Author Topic: Appropriate troparia/katavasia for baptism in Paschal time  (Read 1109 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Appropriate troparia/katavasia for baptism in Paschal time
« on: April 06, 2010, 09:47:23 PM »
For most infant baptisms that I have chanted, as we process into the church after the exorcisms, the chanters chant both the Theophany Troparion "When Thou O Lord was baptized" and the Pentecost Troparion "Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God."  But as this is the Paschal season, do we dispense with those troparia and instead sing the Paschal Troparion?  Also, after the baptism and the during the vesting, it is customary to sing the Katavasiae of the Cross in tone 8.  Should those also be dispensed with and the Katavasiae of Pascha be chanted instead?

Many thanks, O learned liturgical experts.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Appropriate troparia/katavasia for baptism in Paschal time
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 12:07:15 AM »
For most infant baptisms that I have chanted, as we process into the church after the exorcisms, the chanters chant both the Theophany Troparion "When Thou O Lord was baptized" and the Pentecost Troparion "Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God."  But as this is the Paschal season, do we dispense with those troparia and instead sing the Paschal Troparion?  Also, after the baptism and the during the vesting, it is customary to sing the Katavasiae of the Cross in tone 8.  Should those also be dispensed with and the Katavasiae of Pascha be chanted instead?

Many thanks, O learned liturgical experts.
This must be a very idiosyncratic custom of the Antiochians (?) since the books do not ask for any of these troparia to be sung.
Not that I am a liturgical expert, or any sort of expert, by any means.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 12:13:55 AM by augustin717 »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Appropriate troparia/katavasia for baptism in Paschal time
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 10:17:43 AM »
For most infant baptisms that I have chanted, as we process into the church after the exorcisms, the chanters chant both the Theophany Troparion "When Thou O Lord was baptized" and the Pentecost Troparion "Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God."  But as this is the Paschal season, do we dispense with those troparia and instead sing the Paschal Troparion?  Also, after the baptism and the during the vesting, it is customary to sing the Katavasiae of the Cross in tone 8.  Should those also be dispensed with and the Katavasiae of Pascha be chanted instead?

Many thanks, O learned liturgical experts.
This must be a very idiosyncratic custom of the Antiochians (?) since the books do not ask for any of these troparia to be sung.
Not that I am a liturgical expert, or any sort of expert, by any means.

Why do you consider this Antiochian practice to be idiosyncratic? Is it because you have looked at the practices of other Orthodox Churches or because the practice in the Romanian Church is different?

Also, while the limited number of on-line service books that I looked at simply jump from the Service of Catechumens to Holy Baptism, what would be wrong if a hymn or two are chanted to bridge the two services?

« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 10:28:19 AM by Second Chance »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Appropriate troparia/katavasia for baptism in Paschal time
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 10:31:26 AM »
For most infant baptisms that I have chanted, as we process into the church after the exorcisms, the chanters chant both the Theophany Troparion "When Thou O Lord was baptized" and the Pentecost Troparion "Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God."  But as this is the Paschal season, do we dispense with those troparia and instead sing the Paschal Troparion?  Also, after the baptism and the during the vesting, it is customary to sing the Katavasiae of the Cross in tone 8.  Should those also be dispensed with and the Katavasiae of Pascha be chanted instead?

Many thanks, O learned liturgical experts.

I've never seen a rubric indicating that anything should be chanted between the making of a catechumen and the start of the Baptism proper.  We do in my parish - saying the Apolytikion of Theophany (As You were baptized in the Jordan, O Lord...) three times - but I do not think I've seen it written into any prayer books.

That said - yes, I'd probably switch to singing "Christ is Risen."  I've not seen any indication that when baptisms are performed during Bright Week the hymn of Theophany (or Pentecost, for that matter) should be included.  The entire week is filled with two constants: singing "Christ is Risen" many times, and singing "All those who have been baptized into Christ..." at every Liturgy.  Stick with that formula, IMO.

As to your Katavasiae question: yes, switch.  This is one thing I definitely have seen - in the Priest's prayer book (actually, in two different translations of said book) they include both the Katavasiae of the Cross and of Pascha.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 10:33:11 AM by Fr. George »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Appropriate troparia/katavasia for baptism in Paschal time
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 01:46:26 PM »
^Fr. George, as always, I bow before your knowledge of all things liturgical.  thanks. ;D