Author Topic: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?  (Read 6959 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2013, 03:52:44 PM »
Nothing is possible without God.

Weren't you going on about Kierkegaard lately?

You should really take him seriously:

Without nothing God is not possible.
Lol.

My OP is tongue and cheek.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2013, 08:14:57 PM »
Nothing is possible without God.

Weren't you going on about Kierkegaard lately?

You should really take him seriously:

Without nothing God is not possible.
Lol.

My OP is tongue and cheek.

Tongue AND cheek?  ???  Does that mean something??
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2013, 10:57:09 PM »
The way the world is going right now, we'll have plenty of opportunities in the near future to be martyred.

Why wait?  We could just hop on a plane to Afghanistan or Pakistan or Pick-Your-Own-istan with some crosses, a few Bibles and start evangelizing.  I think we would find ourselves martyred pdq.  ::)  So, no, becoming a Saint in the world is not nearly impossible.  It is, in fact, quite possible and probably quite easy--we have to but want it enough. ;)

One shouldn't seek to be martyred for martyrdom's sake though.

Suicide by purposely trying to get martyred....  ::)
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Offline ironchapman

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2013, 04:36:51 AM »
A good book...



FWIW, one of my favorite patristic writings:

St. John Chrysostom's Homily XX on Ephesians. A really moving description of marriage (or at least I found it so).
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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2013, 08:35:05 AM »
St. John Chrysostom's Homily XX on Ephesians. A really moving description of marriage (or at least I found it so).

I very much agree  :)  Homily 12 on Colossians is another good one...
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Offline Malina

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2013, 10:17:18 AM »
I saw one monk, who compared world with hell in figurative sense, and he said: “it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.
We all have chances for better future and holy life; we have to use every opportunity for that.
Although our life full of dark temptations (visible and invisible) all things are possible with God`s help.
We have to prolong obtaining good deals and exclude dark side out of our life as much as we could, and also avoid cowardice in desperate situation.

Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2013, 05:11:22 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.
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Offline biro

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2013, 05:16:48 PM »
I imagine that in the ancient world, there weren't many unmarried laypeople. They had arranged marriages and so forth.

Here in today, we mostly don't. So, not to be all creepy and paranoid, but there is hope for us single folks, huh?  :-\ (as far as not going to Heck)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:17:08 PM by biro »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2013, 05:21:52 PM »
I imagine that in the ancient world, there weren't many unmarried laypeople. They had arranged marriages and so forth.

Here in today, we mostly don't. So, not to be all creepy and paranoid, but there is hope for us single folks, huh?  :-\ (as far as not going to Heck)

There are many ancient saints (male and female) who were neither married nor monastic when they met their earthly ends.
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Offline biro

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2013, 05:45:14 PM »
Whew.  :)
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2013, 06:08:26 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

+1
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2013, 08:45:44 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

I would only add that any such monk has succumbed to the sin of pride and is dangerously wrapped up in his own hubris.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:46:06 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2013, 09:45:07 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

I would only add that any such monk has succumbed to the sin of pride and is dangerously wrapped up in his own hubris.

Wasn't the idea of the superiority of celibacy and the denigration of marriage and worldly life declared a heresy pretty early on?
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2013, 09:49:42 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2013, 09:56:55 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.

I think there's a distinction to be made between the what the monk noted here supposedly said and what many people call "monastic supremacy."

Anyway, there really isn't a difference between what monastics are called to do and what married and single people in the world are called to do. Christ has the same commandments.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2013, 10:05:02 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.

I think there's a distinction to be made between the what the monk noted here supposedly said and what many people call "monastic supremacy."

Anyway, there really isn't a difference between what monastics are called to do and what married and single people in the world are called to do. Christ has the same commandments.

The trouble is that this monk, if he's been quoted correctly, has stated that only the monastic life leads to sanctity, defying a great chunk of Orthodox tradition.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2013, 10:05:30 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.
 
It's not that prevalent except in the minds of certain publicity seeking "monks" who act, if not live, outside the norms of true Eastern monasticism and overly zealous lay folk looking for a purer and even purer "(o)rthodoxy" .

Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2013, 10:06:49 PM »
It's not that prevalent except in the minds of certain publicity seeking "monks" who act, if not live, outside the norms of true Eastern monasticism and overly zealous lay folk looking for a purer and even purer "(o)rthodoxy" .

Couldn't agree more.  :-*
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2013, 10:08:03 PM »
+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.
 
It's not that prevalent except in the minds of certain publicity seeking "monks" who act, if not live, outside the norms of true Eastern monasticism and overly zealous lay folk looking for a purer and even purer "(o)rthodoxy" .

