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Author Topic: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese in the USA  (Read 3302 times) Average Rating: 0
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pious1
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« on: April 13, 2010, 11:46:38 AM »

Im curious, does anyone know if in the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese in the USA do they use Ukrainian in their liturgy? Do they use Rusyn? If they use Rusyn, is there a large difference in Rusyn and Ukrainian liek there is in Ukrainian and Russian?
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 12:05:01 PM »

Im curious, does anyone know if in the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese in the USA do they use Ukrainian in their liturgy? Do they use Rusyn? If they use Rusyn, is there a large difference in Rusyn and Ukrainian liek there is in Ukrainian and Russian?

LOL. Opening a can of worms, are we?

I converted at a CR OCA parish. I recognized the language as Ukrainian.  When I said this to the priest, he said "Well, the Ukrainians were on one side of the mountain, and we were on the other side of the mountain." "And," I added, "you went to Church every Sunday to thank God for the mountain."

Not terribly different, but there are some differences.
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 12:38:29 PM »

ACROD parishes primarily use English in their services, with a smattering of Church Slavonic from time to time. The amount varies by parish and pastor's preferences. None, to my knowledge, use Rusyn or Ukrainian. When I was a child there would be a sermon in both English and 'ponashomu' but that went out about forty years ago or so.
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 01:11:38 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 01:20:24 PM »

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is." 

I've heard the Ukranian and Slovak self-identifications; but certainly not "Russian."  I've been corrected more than once to say "Rusyn" instead, and I've heard a diatribe or two about how they're not related to the "Muscovites."
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 01:39:56 PM »

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is." 

I've heard the Ukranian and Slovak self-identifications; but certainly not "Russian."  I've been corrected more than once to say "Rusyn" instead, and I've heard a diatribe or two about how they're not related to the "Muscovites."

Russian was the norm in the parish I attended, though they indentified their "old country" as Slovakia (this was even in the days of Czechoslovakia).  Czech is odd, given that the CR aren't from the Czech Lands.

As for not knowing, there are two that can be pointed out:Michael Strank (the leader of the marine squandron which raised the flag on Iwo Jima (he's in the middle of the famous photo/statue), portrayed in Clint Eastwood's "Flags of Our Fathers") and Andy Warhol. On him, art historians see the influence of the iconography of his home parish St. John Chrysostom Byzantine Catholic Church on his art. Known for his flamboyant lifestyle, it is little known that he went to daily mass (and crossing himself "in the Orthodox fashion" in Latin parishes), daily worked in a local soup kitchen, amuzed by the fact that the clientel had no ideas who he was, took great pride in financing his nephew's education etc. for the priesthood, and was responsible for at least one conversion.  A large body of religious works were found after his death in his home.
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 01:49:59 PM »

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."  

I've heard the Ukranian and Slovak self-identifications; but certainly not "Russian."  I've been corrected more than once to say "Rusyn" instead, and I've heard a diatribe or two about how they're not related to the "Muscovites."

To some extent the differentiation in self-identification comes from time period an immigrant came to America. I don't know if it is online, but John Righetti , President of the CRS (Carpatho-Rusyn Society) has an excellent presentation about the various names used to self-identify. The loss of cultural identity that followed the first wave of assimilation of former Greek Catholics into the Russian Orthodox Church in the first quarter of the twentieth century heavily influenced the second wave of Greek Catholics who came into Orthodoxy through ACROD and the EP as well as those who chose to remain Greek Catholic. Unfortunately, many of the unique cultural attributes of the early Rusyn Greek Catholic immigrants were wrongly viewed as being 'Roman' or 'Latin' innovations when Orthodoxy was adopted. Hence, in many parishes the traditional chant of the Rusyns was replaced by Kievan Chant and Russian Choral Music. (Granted there were many litugical Latinizations that properly have been 'weeded out' over time from Rusyn rubrics, both on the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic side of the fence.) Interestingly enough, some of those practices have actually been identified by scholars as pre-Nikonian rather than Latin.

I think that it can be summed up that the Carpatho-Rusyns often knew who they were not, but, having no defined homeland in Europe (they were spread thoughout the Eastern regions of the Austro-Hungarian Empire across the Carpathian Highlands in what is now modern Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine, Romania and Hungary.) they possessed a confused sense of who they actually were. Here is a link to the Carpatho-Rusyn Society with their explanation of 'Who are the Rusyns."  http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 01:55:18 PM »

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is." 

