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Author Topic: The Book of Mormon  (Read 5483 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: April 06, 2010, 10:07:36 PM »

Hello, All.

today I was at the bookstore, and found a book called "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ".

this book is a bit odd.  it's like it should be part of the bible.  it talks about an angel called Moroni, and Native Americans being a lost tribe of Israel.

has anybody ever heard of this?
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 10:18:47 PM »

This book is part of the "scripture" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as "the Mormons". They are a pseudo-Christian sect which originated in the mid-19th century in Utah. Their beliefs bear no real similarity to any mainstream Christian denomination, let alone Orthodoxy.

Quote
this book is a bit odd.  it's like it should be part of the bible.

No way in the world!! This book is the result of one man's imagination, and has no value at all among Orthodox Christians. You're a newbie in the Orthodox faith, for you to read this book would not be a good idea, any more than reading stuff from the Watchtower (the publishing arm of the Jehovah's Witnesses).
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 10:22:04 PM »

This book is part of the "scripture" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as "the Mormons". They are a pseudo-Christian sect which originated in the mid-19th century in Utah. Their beliefs bear no real similarity to any mainstream Christian denomination, let alone Orthodoxy.

Quote
this book is a bit odd.  it's like it should be part of the bible.

No way in the world!! This book is the result of one man's imagination, and has no value at all among Orthodox Christians. You're a newbie in the Orthodox faith, for you to read this book would not be a good idea, any more than reading stuff from the Watchtower (the publishing arm of the Jehovah's Witnesses).
hm....I wonder if Satan is trying to sabotage me?  I actually had a friend who was a Jehovah' Witness.  he gave me issues of the Watchtower.  but when they slammed Orthodox Christianity (we "worship wood and paint") I tore them up and tossed them out.

thanks.
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 10:32:09 PM »

Christ is risen!

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

and the book of Mormon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRlhLLsIoA
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 10:42:27 PM »

... and this, a version of the Nicene Creeed, modified to fit in with Mormon doctrine:

http://helives.blogspot.com/2007/07/lds-nicene-creed.html
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 11:33:40 PM »

A Boston Taxi Driver gave me the Book of Mormon.  While I was aware of what Mormonism was at that time, I read one or two pages before I put it down and never picked it up again.   Smiley  I kept it in the bookshelves for a few years until giving it away to charity.   Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 12:02:53 AM »

Someone gave me a book of mormon. It's a little blue one with cross references at the bottom of the page that include when the things being recorded happened. In mosiah 187:8-17, pages 181-182 in my copy, an account is given of how the "church" began.

Quote
18:8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another's burdens, that they may be light;   
18:9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life -- 
18:10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?   
18:11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.   
18:12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.   
18:13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.
18:14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.   
18:15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.   
18:16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.   
18:17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.   
18:18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
   

Besides the obvious things wrong that could be found with this passage, the note at the bottom of the page says this all happened [*About 147 B.C.].
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2010, 12:17:02 AM »

Christ is risen!

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

and the book of Mormon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRlhLLsIoA
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin  lol!!!!!!  Mormonism: "dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb"   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

that video was SOOOOO funny (the south park one)!
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 12:29:14 AM »

well, all we can do now is pray for those nuts...um....I mean people  Wink
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2010, 01:47:16 AM »

This book is part of the "scripture" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as "the Mormons". They are a pseudo-Christian sect which originated in the mid-19th century in Utah.
Actually, this sect was founded by the false prophet Joseph Smith in upstate New York during the early 19th century.  As it grew, the sect moved to Nauvoo, Illinois, where Smith was shot and killed while in prison awaiting trial for allegedly starting a riot.  From here, Brigham Young led the Mormons to Utah and founded Salt Lake City, the current center of the Mormon sect.

Their beliefs bear no real similarity to any mainstream Christian denomination, let alone Orthodoxy.
No disagreement here...

Quote
this book is a bit odd.  it's like it should be part of the bible.

No way in the world!! This book is the result of one man's imagination, and has no value at all among Orthodox Christians. You're a newbie in the Orthodox faith, for you to read this book would not be a good idea, any more than reading stuff from the Watchtower (the publishing arm of the Jehovah's Witnesses).
I've read at least one non-Mormon historian who attributed Joseph Smith's supposed prophetic revelations to occult practices.  I would say the Book of Mormon is not exactly something a new Christian should be reading just yet.  Focus a few years on learning the truth of the Orthodox Faith so that you (Trevor) will be better equipped to recognize the many counterfeits.
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 01:50:02 AM »

This book is part of the "scripture" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as "the Mormons". They are a pseudo-Christian sect which originated in the mid-19th century in Utah.
Actually, this sect was founded by the false prophet Joseph Smith in upstate New York during the early 19th century.  As it grew, the sect moved to Nauvoo, Illinois, where Smith was shot and killed while in prison awaiting trial for allegedly starting a riot.  From here, Brigham Young led the Mormons to Utah and founded Salt Lake City, the current center of the Mormon sect.

