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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: April 07, 2010, 12:44:20 AM »

A few months ago, I picked up a bible at a antique store that I'm rather in love with.  it fits in my hand, easily readable,it's VERY old.  but, it does have one page torn in half.  I have heard that to dispose of a Bible, you must burn it because it's sacred, and anything else would be a desicration.  is it OK for me to use a "desicrated" bible? 

another question, this bible is the American Standard Version.  it uses the name "Jehovah" instead of God.  now I've had to get used to that.  is there a reason that we don't call God Jehovah?   
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 12:48:36 AM »

"Jehovah" is simply an inaccurate translation of YHWH.
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 12:50:26 AM »

I see.  My Jehovah's Witness friend kept trying to push on me that Jehovah is God's real name, and that we ought to call him by it.

thanks
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 01:05:45 AM »

A few months ago, I picked up a bible at a antique store that I'm rather in love with.  it fits in my hand, easily readable,it's VERY old.  but, it does have one page torn in half.  I have heard that to dispose of a Bible, you must burn it because it's sacred, and anything else would be a desicration.  is it OK for me to use a "desicrated" bible?
Is it still readable, except for the torn page?  Personally, I wouldn't use such a Bible, not because it's been "desecrated" by having a page torn in half,  but because parts of it are missing.  I prefer to have the complete text available to me.
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 01:07:44 AM »

A few months ago, I picked up a bible at a antique store that I'm rather in love with.  it fits in my hand, easily readable,it's VERY old.  but, it does have one page torn in half.  I have heard that to dispose of a Bible, you must burn it because it's sacred, and anything else would be a desicration.  is it OK for me to use a "desicrated" bible?
Is it still readable, except for the torn page?  Personally, I wouldn't use such a Bible, not because it's been "desecrated" by having a page torn in half,  but because parts of it are missing.  I prefer to have the complete text available to me.
yes, all of it is still readable, except for the torn page. I feel like I've rescued a bible that would otherwise end up in the trash. 
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 01:55:51 AM »

Christ is Risen!
Ta Criost eirithe!

 
A few months ago, I picked up a bible at a antique store that I'm rather in love with. 

I think that is great.  I have my old Mum's Douai-Rheim's Bible which I am in love with.   She bought it from a door to door Bible salesman when I was just a boy.

If the missing fragment worries you, just print it out from the Internet and attach it somehow.

Here is the American Standard Version

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/American-Standard-Version-ASV-Bible/#booklist
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 01:11:51 PM »

I see.  My Jehovah's Witness friend kept trying to push on me that Jehovah is God's real name, and that we ought to call him by it.

Yes, and next he'll be telling you to drink the kool-aid. Jehovah's Witnesses are first rate heretics of the worst kind. I would advise you to ignore most things that he says on spiritual matters, and as you learn more try to correct him when it is appropriate.
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »

I see.  My Jehovah's Witness friend kept trying to push on me that Jehovah is God's real name, and that we ought to call him by it.

thanks

The Jehovah Witnesses got the nonsense from the English translation they were using.  They mistranslate the NT by putting Jehovah in where the text says "Lord." Except for Phillipians 2:11 and other verses that do not suit their heresies (plural).

Tell your friend it is idiocy to believe no one in the Church that Christ said He would be with all the days until the end of the age, and against which the gates of Hell would not prevail, that no one in that Church understood the Bible for nearly 2,000 years until Taze Russell had his "bible classes" in 19th cent. PA.
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 01:46:37 PM »

If the missing fragment worries you, just print it out from the Internet and attach it somehow.
Perfect solution there!
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2010, 01:50:37 PM »

I see.  My Jehovah's Witness friend kept trying to push on me that Jehovah is God's real name, and that we ought to call him by it.

thanks

The Jehovah Witnesses got the nonsense from the English translation they were using.  They mistranslate the NT by putting Jehovah in where the text says "Lord." Except for Phillipians 2:11 and other verses that do not suit their heresies (plural).

Tell your friend it is idiocy to believe no one in the Church that Christ said He would be with all the days until the end of the age, and against which the gates of Hell would not prevail, that no one in that Church understood the Bible for nearly 2,000 years until Taze Russell had his "bible classes" in 19th cent. PA.

When I moved from Seattle to a small Mississippi town in fall 1998, and my wife and daughter were still temporarily in Seattle, I felt very lonely and lost, and at that time two Jehovah's Witnesses started to work on me. Being a "book worm," I was fascinated by what seemed to me as a very "academic" approach to the Bible, and for a while I listened to them.

