Author Topic: Peter the Rock  (Read 33229 times)

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Offline jbc1949

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Papal Infallibility
« Reply #180 on: January 26, 2004, 01:49:54 PM »
Dan Lauffer writes:

I agree with Cardinal Newman's trepidation.  I don't know what good this doctrine has done the RCC and I can't imagine that VCII would have developed it if given the chance.  I do believe that it will eventually be overthrown...er...reinterpreted.  It will be a wrenching move because it will necessarily fly in the face of the claimed authority of dogmatic pronouncements.  I think the RCC has some rough days ahead but eventually they will all be for the good.  My prayer is that Orthodoxy will press the issue and not simply go off in the corner and point fingers.  In this matter the West desperately needs the East.



If what you have written is true, then the RCC is in big trouble with itself!  To overthrow the dogma is to admit error and thus say to the whole world that the Church in union with Rome is defectible.  Reinterpretation also is problematical in the effective meaning of the dogma.  Reinterpretation could be tantamount to overthrow of the dogma no matter what pretty words are used to explain it away.  How do you soften a blatantly declared dogma without the practical implications that Rome was wrong . . . i.e., defectible . . . during all these centuries since (insert your preferred year),  the split between East and West?

The only way that I can see the dogma's potential "reinterpretation" is to say something along the line that the Pope makes an "infallible" pronouncement in the sense of his exercise of the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Church during or only after consultation, agreement, and union with all the bishops of the world united in an Ecumenical Council.  This would also suggest that "Ecumenical" means Catholic and Orthodox bishops united in a General Council.  And if I understand the purpose of an ecumenical council as the Orthodox understand it--correct me please if I err in this regard--is to witness to the Faith of the Church, not to make new theology.  I perceive that the Orthodox will always look upon the Dogma of the Infallibility of the Pope as new or innovative theology and not a witness to the Faith of the Church no matter how well it has been "reinterpreted" or packaged.

Could you imagine the agenda of an 8th General Council?  Papal infallibility,  the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Purgatory, Indulgences, Grace, Original/Ancestral Sin, the merits of the saints, the celibate/married parish priesthood, baptism by immersion/infusion, . . . , the Filioque clause (I personally favor "From the Father through the Son"), and azymes (well this one may now be moot)!  I surmise that it would take 20 years+ for an 8th General Council to settle these issues.

If some miracle of God leads us eventually to an 8th General Council--i.e., recognized as 8th by Catholics and Orthodox--whatever happens let's not let the liberals interpret it according to the "spirit of Nicea III." [or is it Nicea IV or V?]


I hope I haven't (inadvertently) offended the non-Chalcedonians!

JBC

Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #181 on: January 26, 2004, 02:07:59 PM »
Have you been keeping up with the American RCC?  For much of it it is difficult to tell the difference between it and liberal protestantism.  


   Papal authority works very nicely when it is applied accordingly. (St.) Pope Pius X is a very good example. Under his papacy, modernism in the Church was subdued and forced under ground. In the seminaries, he issued the Oath against Modernism. When he issued statements and decisions, by God he delivered!

   The current pope is not that good of a disciplinarian. He allows too many liberals to get away with mischievous deeds (the same goes for many of the bishops and cardinals). Of course, he nails traditionl Catholics, but not lberals... ::)

   

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Papal Infallibility
« Reply #182 on: January 26, 2004, 02:26:12 PM »

....

Could you imagine the agenda of an 8th General Council?  Papal infallibility,  the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Purgatory, Indulgences, Grace, Original/Ancestral Sin, the merits of the saints, the celibate/married parish priesthood, baptism by immersion/infusion, . . . , the Filioque clause (I personally favor "From the Father through the Son"), and azymes (well this one may now be moot)!  I surmise that it would take 20 years+ for an 8th General Council to settle these issues.

If some miracle of God leads us eventually to an 8th General Council--i.e., recognized as 8th by Catholics and Orthodox--whatever happens let's not let the liberals interpret it according to the "spirit of Nicea III." [or is it Nicea IV or V?]



