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Author Topic: Peter the Rock  (Read 30634 times) Average Rating: 0
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Byzantino
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« Reply #225 on: January 27, 2004, 12:23:09 AM »

btw i'm assuming you meant to say Peter's successors and not predecessors.
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« Reply #226 on: January 27, 2004, 04:31:29 AM »

In all seriousness (and yes, I get the humor Smiley ) would we really need to agree on a number? Couldn't it be the eighth council for the RCC, the fourth for Non-Chalcedonians, and the 10th? for Eastern Orthodox?

I agree that the number is not relevant.

What would be useful would be for it to gather together the teachings of all the councils which would then be presented for acceptance as the doctrinal content of the earlier councils.

PT
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« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2004, 07:07:45 AM »

   The problem seems to be, Jesus doesn't mention the Keys in St. Matthew 18, only in chapter 16. Unless, of course, it was already "understood".

   The quote from Origen doesn't really say anything. It's only asking a question (it seems).
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« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2004, 07:40:19 AM »

Jesus does mention the keys in Matt 18:18: the power of binding and loosing is precisely that.

'I mean, to show you that Peter stood for the whole Church, call to mind that place in the Gospel, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her; to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven"(Matt 16:18). One man receives them; you see, he explained himself what the keys of the kingdom mean: "What you all bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matt 18:18). If it was said to Peter alone, Peter alone did this; he passed away, and went away; so who binds, who looses? I make bold to say, we too have these keys'  (St. Augustine, Sermon 229).

'It was in the person of the whole Church, which he [Peter] alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, "To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 16:18). After all, it isn't just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter's acknowledged preeminence, that he stood for the Church's universality and unity, when hewas told, "To you I am entrusting," what has in fact been entrusted to all' (St. Augustine, Sermon 295).

Of the Apostle John, St. John Chrysostom says:

"For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master's bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, 1,1).

Re: Origen.

Origen, like St. Augustine, uses the person of Peter to symbolize the other Apostles to make his point, which he states in question form. If the gates of hell will not prevail against Peter, they won't prevail against the others.
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« Reply #229 on: January 27, 2004, 06:13:00 PM »

Demetri

An excommunication for the sack of Zara, that's right!  So since they were excommunicate and cut off from the RCC then they were not technically RC.  So the sack of New Rome was done by a bunch of former RCs.  Isn't canon law great!

I agree about the Venetians being similar to the Ferengi!

The Venetians and the crusaders were working in collaboration with the EOs who supported a rival claimant to the throne.  Shouldn't someone be denouncing this 5th column?

[I agree! A great gesture might be to return (to Mt Athos, away from the Turks) all the booty now at the Vatican. Actions would speak louder than...]

You can of course show us proof of ownership right?  How do we know it belongs to you?  The Byzantines could've stolen it themselves?

CR
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« Reply #230 on: January 27, 2004, 07:11:45 PM »

How protestant and er Roman Catholic to think like that.
People in the East have lonnnnnnng memories. And it's hard to set aside enmity for ppl who did you harm.




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So, being from the Balkans or the Middle East excuses one from being Orthodox?  If "long memories" prevents one from forgiving their neighbor or enemy (irregardless of apologies or reparations), then one indeed has one's acsesis ahead.  "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors..."  It may not be easy, but there is absolutely no other way.  Without forgiveness from the heart, and without love, there is no salvation--no excuses--no rationalizations--period.

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« Reply #231 on: January 27, 2004, 07:20:14 PM »

Shocked

So, being from the Balkans or the Middle East excuses one from being Orthodox?  If "long memories" prevents one from forgiving their neighbor or enemy (irregardless of apologies or reparations), then one indeed has one's acsesis ahead.  "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors..."  It may not be easy, but there is absolutely no other way.  Without forgiveness from the heart, and without love, there is no salvation--no excuses--no rationalizations--period.




Not if you have the side-boys (Albanians) of the Turks on your back ready to pounce on your land and take it from you.
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« Reply #232 on: January 27, 2004, 07:37:23 PM »

Demetri

An excommunication for the sack of Zara, that's right!  So since they were excommunicate and cut off from the RCC then they were not technically RC.  So the sack of New Rome was done by a bunch of former RCs.  Isn't canon law great!

No that is not quite right! Excommunication does not turn one into a non-RC.  Excommunication is a disciplinary act that is administered to bring an erring Catholic back into right-belief/behavior.  And no, I'm not an expert on RC canon law.  To become a non-RC or former-RC or . . . you must make some specific public act or behavior to that renounces your faith.  One example would be to renounce a dogma of the Faith.