Their beliefs bear no real similarity to any mainstream Christian denomination, let alone Orthodoxy.
No disagreement here...

Quote
this book is a bit odd.  it's like it should be part of the bible.

No way in the world!! This book is the result of one man's imagination, and has no value at all among Orthodox Christians. You're a newbie in the Orthodox faith, for you to read this book would not be a good idea, any more than reading stuff from the Watchtower (the publishing arm of the Jehovah's Witnesses).
I've read at least one non-Mormon historian who attributed Joseph Smith's supposed prophetic revelations to occult practices.  I would say the Book of Mormon is not exactly something a new Christian should be reading just yet.  Focus a few years on learning the truth of the Orthodox Faith so that you (Trevor) will be better equipped to recognize the many counterfeits.
that's good advice, thanks
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2010, 03:21:52 AM »

The Mormon Church is definitely one of the Worlds weirdest sects. I visited their temple in Finland couple of years ago while it was still open to non-Mormons. I've never been in an American hotel but that temple surely looked like one.

Their theology on the other hand is rather interesting. Even after about two thousand years of theologizing they've actually managed to invent new heresies. That's rather refreshing for a change. If you get bored with Protestantism, Arianism etc. you can always make a field trip into Mormonism and you'll never get bored again.
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 07:27:58 PM »

Just a couple of the pearls of wisdom that they teach are that Jesus is from another planet, He was married to Mary Magdalene and a few other women, and Mormons will eventually become gods with their own creations, etc.  Mormonism is a satanic mockery of Christianity, kind of like Islam is a satanic mockery of Judaism.
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2010, 10:02:35 PM »

Ahhhh nooooooo.  The Book of Mormon . . . Nuke it from space!!!!
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2010, 10:15:19 PM »

LOL! Love the South Park spoof on Mormonism. That was classic!
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 10:26:46 PM »

Christ is Risen!

 I would assertively posit that no Orthodox Christian should waste his/her time on the Satanic machinations of Joseph Smith or any of his followers.  Having said this, I wish to qualify this with another word or two.  Unless you have been an Orthodox Christian for a long time AND have the blessing of your Priest/spiritual father to do so AND your intentions are to study it to educate other Orthodox Christians, you should be very, very careful with this cult.  In addition, while I wouldn't say don't befriend any Mormons, again, we should be discerning about who our friends are.  I know this might sound harsh, and I'm not advocating that Orthodox Christians only stick to themselves; this is not authentic Christianity.  But this cult is very, very adept at twisting words around and confusing people.  New Orthodox Christians should be very, very wary.
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 11:03:27 PM »

PBS did an excellent film on The Mormons which you can watch online. The film was made with permission from the Latter Day Saints, and many people from the LDS speak in the film. It's very informative and interesting.

Here's the thing, after watching it, you will clearly see why these very nice, very moral, very family oriented people are NOT Christians.  Smiley

(For one thing they believe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. I know it's the "Show Me" state, but really?!)

P.S. I would highly recommend everyone watch the film so that they can know what to expect when the Mormans try to evangelize them on their doorstep.
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 12:06:53 AM »

that was an interesting video.  I'll return the book, or at the very least leave it in a box in the garage.  I am, as pointed out, a new Christian and I don't need to be confused.  since they say it's "sacred scripture"(to them) should I burn it, as I have been instructed to do with an unwanted Bible, broken icon, palms and willows, etc. ?
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2010, 04:05:05 AM »

that was an interesting video.  I'll return the book, or at the very least leave it in a box in the garage.  I am, as pointed out, a new Christian and I don't need to be confused.  since they say it's "sacred scripture"(to them) should I burn it, as I have been instructed to do with an unwanted Bible, broken icon, palms and willows, etc. ?

You can always burn it.

Or keep it in some dark place, so others can't be misled.
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2010, 04:06:27 AM »

LOL! Love the South Park spoof on Mormonism. That was classic!

Is it technically a spoof when it's all true?
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2010, 04:31:28 AM »

that was an interesting video.  I'll return the book, or at the very least leave it in a box in the garage.  I am, as pointed out, a new Christian and I don't need to be confused.  since they say it's "sacred scripture"(to them) should I burn it, as I have been instructed to do with an unwanted Bible, broken icon, palms and willows, etc. ?
That's the spirit. I was already confused with protestantism. but now I'm becoming more theologically sound with orthodoxy.
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2010, 10:25:59 PM »

that was an interesting video.  I'll return the book, or at the very least leave it in a box in the garage.  I am, as pointed out, a new Christian and I don't need to be confused.  since they say it's "sacred scripture"(to them) should I burn it, as I have been instructed to do with an unwanted Bible, broken icon, palms and willows, etc. ?

