Author Topic: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?  (Read 8332 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2013, 03:53:57 PM »
Personally , I think the Church should recognize more Saints who come from the families.  Being good parents are not a easy job. It is difficult to cultivate a son or daugher who can follow God wholeheartly as well. Many prophets or Kings in Old Testament, like David, Samual,Gideon,etc failed to do so as well.

Thus, the Church should canonize more Saints from the families. The Christians can then have the models to follow and learn how to be good parents and cultivate their own sons.


The problem is that most righteous are not known about widely. That makes glorifications of such people rare.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2013, 06:35:02 PM »
Personally , I think the Church should recognize more Saints who come from the families.  Being good parents are not a easy job. It is difficult to cultivate a son or daugher who can follow God wholeheartly as well. Many prophets or Kings in Old Testament, like David, Samual,Gideon,etc failed to do so as well.

Thus, the Church should canonize more Saints from the families. The Christians can then have the models to follow and learn how to be good parents and cultivate their own sons.


I really think the notion that saints are models is limited in efficacy. If one is a nuclear physicist, does one need a saint who is also a nuclear physicist to have some sort of example to follow? Perhaps, if we had no communion with the saints. But, in the Orthodox Church, we do have communion with the saints. We have relationships with them. This is critical for our spiritual life. It doesn't matter what mode of life we're in and what mode of life the saints had in this earthly life. There simply are no boundaries of operation and understanding in the realm of the saints. The Holy Hieromartyr Mitrophan of China can be close to a kindergarten teacher in Rhode Island who is not even Chinese--and may never even have heard of St. Mitrophan, for that matter.

Pious married people with families love and venerate monastic saints. Hermits and monastics venerate married saints who had families.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2013, 06:38:19 PM »
Personally , I think the Church should recognize more Saints who come from the families.  Being good parents are not a easy job. It is difficult to cultivate a son or daugher who can follow God wholeheartly as well. Many prophets or Kings in Old Testament, like David, Samual,Gideon,etc failed to do so as well.

Thus, the Church should canonize more Saints from the families. The Christians can then have the models to follow and learn how to be good parents and cultivate their own sons.


The problem is that most righteous are not known about widely. That makes glorifications of such people rare.

This is true. Many holy people who have even worked miracles through prayer are otherwise known as "Grandma." They're known in the family, but often no one realizes their sanctity. Likewise, there are many obscure monastic saints whose names and lives we don't even know--so they don't make it on the calendar either. But all of them are saints. All are with God. All are commemorated on All Saints Day, at least. And I'm sure none of them are sitting around doing nothing because no one on earth knows who they are.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2013, 08:27:07 PM »
Personally , I think the Church should recognize more Saints who come from the families.  Being good parents are not a easy job. It is difficult to cultivate a son or daugher who can follow God wholeheartly as well. Many prophets or Kings in Old Testament, like David, Samual,Gideon,etc failed to do so as well.

Thus, the Church should canonize more Saints from the families. The Christians can then have the models to follow and learn how to be good parents and cultivate their own sons.


The problem is that most righteous are not known about widely. That makes glorifications of such people rare.

Such righteous faithful have a always done much "unseen" work in their lives which has helped protect and preserve the Faith. That they are known by God is a certainty. Given all of the clerical/political intrigue over the centuries,  the church surely needed their simple counterbalance.

Offline domNoah

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2013, 09:06:14 PM »
There are a lot of Saints I can think of in Catholicism that come from Families that had children.

St Rita, St Monica, St Frances of Rome, St Nicholas Von Flue, Blessed Anna Marie Taigi, St Louis, Blessed Louis and Zellie.

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Offline Malina

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2013, 05:00:08 AM »
In my opinion it`s difficult to be a monk outside the world, but also it`s not easy way to be marriage and to follow to Orthodoxy way of life in this world. Of course with God`s help it`s possible to obtain holiness in this world.

Offline quietmorning

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2013, 12:23:40 PM »
If you look at a battle field, there are many many 'unknown soldiers'. 

When you look at the memorial services, it is the 'unknown soldier' that receives the most glory. 

There are many many many unknown soldiers in our Father's house.  :) 

I wouldn't worry about it one way or the other.  It is by Him, in Him, and through Him that we can even take a breath, much less, become a saint.  And in that, there is massive hope, because NOTHING is impossible for Him.

So if you are in the world and want to become a Saint - then ask Him, but be prepared to be unknown. . . :) Look for the greater thing.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2013, 01:26:54 AM »
I dont have much of an opinion on this. I would just say, most saints are not known and die unknown to most and are never reconginzed. That is what i would say. at least my opinion.


But I can say for certain, that becoming a saint whilst using this forum is actually impossible. :)
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Offline OrthoFaith

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2013, 08:38:17 PM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Prove it. Btw, are you just going to reject Christ's own words?

Christ also blessed the marriage in Cana, as the Orthodox marriage service proclaims.

