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Author Topic: Peter the Rock  (Read 30527 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2004, 01:00:08 PM »

What is Ela Vre?
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« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2004, 01:02:00 PM »

Ellenika!..
ask Vicki about  Ela Vre, and Ela re
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« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2004, 01:03:39 PM »

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peterfarrington:
Surely there is a difference between acknowledging someone as a saint and considering it disrespectful to criticise anything they had said, done or written?

That is true, but remarks like "Consider the source" (in reference to Pope St. Leo) imply that St. Leo is not trustworthy and are disrespectful.

If someone wants to write, "I think Pope Leo was in error because of A, B, C," where A, B, and C are actual points of contention and not merely assaults on Leo's character, then I have no problem with that.

Quote
peterfarrington: For all of our saints I mean?

Surely proper historical analysis must be allowed weight without being disrespectful. I mean generally of our own common saints and of our particular ones.

If you read 'The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined' for instance, by the Indian Orthodox theologian Fr V.C. Samuel, then we find criticism of Dioscorus without disrespect, likewise criticism of Leo of Rome without disrespect.

And the writings of Fr John Romanides are criticical of Leo of Rome also, I am quite sure that as a conservative and traditionalist Orthodox he did not mean his criticism to be disrepectful.

I think we should be careful not to speak as though people and events are beyond criticism, that is the way of cults. Yet we should speak carefully and not seek to cause offense, and listen carefully and not be easily offended.

True. It is possible to analyze history and the actions of individuals without being disrespectful.

I did not tell Stavro he could not write about Pope St. Leo. I don't have the authority to do that anyway, even if I wanted to.

I merely cautioned him that Pope St. Leo the Great is revered as a saint and a Father of the Church by Orthodox and Roman Catholics alike.

I read what he said and saw it verging on disrespect. That is why I wrote what I wrote.

It is also well to remember that we should not turn every thread and every forum here into a running criticism of Chalcedon and of Chalcedonian saints.

That is, as I understand it, why we have a Non-Chalcedonian Forum.
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« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2004, 01:10:15 PM »

SDCheung,

Would it ever be possible for the Orthodox and Catholic ever to agree upon the correct understanding of the role of the Bishop of Rome?  Would it ever be correct in your mind for these Churches to call jointly an ecumenical council?  Would you really ever accept any definition of the role of the Bishop of Rome that Catholics agreed with even if all of Orthodoxy agreed with it?  

Why waste anymore time with peripheral questions?  Are you as defensive or as insecure in real life as you appear to be here?

Dan L
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« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2004, 03:07:19 PM »

SDCheung,

Would it ever be possible for the Orthodox and Catholic ever to agree upon the correct understanding of the role of the Bishop of Rome?  Would it ever be correct in your mind for these Churches to call jointly an ecumenical council?  Would you really ever accept any definition of the role of the Bishop of Rome that Catholics agreed with even if all of Orthodoxy agreed with it?  

Why waste anymore time with peripheral questions?  Are you as defensive or as insecure in real life as you appear to be here?

Dan L

What? Defensive and Insecure? I don't think so.
I would go for the Jugular if I didn't have a screen in front of me.

I'll accept Catholicism when all her herresies have been trashed, including the Papal Supremacy stuff.
in other words, when Rome becomes Orthodox.
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« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2004, 03:26:11 PM »

sdcheung,

Such a reasonable response as yours surely inspires confidence. Roll Eyes Tongue

Dan L
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« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2004, 03:28:07 PM »

whatever/
Your also the one making ad hominem attacks when someone reject your papal Imperialism claims.
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« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2004, 03:51:51 PM »

That is true, but remarks like "Consider the source" (in reference to Pope St. Leo) imply that St. Leo is not trustworthy and are disrespectful.

You will probably think I am biased, but this is not how I read it, nor do I think this is the only reading.  Every source has his/her own bias.  I think we dealt with this in passing in another thread regarding history and historians; every historian writes from his own perspective, and I don't know if there is such a thing as "objective history".  "Consider the source" may just as well been read as "Leo of Rome held views that do not make him the best source for X", and I don't think that would be disrespectful.  