Well, the trash can is the best place for that "sacred scripture."
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 04:25:16 AM »

Hello, All.

today I was at the bookstore, and found a book called "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ".

this book is a bit odd.  it's like it should be part of the bible.  it talks about an angel called Moroni, and Native Americans being a lost tribe of Israel.

has anybody ever heard of this?

PBS just did a show about them some days ago.
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/ (pbs-mormons)

and

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view/ (the program I saw on pbs some days ago)


Also, Perry went back and forth with a couple of their apologists. It was really educational:
http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/a-sign-of-the-apocalypse/ (Perry's blog post about an LDS book)

and

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/contra-mundum-athanasius-and-the-lds-on-deification/ (Contra Mundum: Athanasius and the LDS on Deification)







Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2010, 11:05:15 AM »

For one thing they believe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.

The Garden of Eden is Missouri. Although I would argue with Mr. Smith's assertion that it is in my current Jackson County. Everyone around here knows that Eden is the rural Ozarks. The closer to Arkansas you get, them more beautiful the scenery.
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 11:53:28 AM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

That is a classic and a must see.  I was shown that cartoon in church as a kid.  After watching this, anytime a Mormon comes to your door you can just say "You can't convert me.  I saw THE CARTOON."  And if they say something like "You mean that smear piece against the Latter Day Saints?  That's not an accurate depiction."  Then you just say "Oh, and I suppose those cartoonists just made stuff up out of the blue?"  And they will have no response.
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2010, 01:24:55 PM »

Well, what do you do when son is engaged to a Mormon, and (arrggggggh) converting with MY grandson?  They do show up for what I call "command" appearances.  For example, they all came to my nieces confirmation- which lasted a little over two hours, and other important events.  So there is still hope.  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 01:30:12 PM »

Well, what do you do when son is engaged to a Mormon, and (arrggggggh) converting with MY grandson?  They do show up for what I call "command" appearances.  For example, they all came to my nieces confirmation- which lasted a little over two hours, and other important events.  So there is still hope.  Smiley
has your grandson seen the cartoon?

When my sons and I were in SLC (then they were 10 and 9) the one said "baba, these people use the same words but they don't mean the same thing," and the other asked, looking at the drawn curtains and locked doors of the Temple "what do they have to hide?"  I showed them the cartoon when we got back.
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 02:11:22 PM »

For one thing they believe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.

The Garden of Eden is Missouri. Although I would argue with Mr. Smith's assertion that it is in my current Jackson County. Everyone around here knows that Eden is the rural Ozarks. The closer to Arkansas you get, them more beautiful the scenery.

Amen to that!  Wink Grin
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 02:54:00 PM »

For one thing they believe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.

The Garden of Eden is Missouri. Although I would argue with Mr. Smith's assertion that it is in my current Jackson County. Everyone around here knows that Eden is the rural Ozarks. The closer to Arkansas you get, them more beautiful the scenery.

 Cheesy  Cheesy

No disrespect to the fine people of Missouri, but it's not between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers last time I checked. Wink
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 05:12:42 PM »

Plus Joseph Smith translated actual Egyptian papyrii and said it was the Book of Abraham, which is now canonized Mormon scripture (part of the Pearl of Great Price).  Since then Egyptologists have shown that the pictures and heiroglyphics on the papyrii mean something totally different than Joseph Smith said it did.  Anyone who remains Mormon after seeing this must really have a seared conscience, or just be...dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 02:06:41 AM »

Well, what do you do when son is engaged to a Mormon, and (arrggggggh) converting with MY grandson?  They do show up for what I call "command" appearances.  For example, they all came to my nieces confirmation- which lasted a little over two hours, and other important events.  So there is still hope.  Smiley
has your grandson seen the cartoon?

When my sons and I were in SLC (then they were 10 and 9) the one said "baba, these people use the same words but they don't mean the same thing," and the other asked, looking at the drawn curtains and locked doors of the Temple "what do they have to hide?"  I showed them the cartoon when we got back.

No I haven't, he just turned 6!
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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 04:57:51 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 04:58:06 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2010, 05:54:32 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2010, 05:59:16 PM »

Plus Joseph Smith translated actual Egyptian papyrii and said it was the Book of Abraham, which is now canonized Mormon scripture (part of the Pearl of Great Price).  Since then Egyptologists have shown that the pictures and heiroglyphics on the papyrii mean something totally different than Joseph Smith said it did.  Anyone who remains Mormon after seeing this must really have a seared conscience, or just be...dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

A response to this is available here.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

I have never understood the joy some have in mocking the religion of another.
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2010, 06:41:38 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
I've read The God Makers, by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt, and watched the South Park Mormon episode, and think their representations of Mormonism so extreme and mocking as to be unfair, even if they are based on kernels of truth.  I've also had the displeasure of reading one of Mr. Hunt's criticisms of the Orthodox Church, which I've recognized as so full of Fundamentalist half-truths and perversions of our doctrines that I have to wonder if he really knows anything about any religion outside of his own.  I therefore don't trust anything he writes anymore.