I've heard the Ukranian and Slovak self-identifications; but certainly not "Russian."  I've been corrected more than once to say "Rusyn" instead, and I've heard a diatribe or two about how they're not related to the "Muscovites."

The 'diatribe' about not being 'Muscovites' comes from the prior mentioned assimilation that occurred when the first wave of return to Orthodoxy took place. In my grandparents' time, during the celibacy and property disputes of the 1930's, the rallying cry of the Rusyn Greek Catholics was 'Neither to Rome nor to Moscow' having been 'burned' historically by both. The welcome embrace of this group by the +Archbishop, later Patriarch Athenogoras of thrice blessed  memory led to the creation of ACROD. A detailed history can be found at http://www.acrod.org/diocese/history
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 02:14:52 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)

As an American of Carpatho Rusyn descent I have been told all my life by Ukrainans that I'm nothing more than a Ukrainian hillbilly or mountain person.  And the tone used was never in a joking manner.  That's when I would reply by reminding those who think so, that my grandparents culture accepted Christianity from Sts Cyril & Methodius a century before those who now identify themselves as Ukrainians.  Which means my 'mountain people' (as we are also referred to by Ukrainians) had a culture and were were singing 'Lord Have Mercy' for a century or more  while their ancestors were still bowing down before carved tree trunks.  I have also heard about the two sides of the mountain response and think it is the best way to reply to ethnic insults such as this.  That's the way I reply now.

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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 02:17:37 PM »

English with a smattering of church slavonic at my parish.
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 02:18:46 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)

As an American of Carpatho Rusyn descent I have been told all my life by Ukraiians that I'm nothing more than a Ukrainian hillbilly or mountain person.  And the tone used was never in a joking manner.  That's when I would reply by reminding those who think so, that my grandparents culture accepted Christianity from Sts Cyril & Methodius a century before those who identify themselves as Ukrainians.  Which means my 'mountain people' (as we are also referred to by Ukrainians) had a culture and were were singing 'Lord Have Mercy' for a century or more  while their ancestors were still bowing down before carved tree trunks.  I have also heard about the two sides of the mountain response and think it is the best way to reply to ethnic insults.  That's the way I reply now.
When the Ukrainians say that the CR are Ukrainian, but just don't want to admit it, I say "funny, that's just what the Russians tell me about you Ukrainians."
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 02:19:22 PM »

English with a smattering of church slavonic at my parish.
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 02:26:00 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)

As an American of Carpatho Rusyn descent I have been told all my life by Ukraiians that I'm nothing more than a Ukrainian hillbilly or mountain person.  And the tone used was never in a joking manner.  That's when I would reply by reminding those who think so, that my grandparents culture accepted Christianity from Sts Cyril & Methodius a century before those who identify themselves as Ukrainians.  Which means my 'mountain people' (as we are also referred to by Ukrainians) had a culture and were were singing 'Lord Have Mercy' for a century or more  while their ancestors were still bowing down before carved tree trunks.  I have also heard about the two sides of the mountain response and think it is the best way to reply to ethnic insults.  That's the way I reply now.
When the Ukrainians say that the CR are Ukrainian, but just don't want to admit it, I say "funny, that's just what the Russians tell me about you Ukrainians."

You aren't a fan of Ukrainians are you?
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 02:33:51 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)

As an American of Carpatho Rusyn descent I have been told all my life by Ukraiians that I'm nothing more than a Ukrainian hillbilly or mountain person.  And the tone used was never in a joking manner.  That's when I would reply by reminding those who think so, that my grandparents culture accepted Christianity from Sts Cyril & Methodius a century before those who identify themselves as Ukrainians.  Which means my 'mountain people' (as we are also referred to by Ukrainians) had a culture and were were singing 'Lord Have Mercy' for a century or more  while their ancestors were still bowing down before carved tree trunks.  I have also heard about the two sides of the mountain response and think it is the best way to reply to ethnic insults.  That's the way I reply now.
When the Ukrainians say that the CR are Ukrainian, but just don't want to admit it, I say "funny, that's just what the Russians tell me about you Ukrainians."