Indeed, what Ialmisry said above is true. Be careful with these heretics, do not take anything they tell you at face value. It is amazing how they repeat ancient heresies all the time, taking advantage of rank-and-file contemporary Westerners' lack of studying Holy Fathers of the Church. For example, they will "enlighten" you that Christ is not God because John 1:1 uses the term Theos in its second part without the definite article. In St. John Chrysostomos's Homilies on the Gospel According to St. John, there is a whole chapter, explaining, in much detail, why the lack of the definite article does NOT mean that the Logos is not God. Importantly, St. John Chrysostomos lived in the 4th century Eastern Roman Empire and used Greek language every day, so he most certainly understood about Greek articles better than Jehowah's Witnesses of the 19th-20-th-21st centuries living in the USA!
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 02:59:05 PM »

In St. John Chrysostomos's Homilies on the Gospel According to St. John, there is a whole chapter, explaining, in much detail, why the lack of the definite article does NOT mean that the Logos is not God. Importantly, St. John Chrysostomos lived in the 4th century Eastern Roman Empire and used Greek language every day, so he most certainly understood about Greek articles better than Jehowah's Witnesses of the 19th-20-th-21st centuries living in the USA!

But the fact that he even acknowledged the flawed interpretation betrays that the text can imply it, and that other Greek-speaking and reading people of the day were indeed reading it in such a way. So not such a slam dunk after all.
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2010, 05:29:46 PM »

I see.  My Jehovah's Witness friend kept trying to push on me that Jehovah is God's real name, and that we ought to call him by it.

thanks
Until the Masoretic scribes added vowel pointing to the Hebrew Bible to standardize pronunciation (circa 1000 AD), the Hebrew text was composed of consonants only, as was the case when the original text was written. The Divine Name in the original Hebrew text contained only four consonants, written from right to left (יהוה). To stress the point, no vowels were used in the days the original text was produced. For clarity, the four consonants can be transliterated as YHWH (in reverse order, writing from left to right).

My Hebrew professor in seminary argued that "Jehovah" was actually an technically impossible translation of the Divine Name for the following reason.

The W (representing the Hebrew letter vav, ו ), can be pronounced either as an "o" OR as a "v" (or "w"), but not as both at the same time(!), as the word JehOVah requires. Because the pronunciation "JehOVah" requires a single letter, vav, to be pronounced two different ways at one time in the same word, it is impossible that this was the original pronunciation. There are many possible pronunciations of the Divine Name. The correct one is unknown, but the pronunciation "Jehovah" was certainly not it."YahVeh" is a possible pronunciation.

I'm not personally certain my former professor's argument is inescapable (some argue otherwise) but even if it is not, the above details at a minimum serve to illustrate that one cannot easily attain the degree of certainty the Jehovah's Witnesses claim to have about the "only true pronunciation" of the Divine Name.

The New World Translation also errs constantly by inserting "Jehovah" for Gk. κύριος (Lord) and θεὸς (God) in the New Testament although it is not in the original text. Obviously this is interpolation rather than translation. When I was in college (alas, a while ago ;-)  I visited a local Kingdom Hall (no I wasn't tempted to join!!) to special order a Kingdom Interlinear Greek NT/New World Translation which I still have which has some of the most amazing distortions one can imagine of the Greek text right smack under it. Incredibly bad is an understatement BY LIGHT YEARS. Anyone who reads Greek and is interested in talking to Jehovah's Witnesses should pick one up; they produce them for a very low cost and don't mark up the price. Really interesting stuff. Sad.
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 11:35:25 PM »

There are many possible pronunciations of the Divine Name.

My personal favorite possibility is "Yahoo-wahoo."  laugh
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2010, 11:45:00 PM »


The Jehovah Witnesses got the nonsense from the English translation they were using. 

How to welcome Jehovah's Witnesses.   I learnt this from a slightly eccentric Englishman.

So you have a pair of JWs standing at the door...

Look happy, smile, rub your hands together... "Come in, come in, my Bible told me to expect you."

Even the usually reticent JWs will be moved to ask... "It does?  Where does your Bible tell you to expect us?"

"Well," you say, "it says that in the last days... there will come many false prophets."
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2010, 12:26:49 AM »


The Jehovah Witnesses got the nonsense from the English translation they were using. 

How to welcome Jehovah's Witnesses.   I learnt this from a slightly eccentric Englishman.

So you have a pair of JWs standing at the door...

Look happy, smile, rub your hands together... "Come in, come in, my Bible told me to expect you."

Even the usually reticent JWs will be moved to ask... "It does?  Where does your Bible tell you to expect us?"

"Well," you say, "it says that in the last days... there will come many false prophets."

Amen Father!!!
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2010, 04:02:17 AM »

I know this was sinful, arrogant, and condescending, but once when some Mormons came by our house I invited them in and asked, "Would you like anything to drink? We have beer, wine, coffee, tea, coca cola..." Wink


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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2010, 04:17:04 AM »

I know this was sinful, arrogant, and condescending, but once when some Mormons came by our house I invited them in and asked, "Would you like anything to drink? We have beer, wine, coffee, tea, coca cola..." Wink


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I'm told they also have an aversion to certain types of American music. So throw onto your record player your favourite Ray Charles, John Lee Hooker, Satchmo, Aretha Franklin ....  laugh
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 05:12:28 AM »

I call these people Arius' Witnesses, which suits them better in the light of Arius' historic heresy. AW are imitators of the old heresy condemned at the Council of Nicea.

They are reckless people who do not see anything wrong with deliberately distorting the Holy Bible through misinterpretation and inaccurate/misleading translation.