That said, I'm equally skeptical of anything the LDS church and its representatives publish to defend their heretical faith, to include the links Marat provided above, and would advise everyone else to not trust them.  ISTM that they design their apologetics to not only defend what they believe to be true, but to also put themselves forward as being just as Christian as all others who call themselves Christian, even though what can be truly verified as Mormon doctrine differs so much from traditional Christianity.

My advice, then, to anyone who would seek the truth about the Mormons is to read the most objective, least polemic sources written by those outside the LDS church.
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2010, 11:23:02 PM »

Back when my husband and I were leaving Mormonism, we found this website very helpful and thorough... http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html  (The tabs on the left lead to lots of info.) They have a lot of good information straight from the sources. One can study what they have, then contrast it with the Mormon apologetics and from that, make their own decisions regarding the LDS.

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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2010, 11:57:05 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2010, 12:04:09 AM »

Plus Joseph Smith translated actual Egyptian papyrii and said it was the Book of Abraham, which is now canonized Mormon scripture (part of the Pearl of Great Price).  Since then Egyptologists have shown that the pictures and heiroglyphics on the papyrii mean something totally different than Joseph Smith said it did.  Anyone who remains Mormon after seeing this must really have a seared conscience, or just be...dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

A response to this is available here.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

I have never understood the joy some have in mocking the religion of another.

The "response" presumes (without substantiation) that JS Jr. could or did translate anything, and glosses over the problem that the reproduced image, given that it is a manuscript and not a google image, conclusively shows that it is the papyrus that JS Jr. claimed was the Book of Abraham.

I once perused a lengthy defense of the Book of Abraham being proved by that papyrus, comparing the BoA text with the Egyptologist's translation.  My Old Egyptian professor used to get calls on this matter from Utah all the time.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2010, 01:55:55 AM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.
One can read the response to which Marat provided the link and, with a good background in traditional Christian belief, recognize how foreign even what is presented is to Christianity.  For instance (quotes from the linked web page in blue, my responses in black):

  • "they disagreed with the tendency of conventional Christianity to deny the corporeality of God. They thus insisted that God the Father had a 'natural,' physical form. There was no need, in LDS theology, for a non-physical, wholly spirit God to resort to a mysterious process to conceive a Son."  -- Whichever of the early leaders of Mormonism said this, they understood well the traditional Christian teaching on the incorporeality of the Father and openly rejected such teaching, choosing instead to believe that God the Father has a physical body just like you and I do.  Not only is this teaching not Christian, but the early Mormons even recognized that their teaching was not Christian.
  • "they did not accept that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were of one 'essence,' but rather believed that they are distinct Personages. Thus, it is key to LDS theology that Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Holy Ghost. To a creedal, trinitarian Christian, this might be a distinction without a difference; for an LDS Christian it is crucial."  -- We certainly believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but we also believe that they are one in Essence and undivided.  Do Mormons go so far as to deny this unity of essence within the Godhead in their zeal to preach His Trinity of Persons?
  • This quote attributed to Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says."  -- Nowhere in any Christian doctrine have I ever seen the belief that God the Father is a Man.
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2010, 01:57:54 AM »

Somehow, I remember critiquing here on OC.net some of the teachings presented on the official web site of the Mormon church.  This was some time ago.  Let me see if I can dig it up.
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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2010, 02:31:15 AM »

^ Nah.  Maybe I'm thinking of an argument I had with some fellow some years ago on another discussion forum.  Sorry.
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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2010, 02:29:27 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.
One can read the response to which Marat provided the link and, with a good background in traditional Christian belief, recognize how foreign even what is presented is to Christianity.  For instance (quotes from the linked web page in blue, my responses in black):