You aren't a fan of Ukrainians are you?
On the contrary, I'm quite fond of Ukrainians. Just not enough to condone them sneering at the CR as Russians sneer at Ukraine.
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 02:43:00 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)

As an American of Carpatho Rusyn descent I have been told all my life by Ukraiians that I'm nothing more than a Ukrainian hillbilly or mountain person.  And the tone used was never in a joking manner.  That's when I would reply by reminding those who think so, that my grandparents culture accepted Christianity from Sts Cyril & Methodius a century before those who identify themselves as Ukrainians.  Which means my 'mountain people' (as we are also referred to by Ukrainians) had a culture and were were singing 'Lord Have Mercy' for a century or more  while their ancestors were still bowing down before carved tree trunks.  I have also heard about the two sides of the mountain response and think it is the best way to reply to ethnic insults.  That's the way I reply now.
When the Ukrainians say that the CR are Ukrainian, but just don't want to admit it, I say "funny, that's just what the Russians tell me about you Ukrainians."

That is so true, it was one of my dad's favorite lines. The spoken language of Rusyns is indeed similar to Ukrainian. The closer one gets to the Slovak heartland (say around Presov) the more Slovak accentation and influence may be heard. The closer one is to Uzhorod or Mucachevo, the closer to Ukrainian.  My family comes from the region of Slovakia adjacent to the Dukla Pass and Poland. The Greek Catholic Galicians and Lemkos on the Polish side of the border spoke a similar dialect, again with a different accent. My late father could speak 'slovak' Rusyn as if he was a native.  In our town the Rusyn Greek Catholic church, St. Michael's, now Orthodox, was founded in 1904. From her founders later came Dormition OCA Church (they were Lemkos), St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church (they were Ukrainians), Sacred Heart Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (they were Galician/Ukrainians), Holy Spirit Byzantine Church (they lost the court case), and three parishes in Endicott, NY ( one OCA, one ACROD and one Byzantine). The funny thing is that when the 'outsiders' do the picnic circuit in the summer they always say that we serve the same stuff and sing the same songs. Tough to explain.....Thanks be to God, today we all get along rather well!
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 02:56:22 PM »

Dear ones...

I, for one, do not have a slightest intention to offend any Rusyn, to call him or her a hilbilly or a "mountain person." But I assure you that "Rusyn" was a very common self-identification of the people who were, indeed, Ukrainian as far as their language and culture was concerned and who happened to live outside of the borders of the Russian empire. Just like those Ukrainians who lived in the lands belonging to the Romanovs' dynasty were encouraged to call themselves "Malorosy" ("Small Russians"), the "outside-the-Romanov" people were, for many generations, growing up hearing that they are Rusyny, Rusy, Rus', etc. But we - "Small Russians" AND Rusyny - ARE the same people. We share the same language (albeit with somewhat different dialects), and essentially the same authentic culture.

I have a vivid memory of my father-in-law's mother, whom I first met (in 1983) when she was already in her 80-s. She was born in in what is now Poland, and went to school where the teachers spoke only Polish. She always refered to herself as a Rusynka, never a "Ukrainian" (I am not sure she even understood the meaning of the words "Ukraine" and Ukrainian"). But the language she spoke with her son - my father-in-law, and with her daughter-in-law (my mother-in-law) was most definitely Ukrainian!!! On the other hand, she could never understood even one sentence if she was listening to the Moscow radio broadcasting in Russian.

My father-in-law as a boy went to a Polish "gymnasium" where he had lessons of Polish, and of the language his Polish teachers called "Jezyka Rusin's'ka." Again, that language was the same language that is spoken now in Kyiv, L'viv, Luts'k, Novhorod-Sivers'ky, and other cities and towns and villages of the present-day Ukraine. Just with some dialectisms...

Again, I don't have a slightest intention to put anybody down and call anybody names. But, Isa and others, you are wrong.
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 03:11:21 PM »

Dear ones...

I, for one, do not have a slightest intention to offend any Rusyn, to call him or her a hilbilly or a "mountain person." But I assure you that "Rusyn" was a very common self-identification of the people who were, indeed, Ukrainian as far as their language and culture was concerned and who happened to live outside of the borders of the Russian empire. Just like those Ukrainians who lived in the lands belonging to the Romanovs' dynasty were encouraged to call themselves "Malorosy" ("Small Russians"), the "outside-the-Romanov" people were, for many generations, growing up hearing that they are Rusyny, Rusy, Rus', etc. But we - "Small Russians" AND Rusyny - ARE the same people. We share the same language (albeit with somewhat different dialects), and essentially the same authentic culture.

I have a vivid memory of my father-in-law's mother, whom I first met (in 1983) when she was already in her 80-s. She was born in in what is now Poland, and went to school where the teachers spoke only Polish. She always refered to herself as a Rusynka, never a "Ukrainian" (I am not sure she even understood the meaning of the words "Ukraine" and Ukrainian"). But the language she spoke with her son - my father-in-law, and with her daughter-in-law (my mother-in-law) was most definitely Ukrainian!!! On the other hand, she could never understood even one sentence if she was listening to the Moscow radio broadcasting in Russian.

