Jupiter with Regulus, in Leo, along with Venus, probably had significant meaning to those who were knowledgeable about such subjects, as the astrologers/astronomers of Mesopotamia and Persia may have been.
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« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2010, 09:08:56 PM »

The reliance on the remote control theory is relatively new. The reason for that is perhaps that some of the other theories have gotten too untenable to be pushed any more except to the most ignorant and/or stupid.

Let's start with the claims made that the Pentagon wasn't hit by an airline, but by something else (typical claim is with a military weapon such as a cruise missile). OK, first of all, unlike the PA crash, there were dozens upon dozens of witnesses. The airplane came in, cut a large circle south of the pentagon, and hit the pentagon on the western side, facing Arlington Cemetery. There's no hotel anywhere near there, so there was no security tape to confiscate. The final approach took the plane directly over one of the major interchanges in the area; besides all the people in their cars, witnesses included at least one person standing the adjacent parking lot and the crew of a C-130H that was asked to follow the plane to see what it was doing. Everyone agrees that they saw an airliner; the one report to the contrary was cherry-picked from a longer account in which the person said it hit the pentagon like a cruise missile and in which he had already stated that he saw an airliner.

The various claims about the impossibility of using cell phones are also bogus. First of all, the planes flew pretty low, a few thousand feet up. That's well within the range in which the phones will work quite well. But more to the point, most of the calls were not made with cell phones; they used the air phones installed in the planes, which were designed to work in any sort of flight configuration.
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« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2010, 09:40:20 PM »

The Talmud is their 'bible' which calls for the death of Christians, the burning of the New Testament and other Christian literature, and suggests that if we are allowed to live - that we be subject to usury and slavery in subjection to them.

What does this matter? Should it affect your spiritual life if such things are in the Talmud? Remove the plank from your own eye before removing the speck in your brother's.

I also think that you saying that the Jews did the 9/11 attacks is preposterous since there is no proof. We know who did it and they took responsibility for it and that was Osama bin Laden (who is an Arab Muslim from Saudi Arabia). What are you going to say next? That Jews made up the Holocaust? Killed JFK? Black helicopters? Seriously, what is your point in doing this? To spread hatred because that is the only thing that is spread with such things. Christ said we should love our neighbor, not hate them and judge them.
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« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2010, 09:42:09 PM »

The remote control theory has three big flaws. First, in spite of what people claimed, the planes in question are not equipped as-is for this sort of thing. They are old-fashioned hydraulic-assisted cable-controlled planes, not fly-by-wire; the autopilot, out of the factory, can fly the plane but isn't capable of the kind of maneuvering which happened in the course of these flights, and a software upgrade wasn't going to fix that.

Second, if one supposes that extra equipment was installed or modifications made, the changes would be detected almost immediately by the swarms of maintenance people who crawl all over the plane after each flight. That also supposes that there was enough time to take the planes out of service to make the modifications in the first place.

Third, the fact is that remote control doesn't work very well. Accident rates for Predator drones, for instance, are estimated to have an accident rate a hundred times that of manned flight; of 135 drones, 85 had either been destroyed or serious damaged in accidents. Part of the problem is that there is a significant delay in response, on the order of a second or two. A perhaps more relevant example was found in the 1984 Controlled Impact Demonstration in which a remotely controlled 720 was guided into a crash in the desert; the pilot was unable to land the plane flat, and it skidded sideways into the structure it was supposed to hit head on.

For additional info, here we have an actual airplane technician talking in detail about the difficulties in the remote control theory.
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« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2010, 01:17:16 PM »

Since this all seems to be being sucked into the black hole of the politics sooper seekrit forum Wink I would only further report (based on an interview with one Orthodox Jew, for whatever that's worth) that the Jews really don't care about the whole "Ashkenazis are really just Khazars" theory. It's pretty plain that European Jews show significant intermarriage, but nobody cares.
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« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2010, 06:05:25 PM »

Seems someone thinks that talking about 'Jews' is "political"...

But 'Jew' is a religion!

The person our Protestant friend calls an "Orthodox Jew" is actually a Pharisee. Pharisees are anti-Christ. Just because he doesn't voice the Talmudic doctrines he learns... doesn't mean that they're not in his head. Of course he has to keep them a secret.

Anyhow, as long as I'm being censored - this is a one-sided debate that I'm bound to lose.
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« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2010, 06:43:08 PM »

But 'Jew' is a religion!

Many people who call themselves Jews are actually atheists or agnostics. Perhaps the majority of Jewish emigrants from the former USSR who left for Israel in the 1970 (most of them eneded up in the USA) were or are atheists or agnostics. They don't care about Judaism at all. But they would be extremely surprised if someone told them that they aren't Jews.
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« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2010, 06:54:30 PM »

I am wondering if there is some confusion or misunderstanding of terms.  If "Jew" is a follower of the religion of Judaism then was does an ethnic/genetic strain have to do with it?  Is Judaism the religion of Abraham, Moses, the prophets and the apostles as well as that of Our Lord in that he read from the Torah as is recorded in the Gospels?  