  • "they disagreed with the tendency of conventional Christianity to deny the corporeality of God. They thus insisted that God the Father had a 'natural,' physical form. There was no need, in LDS theology, for a non-physical, wholly spirit God to resort to a mysterious process to conceive a Son."  -- Whichever of the early leaders of Mormonism said this, they understood well the traditional Christian teaching on the incorporeality of the Father and openly rejected such teaching, choosing instead to believe that God the Father has a physical body just like you and I do.  Not only is this teaching not Christian, but the early Mormons even recognized that their teaching was not Christian.
  • "they did not accept that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were of one 'essence,' but rather believed that they are distinct Personages. Thus, it is key to LDS theology that Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Holy Ghost. To a creedal, trinitarian Christian, this might be a distinction without a difference; for an LDS Christian it is crucial."  -- We certainly believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but we also believe that they are one in Essence and undivided.  Do Mormons go so far as to deny this unity of essence within the Godhead in their zeal to preach His Trinity of Persons?
  • This quote attributed to Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says."  -- Nowhere in any Christian doctrine have I ever seen the belief that God the Father is a Man.
Nor have I ever seen in traditional Christianity any doctrine that God the Father was ever in need of perfection, such that we can apply to Him the word "perfected" in the past tense.  To have been perfected, one must have first been imperfect, which is a blasphemous thing to say about God.
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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2010, 04:10:10 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.



Then you disagree with the National Council of Christians and Jews. Which is fine.

Quote
The non-denomination National Council of Christians and Jews wrote:

    The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.

    We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

    We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses genuine danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between…neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

        — The National Council of Christians and Jews
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 04:17:26 PM by Marat » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2010, 04:16:49 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.
One can read the response to which Marat provided the link and, with a good background in traditional Christian belief, recognize how foreign even what is presented is to Christianity.  For instance (quotes from the linked web page in blue, my responses in black):

  • "they disagreed with the tendency of conventional Christianity to deny the corporeality of God. They thus insisted that God the Father had a 'natural,' physical form. There was no need, in LDS theology, for a non-physical, wholly spirit God to resort to a mysterious process to conceive a Son."  -- Whichever of the early leaders of Mormonism said this, they understood well the traditional Christian teaching on the incorporeality of the Father and openly rejected such teaching, choosing instead to believe that God the Father has a physical body just like you and I do.  Not only is this teaching not Christian, but the early Mormons even recognized that their teaching was not Christian.
  • "they did not accept that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were of one 'essence,' but rather believed that they are distinct Personages. Thus, it is key to LDS theology that Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Holy Ghost. To a creedal, trinitarian Christian, this might be a distinction without a difference; for an LDS Christian it is crucial."  -- We certainly believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but we also believe that they are one in Essence and undivided.  Do Mormons go so far as to deny this unity of essence within the Godhead in their zeal to preach His Trinity of Persons?
  • This quote attributed to Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says."  -- Nowhere in any Christian doctrine have I ever seen the belief that God the Father is a Man.

I hope that I did not come across as defending their beliefs. I only wanted to protest the use of sources such as cartoons as the definitive authority on LDS doctrine. That, and the use of snide remarks. The Orthodox Church stands high on its own. It does not need to tear others down. There is a difference between respectfully disagreeing with someone, letting the strength of your argument speak, and taking shots at people. PtA, you are most respectful. Thank you.
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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2010, 04:42:29 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.



Then you disagree with the National Council of Christians and Jews. Which is fine.

On this and many other issues.

Quote
The non-denomination National Council of Christians and Jews wrote:

    The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.

    We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

    We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses genuine danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between…neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

        — The National Council of Christians and Jews

I can comment only on the cartoon, which is the only excerpt that I know I've seen (I think I saw something on temple ceremonies etc. which may have been from the same film.

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church. That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.  When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew). It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 04:43:10 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2010, 05:08:18 PM »

It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

Why other Restorationist Churches like the Campbellites get a pass on this as being "mainstream" is beyond me with their ambivalence surrounding the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2010, 05:12:57 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.



Then you disagree with the National Council of Christians and Jews. Which is fine.

On this and many other issues.

Quote
The non-denomination National Council of Christians and Jews wrote:

    The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.

    We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

    We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses genuine danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between…neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

        — The National Council of Christians and Jews

I can comment only on the cartoon, which is the only excerpt that I know I've seen (I think I saw something on temple ceremonies etc. which may have been from the same film.

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church.That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.

I have no idea what you mean.

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.

Quote
It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

Basing "facts" off of contact with members who either don't know or refuse to live the teachings of the church doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think they still are to blame.

Quote
The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

I have heard this "different Jesus" line regarding the Catholics too due to the filioque, as covered in the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton. I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the real Jesus and a "different" one but I wouldn't call it a fact.