My father-in-law as a boy went to a Polish "gymnasium" where he had lessons of Polish, and of the language his Polish teachers called "Jezyka Rusin's'ka." Again, that language was the same language that is spoken now in Kyiv, L'viv, Luts'k, Novhorod-Sivers'ky, and other cities and towns and villages of the present-day Ukraine. Just with some dialectisms...

Again, I don't have a slightest intention to put anybody down and call anybody names. But, Isa and others, you are wrong.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4mmoZFtCpuoC&pg=PA67&dq=Imagined+communities+Old+Languages+New+Models&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Imagined%20communities%20Old%20Languages%20New%20Models&f=false
Imagined communities: reflections on the origin and spread of nationalism By Benedict R. O'G. Anderson (esp. chapter 5 Old Languages, New Models).
http://books.google.com/books?id=sfvnNdVY3KIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=invention+of+traditin&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
The invention of tradition By Eric J. Hobsbawm, Terence O. Ranger
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 03:13:09 PM »

My family comes from Slovakia around the area near the northwest polish border a town called velky' Leipnik. They never have and never will identify themselves as Ukrainian. We are not nor have we ever been Ukrainian. We are Slovaks. We received the language from Cyril and Methodius as was mentioned in a previous post. As far as language usage, the ACROD church I grew up in used English most of the time, but would use "church slavonic" as they called it; if someone requested it for a service of special intention, funeral, etc. As far as the ACROD diocese is concerned, they are closely related with the Greek Catholic church which they were members of for quite a time.

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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 03:20:32 PM »

Dear ones...

I, for one, do not have a slightest intention to offend any Rusyn, to call him or her a hilbilly or a "mountain person." But I assure you that "Rusyn" was a very common self-identification of the people who were, indeed, Ukrainian as far as their language and culture was concerned and who happened to live outside of the borders of the Russian empire. Just like those Ukrainians who lived in the lands belonging to the Romanovs' dynasty were encouraged to call themselves "Malorosy" ("Small Russians"), the "outside-the-Romanov" people were, for many generations, growing up hearing that they are Rusyny, Rusy, Rus', etc. But we - "Small Russians" AND Rusyny - ARE the same people. We share the same language (albeit with somewhat different dialects), and essentially the same authentic culture.

I have a vivid memory of my father-in-law's mother, whom I first met (in 1983) when she was already in her 80-s. She was born in in what is now Poland, and went to school where the teachers spoke only Polish. She always refered to herself as a Rusynka, never a "Ukrainian" (I am not sure she even understood the meaning of the words "Ukraine" and Ukrainian"). But the language she spoke with her son - my father-in-law, and with her daughter-in-law (my mother-in-law) was most definitely Ukrainian!!! On the other hand, she could never understood even one sentence if she was listening to the Moscow radio broadcasting in Russian.

My father-in-law as a boy went to a Polish "gymnasium" where he had lessons of Polish, and of the language his Polish teachers called "Jezyka Rusin's'ka." Again, that language was the same language that is spoken now in Kyiv, L'viv, Luts'k, Novhorod-Sivers'ky, and other cities and towns and villages of the present-day Ukraine. Just with some dialectisms...

Again, I don't have a slightest intention to put anybody down and call anybody names. But, Isa and others, you are wrong.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4mmoZFtCpuoC&pg=PA67&dq=Imagined+communities+Old+Languages+New+Models&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Imagined%20communities%20Old%20Languages%20New%20Models&f=false
Imagined communities: reflections on the origin and spread of nationalism By Benedict R. O'G. Anderson (esp. chapter 5 Old Languages, New Models).
http://books.google.com/books?id=sfvnNdVY3KIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=invention+of+traditin&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
The invention of tradition By Eric J. Hobsbawm, Terence O. Ranger

See I always thought that Rusyns were just another name for Lemkos and Boykos, from what you are saying I guess that inst far off, unless you are a Rusyn from former Czechoslovakia.
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 03:20:58 PM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2010, 03:21:04 PM »

Dear ones...