JBC, Our Eighth Council, as you note has already happened in 879-881 and was so accepted, no? Our Ninth Council was 1341-1351. So our next will be the 10th. Given we've had no General Council in 650+ years, it will take us 20 years to clean up our issues before we can take Rome to task on their innovations ;)

Demetri
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Offline Dan Lauffer

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #183 on: January 26, 2004, 02:39:25 PM »
Demetri,

You make a good point.  I think the council will take much longer than 20 years and may or may not bring success.  However, I think it is worth it.  I agree with your assessment about the cleaning up of Orthodox issues as well.

Dan L

Offline Dan Lauffer

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #184 on: January 26, 2004, 02:40:11 PM »
A council such as we suggest would help clean out some of the arrogance on both sides, I should think.

Dan L

Offline jbc1949

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #185 on: January 26, 2004, 03:40:20 PM »
JBC, Our Eighth Council, as you note has already happened in 879-881 and was so accepted, no? Our Ninth Council was 1341-1351. So our next will be the 10th. Given we've had no General Council in 650+ years, it will take us 20 years to clean up our issues before we can take Rome to task on their innovations
Demetri



I suppose this means that before a "General" Council involving Catholic and Orthodox bishops is held, we will have to beat each other up first on council number.  The Catholics would of course counter that the 8th General Council is the 4th Council of Constantinople (869) and the 9th is the First Lateran Council (1123).  I estimate that this will take another 650+ years of arguing, fighting, anathemizing, and cursing each other before some number is agreed-upon.

Then once the number is settled 20+ years will be required for the Orthodox to settle their internal issues and 100+ years for the Catholics to recover from the "spirit" of Vatican II.  Then we can argue, fight, curse each other, etc., in a Xth General Council for another 100+ years until the issues are beaten to death.  Boy is this going to be a lot of fun!  The Jews, Protestants, Moslems, and pagans throughout the world will enjoy watching this latest version of SmackDown!

What could be the end result of all this bickering????  The Moslems will be 90% of the world's population with the Orthodox/Catholics somewhere in that 10% along with other sundry religious groups.  Oh . . . we will be paying the Dhimmitude and suffering through all the extortion and loss of civil rights that a Dhimmi experiences.  All this because of mutual Catholic-Orthodox arrogance and triumphalism. >:(

How do you think that Islam triumphed in the Middle East and Northern Africa in the first place???  You know what they say . . . a house divided . . . .  On the other hand, like the Flood, Assyria, Babylon, etc., for the Hebrews, perhaps Islam is a Judgement of God on the so called Christians.

JBC

PS:  In my aforementioned jeremiad I in no way intend to marginalize the theological, pastoral, and Church polity differences between Orthodox and Catholics.


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Re:Papal Infallibility
« Reply #186 on: January 26, 2004, 03:48:50 PM »
I hope I haven't (inadvertently) offended the non-Chalcedonians!

Not at all.  Everyone knows that any reunion council would only be the Fourth.  :P
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #187 on: January 26, 2004, 03:51:45 PM »
How protestant and er Roman Catholic to think like that.
People in the East have lonnnnnnng memories. And it's hard to set aside enmity for ppl who did you harm.

What a load of rubbish. Such thinking is not Orthodox, not even Christian. If you think that is Protestant or Roman Catholic then it shows that there is something seriously wrong with your Orthodoxy.
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Offline Jakub

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #188 on: January 26, 2004, 03:52:15 PM »
Today we should all down a shooter to the next Ecumenical Council, I'm sure we won't be around to drink to it then.

james
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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #189 on: January 26, 2004, 03:52:26 PM »
How protestant and er Roman Catholic to think like that.
People in the East have lonnnnnnng memories. And it's hard to set aside enmity for ppl who did you harm.

Just because it is hard doesn't mean it is not necessary to set aside enmity for people who did you harm.  Christianity is all about dying to self, and that is a difficult thing.  Since when does Orthodoxy shrink from proper struggle?  

The other poster's attitude may be "protestant" or "Roman Catholic", but it is far more Orthodox than what you suggest.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #190 on: January 26, 2004, 03:54:03 PM »
Sorry, Peter, you must've posted while I was posting.  :)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #191 on: January 26, 2004, 03:55:04 PM »
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. :)
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #192 on: January 26, 2004, 03:55:49 PM »

JBC

PS:  In my aforementioned jeremiad I in no way intend to marginalize the theological, pastoral, and Church polity differences between Orthodox and Catholics.

Not to dismiss your lengthy reply. We need to clean up our house first.  As to a Great Council with both communions involved, I could not even begin to speculate how that would happen ;) We can't get past the first two issues now over 950 years old between east and West.