This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia may be dated but I believe that it still presents the essential RC position on excommunication.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Those who sacked Constantinople were RC, excommunicated or otherwise.

And yes, Canon Law is great!  It is designed among other things to protect laymen like me from the occasional depredations of clerics, priests from the occasional depredations of their Ordinaries, etc.  Yes, Canon Law can be abused and has been abused just as the Secular or Civil Law has been abused . . . e.g., denying unborn human beings their very human right to life.
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« Reply #233 on: January 27, 2004, 08:09:36 PM »

Better to lose your country to the Albanians and the Turks than to lose your soul!
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« Reply #234 on: January 27, 2004, 09:08:24 PM »

From the New Advent site:

The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced; he can, however, be considered as an exile from Christian society and as non-existent, for a time at least, in the sight of ecclesiastical authority.

So they were exiled RCs.

CR
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« Reply #235 on: January 27, 2004, 09:29:43 PM »

Better to lose your country to the Albanians and the Turks than to lose your soul!


   That's very true. Even Christ Jesus, IIRC, held no hate for His persecutors at the hour of His holy death. If He can withold hate, then so we should try.

   But at the same time, I cannot blame Serbs (or other Orthodox) for having resentment against Albanians and many Muslim groups. And I cannot blame Croats or Muslims for hating the Serbs, no thanks to Milosevic (though I don't believe he ever had majority support).

   There have been fairly recent attacks by Kosovar extremists against Serbian civilians (killing children), and then of course there has been the possibly-unknown sanctioned persecution of Serbs by Muslims in Kosovo and Albania for the past decade (the Kosovo Liberation [sic] Army is now a recognized 'protection force' by the UN and KFOR).

   And why do these problems largely exist? The heathan jihadists of late and present (thanks to the Turks).

  Go to this site, it should shed some light: http://kosovo.com.

  But yes, enmity should be staved off. Love is surely the way, but it's hard to show love when being butchered by your enemies.

  Christe eleison.
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« Reply #236 on: January 27, 2004, 09:41:17 PM »

  Sorry for helping take this specific section of track with my post.

  I agree with everything Jbc wrote (to legitimize this post).
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« Reply #237 on: January 27, 2004, 09:59:20 PM »

 
   (the Kosovo Liberation [sic] Army is now a recognized 'protection force' by the UN and KFOR).


What is so ironic about your statement is that before the last NATO war against Serbia, the U. S. State Dept. put the KLA on its list of terrorist organizations largely because they funded their activities by drug running!

Although in a moral sense I could see the Clinton administration (with it's morally slick Head of State) protecting the Kosovars who were being ejected from their land, the end result of this "victory" against the Serbs was that Kosovars began to burn down Orthodox churches and monasteries and killing monks and nuns among others in the historically Serbian area of Kosovo.  I may be RC, a throwback one at that, but I have a particular fondness (I'm not sure this is the correct word but the best I can do just about now) for the Byzantine rite liturgy, iconography, spirituality, and architecture.  Seeing this in the news really pissed me off!  U.S troops will also now be in the Balkans "forever" it would seem!  

Thanks for nothing Clinton . . . and Wesley Clark!

Jim C.
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« Reply #238 on: January 27, 2004, 10:11:34 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=2817

If anyone wants to continue the Balkan discussion...It's sort of odd to discuss it on a forum about St. Peter the Rock.. :-)
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« Reply #239 on: January 28, 2004, 12:08:20 AM »

byzantino,

Perhaps Dollinger should have read Cardinal Newman more carefully.

http://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html

In any  event, I'm glad to note that there seems to be much enthusiasm for working toward re communion.

Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #240 on: January 28, 2004, 12:14:00 AM »

Demetri

An excommunication for the sack of Zara, that's right!  So since they were excommunicate and cut off from the RCC then they were not technically RC.  So the sack of New Rome was done by a bunch of former RCs.  Isn't canon law great!

You're 'spinning' as a James Carvelle ballerina toy, c-r. This is silly and well addressed in a post below. Now you are an expert on Canon Law...

Pope Innocent III in point of fact DID forgive the actual Frankish crusaders before they even got to Constantinople- those who actually attacked Zara (Zadr) under contract to the Venetian merchants. He only left in place the excommunications against the Venetians traders. (The History of the Byzantine Empire- A.A. Vasiliev, Vol.II, pages 456-482). As to punishing anyone for the sacking of the City, he did nothing but protest that they did not go take Alexandria first and then Jerusalem as planned.
{ORTHODOXC has already given a good paragraph in response to my first post to your call for "sources" which you can insert here}

Quote
The Venetians and the crusaders were working in collaboration with the EOs who supported a rival claimant to the throne.  Shouldn't someone be denouncing this 5th column?