I, for one, do not have a slightest intention to offend any Rusyn, to call him or her a hilbilly or a "mountain person." But I assure you that "Rusyn" was a very common self-identification of the people who were, indeed, Ukrainian as far as their language and culture was concerned and who happened to live outside of the borders of the Russian empire. Just like those Ukrainians who lived in the lands belonging to the Romanovs' dynasty were encouraged to call themselves "Malorosy" ("Small Russians"), the "outside-the-Romanov" people were, for many generations, growing up hearing that they are Rusyny, Rusy, Rus', etc. But we - "Small Russians" AND Rusyny - ARE the same people. We share the same language (albeit with somewhat different dialects), and essentially the same authentic culture.

I have a vivid memory of my father-in-law's mother, whom I first met (in 1983) when she was already in her 80-s. She was born in in what is now Poland, and went to school where the teachers spoke only Polish. She always refered to herself as a Rusynka, never a "Ukrainian" (I am not sure she even understood the meaning of the words "Ukraine" and Ukrainian"). But the language she spoke with her son - my father-in-law, and with her daughter-in-law (my mother-in-law) was most definitely Ukrainian!!! On the other hand, she could never understood even one sentence if she was listening to the Moscow radio broadcasting in Russian.

My father-in-law as a boy went to a Polish "gymnasium" where he had lessons of Polish, and of the language his Polish teachers called "Jezyka Rusin's'ka." Again, that language was the same language that is spoken now in Kyiv, L'viv, Luts'k, Novhorod-Sivers'ky, and other cities and towns and villages of the present-day Ukraine. Just with some dialectisms...

Again, I don't have a slightest intention to put anybody down and call anybody names. But, Isa and others, you are wrong.

What you say is true, my dad could converse with a Lemko, Galician, Boyko, Ukrainian, but not understand a word of Russian. It drove him crazy when the Rusynaky called themselves Russian. The effects of panSlavism and anti-Hapsburg propaganda in the days leading up to the first war confused the heck out of the peoples not living within the historical borders of Ukraine. The dialectical differences are probably less pronounced than those between say, American and British English and more akin to regional varients of American English that were more prominent in the pre-television era. In Slovakia today my relatives identify themselves more as Slovak than Rusyn and my wife's relatives living near Uzhorod  are a bit more ambiguous in how they self-identify. I do know that the pro-Rusyn movement in Uzhorod ran into political problems with the prior Ukrainian leadership and unfortunately some of them have taken comfort with help from Moscow in their efforts to carve out a seperate identity.

But there are differences, primarily in the liturgical chant used by the Rusyns, called prostopenije, which is considerably different in sound from Kievan chant. That is the one cultural difference that sets Rusyns aside from the bulk of greater Ukraine - be they Orthodox or Greek Catholic. Also, as a result of the Hungarian influence in western Ukraine, Poland and Slovakia, one will observe different folk embroidery patterning the further west you go. My wife's hand craft is very floral as opposed to geometric. It is interesting to see the changes as you move west by county.

Finally a happy note. When the old timers were around, in our little city in New York we had six churches in the neighborhood, the people in each probably came from within several hundred square miles of each other. They would bicker endlessly. Last year my wife and I were setting up a Rusyn Christmas display at the local museum. Also present were the Poles, the Slovaks and the two Ukrainian communities- Orthodox and Greek Catholic. We looked at each other's displays with representations of the Holy Night Supper tradition, hand crafted ornaments , dolls, clothing and other artifacts and paintings that the Ukrainains, Rusyns and Slovaks had of the old country vecer. We had a good laugh as we realized that the 'Yanks' would scratch their heads and wonder what these folks were arguing about all these years! I tell people it is like the British Isles, don't confuse an Englishman with a Scot, a Welshman or an Irishman. Its similar, but different and we know the difference.
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2010, 03:22:08 PM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".

There are also Rusyns in Serbia near Novy Sad. All of the initial dispersement came about during the reign of the Hapsburgs.
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2010, 03:23:36 PM »

My family comes from Slovakia around the area near the northwest polish border a town called velky' Leipnik. They never have and never will identify themselves as Ukrainian. We are not nor have we ever been Ukrainian. We are Slovaks. We received the language from Cyril and Methodius as was mentioned in a previous post. As far as language usage, the ACROD church I grew up in used English most of the time, but would use "church slavonic" as they called it; if someone requested it for a service of special intention, funeral, etc. As far as the ACROD diocese is concerned, they are closely related with the Greek Catholic church which they were members of for quite a time.