Quote
It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

So, since you don't approve of the way the LDS Church advertises itself, it is fair to portray it unfairly. Just wanted to be clear. Also too, I know of no LDS who consider themselves or wish to be considered protestants. Christian, yes, but protestant, never.
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2010, 07:25:19 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.
One can read the response to which Marat provided the link and, with a good background in traditional Christian belief, recognize how foreign even what is presented is to Christianity.  For instance (quotes from the linked web page in blue, my responses in black):

  • "they disagreed with the tendency of conventional Christianity to deny the corporeality of God. They thus insisted that God the Father had a 'natural,' physical form. There was no need, in LDS theology, for a non-physical, wholly spirit God to resort to a mysterious process to conceive a Son."  -- Whichever of the early leaders of Mormonism said this, they understood well the traditional Christian teaching on the incorporeality of the Father and openly rejected such teaching, choosing instead to believe that God the Father has a physical body just like you and I do.  Not only is this teaching not Christian, but the early Mormons even recognized that their teaching was not Christian.
  • "they did not accept that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were of one 'essence,' but rather believed that they are distinct Personages. Thus, it is key to LDS theology that Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Holy Ghost. To a creedal, trinitarian Christian, this might be a distinction without a difference; for an LDS Christian it is crucial."  -- We certainly believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but we also believe that they are one in Essence and undivided.  Do Mormons go so far as to deny this unity of essence within the Godhead in their zeal to preach His Trinity of Persons?
  • This quote attributed to Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says."  -- Nowhere in any Christian doctrine have I ever seen the belief that God the Father is a Man.

I hope that I did not come across as defending their beliefs.

I didn't read you that way. Wink  I actually agree with what you've said.

I only wanted to protest the use of sources such as cartoons as the definitive authority on LDS doctrine. That, and the use of snide remarks. The Orthodox Church stands high on its own. It does not need to tear others down. There is a difference between respectfully disagreeing with someone, letting the strength of your argument speak, and taking shots at people. PtA, you are most respectful. Thank you.
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2010, 07:43:05 PM »

This cartoon shows you all you need to know about Mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

 Shocked

Is this for real? I didn't know they took things that far.

Wow

It is not a fair representation. You can read a response here. http://en.fairmormon.org/Specific_works/The_God_Makers/Cartoon
No, I've read Mormon literature written by Mormons for Mormons (including the pronouncements of the "prophets"). It is quite fair.

I notice a number of lacuna in your link. Also the listing of "repudiated" beliefs which means that they were once taught.  And since the Mormons are more (because of their splintering) a movement, there are plenty of Mormons who belief these "repudiated" beliefs, including those who remain in the Utah church.



Then you disagree with the National Council of Christians and Jews. Which is fine.

On this and many other issues.

Quote
The non-denomination National Council of Christians and Jews wrote:

    The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.

    We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

    We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses genuine danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between…neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

        — The National Council of Christians and Jews

I can comment only on the cartoon, which is the only excerpt that I know I've seen (I think I saw something on temple ceremonies etc. which may have been from the same film.

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church.That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.

I have no idea what you mean.
I'm not sure this fits what Ialmisry is trying to say, but what I've read about doctrinal authority in the LDS church appears to me a mix of the charismatic idea that God is still revealing new doctrines to us today and the Roman Catholic idea of papal infallibility, as seen in the statement that only the First President of the Mormon church is authorized to proclaim dogma on behalf of the church.

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.
Yet it is pretty well documented that the Mormons did teach and practice polygamy as a matter of church doctrine until close to the end of the 19th century and that many who call themselves Mormon today (e.g., Warren Jeffs, recent leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) still practice polygamy, even though the practice is now banned in the mainline Mormon church.

Quote
It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

Basing "facts" off of contact with members who either don't know or refuse to live the teachings of the church doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think they still are to blame.

Quote
The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

I have heard this "different Jesus" line regarding the Catholics too due to the filioque, as covered in the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton. I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the real Jesus and a "different" one but I wouldn't call it a fact.
Much of the debate strikes me as a matter of semantics, really.  Some will say that heretics worship the same Jesus, but conceptualize Him differently.  Others will say that heretics merely worship their own false image of Jesus, which is not at all consistent with the real Jesus and must therefore be a different Jesus.  To me, both sides are expressing the same truth, but in different words.

Quote
It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

So, since you don't approve of the way the LDS Church advertises itself, it is fair to portray it unfairly. Just wanted to be clear. Also too, I know of no LDS who consider themselves or wish to be considered protestants. Christian, yes, but protestant, never.
I don't think it unfair to say that Joseph Smith and his earliest following grew out of a revivalist movement in New York (the "Great Awakening") that was very much Protestant in its foundation, but I can certainly see Protestants and Mormons coming to disown any connection with each other, since they're also so very different in many respects.
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2010, 09:13:17 PM »

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.
Yet it is pretty well documented that the Mormons did teach and practice polygamy as a matter of church doctrine until close to the end of the 19th century and that many who call themselves Mormon today (e.g., Warren Jeffs, recent leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) still practice polygamy, even though the practice is now banned in the mainline Mormon church.