Demetri

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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #193 on: January 26, 2004, 04:00:48 PM »
What a load of rubbish. Such thinking is not Orthodox, not even Christian. If you think that is Protestant or Roman Catholic then it shows that there is something seriously wrong with your Orthodoxy.

You simply don't know the Balkans or the middle east.

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #194 on: January 26, 2004, 04:12:30 PM »
You simply don't know the Balkans or the middle east.

Since when does the Orthodox Church get to put aside Christ and His Gospel in favour of the Balkans and the Middle East?
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #195 on: January 26, 2004, 04:14:31 PM »
Maybe not, but I do know Christianity, and hatred of any person is anti-Christ. Such attitudes bring shame upon all Christians and diminish the ability of Christianity to offer the gospel of love without seeming completely hypocritical.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

They which hate shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven!
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Offline jbc1949

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #196 on: January 26, 2004, 04:37:24 PM »
Today we should all down a shooter to the next Ecumenical Council, I'm sure we won't be around to drink to it then.

james

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Offline jbc1949

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #197 on: January 26, 2004, 04:43:50 PM »
Not to dismiss your lengthy reply. We need to clean up our house first.  As to a Great Council with both communions involved, I could not even begin to speculate how that would happen ;) We can't get past the first two issues now over 950 years old between east and West.

Demetri

Demetri

Unfortunately "prolix" is my middle name as my good friends on another forum know only too well and tolerate charitably.

I once read a comment analogous to yours on the web site of a very traditional Orthodox jurisdiction (well what Orthodox jurisdiction isn't traditional?) that stated that Catholics and Protestants must come together 1st before approaching union with Orthodoxy.  If this is true, then add another 650 to 1,000 years to my aforementioned timetable.

Jim C.

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #198 on: January 26, 2004, 04:48:39 PM »
Why on earth would that be necessary, or likely. Sounds like some so called traditionalist just doesn't want to even have to consider doing whatever is necessary and permissible to bring about reconciliation between Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
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Offline jbc1949

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Re:Papal Infallibility
« Reply #199 on: January 26, 2004, 04:51:03 PM »
Not at all.  Everyone knows that any reunion council would only be the Fourth.  :P

Good gracious!  Add another 300+ years to mutually argue, anathemize, curse, etc.  the non-Chalcedonians.  But what will it be?  Orthodox & Catholics vs. non-Chalcedonians or a 3 way fight?

Jim C.

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #200 on: January 26, 2004, 04:54:20 PM »
i don't think that my communion wishes to engage in a fight at all, nor hurl anathemas. On the contrary I think that all faithful Christians should earnestly desire and work for the union of all who love Christ in the fulness of truth with love.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #201 on: January 26, 2004, 05:01:42 PM »
i don't think that my communion wishes to engage in a fight at all, nor hurl anathemas. On the contrary I think that all faithful Christians should earnestly desire and work for the union of all who love Christ in the fulness of truth with love.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

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Offline jbc1949

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #202 on: January 26, 2004, 05:07:00 PM »
i don't think that my communion wishes to engage in a fight at all, nor hurl anathemas. On the contrary I think that all faithful Christians should earnestly desire and work for the union of all who love Christ in the fulness of truth with love.

If you are replying to my last post (and some of the previous ones too), I hope you realize by now that I was being a bit facetious to make a point.

But what was my point? ;D

JBC

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #203 on: January 26, 2004, 05:13:45 PM »
I guessed you were being slightly facetious, but I was responding to the more general spirit which some, not necessarily here, do exhibit, and which your tongue in cheek comment illustrates, but which I understand you do not necessarily share.

I am not convinced that any of the theological controversies which may or may not be real and which are allowed to divide those who love Christ need 300+years to be settled, and in fact I believe that with good will and lots of effort and engagement the situation would be made much clearer after just a year.
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Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #204 on: January 26, 2004, 05:13:56 PM »
Demetri

The Pope was mollified?  I can find no record of the excommunications of the leaders of the 4th crusade being revoked.  Any sources out there?

Carpo-Rusyn

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #205 on: January 26, 2004, 05:19:56 PM »
How protestant and er Roman Catholic to think like that.
People in the East have lonnnnnnng memories. And it's hard to set aside enmity for ppl who did you harm.