Quote
It is also well to remember that we should not turn every thread and every forum here into a running criticism of Chalcedon and of Chalcedonian saints.

That is, as I understand it, why we have a Non-Chalcedonian Forum.

The "Non-Chalcedonian" section is for issues pertaining to the Oriental Orthodox Churches.  As I've always interpreted that, it does not mean that the OO have their little plot, while everyone else roams free.  OO, like anyone else, are welcome to post their views in all sections.  That's what discussion is about.  The NC section is there for discussing the major issues, but also more specific ones (e.g., "Why do Armenians celebrate Christmas and Theophany together on one day?").

Not every thread has to be turned into a running criticism of Chalcedon and of Chalcedonian saints, you are right.  It goes both ways, and for every individual poster.
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« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2004, 03:51:57 PM »

Make sure this doesn't turn aggressive or I'll close it.

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« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2004, 05:20:41 PM »

Thanks Mor Ephrem, that's how I read it and that's how I feel about discussion of various issues - but I didn't feel able to say it.

PT
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« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2004, 05:41:38 PM »

HOw Conveeeeeeenient...
He left the Kontakion out.  (duh)

Kontakion in tone 2
Christ the Rock, who greatly glorified the first among Apostles,
Calling him Peter, <<<<<<the rock of faith>>>>>>.....,
Calls us now to honor the miracles wrought through Peter's chains,
That He may grant us forgiveness of sins.
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« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2004, 06:09:34 PM »

whatever/
Your also the one making ad hominem attacks when someone reject your papal Imperialism claims.

The "ad hominem" charge is is the first resor of cowards.  Besides I made no imperialistic claims for the pope.
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« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2004, 06:12:17 PM »

course you did.
you said why aren't we unified yet

because we aren't.
sounds very Imperialistic to me.
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« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2004, 06:12:36 PM »

Sheeesh.....can't we discuss things without getting all huffy.

I have problems with Papal Supremacy but I wish it could be discussed with some degree of detachment.
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« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2004, 06:30:08 PM »

the Flu is getting to me.
short temper, etc.
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« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2004, 06:34:45 PM »

Lord have mercy on you and heal you.

Go visit the dilbert site or something and have a laugh instead.
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« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2004, 08:09:06 PM »

I think we'd all do good to remember St. Peter's advice:

"...always be ready to give a defence to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. (1 Peter 3:15)
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« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2004, 08:50:11 PM »

We know that Patriarch Bartholomew is at least willing to have talks with the Pope.  Whether they lead anywhere or not I have no idea.  Since it was the patriarchs of these two sees who started this mess it seems to me that it is incumbant that these two patriarchs take the lead in straightening out the mess.  

I've read all of the "reasons" why what must be done can't possibly be done because of all of the supposed evils of both sides.  I've read ad nauseum why Orthodoxy is not a worthy partner because they are soft on divorce and are schismatics.  I've read ad nauseum why Catholocism is not a worthy partner because the Pope is too bossy and the filioque is an illigitimate addition to the Creed.  I've read ad nauseum all of the reasons why the Eastern Catholics are evil and treacherous.

I say bunk on the whole business.  I think those who perpetuate excuses for not at least sitting down together are unworthy of the title "followers of Christ".  For all those who continue to whine about this I say, "curses on both your houses."  You are all childish and churlish.  

I know that someone is bound to say of my position, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."  My answer, "I'n not looking for flies.  I'm looking for Christians."

Now that I've expressed my frustration and for those who are still reading let me ask a question:  Outside of the Patriarchs of Rome and Constantinople, the only two that really matter anyway,  is there any serious heart for recommunion among the Orthodox?  Besides trying to influence the Protestants through the WCC are there groups and efforts afoot to work toward union based upon truth among Orthodox groups?  

Remember, I really don't care to discuss the real and supposed differences that have arisen outside of the central issues of the "filioque" and the nature of the authority of the Bishop of Rome.  The more I read them the more they seem like excuses for petty bickering to me.  I suspect most of the pettiness comes from Protestant converts who are not fully Orthodox, but I could be wrong.

