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« on: March 22, 2010, 03:31:44 PM »

IONIAN VILLAGE FAMILY CAMP EARLY REGISTRATION FEES EXTENDED UNTIL APRIL 9, 2010


NEW YORK – Ionian Village Family Camp, a collaboration of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese offices of Ionian Village and the Center for Family Care, has extended its early registration deadline until April 9, 2010 for its inaugural Family Camp to be held July 17-26, 2010.
 

Families who participate in Ionian Village travel across Greece to venerate the relics of saints, walk in the footsteps of the Apostles, and visit significant sites of Greek history and culture. At the end of the program, families return to their homes with strengthened faith and a greater appreciation for the Church and Greek culture.

 
For more information about the program or to register for Summer Camp 2010 visit www.ionianvillage.org or contact the Ionian Village Family Camp at 845.424.8175 or the Center for Family Care at familycare@goarch.org.
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 03:39:13 PM »

 Sounds like an amazing journey, and I've no doubt that one would return with a strengthened faith.  But, with a seeming emphasis on the Orthodox faith, it's seems a bit odd to hold up Greek culture along with the Orthodox faith as if to say the two are synonymous. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 04:11:31 PM »

They're like peanut butter and chocolate. Two great tastes that are even better together.
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 04:13:23 PM »

Sounds like an amazing journey, and I've no doubt that one would return with a strengthened faith.  But, with a seeming emphasis on the Orthodox faith, it's seems a bit odd to hold up Greek culture along with the Orthodox faith as if to say the two are synonymous.  

For 2,000 years it has been.  However, I don't like adding Delphi, Acro Corinth, etc. to the tour stops - I think it is Western European influence that makes us say "Greek=Plato/Socrates/12 Gods/etc" rather than "Greek=Orthodox."  (The Parthenon I get - it was a Christian church longer than it was a pagan temple).
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 05:20:48 PM »

I don't mean to sound contentious, but this is like saying that Irish culture and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  They may have influenced one another, but they're not the same.  And so it is with the Greek culture and Orthodoxy.  The two may or may not be entwined (moreso in certain parts of Greece than in others), but I submit that the two are not synonymous.  To me, saying that the two are the same, or at least compliment one another, is an ethnocentric paradigm and A. has no place in Orthodoxy and B. has lead to the jurisdictional problems we're now facing in the U.S.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any one person's feathers here, but this way of thinking has got to be dismantled, IMO.  I wonder how such an outlook looks at Galatians 3:28?
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2010, 05:57:12 PM »

I don't mean to sound contentious, but this is like saying that Irish culture and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  They may have influenced one another, but they're not the same.  And so it is with the Greek culture and Orthodoxy.  The two may or may not be entwined (moreso in certain parts of Greece than in others), but I submit that the two are not synonymous.  To me, saying that the two are the same, or at least compliment one another, is an ethnocentric paradigm and A. has no place in Orthodoxy and B. has lead to the jurisdictional problems we're now facing in the U.S.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any one person's feathers here, but this way of thinking has got to be dismantled, IMO.  I wonder how such an outlook looks at Galatians 3:28?

There was a time when Greek culture among the Greeks was all but entirely subjugated to the Orthodox Faith. Since the late 1700's, that has changed, creating what is indeed currently a conflict between a secularized-at-best/paganized-at-worst Hellenism and authentic Greek Orthodoxy. It is THIS current way of thinking that needs to be dismantled, if any.

For all that, while I agree with Fr. George's broader point, it would be a shame to be in Greece and not see the older historical sites. They have significance in terms of history, philosophy, and the development of the mindset that we identify as "Western" and civilized, and besides that are just plain cool. In the same way, I can't fathom going to Rome and visiting nothing but the churches. Just because we're Christians doesn't mean we have to pretend that there's never been anything else. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2010, 06:03:15 PM »

I don't mean to sound contentious, but this is like saying that Irish culture and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  They may have influenced one another, but they're not the same.  And so it is with the Greek culture and Orthodoxy.  The two may or may not be entwined (moreso in certain parts of Greece than in others), but I submit that the two are not synonymous.  To me, saying that the two are the same, or at least compliment one another, is an ethnocentric paradigm and A. has no place in Orthodoxy and B. has lead to the jurisdictional problems we're now facing in the U.S.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any one person's feathers here, but this way of thinking has got to be dismantled, IMO.  I wonder how such an outlook looks at Galatians 3:28?