Many people have long memories and letting old injuries drive them makes for more wounds and memories for the future.

Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

As the Master said....

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Offline Dan Lauffer

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #206 on: January 26, 2004, 05:24:47 PM »
Except for one silly guy this forum seems like an authentic Christian Orthodox forum.  I wonder if the silly man would like to convert.

Dan Lauffer

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #207 on: January 26, 2004, 05:27:11 PM »
Who's the silly fellow?

CR

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #208 on: January 26, 2004, 05:30:04 PM »
I must confess to often being silly, sometimes stupid, and always hearing the call and feeling the need to be converted.
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Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #209 on: January 26, 2004, 05:32:45 PM »
[I must confess to often being silly, sometimes stupid, and always hearing the call and feeling the need to be converted. ]

Oh yes.  We should always hear the call to conversion. Very true!

CR

Offline Dan Lauffer

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #210 on: January 26, 2004, 05:58:23 PM »
I'm in need of frequent conversions myself.  I pray the sdcheung will grow to love his enemies as he's listed them.

Dan L

Offline jbc1949

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #211 on: January 26, 2004, 06:12:25 PM »
I guessed you were being slightly facetious, but I was responding to the more general spirit which some, not necessarily here, do exhibit, and which your tongue in cheek comment illustrates, but which I understand you do not necessarily share.

I am not convinced that any of the theological controversies which may or may not be real and which are allowed to divide those who love Christ need 300+years to be settled, and in fact I believe that with good will and lots of effort and engagement the situation would be made much clearer after just a year.

You are correct although perhaps it could take 5 years!  I do not share in the bitterness that is frequently express by Orthodox and Catholics (oh there is more than a little of Catholic bitterness that you folks just don't see all that often on this Forum) although being a captive of history as Orthodoxy and Catholicism are captives of their mutual and separate histories, I too must inevitably suffer from it and cause others to suffer from it . . . may God forgive me and forgive others too!

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #212 on: January 26, 2004, 06:14:08 PM »
Yes, I'll allow five years, but it will be a shame, and I mean a thing that shames us,  if it takes hundreds of years to start listening to each other.
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Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #213 on: January 26, 2004, 06:53:09 PM »
In all seriousness (and yes, I get the humor :) ) would we really need to agree on a number? Couldn't it be the eighth council for the RCC, the fourth for Non-Chalcedonians, and the 10th? for Eastern Orthodox?

Offline jbc1949

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #214 on: January 26, 2004, 07:00:36 PM »
In all seriousness (and yes, I get the humor :) ) would we really need to agree on a number? Couldn't it be the eighth council for the RCC, the fourth for Non-Chalcedonians, and the 10th? for Eastern Orthodox?

I think that we ought to number the Church Councils using the binary numbering system.  That way we will be too confused to fight over the number and just might be able to shave a couple of years off the 5 year "optimistic" timeframe! ::)

Jim C.

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #215 on: January 26, 2004, 07:07:13 PM »
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May I copy and paste your note to the Catholic Convert forum when it comes back on line?

Dan, of course you can, no need to ask  :)

Offline Byzantino

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #216 on: January 26, 2004, 07:42:44 PM »
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Papal authority works very nicely when it is applied accordingly. (St.) Pope Pius X is a very good example. Under his papacy, modernism in the Church was subdued and forced under ground. In the seminaries, he issued the Oath against Modernism. When he issued statements and decisions, by God he delivered!

Exactly! Papal authority (not monarchy) rightly understood is a great blessing to the Church.

The issue about the post-schism Western Councils can be resolved if we were to agree with Pope Paul VI's classification of them as "General Synods of the West," not ecumenical councils. As such, since the definitions of these synods were not accepted by the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, they can be abrogated.

I think a possible first step towards union would be to acknowledge the true 8th Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 879-880. Here the Filioque was condemned, the pseudo-8th Ecumenical council of 869 was made null and void, and papal jurisdiction was limited to the West. This Council can rightly be called Ecumenical because the entire Church was represented. Moreover, its status as the 8th Ecumenical stood for 200 years until somebody decided to revert to the pseudo-8th council (it wasn't us.)