-Nick

Professor Ivan Reshetar (formerly the head of the Department of Political Sciences at the University of Washington in Seattle) is from Pryashov, Eastern Slovakia, and when he was growing up he also heard stories about him and his relatives being Slovaks or Slovenes or Slavs or Cyrilmethodians or what not. But he did some reading and understood that he was Ukrainian, that he belongs to the same nationality as me, a Kyivite, or a Ukrainian-speaking person from Volyn', etc. Pan Ivan became a pillar of the Ukrainian community in the Pacific Northwest...
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2010, 03:25:49 PM »

I know of some Ukrainians who have attended ACROD or OCA parishes when a UOC parish was not available, but I'm not sure how close the languages are.

I have heard of Carpatho-Rusyn's who identify themselves as Ukrainian, some identify themselves as Russian, and I know of one who actually identified herself as Czech (which I found odd.) When I asked why she claimed to be Czech instead of Carpatho-Rusyn, her reply was that "no one in America knows what Carpatho-Rusyn is."

When a friend of mine told his Ukrainian priest that his family was Carpatho-Rusyn, the priest boisterously declared "Why, you're nothing but a Ukrainian hillbilly!"  laugh


(He was joking, please don't take offense to his comment.)

As an American of Carpatho Rusyn descent I have been told all my life by Ukrainans that I'm nothing more than a Ukrainian hillbilly or mountain person.  And the tone used was never in a joking manner.  That's when I would reply by reminding those who think so, that my grandparents culture accepted Christianity from Sts Cyril & Methodius a century before those who now identify themselves as Ukrainians.  Which means my 'mountain people' (as we are also referred to by Ukrainians) had a culture and were were singing 'Lord Have Mercy' for a century or more  while their ancestors were still bowing down before carved tree trunks.  I have also heard about the two sides of the mountain response and think it is the best way to reply to ethnic insults such as this.  That's the way I reply now.

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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2010, 03:35:13 PM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".

Yes, and in the extreme West of Ukraine (formerly Austro-Hungarian lands) they call themselves Rusyny or Rus'ki. But I, who was born in the capital of Soviet Ukraine and studied in Soviet Ukrainian schools, can easily understand their language. Moreover, my school curricula in Ukrainian literature included works by three authors-Rusyns who wrote in the 1820-s and who were known to their contemporaries as "Rus'ka Trijcya" (Russian/Rusyn Trinity): Markiyan Shashkevych, Jakiv Holovats'kyj and Ivan Vahylevych. I also read, during my secondary school years, many novels by Yosyf Yuriy Fed'kovych and Valyl' Stefanyk. There is no way in the world to identify these wonderful, beautiful pieces of prose written in a language that is not Ukrainian!
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2010, 03:57:16 PM »

FYI, I just want to remind people that this is the public fora and any and all posts that so much as toe the line to politics will be moved and the offending poster properly censured.  This thread has so far been very civil and on topic and I'd like to see it continue that way.

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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2010, 12:38:28 AM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".

Yes, and in the extreme West of Ukraine (formerly Austro-Hungarian lands) they call themselves Rusyny or Rus'ki. But I, who was born in the capital of Soviet Ukraine and studied in Soviet Ukrainian schools, can easily understand their language. Moreover, my school curricula in Ukrainian literature included works by three authors-Rusyns who wrote in the 1820-s and who were known to their contemporaries as "Rus'ka Trijcya" (Russian/Rusyn Trinity): Markiyan Shashkevych, Jakiv Holovats'kyj and Ivan Vahylevych. I also read, during my secondary school years, many novels by Yosyf Yuriy Fed'kovych and Valyl' Stefanyk. There is no way in the world to identify these wonderful, beautiful pieces of prose written in a language that is not Ukrainian!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazychie

Comprehesnibility isn't determinative.  Italians from the toe to the hilt of the boot can't understand each other, yet both claim to speak Italian dialect.  I can't understand a word of Morrocan Arabic.  Chinese speakers can understand each other if they speak Mandarin, otherwise their Chinese are mutually unintelligible.  Conversely, Scandinavian speakers (Germanic, not Suomi or Finns) can understand each other speaking their own language: Norwegian is actually the "Iazychie" of Danish.  The Plattdeutsch dialects of Northern Germany are a different language branch, but they are seen as dialects of Hochdeutsch.  Then there are the Croats and Serbs, and Hindis and Urdu speakers, who claim to speak different languages.  Languages, like nationalities and ethnicities, are imagined communities.

On Romania, I knew a Romania, or former Romanian I should say, who became Carpatho-Russian.  He had no slavic ancestery, was married to a Romanian, was not from Bucovina.  Ironically, his name was "Dacian" the name of the pre-Slavic (and pre-Roman) people.  He couldn't speak the language.  He just went to a Ruthenian Church and declared himself Ruthenian.
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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2010, 09:39:27 AM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".