There was a time when Greek culture among the Greeks was all but entirely subjugated to the Orthodox Faith. Since the late 1700's, that has changed, creating what is indeed currently a conflict between a secularized-at-best/paganized-at-worst Hellenism and authentic Greek Orthodoxy. It is THIS current way of thinking that needs to be dismantled, if any.

 Bless, Father

 You're probably on to something, yet I'd caution anyone who points to a culture when defining Orthodoxy (or any religion for that matter.)

 Reverencing your hand...
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2010, 06:08:50 PM »

I don't mean to sound contentious, but this is like saying that Irish culture and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  They may have influenced one another, but they're not the same.  And so it is with the Greek culture and Orthodoxy.  The two may or may not be entwined (moreso in certain parts of Greece than in others), but I submit that the two are not synonymous.  To me, saying that the two are the same, or at least compliment one another, is an ethnocentric paradigm and A. has no place in Orthodoxy and B. has lead to the jurisdictional problems we're now facing in the U.S.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any one person's feathers here, but this way of thinking has got to be dismantled, IMO.  I wonder how such an outlook looks at Galatians 3:28? 

I actually think it was only a one-sided flow: Greek was Orthodox, but Orthodoxy was not fully contained in Greek (just as it is not in Russian, Ukranian, Egyptian, etc.).  Yes, that has changed, and yes, that is significant.  But, as Fr. Anthony points out, "There was a time when Greek culture among the Greeks was all but entirely subjugated to the Orthodox Faith."  I think it is that sort of element that they are using as promotion in the trip - it's not to hold Greek-ness as a paragon of Orthodoxy, but rather to highlight those things that are inherently Orthodox in Greek culture.
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2010, 06:10:18 PM »

For all that, while I agree with Fr. George's broader point, it would be a shame to be in Greece and not see the older historical sites. They have significance in terms of history, philosophy, and the development of the mindset that we identify as "Western" and civilized, and besides that are just plain cool. In the same way, I can't fathom going to Rome and visiting nothing but the churches. Just because we're Christians doesn't mean we have to pretend that there's never been anything else. Smiley

I don't disagree generally, but I do think it can be problematic when a trip is marketed as an Orthodox camp.  I suppose it largely depends on how the sites are "handled" with respect to the Mission of the trip/camp.
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2010, 06:22:18 PM »

I don't mean to sound contentious, but this is like saying that Irish culture and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  They may have influenced one another, but they're not the same.  And so it is with the Greek culture and Orthodoxy.  The two may or may not be entwined (moreso in certain parts of Greece than in others), but I submit that the two are not synonymous.  To me, saying that the two are the same, or at least compliment one another, is an ethnocentric paradigm and A. has no place in Orthodoxy and B. has lead to the jurisdictional problems we're now facing in the U.S.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any one person's feathers here, but this way of thinking has got to be dismantled, IMO.  I wonder how such an outlook looks at Galatians 3:28?
What do you make with the fact the the culture has carried the religion along with it. In the same way the Theotokos carried Christ. Do we do away with the barrier of god in just the same way?
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2010, 06:50:58 PM »

Sounds like an amazing journey, and I've no doubt that one would return with a strengthened faith.  But, with a seeming emphasis on the Orthodox faith, it's seems a bit odd to hold up Greek culture along with the Orthodox faith as if to say the two are synonymous. 

You're in Greece. It's an opportunity to learn more about your faith, and learn more about the country you happen to be in.

I mean, it would be silly to travel to a foreign country and NOT learn about the culture while you are there.

