Author Topic: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?  (Read 10625 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2009, 05:02:27 AM »

Visitors to St. Mark’s in Venice will recall that in the mosaics depicting the story of Genesis 1, the face of God the Creator bears unmistakably the lineaments of Christ. In the same way, when Isaiah sees God enthroned in the temple, “high and lifted up” (Isaiah 6:1), and when Ezekiel sees in the midst of the wheels and of the four living creatures “something that seemed like a human form” (Ezekiel 1:26), it is Christ the Logos Whom they both behold.[/i]

http://incommunion.org/?p=252

Yes, this is one opinion,but it is not the consensus of the holy Fathers.


The Seventh Ecumenical Council:

"Eternal be the memory of those who know and accept
and believe the visions of the prophets as the Divinity
Himself shaped and impressed them, whatever the chorus
of the prophets saw and narrated, and who hold to the written
and unwritten tradition of the Apostles which was passed on
to the Fathers, and on account of this make icons of the Holy
things and honour them."

"Anathema to those who do not accept the visions of the prophets
and who reject the iconographies which have been seen by them
(O wonder!) even before the Incarnation of the Word, but either
speak empty words about having seen the unattainable and unseen
Essence, or on the one hand pay heed to those who have seen these appearances of icons, types and forms of the truth, while on the other hand they cannot bear to have icons made of the Word become man and His sufferings on our behalf."


St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, in his prolegomena to the Seventh Ecumenical Council, sums up the Council's decrees on this subject as follows:

"The present Council, in the letter which it sent to the Church
of Alexandria, on the one hand blesses those who know and
accept, and therefore make icons of and honour, the visions
and theophanies of the Prophets, as God Himself shaped and
impressed them on their minds. And on the other hand it
anathematizes those who do not accept the iconographies
of such visions before the incarnation of God the Word.
It follows that the Beginningless Father must be represented
in icons as He appeared to the Prophet Daniel, as the Ancient of Days."


NB: It follows that the Beginningless Father must be represented in icons as He appeared to the Prophet Daniel, as the Ancient of Days."

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2009, 05:08:48 AM »

Visitors to St. Mark’s in Venice will recall that in the mosaics depicting the story of Genesis 1, the face of God the Creator bears unmistakably the lineaments of Christ. In the same way, when Isaiah sees God enthroned in the temple, “high and lifted up” (Isaiah 6:1), and when Ezekiel sees in the midst of the wheels and of the four living creatures “something that seemed like a human form” (Ezekiel 1:26), it is Christ the Logos Whom they both behold.[/i]

http://incommunion.org/?p=252


Sorry, I somehow lost the rest of the message.   Here is the teaching of some of the holy Fathers.


"The term "Ancient of Days", like "God", is applicable to all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

"Therefore there is no contradiction between allowing that Christ can be called "the Ancient of Days", as in the hymnology for the Feast of the Meeting of the Lord, and believing that "the Ancient of Days" in the vision of Daniel is God the Father.

Hieromartyr Hippolytus of Rome (P.G. 10, 37)
St. Athanasius the Great (V.E.P. 35, 121)
St. John Chrysostom (P.G. 57, 133; E.P.E. 8, 640-2)
St. Gregory Palamas (Homilies 14, E.P.E. 9, 390)
St. Cyril of Alexandria (P.G. 70, 1461)
St. Symeon of Thessalonica (Interpretation of the Sacred Symbol, p. 412)
St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite (The Rudder, Zakynthos, 1864, p. 320; Chicago, 1957, p. 420)

"All the Saints above agree in identifying “the Ancient of Days” in the vision of Daniel with God the Father.

"They interpret the vision as portraying the Ascension of Christ ("the Son of Man") to God the Father ("the Ancient of Days"), from Whom He receives the Kingdom and the Glory, together with the power to judge the living and the dead. Thus St. Cyril of Alexandria writes: “Behold, again Emmanuel is manifestly and clearly seen ascending to God the Father in heaven… The Son of Man has appeared in the flesh and reached the Ancient of Days, that is, He has ascended to the throne of His eternal Father and has been given honor and worship…”
(Letter 55, in The Fathers of the Church, vol. 77, Washington: CUA Press, 1987, pp. 28, 29)."

Source: Vladimir Moss, "The Icon of the Holy Trinity"


Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2009, 11:50:52 AM »
But I think you may be accusing me of heresy for not believing in the pre-incarnate Christ
What makes you think that?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2009, 04:14:00 PM »
I don't know if this thought is useful:

Can we say that the Logos, before taking on flesh, was the Christ, the Anointed One?  Or can we only say that Jesus, the Logos after the incarnation, after taking on flesh, was the Anointed One?

If the Logos was the Anointed One before taking on flesh, then one can say "the Pre-Incarnate Christ."  If the Logos was only the Anointed One in the person of Jesus, the incarnate Logos, then no, we cannot speak of the "Pre-Incarnate Christ" since then (by that logic) the Incarnation was necessary for The Christ.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2009, 04:32:42 PM »
I don't know if this thought is useful:

Can we say that the Logos, before taking on flesh, was the Christ, the Anointed One?  Or can we only say that Jesus, the Logos after the incarnation, after taking on flesh, was the Anointed One?