******


The revelation on plural marriage is still considered scripture. While they may not be practicing it today, many Mormons do believe that they will be practicing it in heaven, especially those sealed in the temple. The active women in in my family do believe that they will be first wives to their husbands, even if they don't really like the idea. They do excommunicate those practicing it or endorsing it here and now, though.

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132


*sorry, it looks like I messed up the quote boxes somehow.  Fixed it for you.  Wink  - PtA
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2010, 09:18:07 PM »

One problem should be brought out that in my experience, that of others, and from what I have read, there is nothing in the way of a body of systematic theology, despite the hierarchal nature of their church.That of course stems from the imposition of a charismatic hiearchy on it congregationalist basis.

I have no idea what you mean.

PtA has gotten it more or less
Quote
I'm not sure this fits what Ialmisry is trying to say, but what I've read about doctrinal authority in the LDS church appears to me a mix of the charismatic idea that God is still revealing new doctrines to us today and the Roman Catholic idea of papal infallibility, as seen in the statement that only the First President of the Mormon church is authorized to proclaim dogma on behalf of the church
The point is that this authority is grafted onto a sola scriptura/each believer interprets the Bible trunk. An odd mix. From things I've picked up it seems the idea of the head of the house having revelations for the family harmonizes it somewhat, but it still makes for a bizarre mix. Which shows when one tries to discuss theology with even their missionaries.

Quote
Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.

Don't know what to tell you. I can't believe I just happened to meet the only ones who so believed.  Back in Oprah's earlier days she had someone from Utah who had several wives.  She identified him as Greek Orthodox, and a couple of his wives stated that they were not Mormon, but several stated their Mormon beliefs as the reason why they had this.  There was some discussion about how mainstream/accepted this was in Utah, but I didn't know enough at the time to really follow it, but it was clear that they were not fundamentalist break offs, but mainstream (i.e. LDS) Mormons who claimed church officials looked the other way.

Quote
Quote
It is rather hard to disown plural marriage (the reason for the federal ban on polygamy in force today, something Muslims want to challenge) when you believe in a Heavenly Mother (with others) with Elohim. Since "half-truths and generalizations" about fits the sermons I got from practising Mormons, if that is what the beliefs in the cartoon are, the producers are hardly to blame.

Basing "facts" off of contact with members who either don't know or refuse to live the teachings of the church doesn't sound like the best idea to me. I think they still are to blame.

The problem is that the hiearchy states things that are just flat out lies or obfuscates.  And the lack of systematic theology, regular for a evangelical sect but odd for a hiearchal church, basically puts much of what individual Mormons proclaim within the pale.

Quote
Quote
The complaint that the "Mormon Jesus" suggests that the Mormons worship a different Jesus.  It's not a suggestion: it's a statement of fact, as much a fact that the Prophet Isa of Islam is different from the Christ of the Church.

I have heard this "different Jesus" line regarding the Catholics too due to the filioque, as covered in the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton. I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the real Jesus and a "different" one but I wouldn't call it a fact.


The Mormon Jesus has nothing in common in theology with the real one, and very litttle if anything common in history with the real one.

Quote
Quote
It may be guilty of sensationalism, but in the face of the active campaign of the Mormons to pass themselves off as mainstream conservative Protestants, well taken.  As far as Mormon history is concerned, it is quite, quite subdued.

So, since you don't approve of the way the LDS Church advertises itself, it is fair to portray it unfairly. Just wanted to be clear. Also too, I know of no LDS who consider themselves or wish to be considered protestants. Christian, yes, but protestant, never.
[/quote]
They aren't Christian either. They try to pass themselves off among the Protestants by default: they share the protestant disgust of the Catholic Church.

And talking about things they don't want to talk about is not portraying it unfairly.
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2010, 09:41:48 PM »

Quote
When I worked in DC during the 80's I knew lots of Mormons, members of the Utah church, who, for instance, still believed in polygamy and preached it (enticing a devout Baptist from TX I knew).

I find this hard to believe, when I have never met one in 22 years of the LDS Church, knowing like a thousand members and living in UT for several years. That doesn't mean it isn't true, just hard to believe. Anyone endorsing polygamy is not really a member, and will be exed if found out.
Yet it is pretty well documented that the Mormons did teach and practice polygamy as a matter of church doctrine until close to the end of the 19th century and that many who call themselves Mormon today (e.g., Warren Jeffs, recent leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) still practice polygamy, even though the practice is now banned in the mainline Mormon church.


******


The revelation on plural marriage is still considered scripture. While they may not be practicing it today, many Mormons do believe that they will be practicing it in heaven, especially those sealed in the temple. The active women in in my family do believe that they will be first wives to their husbands, even if they don't really like the idea. They do excommunicate those practicing it or endorsing it here and now, though.