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« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2004, 08:52:59 PM »

eh..
If The Patriarchate at Konstantinoupoli sells out.
There is always Moscow, Jerusalem and Alexandria, and Antioch.. at least they are willing to defend Orthodoxy
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« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2004, 08:57:21 PM »

sdcheung,

Are you a Protestant?  Perhaps a hardshell Baptist?

Dan L

For others on the board, the Baptist interloper likes to divert every discussion.  Is it possible to get an anwer from anyone else?  I think my questions are lucid and serious.  Does anyone have any serious answers?

Dan Luaffer
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« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2004, 09:00:33 PM »

hahahahaha...
OXIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Orthodox to the Core.
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« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2004, 09:02:52 PM »

why would you be calling me baptist?
I'm insulted.
there can be nonbaptist nonprotestant antipapalists to ya know?
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« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2004, 09:22:31 PM »

Prove it.  All you have to do is give some answer to the questions asked, rather than some rhetorical and predictable babble.

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« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2004, 09:44:03 PM »

I did.
why are you trolling with your questions?
since you knew it would be the same "babble"?
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« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2004, 10:04:58 PM »

Quote
Outside of the Patriarchs of Rome and Constantinople, the only two that really matter anyway,  is there any serious heart for recommunion among the Orthodox?


There's plenty of serious heart for re-establishing full communion on the Orthodox side. The angry outbursts of some indicates a strong reluctance to compromise the Orthodox faith, which is proper and commendable but ideally would be alot healthier for us all if the angry outbursts weren't part of the package.

Here are the problems:

On the Orthodox side - a lack of charity and emotional attachment to anything anti-papal among some members. A great deal of energy is being wasted on bashing the papacy which would be better spent on proposing SOLUTIONS to the problem. I ask that my Orthodox brethren be passionate about defending Orthodoxy with the spirit of Christ, not Howard Dean.

On the Roman Catholic side - the Vatican. Folks, if the Vatican can't own up to the sex crimes of her members around the world and resorts to secrecy, don't expect it to own up to its doctrinal and historical shortcomings any time soon. There can't be any progress unless we approach the problems with the utmost humility and fear of God. The solution to this is a miracle from God.

Quote
are there groups and efforts afoot to work toward union based upon truth among Orthodox groups?
 

This is giving me ideas.



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« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2004, 10:11:27 PM »

Byzantino,

Thank you.  You have a reasoned approach.  

I'm still wondering what those actions are.  Does anyone know?

Dan L
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« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2004, 10:47:50 PM »

Byzantino

[On the Roman Catholic side - the Vatican. Folks, if the Vatican can't own up to the sex crimes of her members around the world and resorts to secrecy, don't expect it]

"around the world"??  Are you referring to the pedophilia that has come to light which here in the USA less than  1% of the clergy were involved in?  "Around the world"? Where else pray tell?  

I've read quite a lot of threads here re the Papacy.  It's usually not a discussion but rather a battle with each side bashing the other over the head with quotes from Scripture or the Fathers.  Nobody's mind ever gets changed in the slightest degree.  Why keep on about the role of the pope?  The RC's want the EO to accept the current concept of the papacy and point to the development of this doctrine while the EO call it a heresy and demand Rome give up what they see as "imperialist pretensions".  What purpose does it all serve except to show to those unchurched Christians or unbelievers who come to this website that we all can't agree on anything and we have no sense of humor, plenty of venom and no charity.

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« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2004, 10:59:22 PM »

Quote
"around the world"??  Are you referring to the pedophilia that has come to light which here in the USA less than  1% of the clergy were involved in?  "Around the world"? Where else pray tell?  


Yes, around the world. The sex abuse scandal hasn't been confined to the U.S. alone. There were several major ones here over the past 5 years. Other countries in Europe have also had their share. Also the 1% figure is disputed by some RC's. Robert Sungenis is one internet apologist who believes it's higher than that. Argue about the figure if you like, you can't argue the cover-up and subterfuges.

Quote
Why keep on about the role of the pope?
 

Because that's the central and most fundamental issue keeping us from enjoying full communion.  