Hi everyone. I noticed that this thread hasn't really seen any action in the last several months, but after reading through, I think that this question went unresolved. I've only just started to read up on Early Fathers and Saints of the Church. But I thought I'd share this supposed story of Anba Bishoy in which he had a dream about St. Constantine:

In one of those visions Emperor Constantine said, "Had I known how great is the honor of monks, I would have abandoned my kingdom and became a monk." St. Bishoy told him, "You have banished the heathen worship and exalted Christianity, and has not Christ given you anything?" Emperor Constantine answered him, "The Lord has given me many gifts, but none of them is like the honor of the monks."
Source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Bishoy

If this legend is true, doesn't it suggest that there are relative levels of sainthood and holiness? And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world? It's too bad Asteriktos isn't around anymore to contribute...

 

Offline mike

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2013, 02:50:01 AM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2013, 03:08:52 AM »
KMathai, I would be extremely cautious about placing too much importance on one story of many, because it is also recorded in the sayings of the Desert Fathers that "It was revealed to Abba Anthony in the desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels." (Benedict Ward [trans.], 1975:6).

How can one be definitely better than the other if this man and St. Anthony were equal? It seems just as possible that St. Bishoy's dream is retold to extol the virtue of the monastic life in showing that even an emperor would renounce his throne for it, not to diminish the non-monastic life. Constantine is also commemorated in the Church (his departure is commemorated in the Synaxarium on Baramhat 28), despite never having become a monk himself. 

Offline Romaios

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Offline William

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2013, 10:55:39 PM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.

Isn't that because most of your opinions on Orthodoxy are highly idiosyncratic?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2013, 11:34:25 PM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.

Isn't that because most of your opinions on Orthodoxy are highly idiosyncratic?

Marriage is blessed by the Church through her liturgical tradition. The first miracle performed by Christ was at a wedding. The hymns and prayers of the betrothal and crowning ceremonies clearly show that marriage is in no way inferior to monastic life.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2013, 02:00:37 AM »
Even though its lyrics are probably about the Buddha, Atlas Sound's "Quick Canal" haunting chorus (sung by Laetita Sadier) always resonated with me regarding this subject:

Quote
I thought saints were once saints,
I looked in the dirt,
Found wisdom is learned,
Wisdom is learned,
Taken through a costly process
of success and failure

It can't compete with the Fathers, and I know this thread is mostly about married saints. Still, I just wanted to share...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 02:00:50 AM by lovesupreme »

Offline vorgos

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2013, 10:02:31 AM »
A little story about St Anthony would suggest it is possible to be a saint in the world...

24. It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.

PS: The version I read did not mention a doctor but a wife. Either way the message is the same...

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2013, 11:42:14 PM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.

Isn't that because most of your opinions on Orthodoxy are highly idiosyncratic?

Marriage is blessed by the Church through her liturgical tradition. The first miracle performed by Christ was at a wedding. The hymns and prayers of the betrothal and crowning ceremonies clearly show that marriage is in no way inferior to monastic life.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but my impression is definitely that, after excluding martyrs, the bulk of our commemorated saints have been monastics.

Has anyone done a tally of married saints?

Offline Maria

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2013, 11:53:24 PM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.

Isn't that because most of your opinions on Orthodoxy are highly idiosyncratic?

Marriage is blessed by the Church through her liturgical tradition. The first miracle performed by Christ was at a wedding. The hymns and prayers of the betrothal and crowning ceremonies clearly show that marriage is in no way inferior to monastic life.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but my impression is definitely that, after excluding martyrs, the bulk of our commemorated saints have been monastics.

Has anyone done a tally of married saints?

I have read about some tallies. Few married Orthodox Christians have been canonized. However, there are many married people who are among the martyrs.

I guess we will be surprised if and when we are allowed to pass those pearly gates as there are many humble saints who are not commemorated.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2013, 12:11:04 AM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.

Isn't that because most of your opinions on Orthodoxy are highly idiosyncratic?

Marriage is blessed by the Church through her liturgical tradition. The first miracle performed by Christ was at a wedding. The hymns and prayers of the betrothal and crowning ceremonies clearly show that marriage is in no way inferior to monastic life.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but my impression is definitely that, after excluding martyrs, the bulk of our commemorated saints have been monastics.

Has anyone done a tally of married saints?


Get yourself a comprehensive church calendar or synaxarion, and go through it.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2013, 12:16:20 AM »
And furthermore, doesn't it also suggest that monasticism is definitively superior to living an Orthodox Christian life within the world?

It suggest. Not that I see any reason to agree with that suggestion.

Isn't that because most of your opinions on Orthodoxy are highly idiosyncratic?

Marriage is blessed by the Church through her liturgical tradition. The first miracle performed by Christ was at a wedding. The hymns and prayers of the betrothal and crowning ceremonies clearly show that marriage is in no way inferior to monastic life.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but my impression is definitely that, after excluding martyrs, the bulk of our commemorated saints have been monastics.

Has anyone done a tally of married saints?


Get yourself a comprehensive church calendar or synaxarion, and go through it.

You start off with some of the big ones:

Mary
Joseph
Peter
and pretty much all the early Christians except Paul and other men with "thorns in their flesh".
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