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132


*sorry, it looks like I messed up the quote boxes somehow.
[/quote]

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It is still part of scripture, this is true. The living prophet trumps a dead prophet as well as scriptures. Blows the mind, doesn't it? And the view for the past 120 years or so has been it is a no-no.

Are you LDS/former LDS too?  I've messed the quote box up too. Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2010, 09:53:34 PM »

[
It is still part of scripture, this is true. The living prophet trumps a dead prophet as well as scriptures. Blows the mind, doesn't it? And the view for the past 120 years or so has been it is a no-no.

Are you LDS/former LDS too?  I've messed the quote box up too. Smiley

Former. My husband and I had our names removed a few years ago. His whole side of the family are still very active though. Makes for some strained conversations sometimes.  Sad   



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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2010, 08:38:42 PM »

Dear Trevor,

I once swiped a Book of Mormon from a hotel room and tried to read it. It is the most unintelligible and meaningless string of battles and geneologies imaginable. I keep it, but I have never found any reason to read it. It is a waste of time. I don't think it is a dangrous book to read, because you would have to be pretty delusional to believe it in the first place. It's definitely less deceptive in its methods than modern Protestant literature that finds subtle ways to influence your beliefs without you even knowing it. Now that you know what the Book of Mormon is, I don't see why you should have any interest in it. It is just words on paper. If you just want to know about Mormonism, I don't see why you shouldn't look at it. If you are unsure, just ask your priest.

The way Mormonism attracts followers is by turning Jesus into an American. It's just brilliant.
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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2010, 08:45:10 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2010, 09:37:20 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.

Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print."  So true.



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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2010, 10:15:12 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.

Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print."  So true.


I think that's exactly what I was trying to say. If you like this book, there's something seriously wrong with you.
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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2013, 02:22:12 PM »

(RNS) Karl A. Quilter, the man who designed the majority of the Angel Moroni sculptures that grace the steeples of Mormon temples worldwide, died last week. He was 84.
....
By the time of his death, Quilter had created three versions that could be cast and set atop the temples.

“He was able to create an angel that could be made out of much lighter material, and it made the casting process much easier, it was less expensive and it was more durable,” Finlinson said.
....
Quilter is survived by his wife, his eight children, 43 grandchildren and 48 great-grandchildren.
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« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2013, 02:36:19 PM »

I'm someone who generally loves to read tedious religious documents and historical texts, but the Book of Mormon is really, really boring.

Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print."  So true.


I think that's exactly what I was trying to say. If you like this book, there's something seriously wrong with you.

I've never made it past the first few chapters of 1 Nephi, and the only reason I got that far was with the help of the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon.

It has hilarious stuff like this:

Quote
1 Nephi 1:2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
(1:2) Nephi wrote in "the language of his father" -- Egyptian, a strange language for an Israelite of 600 BCE to write in. But, then, we must get used to strange things if we are to read the Book of Mormon.

1:3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.
(1:3) The book of 1 Nephi is true because Nephi says it is. And if you can't believe a pompous, Egyptian-speaking Hebrew that supposedly lived 2600 years ago, whom can you believe?
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« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2013, 03:04:27 PM »

Speaking of hilarious Mormon stuff...

Author Jana Reiss recently released her self-published book, The Twible: All the Chapters of the Bible in 140 Characters or Less…Now with 68% More Humor!, which features a compilation of tweets originally written by Reiss over the past four years that retell every chapter of the Bible.

“Her tweets mix theology with pop-culture inside jokes on sources as varied as Pride and Prejudice, The Lord of the Rings and digital acronyms such as LYAS (love you as a sister). To save on precious character count, God is simply ‘G,’” reported the Religion News Service.

Because of this, Reiss, a Mormon, transformed the Ten Commandments passage into: “G’s Top Ten List: No gods, idols, or blasphemy. Keep the Sabbath holy & love Mom. Don’t kill, cheat, steal, lie or look @ Xmas catalogs,” according to RNS.
....
Excerpts:

Genesis 10: Begat, begat, begat. Name index includes Ludium, Lahabim and Jerah, all now available by prescription. Ask your doctor about Ophir.

Joshua 5: Second-generation Israelites are circumcised before war. The Bible says they spend a while “recovering in camp” afterward. Gee, ya think?
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« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2013, 08:39:06 PM »

Joseph Smith was a freemason.

I believe the nature of the mormon cult is fully rooted in gnosticism.
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« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2013, 08:53:00 PM »

Joseph Smith was a freemason.

I believe the nature of the mormon cult is fully rooted in gnosticism.
George Washington and Ben Franklin were freemasons. That doesn't say anything much about one's philosophical perspective.
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« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2013, 08:54:31 PM »

I thought this was going to be about the musical.
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« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2013, 09:11:19 PM »

I thought this was going to be about the musical.

+1
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