I have many friends who have spent the summer volunteering at IVF, and they have nothing but good things to say about it.
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2010, 07:08:44 PM »

I don't mean to sound contentious, but this is like saying that Irish culture and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  They may have influenced one another, but they're not the same.  And so it is with the Greek culture and Orthodoxy.  The two may or may not be entwined (moreso in certain parts of Greece than in others), but I submit that the two are not synonymous.  To me, saying that the two are the same, or at least compliment one another, is an ethnocentric paradigm and A. has no place in Orthodoxy and B. has lead to the jurisdictional problems we're now facing in the U.S.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle any one person's feathers here, but this way of thinking has got to be dismantled, IMO.  I wonder how such an outlook looks at Galatians 3:28?
What do you make with the fact the the culture has carried the religion along with it.
Has it?

In the same way the Theotokos carried Christ.
You serious, chief?
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2010, 07:10:20 PM »

Sounds like an amazing journey, and I've no doubt that one would return with a strengthened faith.  But, with a seeming emphasis on the Orthodox faith, it's seems a bit odd to hold up Greek culture along with the Orthodox faith as if to say the two are synonymous. 

You're in Greece. It's an opportunity to learn more about your faith, and learn more about the country you happen to be in.

Highlight the word and, and you got yourself a date.  Try and make 'em synonymous and you're going by yourself.  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2010, 07:48:50 PM »

For all that, while I agree with Fr. George's broader point, it would be a shame to be in Greece and not see the older historical sites. They have significance in terms of history, philosophy, and the development of the mindset that we identify as "Western" and civilized, and besides that are just plain cool. In the same way, I can't fathom going to Rome and visiting nothing but the churches. Just because we're Christians doesn't mean we have to pretend that there's never been anything else. Smiley

I don't disagree generally, but I do think it can be problematic when a trip is marketed as an Orthodox camp.  I suppose it largely depends on how the sites are "handled" with respect to the Mission of the trip/camp.

Granted. Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2010, 08:48:27 AM »


You serious, chief?

Yes, I'm serious. From my point of view. Someone living in a Glass house shouldn't cast any stones.
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« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2010, 04:08:10 AM »


You serious, chief?

Yes, I'm serious. From my point of view. Someone living in a Glass house shouldn't cast any stones.

Your analogy is lost on me.  And I didn't mean to sound as if I were throwing stones.  Pointing out problematic situations isn't the same as throwing stones.  One is meant to correct or qualify, the other is meant to hurt or cause pain.
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« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2010, 04:40:16 AM »

I really thought Mr. Panos' goofiness was just good ol' fashioned parody.  Seems some of y'all really believe it's the ... GospelShocked  Wink 
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 09:35:44 AM »


You serious, chief?

Yes, I'm serious. From my point of view. Someone living in a Glass house shouldn't cast any stones.

Your analogy is lost on me.  And I didn't mean to sound as if I were throwing stones.  Pointing out problematic situations isn't the same as throwing stones.  One is meant to correct or qualify, the other is meant to hurt or cause pain.

From my point of view a person who is named Gabrielthecelt and is a Fenian through and through isn't the type who is looking to disassociate himself from a culture. Hence the stone remark. Now if the RCC didn't go astray we wouldn't be having this little squabble over culture because you would be very happy with yours. I truly understand that it is difficult for different ethnic groups to fully embrace a culture not of there own even if they believe in the Church that the culture has is true. The real question is if one should lose there identity to satisfy the other or should an Identity be filled with the church individually? I believe it is the latter. But because you can't change the latter "your culture" you direct it to the other "my culture". I believe your animosity should be directed to your people rather than the changing of the unchangeable, an Identity. Make Irish Orthodox priests and bishops and conquer and take back your people my friend. +Kali Anastasi
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« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 11:29:23 AM »


You serious, chief?

Yes, I'm serious. From my point of view. Someone living in a Glass house shouldn't cast any stones.

Your analogy is lost on me.  And I didn't mean to sound as if I were throwing stones.  Pointing out problematic situations isn't the same as throwing stones.  One is meant to correct or qualify, the other is meant to hurt or cause pain.