That's good to hear. I just hate the impression that married layfolk are limited to the grace of a peanut compared to the oceans of grace that monastics can receive.

Offline WPM

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2013, 10:19:35 PM »
Dedication to years of faithful service is one example.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 10:20:26 PM by WPM »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2013, 10:25:18 PM »
+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.
 
It's not that prevalent except in the minds of certain publicity seeking "monks" who act, if not live, outside the norms of true Eastern monasticism and overly zealous lay folk looking for a purer and even purer "(o)rthodoxy" .

That's good to hear. I just hate the impression that married layfolk are limited to the grace of a peanut compared to the oceans of grace that monastics can receive.

The sacraments are the same. The grace of God is the same. Only the mode of life differs, and then sometimes not all that much, depending.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2013, 10:30:54 PM »
+1

I must say I find this sort of "monastic supremacy" a bit offensive, and I dislike how prevalent it seems to be at times.
 
It's not that prevalent except in the minds of certain publicity seeking "monks" who act, if not live, outside the norms of true Eastern monasticism and overly zealous lay folk looking for a purer and even purer "(o)rthodoxy" .

That's good to hear. I just hate the impression that married layfolk are limited to the grace of a peanut compared to the oceans of grace that monastics can receive.

This.

The sacraments are the same. The grace of God is the same. Only the mode of life differs, and then sometimes not all that much, depending.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2013, 11:14:18 PM »
Quote
“it`s impossible to be saved in the world and only monastic life could lead to sanctity”. Of course we all look on situation from our own site but I cannot agree with this statement totally.

This monk is very, very seriously mistaken. Salvation is indeed possible to those living "in the world", as shown by the multitude of single and married laymen who have been proclaimed as saints. The Orthodox wedding service also has much to say about marriage and its part in the salvation of the couple.

I would only add that any such monk has succumbed to the sin of pride and is dangerously wrapped up in his own hubris.

Wasn't the idea of the superiority of celibacy and the denigration of marriage and worldly life declared a heresy pretty early on?

Most early Church Fathers I've read thought monasticism superior. That everyone needs to quote the same 2 passages in St. John Chrysostom to find an example of a Father who didn't think this is telling. Now, at Gangra (and in general) marriage was defended, and these canons were ecumenicalized at Trullo. As for marriage vs. monasticism, it all depends on where the line is drawn. At the risk of oversimplifying, there are three general positions:

1) Monasticism is superior or mandatory; marriage and sex are evil or to be denigrated. This is heresy.
2) Monasticism is superior; marriage, while inferior, is nonetheless a sacrament and perfectly acceptable. This was the position of most of the Fathers I've read.
3) Monasticism and marriage are equal if different paths to salvation. This is the position of most modern Orthodox.


EDITED--I deleted something to reflect more accurately what was being responded to.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:17:40 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2013, 11:16:41 PM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2013, 12:26:57 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

I think it may be superior in a relative sense, but not an absolute sense.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2013, 12:53:27 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.
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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2013, 12:57:14 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Got some early Church Fathers quotes other than from St. John Chrysostom backing that up?
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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2013, 01:00:03 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Got some early Church Fathers quotes other than from St. John Chrysostom backing that up?

I don't need quotes from early Fathers to back my case. Iconography and hymnography, the clearest and most accessible source of the consensus patrum, amply support what I have stated.
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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2013, 01:02:01 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Got some early Church Fathers quotes other than from St. John Chrysostom backing that up?

I don't need quotes from early Fathers to back my case. Iconography and hymnography, the clearest and most accessible source of the consensus patrum, amply support what I have stated.

Then quote some iconography and hymnography from the early Church showing that it wasn't a later development/interpretation.
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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2013, 01:13:50 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Got some early Church Fathers quotes other than from St. John Chrysostom backing that up?

I don't need quotes from early Fathers to back my case. Iconography and hymnography, the clearest and most accessible source of the consensus patrum, amply support what I have stated.

Then quote some iconography and hymnography from the early Church showing that it wasn't a later development/interpretation.

Do not all saints bear haloes in their icons? Or do you have a secret decoder ring which allows you to rank the saints in holiness?
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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2013, 01:17:39 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Got some early Church Fathers quotes other than from St. John Chrysostom backing that up?

I don't need quotes from early Fathers to back my case. Iconography and hymnography, the clearest and most accessible source of the consensus patrum, amply support what I have stated.

Then quote some iconography and hymnography from the early Church showing that it wasn't a later development/interpretation.

Do not all saints bear haloes in their icons? Or do you have a secret decoder ring which allows you to rank the saints in holiness?