The EOs Huh??
You're really reaching here. There was NO vast "EO" conspiracy. The conspiring son of the deposed emperor (and his father) were closely and greedily related to western monarchs. Hardly a 'fifth column'. They both died in prison under the benelovent treatment of the new Latin goverment.  Perhaps you need to do your own homework.

Quote
[I agree! A great gesture might be to return (to Mt Athos, away from the Turks) all the booty now at the Vatican. Actions would speak louder than...]

You can of course show us proof of ownership right?  How do we know it belongs to you?  

How 'clinton-esque' of you! In point of fact the booty looted was divided among the crusaders who placed it all through France, mostly in churches, the Republic of St. Mark (Vence) and the Latin abbots and clerics who participated in the pillaging. (Yes, even after 1054, there were still Latin bishops, churches, priests, and RCs in Constantinople.) It's hard to tell how much eventually ended up in the Vatican, especially the share of the Latin ecclesiastics.

Quote

The Byzantines could've stolen it themselves?

Pshaw!
I'll no longer have dialogue with you on this forum. You are not seriously pursuing anything here but argument. This exercise has yielded some rather strong anti-ecumenism reactions from me. Heretofore, I was of an mind to forget 1204, but thanks to your prodding me to read the history I will most likely give an unChristian reponse the next time an RC tells me to 'get over it'.

Demetri
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« Reply #241 on: January 28, 2004, 12:21:47 AM »

Quote
Perhaps Dollinger should have read Cardinal Newman more carefully.

I don't understand  Huh

The quote from Cardinal Newman is well documented besides being splashed all over the newspapers at the time. Is that what you're referring to?
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« Reply #242 on: January 28, 2004, 12:25:34 AM »

didn't i tell you danny.
that reunion will only be possible when the vatican becomes orthodox.
that means a Bishop will have to come to the west and take the throne of peter.
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« Reply #243 on: January 28, 2004, 12:32:20 AM »

Pshaw!
I'll no longer have dialogue with you on this forum. You are not seriously pursuing anything here but argument. This exercise has yielded some rather strong anti-ecumenism reactions from me. Heretofore, I was of an mind to forget 1204, but thanks to your prodding me to read the history I will most likely give an unChristian reponse the next time an RC tells me to 'get over it'.

Demetri


Thats the spirit.
Ferget Ecumenism..it's hopeless. better to be seperate. or to win Peters throne and turn it Orthodox.
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« Reply #244 on: January 28, 2004, 01:58:34 AM »

[Pope Innocent III in point of fact DID forgive the actual Frankish crusaders before they even got to Constantinople- those who actually attacked Zara (Zadr) under contract to the Venetian merchants. He only left in place the excommunications against the Venetians traders. (The History of the Byzantine Empire- A.A. Vasiliev, Vol.II, pages 456-482). As to punishing anyone for the sacking of the City, he did nothing but protest that they did not go take Alexandria first and then Jerusalem as planned.]

Exactly!  If the crusaders were excommunicated prior to the sack of Constantinople as Carpo-Ruysn claims, then perhaps he can answer the following three questions for me -

1)  Why did they still have Roman Catholic priests still with them who not only served Mass for them but gave them Absolution and Communion just prior to the beginning of the carnage?

2)  Why did the Vatican and the Pope continue to accept bounty that it knew was stolen and looted for as period OF SIXTY YEARS?

3)  Why did the Pope take advantage of an illegal act of some of his so called excommunicated subjects by setting up a Latin Patriarchate?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

======

Excerpt From 'The Sack Of Constantinople by Nicholas Cooke -


AFTER RECEIVING ABSOLUTION, the Crusaders attacked. Constantinople fell after three days of the final, furious attack by land and by sea. Once inside the walls, the Crusaders began an orgy of carnage, brutality and vandalism not seen in Europe since the barbarians invaded seven centuries earlier. No one was spared: not bishop, priest, nun, man, woman or child. Few women escaped being violated, whether at home, in the street, or in the convent. Fires were started throughout the city. The butchery ended only when the Crusaders were so tired that they no longer could lift their swords. Then began looting and profanation on a scale unparalleled in history. A mob rushed into Santa Sophia. With the Image of the Pantacrator looking down upon them from the great dome, they broke up the altar for its gold content, smashed the icons, threw the Holy Gifts to the floor, seized the church vessels for their Jewels, and tore mosaics and tapestries from the walls. Horses and mules were brought into the church the better to carry off the sacred vessels, gold, silver, and whatever else they could gather. Drunken soldiers drank from chalices and ate from patens while riding asses draped with priestly vestments. A mocking prostitute was placed on the Patriarch's chair to dance and sing obscene songs. This pattern of pilferage and desecration was repeated in churches, monasteries and palaces throughout the city. The tombs of the emperors were rifled, and all of the classical statues and monuments which had survived from ancient Greece and imperial Rome were destroyed. One writer wrote that never in history had so much beauty, so much superb craftsmanship been so wantonly destroyed in so short a space of time. What was not carried off was burned, smashed, melted down for its precious metal content, or stripped for its jewels.