How does the ethnic/genetic group of some turkic-slavs called the "Khazars" define a religion? Or is the hereditary component to be considered to somehow "trump" a person's belief in the Most High?  What of people's from that area of the globe who became Christian?  What does their genetics or ethnicity matter then?  

What does the term "Pharisee" mean besides being a label applied to other human beings to somehow denigrate them, to make them "other" and "enemies"?  What is the difference between a "Jew" as a religious believer and a "pharisee" likewise?

How are you being "censored", S.I.?  You are free to ask to be allowed into the Political forum.  And the subject of 9-11 can be addressed without recourse to politics but with history and engineering and facts. 

Ebor

« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 06:58:33 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2010, 06:57:26 PM »

But 'Jew' is a religion!

Many people who call themselves Jews are actually atheists or agnostics. Perhaps the majority of Jewish emigrants from the former USSR who left for Israel in the 1970 (most of them eneded up in the USA) were or are atheists or agnostics. They don't care about Judaism at all. But they would be extremely surprised if someone told them that they aren't Jews.

It has seemed to me, Heorhij, that there have been people who want the word to mean a "race"/ethnicity and a religion so that it can be used either way in accusations of other people as it suits the situation.   Undecided Sad 
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« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2010, 07:42:10 PM »

Seems someone thinks that talking about 'Jews' is "political"...

But 'Jew' is a religion!

The person our Protestant friend calls an "Orthodox Jew" is actually a Pharisee. Pharisees are anti-Christ. Just because he doesn't voice the Talmudic doctrines he learns... doesn't mean that they're not in his head. Of course he has to keep them a secret.

They are hardly secret; one can read the Talmud readily enough, though (once again) I suspect that you haven't actually read any of the real thing, seeing as how all the evidence thus far is that you haven't read any original materials. Reading the Talmud alone, however, isn't sufficient for an understanding of Judaism. You have to understand how the rabbis read it, which is not something you're going to learn at Stormfront or other racial supremacist sites. Likewise, it is no great secret that Orthodox Judaism is historically descended from the Pharisaic party.

You more or less belie your purpose with all the irrelevant (and from what I can see untrue) going on about Khazars. What's the point about going on about ancestry if it's the doctrines of the Pharisees that are the problem?

Oh, and while I'm at it: your savior was buried by a couple of Pharisees. Think about it.
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« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2010, 08:33:08 PM »

Seems someone thinks that talking about 'Jews' is "political"...

But 'Jew' is a religion!

The person our Protestant friend calls an "Orthodox Jew" is actually a Pharisee. Pharisees are anti-Christ. Just because he doesn't voice the Talmudic doctrines he learns... doesn't mean that they're not in his head. Of course he has to keep them a secret.

Anyhow, as long as I'm being censored - this is a one-sided debate that I'm bound to lose.

Actually, Jesus was clearly within the Tradition of the Pharisees. His emphasis on loving your neighbor as the way to love God, teachings about the poor ..on and on, were all taught before his time within the line of Pharisitical interpretation.

One the biggest contributions they made was to unteather Judaism from strict temple worship and introduced the idea that you take your religion with you. Once the temple was destroyed and Jews were forceably dispersed, the Pharisees were best able to survive of all the various Jewish sects and tendencies because of this sort of mobility. That is why they were the main constents with fledgling Christian groups for dominance and is why they are singled out for disdain in Scripture. But make no mistake, Jesus taught what was basically the Parasitical approach to Judaism.
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« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2010, 08:42:03 PM »

But 'Jew' is a religion!

Many people who call themselves Jews are actually atheists or agnostics. Perhaps the majority of Jewish emigrants from the former USSR who left for Israel in the 1970 (most of them eneded up in the USA) were or are atheists or agnostics. They don't care about Judaism at all. But they would be extremely surprised if someone told them that they aren't Jews.

When the Nazis came and hauled away Jew's, do you think that if any of them had mentioned that they were "Agnostic", it would have made a difference?
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« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2010, 10:18:01 AM »

I've struggled with that question myself.  I think of it like a feedback between believing and doing.  Your brain needs to see evidence to believe, so you do a little thing and see that it works as God promised.  Then you believe a little more and do a little more.  I think that is what the book of James means to me.
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« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2010, 11:54:14 AM »

I know enough about history to know that Christianity is true.

While that may be part of your reason for believing Christianity's truth, it may not be the best argument.  Unfortunately, modern historical scholarship has contributed far more to doubts concerning Christianity than to proving it.
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« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2010, 12:29:23 PM »


Quote from: Jetavan
"I have to say, that 'IX XI' graphic is pretty whack."

I thought it was pretty clever. More importantly - it's true. And the gangsta-slang you're using really should read 'wack', you know. (Short for 'wacky'.)
"Whack" is an acceptable alternative spelling, dating back to 1951.

And interesting, since Hebrew (and hence Jews) don't use Roman numerals. Maybe the Vatican was in on it as well. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2010, 02:14:04 PM »

These guys don't look Jewish to me...

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