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Author Topic: The Book of Mormon  (Read 5740 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2010, 05:08:18 PM »

It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

Why other Restorationist Churches like the Campbellites get a pass on this as being "mainstream" is beyond me with their ambivalence surrounding the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2010, 05:12:57 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.



Then you disagree with the National Council of Christians and Jews. Which is fine.

On this and many other issues.

Quote
The non-denomination National Council of Christians and Jews wrote:

    The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.

    We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

    We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses genuine danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between…neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

        — The National Council of Christians and Jews

I can comment only on the cartoon, which is the only excerpt that I know I've seen (I think I saw something on temple ceremonies etc. which may have been from the same film.

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church.That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.

I have no idea what you mean.

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.

Quote
It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

Basing "facts" off of contact with members who either don't know or refuse to live the teachings of the church doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think they still are to blame.

Quote
The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

I have heard this "different Jesus" line regarding the Catholics too due to the filioque, as covered in the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton. I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the real Jesus and a "different" one but I wouldn't call it a fact.

Quote
It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

So, since you don't approve of the way the LDS Church advertises itself, it is fair to portray it unfairly. Just wanted to be clear. Also too, I know of no LDS who consider themselves or wish to be considered protestants. Christian, yes, but protestant, never.
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2010, 07:25:19 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.
One can read the response to which Marat provided the link and, with a good background in traditional Christian belief, recognize how foreign even what is presented is to Christianity.  For instance (quotes from the linked web page in blue, my responses in black):

  • "they disagreed with the tendency of conventional Christianity to deny the corporeality of God. They thus insisted that God the Father had a 'natural,' physical form. There was no need, in LDS theology, for a non-physical, wholly spirit God to resort to a mysterious process to conceive a Son."  -- Whichever of the early leaders of Mormonism said this, they understood well the traditional Christian teaching on the incorporeality of the Father and openly rejected such teaching, choosing instead to believe that God the Father has a physical body just like you and I do.  Not only is this teaching not Christian, but the early Mormons even recognized that their teaching was not Christian.
  • "they did not accept that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were of one 'essence,' but rather believed that they are distinct Personages. Thus, it is key to LDS theology that Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Holy Ghost. To a creedal, trinitarian Christian, this might be a distinction without a difference; for an LDS Christian it is crucial."  -- We certainly believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but we also believe that they are one in Essence and undivided.  Do Mormons go so far as to deny this unity of essence within the Godhead in their zeal to preach His Trinity of Persons?
  • This quote attributed to Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says."  -- Nowhere in any Christian doctrine have I ever seen the belief that God the Father is a Man.

I hope that I did not come across as defending their beliefs.

I didn't read you that way. Wink  I actually agree with what you've said.

I only wanted to protest the use of sources such as cartoons as the definitive authority on LDS doctrine. That, and the use of snide remarks. The Orthodox Church stands high on its own. It does not need to tear others down. There is a difference between respectfully disagreeing with someone, letting the strength of your argument speak, and taking shots at people. PtA, you are most respectful. Thank you.
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2010, 07:43:05 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.



Then you disagree with the National Council of Christians and Jews. Which is fine.

On this and many other issues.

Quote
The non-denomination National Council of Christians and Jews wrote:

    The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.

    We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

    We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses genuine danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between…neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

        — The National Council of Christians and Jews

I can comment only on the cartoon, which is the only excerpt that I know I've seen (I think I saw something on temple ceremonies etc. which may have been from the same film.

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church.That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.

I have no idea what you mean.
I'm not sure this fits what Ialmisry is trying to say, but what I've read about doctrinal authority in the LDS church appears to me a mix of the charismatic idea that God is still revealing new doctrines to us today and the Roman Catholic idea of papal infallibility, as seen in the statement that only the First President of the Mormon church is authorized to proclaim dogma on behalf of the church.

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.
Yet it is pretty well documented that the Mormons did teach and practice polygamy as a matter of church doctrine until close to the end of the 19th century and that many who call themselves Mormon today (e.g., Warren Jeffs, recent leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) still practice polygamy, even though the practice is now banned in the mainline Mormon church.

Quote
It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

Basing "facts" off of contact with members who either don't know or refuse to live the teachings of the church doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think they still are to blame.

Quote
The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

I have heard this "different Jesus" line regarding the Catholics too due to the filioque, as covered in the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton. I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the real Jesus and a "different" one but I wouldn't call it a fact.
Much of the debate strikes me as a matter of semantics, really.  Some will say that heretics worship the same Jesus, but conceptualize Him differently.  Others will say that heretics merely worship their own false image of Jesus, which is not at all consistent with the real Jesus and must therefore be a different Jesus.  To me, both sides are expressing the same truth, but in different words.