After the killing, after the city had been subdued, there began a slow and steady removal of treasures out of the Orthodox temples and into the cathedrals, churches, monasteries, convents, cities and towns of Latin Europe. Some of these items had been venerated, cherished, and protected for centuries, others for a millennium. Now they were being carted away from over a hundred and fifty churches: altars, altar screens, tabernacles, antimins, icons, icon frames,
processional, pectoral and altar crosses, gold and silver chains, panagias, mitres, croziers, chalices, patens, star covers and spears, Gospels, Epistle books, ladles, church plate, censers, votive lights, relics, candelabra, epitaphia, fans, reliquaries, vestments, banners, manuscripts, miniatures, ivories, carvings, mosaics, thrones, tapestries, furniture and architectural items. Cartloads of gold and silver from Santa Sophia found their way into the Vatican treasury.
Constantinople had become the gold mine which supplied Latin Christendom.

The wealth was so great that the looting continued for sixty years.

==========

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« Reply #245 on: January 28, 2004, 02:36:02 AM »

better to be seperate.

  That's the spirit...though Christ doesn't seem to agree, according to Scripture.
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« Reply #246 on: January 28, 2004, 02:44:36 AM »

 That's the spirit...though Christ doesn't seem to agree, according to Scripture.

Well he miscalculated  what a mess the present Day Vatican Religion did to his Church.
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« Reply #247 on: January 28, 2004, 03:19:19 AM »

Well he miscalculated  what a mess the present Day Vatican Religion did to his Church.

  Present day? How has the present-day Vatican created a mess in Christ's Church (I'm assuming you mean the Orthodox Chuch)?

  (Don't get me wrong, not a fan of false ecumenism).
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« Reply #248 on: January 28, 2004, 03:22:02 AM »

Quote
Well he miscalculated  what a mess the present Day Vatican Religion did to his Church.


You mean the Roman Catholic Church?
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« Reply #249 on: January 28, 2004, 08:19:00 AM »

Well he miscalculated  what a mess the present Day Vatican Religion did to his Church.

Might I remind you that the Orthodox-Catholic* Discussion forum we are to "Discuss in charity issues uniting and dividing the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches."

I hope you will understand and not require another reminder.

John.
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« Reply #250 on: January 28, 2004, 09:46:09 AM »

ela re prodromos.
I was being very charitable.
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« Reply #251 on: January 28, 2004, 09:56:12 AM »

plaka mou kaneis;
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« Reply #252 on: January 28, 2004, 10:05:08 AM »

how is my square?
tipota?
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« Reply #253 on: January 28, 2004, 10:18:43 AM »

plaka mou kaneis; = are you kidding me?, you're joking?
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« Reply #254 on: January 28, 2004, 10:23:58 AM »

I don't joke. sorry.
That was being verry charitible.
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« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2004, 09:08:09 PM »

[Now you are an expert on Canon Law...]

Now I never claimed to be an expert on anything especially canon law, just drawing some conclusions.

[You're really reaching here. There was NO vast "EO" conspiracy]

I never said anything about a vast conspiracy just mentioned a 5th column.  They way you describe it "the deposed emp and his father" makes it sound like it was just the two of them.  So as per you I make it sound like a vast conspiracy and as per me you make it sound like it was two fellows out for mischief.  I think the truth is somewhere in between, not quite a vast conspiracy and not just 2 fellows.

[(Yes, even after 1054, there were still Latin bishops, churches, priests, and RCs in Constantinople.)]

Oh come on!  I am familiar with some Byzantine history.

[Heretofore, I was of an mind to forget 1204, but thanks to your prodding me to read the history I will most likely give an unChristian reponse the next time an RC tells me to 'get over it'.]