Quote
The RC's want the EO to accept the current concept of the papacy and point to the development of this doctrine while the EO call it a heresy and demand Rome give up what they see as "imperialist pretensions".  


And in between there's a solution. Have faith.

Quote
What purpose does it all serve except to show to those unchurched Christians or unbelievers who come to this website that we all can't agree on anything and we have no sense of humor, plenty of venom and no charity.

Exactly. That's why i quoted St. Peter.
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« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2004, 11:10:43 PM »

Byzantino

[Yes, around the world. The sex abuse scandal hasn't been confined to the U.S. alone. There were several major ones here over the past 5 years. Other countries in Europe have also had their share. Also the 1% figure is disputed by some RC's. Robert Sungenis is one internet apologist who believes it's higher than that. Argue about the figure if you like, you can't argue the cover-up and subterfuges.]

You can't just say, "Yes around the world" then say other countries in Europe had their share.  Come on!  Name some countries and the kind of cases that have happened.  I don't want to argue about figures or the scandal I just want to make sure that people who read these posts don't go away thinking "Oh my God those RC's are up to no good all around the world".  Rather subtle anti-Catholicism.

[And in between there's a solution. Have faith.]

I have faith in the Holy Trinity.  I tend not to place that much faith in my fellow men as they tend to disappoint.

[Because that's the central and most fundamental issue keeping us from enjoying full communion.]

This in itself is a debatable point.  I think a more central point is the Filioque.

Carpo-Rusyn





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« Reply #119 on: January 23, 2004, 11:13:53 PM »

[Because that's the central and most fundamental issue keeping us from enjoying full communion.]

This in itself is a debatable point.  I think a more central point is the Filioque.

Carpo-Rusyn

I don't think so Carpo. I think the Filioque is fairly easily dealt with if you approach it from an historical perspective (i.e, the reason it was done). For me, Papal supremecy is THE major point.
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« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2004, 11:18:38 PM »

[I don't think so Carpo.]

Yes that's why I said it was debatable.  The office of the pope deals with the Church whereas the Filioque deals with who God is and relations within the Trinity through whom we are saved.  I agree both are important but the Filioque much more so.

CR
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« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2004, 11:22:32 PM »

I agree both are important but the Filioque much more so.

But why? If we agree that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father" then what is the big deal? Don't all things come from the Father? My understanding is that it was changed to "and the Son" specifically to refute a heresy.
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« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2004, 11:24:22 PM »

Other countries include Australia, England, Ireland, France, Holland, Poland, Austria, and there were cases in Africa (not sure which countries.) Some articles where this is mentioned are here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1943756.stm

http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/us020410.html

http://www.ezresult.com/article/Catholic_priests'_sex_abuse_scandal

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« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2004, 11:26:14 PM »

Byz

Thanks for the names of the countries but it still fails the mark for being "world-wide" which would mean it's happening in every country the world over.

CR
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« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2004, 11:27:30 PM »

[But why? If we agree that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father" then what is the big deal? Don't all things come from the Father? My understanding is that it was changed to "and the Son" specifically to refute a heresy.]

Hey Tom it's not my problem it's on the EO side.  

CR
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« Reply #125 on: January 23, 2004, 11:29:34 PM »

Hey Tom it's not my problem it's on the EO side.  
CR

Would you have a problem with it being removed since it was added for a reason that is no longer needed?
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« Reply #126 on: January 24, 2004, 01:04:38 AM »

I wrote this before the sex scandal discussion came up.  Let me add this:  Sex outside of marriage with anyone is a horrible sin.  It is made worse when it is committed by clergy.  It's even worse when flaming homosexuals are allowed to be priests.  It's even worse when crimes are done against children.  Given all of that is there anyone so naive as to believe that this problem is any worse among Catholics than it is among the Orthodox or among Protestants?   If so, you are too easily fooled.  I will pray for you.

Now to the point of this post.

Now I think I'm beginning to understand what is before us. Let me post what I've learned from you and other Orthodox posters thus far and you correct me if I'm mistaken in any way.

1. Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism recognize that Peter is the Rock. Technically there is no point of opposition over this matter.