Quote
It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

So, since you don't approve of the way the LDS Church advertises itself, it is fair to portray it unfairly. Just wanted to be clear. Also too, I know of no LDS who consider themselves or wish to be considered protestants. Christian, yes, but protestant, never.
I don't think it unfair to say that Joseph Smith and his earliest following grew out of a revivalist movement in New York (the "Great Awakening") that was very much Protestant in its foundation, but I can certainly see Protestants and Mormons coming to disown any connection with each other, since they're also so very different in many respects.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 07:46:03 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2010, 09:13:17 PM »

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.
Yet it is pretty well documented that the Mormons did teach and practice polygamy as a matter of church doctrine until close to the end of the 19th century and that many who call themselves Mormon today (e.g., Warren Jeffs, recent leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) still practice polygamy, even though the practice is now banned in the mainline Mormon church.

******


The revelation on plural marriage is still considered scripture. While they may not be practicing it today, many Mormons do believe that they will be practicing it in heaven, especially those sealed in the temple. The active women in in my family do believe that they will be first wives to their husbands, even if they don't really like the idea. They do excommunicate those practicing it or endorsing it here and now, though.

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132


*sorry, it looks like I messed up the quote boxes somehow.  Fixed it for you.  Wink  - PtA
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 02:53:33 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2010, 09:18:07 PM »

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church.That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.

I have no idea what you mean.

PtA has gotten it more or less
Quote
I'm not sure this fits what Ialmisry is trying to say, but what I've read about doctrinal authority in the LDS church appears to me a mix of the charismatic idea that God is still revealing new doctrines to us today and the Roman Catholic idea of papal infallibility, as seen in the statement that only the First President of the Mormon church is authorized to proclaim dogma on behalf of the church
The point is that this authority is grafted onto a sola scriptura/each believer interprets the Bible trunk. An odd mix. From things I've picked up it seems the idea of the head of the house having revelations for the family harmonizes it somewhat, but it still makes for a bizarre mix. Which shows when one tries to discuss theology with even their missionaries.

Quote
Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.

Don't know what to tell you. I can't believe I just happened to meet the only ones who so believed.  Back in Oprah's earlier days she had someone from Utah who had several wives.  She identified him as Greek Orthodox, and a couple of his wives stated that they were not Mormon, but several stated their Mormon beliefs as the reason why they had this.  There was some discussion about how mainstream/accepted this was in Utah, but I didn't know enough at the time to really follow it, but it was clear that they were not fundamentalist break offs, but mainstream (i.e. LDS) Mormons who claimed church officials looked the other way.

Quote
Quote
It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

Basing "facts" off of contact with members who either don't know or refuse to live the teachings of the church doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think they still are to blame.

The problem is that the hiearchy states things that are just flat out lies or obfuscates.  And the lack of systematic theology, regular for a evangelical sect but odd for a hiearchal church, basically puts much of what individual Mormons proclaim within the pale.

Quote
Quote
The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

I have heard this "different Jesus" line regarding the Catholics too due to the filioque, as covered in the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton. I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the real Jesus and a "different" one but I wouldn't call it a fact.


The Mormon Jesus has nothing in common in theology with the real one, and very litttle if anything common in history with the real one.

Quote
Quote
It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

So, since you don't approve of the way the LDS Church advertises itself, it is fair to portray it unfairly. Just wanted to be clear. Also too, I know of no LDS who consider themselves or wish to be considered protestants. Christian, yes, but protestant, never.
[/quote]
They aren't Christian either. They try to pass themselves off among the Protestants by default: they share the protestant disgust of the Catholic Church.

And talking about things they don't want to talk about is not portraying it unfairly.
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2010, 09:41:48 PM »

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.
Yet it is pretty well documented that the Mormons did teach and practice polygamy as a matter of church doctrine until close to the end of the 19th century and that many who call themselves Mormon today (e.g., Warren Jeffs, recent leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) still practice polygamy, even though the practice is now banned in the mainline Mormon church.


******


The revelation on plural marriage is still considered scripture. While they may not be practicing it today, many Mormons do believe that they will be practicing it in heaven, especially those sealed in the temple. The active women in in my family do believe that they will be first wives to their husbands, even if they don't really like the idea. They do excommunicate those practicing it or endorsing it here and now, though.

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132


*sorry, it looks like I messed up the quote boxes somehow.
[/quote]

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It is still part of scripture, this is true. The living prophet trumps a dead prophet as well as scriptures. Blows the mind, doesn't it? And the view for the past 120 years or so has been it is a no-no.