I never said in anyway that you should "get over it" nor did I imply it.  We should never forget but we should forgive.  We in the West forgive the misuse of the Crusaders of the 1st crusade by the Byzantine emperor.  We forgive the Orthodox who served in the armies of the Turk at the walls of Vienna.  We forgive the persecution of the Catholic Church of both rites under the Tsar in Russia then under the Communists and now under Mr Putin.

My apologies for raising within you such anti-ecumenical feelings.  I in turn shall no longer dialogue with you so as not to raise these feelings again.

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« Reply #256 on: January 28, 2004, 09:41:40 PM »

Here is the full prayer that started this discussion.  Perhaps there is more that needs to be said on topic.

January 16: Veneration of the chains of the holy Apostle Peter
Lord I Call...
Tone 4 To the special melody
Valiant Among Martyrs
Bound to the Lord, you were imprisoned in a dungeon.
Thus you bound falsehood, Apostle.
Therefore we honor you with love
and kiss your chains with faith.
From them we draw healing of body and salvation of our souls.
We fittingly praise you,
God-seer and conversor with the angels.
Those who are bound by ignorance,
receive understanding through you.
The peoples of the gentiles who first were scattered,
were shown to you in an image let down from on high
as a sheet containing every living creature.
Therefore, Apostle, every generation glorifies you,//
venerating the chains which you bore with diligence for Christ!
The One Whom you denied at His condemnation,
you hymned when He rose from the dead.
You preached Him to the ends of the earth, Apostle,
as the God and Man Who in His great goodness
entered into fellowship with mankind!
Therefore, we bless you with love, all-glorious Peter,//
venerating the chains which you bore with diligence for Christ!
Glory... Tone 6 (Byzantine)
Today Peter, the rock of faith,
the foundation of the church,
appoints his precious chains for the devotion of our souls.
Come and let us kiss them,
crowning him with songs of praise and chanting:
Rejoice, fervent champion of the faith,
for with ardent knowledge and great boldness
you confessed Christ, the Son of God!
Rejoice, joy of the universe,
keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven,
for you give grace to those who honor you with love
and venerate your precious chains with longing!
As you stand before the throne of Christ, the King of all,//
ever pray for us who celebrate your memory!
January 16: Veneration of the chains of the holy Apostle Peter
Apostikha
Glory... Tone 6
Peter, the rock of faith,
the fervent intercessor,
again lifts us up together for a spiritual feast,
setting before us his precious chains
as provision for a costly banquet
that our infirmities may be healed and our sorrows consoled,
and the storm-tossed ships of our life brought to harbor.
Come, let us kiss them, and entreat Christ Who glorified him,//
saying: By his prayers, O Christ, save our souls!
January 16: Veneration of the chains of the holy Apostle Peter
Troparion Tone 4
You came to us without leaving Rome
by the precious chains which you wore.
First-enthroned of the apostles
we bow down to them in faith and pray://
By your prayers to God grant us great mercy.
Kontakion Tone 2
Christ the rock, who greatly glorified the first among apostles,
calling him Peter, the rock of faith,
calls us now to honor the miracles wrought through Peter's chains,//
that He may grant us forgiveness of our sins.

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« Reply #257 on: January 28, 2004, 10:54:21 PM »

Danny!..
Those are not PRAYERS.
Those are Kontakion, Troparia and Aposticha.
It's the special Theological/dogmatic pointers for the day to be chanted.  

<duh>
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« Reply #258 on: January 28, 2004, 10:56:20 PM »

sdcheungyboy,

You really don't know sh-t do you?  

Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #259 on: January 28, 2004, 10:58:34 PM »

I know alot more than you .
you come here..  after you check this ?
http://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001042

you intend to make trouble.

as for sh-t look at yourself in the mirror.
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« Reply #260 on: January 28, 2004, 11:01:29 PM »

anastasios,

I think they let this nut case out too soon.  The question I have is this, "Why must he be here?"

Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #261 on: January 28, 2004, 11:03:38 PM »

I'm here to give "Charity" to you. Smiley

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« Reply #262 on: January 28, 2004, 11:06:02 PM »

Dan and Sdcheung,

You've both been warned for using the language you used.  I know you censored out one letter, but what really is the point of that when you are insulting each other?  Cool it!
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« Reply #263 on: January 28, 2004, 11:10:13 PM »

Mor,

Sd is crude and rude.  I don't know why he is allowed on here.  If you do not intend to take seriously some of the things he is saying then how do you suggest I respond to him?  I guess I won't from now on.

Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #264 on: January 28, 2004, 11:24:59 PM »

Crude and Rude?
I only respond expeditiously and in one two sentences.
the keyword is brevity.

How can I be crude and Rude when I only put down 2 sentences?
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