Acceptance of the validity of the 8th Ecumenical would entail acceptance of the ecclesiastical model it worked under, viz., collegiality. The West needs to accept the fact that the pope had not and can never have any authority without the consent of his brethren the bishops. For this reason, the Roman ideal of Primacy, viz., primacy of Rome by divine right, cannot have any force if there is no consensus; likewise, the Eastern concept of primacy, epitomised in the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, cannot have any force if the West does not accept it. A compromise has to be reached somehow by the grace of God.

As an aside, i've been reflecting alot on the state of the Oriental Orthodox Church and can't help but find it amazing how, despite being out of communion with the Eastern Orthodox churches, it has retained the purity of the faith in all its forms and preserve a spotless Liturgy, while the Roman church has changed so much of that Tradition, Liturgy, and has been busy trying to appear "relevant" to the world.

Offline Byzantino

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #217 on: January 26, 2004, 08:34:35 PM »
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The Pope was mollified?  I can find no record of the excommunications of the leaders of the 4th crusade being revoked.  Any sources out there?

There's no evidence of the excommunications being withdrawn to my knowledge. Innocent was shocked at the actions of the Crusaders:

"You have spared nothing that is sacred, neither age nor sex. You have given yourselves up to prostitution, to adultery, and to debauchery in the face of all the world. You have glutted your guilty passions, not only on married women, but upon women and virgins dedicated to the Saviour. You have not been content with the imperial treasures and the goods of rich and poor, but you have seized even the wealth of the Church and what belongs to it. You have pillaged the silver tables of the altars, you have broken into the sacristies and stolen the vessels." Reg., VIII. Ep., 133

But there is evidence of Innocent's blameworthiness for his passivity which followed:

"The Greeks, notwithstanding the bad treatment they suffer from those who wish to force them to return to the obedience of the Roman Church, cannot make up their minds to do so, because they only see crimes and works of darkness in the Latins, and they hate them like dogs....But the judgements of God are impenetrable, and hence we would not judge lightly in this affair. It may be that the Greeks have been justly punished for their sins, although you acted unjustly in gratifying your own hatred against them; it is possible that God may justly reward you for having been the instruments of His own vengeance."

"Let us leave these doubtful questions. This is certain, that you may keep and defend the land which is conquered for you by the decision of God; upon this condition, however, that you will restore the possessions of the churches, and that you alwys remain faithful to the holy see and to us."

Who knows, we may hear a future Council of union rightly pronounce anathema against Innocent III.

Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #218 on: January 26, 2004, 09:29:03 PM »
   I am not questioning the idea that local councils dealt with certain areas, and that the Pope might not have been invoked. But I do have a question.

   What about Pope St. Victor (or Felix) and Easter celebration in the Oriental churches? Didn't he end up excommunicating them (I believe Iraeneus wrote something on this)? I have also read that general councils had spoke on when they celebrated it, and they were pretty much united there.
If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #219 on: January 26, 2004, 10:22:00 PM »
Demetri

The Pope was mollified?  I can find no record of the excommunications of the leaders of the 4th crusade being revoked.  Any sources out there?

Carpo-Rusyn

Yes, my good friend, carpo-rusyn, there are sources. And I can always rely upon you to bring me to task and do further homework. This homework, if not resulting in a retraction on my part, certainly requires re-statement of historical fact. The following clarification may not be to your particular liking, however.
Joseph Dahmus, Professor of Medieval History at Pennsylvania State University relates the facts*as I summerize below.

The Venetian Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade were not excommunicated by Pope Innocent III for sacking the Christian city of Constantinople because he had ALREADY excommunicated the Venetian contingent of the Fourth Crusade for their sacking of the Roman Catholic city of Zara, a possession of the Roman Catholic King of Hungary prior to their ever arriving in New Rome. After the Venetians attacked Zara and received excommunication by the Pope for this financially-motivated attack (Demetri likes to think of them as medieval age Deep Space 9 Ferengi) these crusaders agreed in conspiracy with the son of the deposed Roman emperor to restore the son's family to the Roman throne. Their reward, booty and "to heal the schism". These ALREADY excommunicated crusaders then proceeded to violate Constantinople (and Mt Athos?) restoring the deposed family to the throne. Pope Innocent III (perhaps "not-so-innocent") was not totally displeased with the outcome and set up Constantinople and the remaing eastern empire as "a papal fief" complete with a Latin patriarch, Latin rites, the deposition of eastern clergy, etc.)