Quote some iconography and hymnography from the early Church showing that it wasn't a later development/interpretation.
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2013, 01:22:11 AM »
Answer this, Asteriktos.


Do not all saints bear haloes in their icons? Or do you have a secret decoder ring which allows you to rank the saints in holiness?

And get hold of a Menaion and a decent prayerbook, and see what comes up.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:23:53 AM by LBK »
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Offline William

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2013, 01:29:32 AM »
I've read that monasticism is the higher calling but it's easier to be damned as a monk because of things like pride.

There's also the view I've seen in Dostoevsky that monasticism is not for extra-holy people but for those who are even more sinful than usual, which is why they need such a rigorous lifestyle. I'm not sure I can see people like St. Seraphim of Sarov being extra-sinful if they lived in the world, though.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2013, 01:46:48 AM »
St. Methodia of Kimolos was canonized.  She wanted to be a monastic, but her parents wanted her to marry, and so in order to not sadden them, she married a seaman.   



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Even though united in marriage, her zeal and warm love for the heavenly bridegroom Christ was by no means weakened.  The divine love continued to burn within her soul intensely, and she continued to lead the same life as before -- as far as possible -- warmly entreating the Lord to deem her worthy of that which she longed for and to devote herself entirely to Him, in the manner in which His grace should deign.  For she trusted all things to the will of God.  And the Lord fulfills "the desires of those who fear Him (Psalm 144.19)  according to the King Prophet David.  So blessed Methodia led a life of sobriety according to the Gospel, and submitter with her whole soul and mind to the Divine will. 

Her husband, having suffered shipwreck during one of his voyages near the shores of Asia Minor, did not return to Kimolos.  Having lost her husband and had been freed of all cares, the Saint now decided to fulfill her first desire and devote herself entirely to God, renouncing the world and all the things of the world.


At the introduction, Constantin Cavarnos adds:  There are certain women of manly spirit, to whom God apportioned labors equal to those of men, lest any should pretend that women are too feeble to practice virtue perfectly.  Palladius, The Lausiac History.


So, still the monasticism gave her the opportunity to greatly advance in spiritual life. 

 Cavarnos, Constantine.  St. Methodia of Kimolos: Remarkable ascetic, Teacher of Virtue, Counselor, Comforter and Healer (1865-1908).  An account of her Life, Character, Miracles and Influence, together with selected hymns from the Akolouthia in honor of her, and a Letter to her sister Anna. Modern Orthodox Saints vol. 9 Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, Belmont, MA USA 2001

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2013, 01:57:19 AM »
From the sayings of Abba Antony the Great, the father of all monks, as recorded in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (Benedicta Ward, trans.):

'It was revealed to Abba Antony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.'

This seems to clearly demonstrate that being a saint is not a matter of where you live, but how you live.


Offline Romaios

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2013, 01:58:07 AM »
Got some early Church Fathers quotes other than from St. John Chrysostom backing that up?

St. Amphilochius is your man! He was the champion of marriage against the Encratites:

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Ὁ δὲ τίμιος γάμος ὑπέρκειται παντὸς δώρου γηΐνου, ὡς ἔγκαρπον δένδρον, ὡς ἀστεῖον φυτόν, ὡς ῥίζα τῆς παρθενίας, ὡς γεωργὸς τῶν λογικῶν καὶ ἔμψυχων κλάδων, ὡς εὐλογία τῆς τοῦ κόσμου αὐξήσεως, ὡς παρήγορος τοῦ γένους, ὡς δημιουργὸς τῆς ἀνθρωπότητος, ὡς τῆς θεϊκῆς εἰκόνος ζωγράφος, ὡς τὸν Δεσπότην εὐλογοῦντα κεκτημένος, ὡς πάντα τὸν κόσμον φέρειν δεχόμενος, ὡς ἐκείνῳ πολιτευόμενος, ὃν καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαι ἐδυσώπησεν, ὡς δυνάμενος λέγειν μετὰ παῤῥησίας. Ἰδοῦ, ἐγὼ καὶ τὰ παιδία, ἅ μοι ἔδωκεν ό θεός.

Holy marriage, chosen gift exalted above all earthly gifts!

Tree laden with fruit, noble scion sprung from virgin life [noble plant, root of virginity], abode of the burgeoning soul [cultivator of reasonable and animated branches], bond of blessing for the increase of the human race!

Sweet comfort of our race, creator of humanity and maker of images of God!

Marriage receives the blessing of the Lord. Like a mother it carries the whole world in itself. Marriage can hold its head high and say freely to everyone, all who have life because of it: "Here I am with the children God has given me!"