Are you LDS/former LDS too?  I've messed the quote box up too. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:42:50 PM by Marat » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2010, 09:53:34 PM »

[
It is still part of scripture, this is true. The living prophet trumps a dead prophet as well as scriptures. Blows the mind, doesn't it? And the view for the past 120 years or so has been it is a no-no.

Are you LDS/former LDS too?  I've messed the quote box up too. Smiley

Former. My husband and I had our names removed a few years ago. His whole side of the family are still very active though. Makes for some strained conversations sometimes.  Sad   



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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2010, 08:38:42 PM »

Dear Trevor,

I once swiped a Book of Mormon from a hotel room and tried to read it. It is the most unintelligible and meaningless string of battles and geneologies imaginable. I keep it, but I have never found any reason to read it. It is a waste of time. I don't think it is a dangrous book to read, because you would have to be pretty delusional to believe it in the first place. It's definitely less deceptive in its methods than modern Protestant literature that finds subtle ways to influence your beliefs without you even knowing it. Now that you know what the Book of Mormon is, I don't see why you should have any interest in it. It is just words on paper. If you just want to know about Mormonism, I don't see why you shouldn't look at it. If you are unsure, just ask your priest.

The way Mormonism attracts followers is by turning Jesus into an American. It's just brilliant.
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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2010, 08:45:10 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2010, 09:37:20 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.

Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print."  So true.



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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2010, 10:15:12 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.

Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print."  So true.


I think that's exactly what I was trying to say. If you like this book, there's something seriously wrong with you.
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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2013, 02:22:12 PM »

(RNS) Karl A. Quilter, the man who designed the majority of the Angel Moroni sculptures that grace the steeples of Mormon temples worldwide, died last week. He was 84.
....
By the time of his death, Quilter had created three versions that could be cast and set atop the temples.

“He was able to create an angel that could be made out of much lighter material, and it made the casting process much easier, it was less expensive and it was more durable,” Finlinson said.
....
Quilter is survived by his wife, his eight children, 43 grandchildren and 48 great-grandchildren.
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« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2013, 02:36:19 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.

Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print."  So true.


I think that's exactly what I was trying to say. If you like this book, there's something seriously wrong with you.

I've never made it past the first few chapters of 1 Nephi, and the only reason I got that far was with the help of the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon.

It has hilarious stuff like this:

Quote
1 Nephi 1:2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
(1:2) Nephi wrote in "the language of his father" -- Egyptian, a strange language for an Israelite of 600 BCE to write in. But, then, we must get used to strange things if we are to read the Book of Mormon.

1:3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.
(1:3) The book of 1 Nephi is true because Nephi says it is. And if you can't believe a pompous, Egyptian-speaking Hebrew that supposedly lived 2600 years ago, whom can you believe?
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« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2013, 03:04:27 PM »

Speaking of hilarious Mormon stuff...

Author Jana Reiss recently released her self-published book, The Twible: All the Chapters of the Bible in 140 Characters or Less…Now with 68% More Humor!, which features a compilation of tweets originally written by Reiss over the past four years that retell every chapter of the Bible.

“Her tweets mix theology with pop-culture inside jokes on sources as varied as Pride and Prejudice, The Lord of the Rings and digital acronyms such as LYAS (love you as a sister). To save on precious character count, God is simply ‘G,’” reported the Religion News Service.

Because of this, Reiss, a Mormon, transformed the Ten Commandments passage into: “G’s Top Ten List: No gods, idols, or blasphemy. Keep the Sabbath holy & love Mom. Don’t kill, cheat, steal, lie or look @ Xmas catalogs,” according to RNS.
....
Excerpts:

Genesis 10: Begat, begat, begat. Name index includes Ludium, Lahabim and Jerah, all now available by prescription. Ask your doctor about Ophir.

Joshua 5: Second-generation Israelites are circumcised before war. The Bible says they spend a while “recovering in camp” afterward. Gee, ya think?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:23:31 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2013, 08:39:06 PM »

Joseph Smith was a freemason.

I believe the nature of the mormon cult is fully rooted in gnosticism.
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« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2013, 08:53:00 PM »

Joseph Smith was a freemason.

I believe the nature of the mormon cult is fully rooted in gnosticism.
George Washington and Ben Franklin were freemasons. That doesn't say anything much about one's philosophical perspective.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2013, 08:54:31 PM »

I thought this was going to be about the musical.
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« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2013, 09:11:19 PM »

I thought this was going to be about the musical.

+1
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Please, James, tell us more about women!
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