If the Logos was the Anointed One before taking on flesh, then one can say "the Pre-Incarnate Christ."  If the Logos was only the Anointed One in the person of Jesus, the incarnate Logos, then no, we cannot speak of the "Pre-Incarnate Christ" since then (by that logic) the Incarnation was necessary for The Christ.

I think we may safely speak of the concept of "the pre-incarnate Logos" and "the un-incarnate Logos" prior to the Annunciation.

But the concept of the "pre-incarnate Christ" and "the un-incarnate Christ"  - I would rule it out.

If we deal with manifestations in the OT I would postulate that an accurate theology would speak of " the Logos who will become Christ"  but it cannot be, at that period prior to the Annunciation, "the Logos who is Christ."

Are you still engaged in studies at seminary?  Is there someone there to enquire of?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 04:37:54 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2009, 04:37:17 PM »
But I think you may be accusing me of heresy for not believing in the pre-incarnate Christ
What makes you think that?

If things which you have written of Christ are theologically true and I deny them am I not a heretic?

PtA: "Thus, if Christ is the Word of God, then I can truly speak of the pre-incarnate Word of God who revealed the Law to Moses as the pre-incarnate Christ to indicate that the revelation of the Law was truly the work of Jesus Christ before He made Himself incarnate of the Virgin."

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2009, 05:57:05 PM »
But I think you may be accusing me of heresy for not believing in the pre-incarnate Christ
What makes you think that?

If things which you have written of Christ are theologically true and I deny them am I not a heretic?

PtA: "Thus, if Christ is the Word of God, then I can truly speak of the pre-incarnate Word of God who revealed the Law to Moses as the pre-incarnate Christ to indicate that the revelation of the Law was truly the work of Jesus Christ before He made Himself incarnate of the Virgin."
1.  I never on this thread used the words "heretic" or "heresy" to question or criticize beliefs that differ from mine, so you cannot say that I'm accusing you of heresy.  I've only used the words to deny that they apply to me.  If I can criticize you of anything, it's your apparent attempt to twist this argument around to make yourself look like the victim rather than the aggressor.

2.  I'm really not asserting anything as theologically true, nor am I interested in defending the truth of the concept I've tried to put into words, however imprecisely.  All I've tried to do on this thread is defend myself against what I have perceived (wrongly?) to be your allegations that I have espoused heresy.

3.  Obviously, my imprecise use of the phrase "pre-incarnate Christ" to mean what you call the "pre-incarnate Logos" has caused you a lot of undue confusion and consternation, and for this I am sorry and beg your forgiveness.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 05:57:56 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2009, 06:14:14 PM »
But I think you may be accusing me of heresy for not believing in the pre-incarnate Christ
What makes you think that?

If things which you have written of Christ are theologically true and I deny them am I not a heretic?

PtA: "Thus, if Christ is the Word of God, then I can truly speak of the pre-incarnate Word of God who revealed the Law to Moses as the pre-incarnate Christ to indicate that the revelation of the Law was truly the work of Jesus Christ before He made Himself incarnate of the Virgin."
1.  I never on this thread used the words "heretic" or "heresy" to question or criticize beliefs that differ from mine, so you cannot say that I'm accusing you of heresy.  I've only used the words to deny that they apply to me.  If I can criticize you of anything, it's your apparent attempt to twist this argument around to make yourself look like the victim rather than the aggressor.

Not at all my intention.   The only victim here is our Lord Jesus Christ whose ancestry as a Jew has been obliterated in the definition of the pre-incarnate Christ as given in the OP.  In defending Him from anti-semitism I am prepared to come off as somewhat "aggressive."  Denying the Jewishness of Christ is very offensiove to the faithful and should not be advocated on an Orthodox forum by those claiming to be Orthodox.

Quote
2.  I'm really not asserting anything as theologically true, nor am I interested in defending the truth of the concept I've tried to put into words, however imprecisely.  All I've tried to do on this thread is defend myself against what I have perceived (wrongly?) to be your allegations that I have espoused heresy.

I have not made that acccusation.   You have not been accused.

Quote
3.  Obviously, my imprecise use of the phrase "pre-incarnate Christ" to mean what you call the "pre-incarnate Logos" has caused you a lot of undue confusion and consternation, and for this I am sorry and beg your forgiveness.

That is very magnanimous of you and I want to respond in kind.  Please forgive me likewise for any clumsy wording which may have confused and offended you.

Offline Mivac

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Re: The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2010, 08:49:52 AM »
I wonder if someone would please clarify if Bishop's Kallistos' use of the term "pre-incarnate Christ" below, would be considered heretical...

“...the theophanies in the Old Testament are manifestations, not of God the Father — Whom “no one has ever seen” (John 1:18) — but of the pre-incarnate Christ, God the eternal Logos.
http://incommunion.org/?p=252


Is it the Church's Christology that God the Son, God the Logos, is the un-incarnate Jesus Christ?

This cannot be justifed except by postulating that at the generation of the Son and the causation of the Spirit before all time, Jesus Christ was also generated and in some fashion partook of the Hypostasis of the Son.



I apologize for bring this thread back to life, but today I was actually forced to contemplate this very situation.   My question, is the incarnate Christ limited in His movement by time e.g. is it impossible for the incarnate Christ to appear to moses before His incarnation?  

or

Is this one of those mysteries that we cannot understand?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 08:52:35 AM by Mivac »