St. Amphilochius of Iconium, Orations 2, 1 (PG 39, 45)


*The English translation is only a paraphrase. I picked it up from Fr. Thomas Spidlik's Patristic Breviary.
 

This also comes to mind:

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They (Christians) marry, as do all others; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven.

Epistle to Diognetus
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 02:26:52 AM by Romaios »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2013, 02:17:23 AM »
From the sayings of Abba Antony the Great, the father of all monks, as recorded in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (Benedicta Ward, trans.):

'It was revealed to Abba Antony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.'

This seems to clearly demonstrate that being a saint is not a matter of where you live, but how you live.



Yes, that seems right, like Liza said above.  I remember one of the first homilies I ever heard: you are all called to be saints, the priest told us.

Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2013, 02:20:17 AM »
you are all called to be saints.

THIS!!
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2013, 02:21:47 AM »
Marriage is definitely one way to work out one's salvation, and we are always reminded that we don't know who all the saints are, just some of them.  Seems like there was a housewife who was canonized over in Russia.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2013, 02:38:24 AM »
Also Tertullian, Ad uxorem II, 8:

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Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of (to heaven), which the Father holds for ratified? For even on earth children do not rightly and lawfully wed without their fathers' consent. What kind of yoke is that of two believers, partakers of one hope, one desire, one discipline, one and the same service? Both are brethren, both fellow servants, no difference of spirit or of flesh; nay, they are truly "two in one flesh." Where the flesh is one, one is the spirit too. Together they pray, together prostrate themselves, together perform their fasts; mutually teaching, mutually exhorting, mutually sustaining. Equally are they both found in the Church of God; equally at the banquet of God; equally in straits, in persecutions, in refreshments. Neither hides (ought) from the other; neither shuns the other; neither is troublesome to the other. The sick is visited, the indigent relieved, with freedom. Alms are given without danger of ensuing torment; sacrifices attended without scruple; daily diligence discharged without impediment: there is no stealthy signing, no trembling greeting, no mute benediction. Between the two echo psalms and hymns; and they mutually challenge each other which shall better chant to their Lord. Such things when Christ sees and hears, He joys. To these He sends His own I peace. Where two are, there withal is He Himself. Where He is, there the Evil One is not.

Source

Offline JamesR

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2013, 03:27:16 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Prove it. Btw, are you just going to reject Christ's own words?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2013, 03:34:32 AM »
How could someone honestly deny that monasticism is superior? Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that it is a HIGHER calling when speaking about eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.

The fact that all saints, married, single celibate, or monastic, are regarded by the Church as equally holy, is proof enough that there is no "hierarchy of sanctity". Saints is saints, period, and this has been the case all along. A look at the iconography and hymnography of any of these saints confirms this.

It is not a "modern" phenomenon, as Asteriktos seems to suggest.

Prove it. Btw, are you just going to reject Christ's own words?

Christ also blessed the marriage in Cana, as the Orthodox marriage service proclaims.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2013, 12:15:22 PM »
Like much in Orthodoxy, it's a both and, not an either or thing. If you absolutize in this area, you'll end up in heresyville.

It is common in Orthodox literature for monastics speaking to monastics to laud monasticism not over marriage, per se, but over living in the world as opposed to the monastery. The reasons why are obvious, I think.

It is common for monastics speaking to married people to bless and encourage marriage. Fr. John Krestiankin received many letters from married people wanting to be monastics and he gave them what for, telling to them how important it was for them to stay married and be saved in that path.

All other questions about the virtues of virginity over child bearing can be referred to the Mother of God.
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Offline walter1234

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2013, 01:32:09 PM »
Personally , I think the Church should recognize more Saints who come from the families.  Being good parents are not a easy job. It is difficult to cultivate a son or daugher who can follow God wholeheartly as well. Many prophets or Kings in Old Testament, like David, Samual,Gideon,etc failed to do so as well.

Thus, the Church should canonize more Saints from the families. The Christians can then have the models to follow and learn how to be good parents and cultivate their own sons.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:36:19 PM by walter1234 »

Offline choy

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Re: Is becoming a Saint in the world nearly impossible?
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2013, 01:51:15 PM »
Personally , I think the Church should recognize more Saints who come from the families.  Being good parents are not a easy job. It is difficult to cultivate a son or daugher who can follow God wholeheartly as well. Many prophets or Kings in Old Testament, like David, Samual,Gideon,etc failed to do so as well.

Thus, the Church should canonize more Saints from the families. The Christians can then have the models to follow and learn how to be good parents and cultivate their own sons.


I agree.  Hopefully we can find married men and women who has proclaimed the Gospel through their lives.