2. The original anathemas of 1054 were made without consultation with other Patriarchs or autocephalic Churches. No other Orthodox Church agreed to them in the first place so technically none of the Church were separated from Rome ever.

3. Because the original anathemas were made by the two Patriarch's their successor were free to lift them and no further schism would exist between East and West.

4. The issue of the "filioque" is now a non-issue since Pope John Paul II agrees with the Orthodox that it is never necessary to be used.

5. Since there is no schism existing today there is no need for a consensus of Patriarchs to heal a schism that does not exist. Those who will not recognize communion between the East and the West have really separated themselves from both Orthodoxy and from Catholicism. Those who remain in that state of self imposed exhile are technically "separated bretheren".

Three years ago I did not have a real grasp of this issue. The Orthodox (though I'm not sure that is the proper term any more) have really cleared this up for me.

One ramification of this is that those who keep cursing the "uniates" are to be pitied. Their hatred must be covering their own guilt. I would suggest that those who refuse to work toward communion are really anathema, not so much because anyone external to them has declared them to be so, but because they have voluntarily chosen to excommunicate themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ. Their ranting cannot be taken seriously. I intend to post this on the Orthodox (so called) board ASAP. This should be interesting.

One more ramification of this mess is that I now know exactly how I am going to handle this issue in my University Church history class.

Again, for all the "Orthodox" posters here I encourage you to correct me at any point...if you can.

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« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2004, 01:19:07 AM »

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5. Since there is no schism existing today there is no need for a consensus of Patriarchs to heal a schism that does not exist. Those who will not recognize communion between the East and the West have really separated themselves from both Orthodoxy and from Catholicism. Those who remain in that state of self imposed exhile are technically "separated bretheren".



Sorry Dan, this is wishful thinking. We can't delude ourselves into thinking that a schism doesn't exist. The lifting of the anathemas did not heal the schism. It laid down the foundations necessary to heal the schism by creating fraternal atmosphere of dialogue and mutual understanding. Alot of work still needs to be done. Reality is that the RCC and Orthodoxy after 1000 yrs are now doctrinally different, and so long as that situation remains a full reunion is precluded. Those who don't recognize the schism have separated themselves from reality. Non-contradiction requires one of them to be right and the other wrong. It can't be both. Imperfect communion we have. Full communion we don't.


Quote
One ramification of this is that those who keep cursing the "uniates" are to be pitied. Their hatred must be covering their own guilt. I would suggest that those who refuse to work toward communion are really anathema, not so much because anyone external to them has declared them to be so, but because they have voluntarily chosen to excommunicate themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ. Their ranting cannot be taken seriously.


Judgementalism like this won't help in our efforts towards full communion either. I think adhering to the belief that we're already one church would make one fall into another category altogether; separated from both Rome and Orthodoxy.

Quote
I intend to post this on the Orthodox (so called) board ASAP. This should be interesting.

Again, for all the "Orthodox" posters here I encourage you to correct me at any point...if you can.

"So-called" Orthodox? Why the placing of "Orthodox" in inverted commas? What are you implying by that?
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« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2004, 01:34:45 AM »

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4. The issue of the "filioque" is now a non-issue since Pope John Paul II agrees with the Orthodox that it is never necessary to be used.
Did his Holiness Pope John Paul II really say that ? The "Filioque" is a non-issue??
I would be very grateful if you could provide a link to that, if you have time, of course.
Thank you.
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« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2004, 01:37:54 AM »

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3. Because the original anathemas were made by the two Patriarch's their successor were free to lift them and no further schism would exist between East and West.
Why did the schism happen in the first place then ? Was it a personal quarrel that does not involve their successors , or was it a theological, doctrinal or abuse of position issues which is binding for their respective churches ?
Anathemas must have sound reasons. Successors, unless they realize a misunderstanding on the behalf of the Pope issuing the anathemas or if the other church returns to the true faith or changes its ways, cannot just lift the anathemas.