So, C-R, you are correct, in a sordid sort of way. And I now am beginning to remember why my ancestors held such a grudge. And some of their descendents still do, apparently.

*The Middle Ages, A Popular History, Joseph Dahmus, Victor Gollancz Ltd., London, 1969. page 276.

Demetri
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2004, 10:33:50 PM »

It seems a mute point to discuss whether the 4th crusaders were excommunicated or not by the Pope.  The real point is that he didn't waste time on taking advantage of what they had done by setting up a Latin Patriarchate and accepting looted and stolen property for some 70+ years until and Orthodox Patriarchate was re-established.

Actions still speak louder than words!

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2004, 10:39:52 PM »

It seems a mute point to discuss whether the 4th crusaders were excommunicated or not by the Pope.  The real point is that he didn't waste time on taking advantage of what they had done by setting up a Latin Patriarchate and accepting looted and stolen property for some 70+ years until and Orthodox Patriarchate was re-established.

Actions still speak louder than words!

Orthodoc
I agree! A great gesture might be to return (to Mt Athos, away from the Turks) all the booty now at the Vatican. Actions would speak louder than...
Demetri
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Offline Byzantino

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2004, 11:22:35 PM »
Quote
What about Pope St. Victor (or Felix) and Easter celebration in the Oriental churches? Didn't he end up excommunicating them (I believe Iraeneus wrote something on this)? I have also read that general councils had spoke on when they celebrated it, and they were pretty much united there.

The conflict involved Pope Victor and some of the Eastern sees quabbling over two equally valid celebrations of Easter, both of Apostolic origin. Pope Victor was adamant in making the rest of the Church conform to the Roman practice which was met with stringent opposition from the East. The Pope excommunicated them all, and what followed was strong rebukes leveled against the Pope by many, among whom was St. Irenaeus, who convinced the Pope to withdraw his excommunications.

The early Fathers exhibited a strong zeal to maintain unity in the Church, condemning the sin of schism in very strong terms, as seen particularly in Pope St. Clement, Cyprian and Augustine. Contrary to RC claims this episode is not evidence of universal papal jurisdiction because "being in the Church" was never conditional to being in union with Rome. One early example to demonstrate this is Firmillian's letter to Cyprian on the controversy with Pope Stephen on the issue of re-baptising heretics and schismatics:

"Those who are at Rome do not observe all the things which were given at the beginning, and it is in vain that they pretend to support themselves upon the authority of the Apostles....I have reason to be indignant at the manifest folly of Stephen, who, on the one hand, glories in his episcopal seat, and pretends to possess the succession of Peter, upon whom the foundations of the Church were placed, and who, on the other hand, introduces other stones, and constructs new buildings for other churches, by asserting, upon his own authority, that they possess the true baptism...You, Africans, you may say to Stephen, that having known the truth, you have rejected the custom of error; but for us, we possess at the same time, truth and usage; we oppose our custom against that of the Romans; our usage is that of truth, preserving, since the beginning, that which Christ and the Apostles have given to us...Yet Stephen does not blush to affirm, that those in sin can remit sins, as though the waters of life could be found in the house of the dead. What! Dost thou not fear God's judgement, when thouh showest thyself favourable to heretics against the Church!....What grievous sin thou has committed in separating thyself from so many flocks! Thou has killed thyself; do not deceive thyself; for he is truly schismatic who renounces the communion of the unity of the Church! While thou thinkest that all others are separated from thee, it is thou who art separated from all others." (Firmillian ad Cyprian, Ep. 75.)





Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2004, 11:55:21 PM »
  Someone please enlighten me then on how the Orthodox define St. Peter as the "bearer of the keys of heaven", and Rome being called the Apostolic See of Peter, but his predecessors not obtaining the same keys.
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Offline Byzantino

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Re:Peter the Rock
« Reply #224 on: January 27, 2004, 12:22:27 AM »
The successors of Peter in Rome do bear the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, on the condition that they remain in the Orthodox faith. The Fathers just didn't say that Peter alone holds the keys because in their view, Peter represented the other Apostles when he was made the Rock (cf. St. Augustine, St. Cyprian) and the same authority of the keys was bestowed upon them all (cf. Matt 18:18.)

"Will you venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter in particular but shall prevail against the others? Are not the words "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" addressed to them all? (Origen, Commentary on Matt.)