From my point of view a person who is named Gabrielthecelt and is a Fenian through and through isn't the type who is looking to disassociate himself from a culture. Hence the stone remark. Now if the RCC didn't go astray we wouldn't be having this little squabble over culture because you would be very happy with yours. I truly understand that it is difficult for different ethnic groups to fully embrace a culture not of there own even if they believe in the Church that the culture has is true. The real question is if one should lose there identity to satisfy the other or should an Identity be filled with the church individually? I believe it is the latter. But because you can't change the latter "your culture" you direct it to the other "my culture". I believe your animosity should be directed to your people rather than the changing of the unchangeable, an Identity. Make Irish Orthodox priests and bishops and conquer and take back your people my friend. +Kali Anastasi

I think you're missing GtC's point entirely.  He's not trying to denigrate Greek culture or say that people should disassociate themselves from any ethnic or cultural times one may have either by blood or choice.  His point is that, in the 21st century, Orthodoxy and Greek culture are not as intertwined as they were historically.  I know I certainly agree with him that saying a simple visit to Greece (specific Orthodox related sites such as Mt. Athos notwithstanding) will de facto enrich one's spiritual life is a bit much.
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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 11:53:00 AM »

I know I certainly agree with him that saying a simple visit to Greece (specific Orthodox related sites such as Mt. Athos notwithstanding) will de facto enrich one's spiritual life is a bit much.

But it's not a "simple visit to Greece." It's an Orthodox summer camp, designed and led by priests and theologians, including catechism classes, group worship, pilgrimages, and excursions to sites of cultural and historical interest.

Every church-related camp includes "cultural" activities that are of interest to the people attending. Sometimes it's playing football, going swimming, or watching a secular movie. In this case, it's learning about and experiencing firsthand an ancient land. Personally, I'd say the latter option is superior to the former. In either case, such things entice people to come in the first place and offer variety. To paraphrase Hamlet, there are more things in heaven and earth than theology. And, as several holy elders have said, if you want to be a saint, become a human being first.
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2010, 02:31:15 PM »


You serious, chief?

Yes, I'm serious. From my point of view. Someone living in a Glass house shouldn't cast any stones.

Your analogy is lost on me.  And I didn't mean to sound as if I were throwing stones.  Pointing out problematic situations isn't the same as throwing stones.  One is meant to correct or qualify, the other is meant to hurt or cause pain.

From my point of view a person who is named Gabrielthecelt and is a Fenian through and through isn't the type who is looking to disassociate himself from a culture. Hence the stone remark. Now if the RCC didn't go astray we wouldn't be having this little squabble over culture because you would be very happy with yours. I truly understand that it is difficult for different ethnic groups to fully embrace a culture not of there own even if they believe in the Church that the culture has is true. The real question is if one should lose there identity to satisfy the other or should an Identity be filled with the church individually? I believe it is the latter. But because you can't change the latter "your culture" you direct it to the other "my culture". I believe your animosity should be directed to your people rather than the changing of the unchangeable, an Identity. Make Irish Orthodox priests and bishops and conquer and take back your people my friend. +Kali Anastasi

 I have no animosity towards the Greek culture.  In my limited exposure thus far, I like it.  The music, the food, the coffee- check, check and double check.  But if I could boil my whole point down to a bumper sticker, it'd go a little sump'n like this-  "Greek culture ≠ Eastern Orthodox Christianity". 

No matter how many religious shrines there are in Ireland (and there are many), and no matter how much the RCC has influenced Irish culture, I'm not brazen enough to suggest the two are remotely close to being the same thing.  I don't even think I'd go as far as to say "They're like peanut butter and chocolate. Two great tastes that are even better together."  That's cute, but it seems to imply that they compliment one another.  They do not, IME.
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2010, 04:45:51 PM »

I'll have to again disagree with you because the Russians and many eastern cultures have embraced Orthodoxy and they do not call themselves Greeks. And if Greece were to be eliminated today I'm quite sure Orthodoxy would still exist, but I can certainly not deny the fact the 90% of the Epistles in the new testament were in fact written to the Greeks. As to Why God chose the Greeks. You will have to ask him.
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »

I'll have to again disagree with you because the Russians and many eastern cultures have embraced Orthodoxy and they do not call themselves Greeks. And if Greece were to be eliminated today I'm quite sure Orthodoxy would still exist, ...
Brother, I don't think you've understood a single thing I've said.
 
but I can certainly not deny the fact the 90% of the Epistles in the new testament were in fact written to the Greeks. As to Why God chose the Greeks. You will have to ask him.
God chose the Greeks?   
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