Yes, and in the extreme West of Ukraine (formerly Austro-Hungarian lands) they call themselves Rusyny or Rus'ki. But I, who was born in the capital of Soviet Ukraine and studied in Soviet Ukrainian schools, can easily understand their language. Moreover, my school curricula in Ukrainian literature included works by three authors-Rusyns who wrote in the 1820-s and who were known to their contemporaries as "Rus'ka Trijcya" (Russian/Rusyn Trinity): Markiyan Shashkevych, Jakiv Holovats'kyj and Ivan Vahylevych. I also read, during my secondary school years, many novels by Yosyf Yuriy Fed'kovych and Valyl' Stefanyk. There is no way in the world to identify these wonderful, beautiful pieces of prose written in a language that is not Ukrainian!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazychie

Comprehesnibility isn't determinative.  Italians from the toe to the hilt of the boot can't understand each other, yet both claim to speak Italian dialect.  I can't understand a word of Morrocan Arabic.  Chinese speakers can understand each other if they speak Mandarin, otherwise their Chinese are mutually unintelligible.  Conversely, Scandinavian speakers (Germanic, not Suomi or Finns) can understand each other speaking their own language: Norwegian is actually the "Iazychie" of Danish.  The Plattdeutsch dialects of Northern Germany are a different language branch, but they are seen as dialects of Hochdeutsch.  Then there are the Croats and Serbs, and Hindis and Urdu speakers, who claim to speak different languages.  Languages, like nationalities and ethnicities, are imagined communities.

On Romania, I knew a Romania, or former Romanian I should say, who became Carpatho-Russian.  He had no slavic ancestery, was married to a Romanian, was not from Bucovina.  Ironically, his name was "Dacian" the name of the pre-Slavic (and pre-Roman) people.  He couldn't speak the language.  He just went to a Ruthenian Church and declared himself Ruthenian.

So what defines a community?
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2010, 09:48:41 AM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".

Yes, and in the extreme West of Ukraine (formerly Austro-Hungarian lands) they call themselves Rusyny or Rus'ki. But I, who was born in the capital of Soviet Ukraine and studied in Soviet Ukrainian schools, can easily understand their language. Moreover, my school curricula in Ukrainian literature included works by three authors-Rusyns who wrote in the 1820-s and who were known to their contemporaries as "Rus'ka Trijcya" (Russian/Rusyn Trinity): Markiyan Shashkevych, Jakiv Holovats'kyj and Ivan Vahylevych. I also read, during my secondary school years, many novels by Yosyf Yuriy Fed'kovych and Valyl' Stefanyk. There is no way in the world to identify these wonderful, beautiful pieces of prose written in a language that is not Ukrainian!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazychie

Comprehesnibility isn't determinative.  Italians from the toe to the hilt of the boot can't understand each other, yet both claim to speak Italian dialect.  I can't understand a word of Morrocan Arabic.  Chinese speakers can understand each other if they speak Mandarin, otherwise their Chinese are mutually unintelligible.  Conversely, Scandinavian speakers (Germanic, not Suomi or Finns) can understand each other speaking their own language: Norwegian is actually the "Iazychie" of Danish.  The Plattdeutsch dialects of Northern Germany are a different language branch, but they are seen as dialects of Hochdeutsch.  Then there are the Croats and Serbs, and Hindis and Urdu speakers, who claim to speak different languages.  Languages, like nationalities and ethnicities, are imagined communities.

On Romania, I knew a Romania, or former Romanian I should say, who became Carpatho-Russian.  He had no slavic ancestery, was married to a Romanian, was not from Bucovina.  Ironically, his name was "Dacian" the name of the pre-Slavic (and pre-Roman) people.  He couldn't speak the language.  He just went to a Ruthenian Church and declared himself Ruthenian.

So what defines a community?

Communities, especially as understood in cultural anthropology, are largely self-defined, although there often is an influential force outside of any given community that assists in shaping the boundaries of that community.
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2010, 10:06:15 AM »

Languages, like nationalities and ethnicities, are imagined communities.