Just a thought.
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« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2004, 01:38:24 AM »

byzantino,

You have an irenic spirit which is much stronger than mine.  I've become convinced that the continued separation has much more to do with ego than with doctrine.  Moreover, as I look at the nuances that separate and are made to appear to have more substance than they really do I'm convinced that ego has more to do with this than does doctrine.  I used to think that Protestants were the only ones guilty of making ego more important than doctrine.  I used to think that separated Orthodoxy was immune from this.  I even got much grief for this stand at a Catholic university.  I was accused of being Orthodox and not Catholic at all.  No longer will I suffer such slings and arrows.  The emperor's lack of clothing has been exposed.  

If those who believe as I are a separate Church than the RC's or EO's then so be it.  I don't believe that it's true but I do believe that the reason the various autocephalic groups won't sit down and talk is because of turf jealousy, not doctrinal integrity.  

Obviously, the two groups have developed separately.  Obviously there is much that needs to be discussed.  Obviously some sacred cows will have to be rethought.
But just as obviously our Lord established one Church and it is not obvious to me that either one of the so called "True Faiths" are living up to the title.

I believe true Orthodoxy is expressed in what Patriarch Bartholomew has done.  It is not expressed in what a couple of the posters here have stated.  

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« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2004, 01:39:05 AM »

Dan,

Your point #4 is not accurate in saying the filioque is a non-issue.  Rome still professes the filioque which the Orthodox generally believe to be a heresy.

Two years ago on Theophany I was received into Orthodoxy from being with the Pittsburgh Metroplia for a few years.  We had a good bi-ritual RC priest, but mostly just a bunch of folks fleeing the Novus Ordo.  The only couple my age moved out of state and I didn't want to be the only sub-40 year old in the 65+ club.  I had sympathies for Orthodoxy before this, but my ties to my friends kept me in the Ruthenian parish.  When they left, I had no valid reason to stay since I did not believe in Vatican I, the filioque, etc.

My friends were recently received into a Serbian Orthodox parish where they live now.  They got a new priest, RC bi-ritual, who added the filioque to the creed and wasn't allowing the babies to commune anymore.  They tried being Orthodox in communion with Rome, but after the new priest, they were just in communion with Rome.  They decided that Orthodoxy was more important than "communion with Rome".

One can be Orthodox, or one can be in communion with Rome, but not both.  It's pretty clear from history that Rome diverged from the common faith when she added the filioque and the papacy became a temporal power.  That's why Rome is in schism with the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2004, 01:46:25 AM »

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I've become convinced that the continued separation has much more to do with ego than with doctrine
I agree here, but pride on whose part remains a question.
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« Reply #133 on: January 24, 2004, 02:06:54 AM »

I don't follow him.
He's an Ecumenist wretch!

Please watch your tone.  You can hold a negative opinion of Pat. Bartholemew while still being polite and civil, not resorting to name-calling.

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« Reply #134 on: January 24, 2004, 02:21:53 AM »

God bless u Dan Smiley We CAN heal the schism because the desire to do so is there. Each by doing his part, our good efforts will resonate in decades to come if we persevere. More needs to be done to break down the barriers of ignorance on both sides.

It is ego, I agree with you there; the greater the ego the more hardened we remain. Speaking from an Orthodox position, naturally i'll assign a greater load to Rome than Orthodoxy in respect to overcoming that hardeness of heart in doctrinal matters. I believe so because the issues were settled at the 8th Ecumenical Council of 879-880 (not the 869 council), and one party reneged two centuries later. It can be painful having to eat a hefty dose of humble pie (I know from experience, i converted from RC to Orthodoxy recently) so yes, the doctrinal wall will only be broken down when the wall of pride falls first.
Like i said before, both parties need to overcome resentments, follies and uncharitable actions and get down to business.

 
Quote
Obviously, the two groups have developed separately.  Obviously there is much that needs to be discussed.  Obviously some sacred cows will have to be rethought.

Precisely, and i think we need to get our heads down to resolving the issue of the papacy before anything else; that's the stumbling block. Not who's the Rock, but how the Petrine ministry should be exercised.

Quote
But just as obviously our Lord established one Church and it is not obvious to me that either one of the so called "True Faiths" are living up to the title.

Maybe, but it doesn't change the reality of the status of our churches - one has remained faithful to the Orthodox Faith, the other hasn't.

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