Arius' Witnesses think they are allowed to tell lies about their faith, which is a natural result of their major heresy as they consider Jesus a "false god". Since AW imply that God the Father deceived people by allowing Jesus to look like Himself, they sanction and sanctify lies & pretense.
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2010, 09:16:28 AM »

We are a bit off the original discussion, but since our conversation touched on heretics...

I think this so-called Oneness Pentecostalism is not any better than the teaching of Jehovah's Witnessess. As far as I understand them, the Oneness people (faithful of the so-called UPCI, "United Pentecostal Church International") reject the idea that God is One in essence and Three in Persons. They claim that God is principally one in essence AND in Person (Jesus Christ). Yet, they deny the accusations in Modalism or Patripassionism.

Funny (or maybe not so funny) thing is, I noticed some striking similarities between JWs and UPCIs. Both attack the Trinity as a pagan Hellenistic idea. Both make a huge emphasis on mission or "field" work, which they understand as literally going door-to-door and showing people various sentences from the Bible, which they interpret as fitting into their teaching. Both are Milleniarists (i.e. believe in the literal 1,000-years reign of Christ on earth after His return, when He will be, in their view, sitting literally on the literal throne in the rebuilt temple in the literal city of Jerusalem). Maybe one thing that is different is that UPCIs are passionate Zionists while JWs are not.
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2010, 10:49:05 AM »

I know this was sinful, arrogant, and condescending, but once when some Mormons came by our house I invited them in and asked, "Would you like anything to drink? We have beer, wine, coffee, tea, coca cola..." Wink
I'm told they also have an aversion to certain types of American music. So throw onto your record player your favourite Ray Charles, John Lee Hooker, Satchmo, Aretha Franklin ....  laugh
You're kidding me? They won't listen to music by African Americans?
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2010, 03:59:26 PM »

We are a bit off the original discussion, but since our conversation touched on heretics...

I think this so-called Oneness Pentecostalism is not any better than the teaching of Jehovah's Witnessess. As far as I understand them, the Oneness people (faithful of the so-called UPCI, "United Pentecostal Church International") reject the idea that God is One in essence and Three in Persons. They claim that God is principally one in essence AND in Person (Jesus Christ). Yet, they deny the accusations in Modalism or Patripassionism.

Funny (or maybe not so funny) thing is, I noticed some striking similarities between JWs and UPCIs. Both attack the Trinity as a pagan Hellenistic idea. Both make a huge emphasis on mission or "field" work, which they understand as literally going door-to-door and showing people various sentences from the Bible, which they interpret as fitting into their teaching. Both are Milleniarists (i.e. believe in the literal 1,000-years reign of Christ on earth after His return, when He will be, in their view, sitting literally on the literal throne in the rebuilt temple in the literal city of Jerusalem). Maybe one thing that is different is that UPCIs are passionate Zionists while JWs are not.
I visted one of these churches on two different occassions for the sake of a friend. Very strange indeed.
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2010, 05:26:16 PM »

I know this was sinful, arrogant, and condescending, but once when some Mormons came by our house I invited them in and asked, "Would you like anything to drink? We have beer, wine, coffee, tea, coca cola..." Wink
I'm told they also have an aversion to certain types of American music. So throw onto your record player your favourite Ray Charles, John Lee Hooker, Satchmo, Aretha Franklin ....  laugh
You're kidding me? They won't listen to music by African Americans?

Not just African Americans, but anyone who is black. For many years it was LDS doctrine that people who were black had the "mark of Caan" and could not go to heaven. It wasn't until a recent there was a "prophesy" from one of their Presidents that God gave black people the green light to go to heaven if they became a Mormon.

Watch the PBS series. You will hear it straight from the horses' mouth.

Their theology is crazy. Why anyone would buy into it is beyond me.  Huh
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2010, 05:27:20 PM »

I call these people Arius' Witnesses, which suits them better in the light of Arius' historic heresy. AW are imitators of the old heresy condemned at the Council of Nicea.

They are reckless people who do not see anything wrong with deliberately distorting the Holy Bible through misinterpretation and inaccurate/misleading translation.

Arius' Witnesses think they are allowed to tell lies about their faith, which is a natural result of their major heresy as they consider Jesus a "false god". Since AW imply that God the Father deceived people by allowing Jesus to look like Himself, they sanction and sanctify lies & pretense.

I just wouldn't recommend using St. Nicholas of Myra's tactics for defending Arianism when the LDS or JW come a callin' to your door!  laugh  laugh
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2010, 05:55:03 PM »


I just wouldn't recommend using St. Nicholas of Myra's tactics for defending Arianism when the LDS or JW come a callin' to your door!  laugh  laugh

Defending or assailing?

I can assure you that I shall have different tactics. St. Nikola used his holy hand whereas I shall use my unholy leg  Wink

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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2010, 06:45:47 PM »


I just wouldn't recommend using St. Nicholas of Myra's tactics for defending Arianism when the LDS or JW come a callin' to your door!  laugh  laugh

Defending or assailing?

I can assure you that I shall have different tactics. St. Nikola used his holy hand whereas I shall use my unholy leg  Wink



Assailing. Defend, of course, just not with violence. Smiley
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