But even according to Anderson and other theorists -- whose work, by the way, is finally being challenged on several fronts -- just because a community is imagined doesn't mean that it doesn't have real currency in the minds and actions of its constituents. Actually, that's kind of the point!
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2010, 10:47:37 AM »

In Romania, the Ruthenians of Maramures and northern Transylvania tend to be Greek-Catholic, while the "Hutsuli" of Bucovina are Orthodox.
The Ruthenians go by different names "ruteni", "rusi", "rusnaci" or even "ucrainieni".

Yes, and in the extreme West of Ukraine (formerly Austro-Hungarian lands) they call themselves Rusyny or Rus'ki. But I, who was born in the capital of Soviet Ukraine and studied in Soviet Ukrainian schools, can easily understand their language. Moreover, my school curricula in Ukrainian literature included works by three authors-Rusyns who wrote in the 1820-s and who were known to their contemporaries as "Rus'ka Trijcya" (Russian/Rusyn Trinity): Markiyan Shashkevych, Jakiv Holovats'kyj and Ivan Vahylevych. I also read, during my secondary school years, many novels by Yosyf Yuriy Fed'kovych and Valyl' Stefanyk. There is no way in the world to identify these wonderful, beautiful pieces of prose written in a language that is not Ukrainian!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazychie

Comprehesnibility isn't determinative.  Italians from the toe to the hilt of the boot can't understand each other, yet both claim to speak Italian dialect.  I can't understand a word of Morrocan Arabic.  Chinese speakers can understand each other if they speak Mandarin, otherwise their Chinese are mutually unintelligible.  Conversely, Scandinavian speakers (Germanic, not Suomi or Finns) can understand each other speaking their own language: Norwegian is actually the "Iazychie" of Danish.  The Plattdeutsch dialects of Northern Germany are a different language branch, but they are seen as dialects of Hochdeutsch.  Then there are the Croats and Serbs, and Hindis and Urdu speakers, who claim to speak different languages.  Languages, like nationalities and ethnicities, are imagined communities.

On Romania, I knew a Romania, or former Romanian I should say, who became Carpatho-Russian.  He had no slavic ancestery, was married to a Romanian, was not from Bucovina.  Ironically, his name was "Dacian" the name of the pre-Slavic (and pre-Roman) people.  He couldn't speak the language.  He just went to a Ruthenian Church and declared himself Ruthenian.

So what defines a community?

Depends on the community. Which is much of Anderson's point.
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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2010, 11:00:26 AM »

The self definition of a community is evidenced by the number of 'gold domes' and three-bar crosses that one sees almost side-by-side in any PA coal town for example. They may have shared the same menu, sang the same songs of joy, mourned with the same hymns yet insisted till their dying days that they were not this or not that. Within the Rusyns, Lemkos and others, the self-identification within the community has much to do with the then-current geopolitical situation in the old world at the time of immigration to the United States.
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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2010, 04:55:41 PM »

The self definition of a community is evidenced by the number of 'gold domes' and three-bar crosses that one sees almost side-by-side in any PA coal town for example. They may have shared the same menu, sang the same songs of joy, mourned with the same hymns yet insisted till their dying days that they were not this or not that. Within the Rusyns, Lemkos and others, the self-identification within the community has much to do with the then-current geopolitical situation in the old world at the time of immigration to the United States.

Yea, take away PA and ACROD loses like 1/2 of its population and parishes.

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« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2010, 05:37:05 PM »

The self definition of a community is evidenced by the number of 'gold domes' and three-bar crosses that one sees almost side-by-side in any PA coal town for example. They may have shared the same menu, sang the same songs of joy, mourned with the same hymns yet insisted till their dying days that they were not this or not that. Within the Rusyns, Lemkos and others, the self-identification within the community has much to do with the then-current geopolitical situation in the old world at the time of immigration to the United States.

Yea, take away PA and ACROD loses like 1/2 of its population and parishes.

-Nick

It is not at all uncommon to drive through a town and see a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, an OCA Church, a Ukrainian Orthodox Church, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and a Byzantine Catholic Church and in some cases a ROCOR parish as well. The one thing they have in common is that the parishioners are neighbors and they are all related to each other!
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« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2010, 09:56:02 PM »

"My friend, every one that is of high mind has one Country, the Heavenly Jerusalem, in which we store up our Citizenship. All have one family— if you look at what is here below the dust— or if you look higher, that Inbreathing of which we are partakers, and which we were bidden to keep, and with which I must stand before my Judge to give an account of my heavenly nobility, and of the Divine Image. Everyone then is noble who has guarded this through virtue and consent to his Archetype. On the other hand, everyone is ignoble who has mingled with evil, and put upon himself another form, that of the serpent. And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration 33
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