Author Topic: Old Roman Chant.  (Read 2671 times)

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Offline Christianus

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Old Roman Chant.
« on: April 06, 2010, 01:44:54 AM »
I've been reading the book " the orthodox church" by Timothy Ware, and he said that the old Roman is orthodox.
So seeing how I'm a roman by heritage, I want the orthodox church to revive the old Roman chant for the good faithful roman orthodox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHm_JMbyfdU
Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini
Blessed who cometh in name Lord's
Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.

If I become an orthodox Christian, Brethren pray that God will restore the old Latin hymns to me.
(in certain ways theologically I am a closet orthodox believer).

I hope with all my heart that I'll get to hear the divine liturgy in Latin.
Though I got to listen to the Bible being read in Latin on Pascha in an Orthodox church in Hayward.
Oh the hope that I have is so great that I just want to burst with joy when it happens.

P.s. here's a mozarabic chant, or as what others would prefer to call liturgia hispanica.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAxJbqTCr3M
I'd love to know the lyrics to what they're singing.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 02:02:12 AM by Christianus »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 03:50:46 AM »
Christus resurrexit!

There are WRO who have Gregorian chant, e.g. Holy Incarnation in Detroit.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 03:51:18 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 04:07:29 AM »
Christus resurrexit!

There are WRO who have Gregorian chant, e.g. Holy Incarnation in Detroit.
Western right orthodoxy?
I haven't really heard about them.
I'd be delighted to discover them restoring western (Latin) Christianity.
Could you tell me more about them?

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 04:16:34 AM »
Are Gregorian chants considered to be orthodox?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 09:31:46 AM »
Christus resurrexit!

There are WRO who have Gregorian chant, e.g. Holy Incarnation in Detroit.
Western right orthodoxy?
I haven't really heard about them.
I'd be delighted to discover them restoring western (Latin) Christianity.
Could you tell me more about them?
Christus resurrexit!

What would you want to know?  This section has lots of threads on them.

Are Gregorian chants considered to be orthodox?
Sure.  Why wouldn't they be?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline searn77

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 09:41:49 AM »
Christus resurrexit!

There are WRO who have Gregorian chant, e.g. Holy Incarnation in Detroit.
Western right orthodoxy?
I haven't really heard about them.
I'd be delighted to discover them restoring western (Latin) Christianity.
Could you tell me more about them?

Here's the western rite section on the Antiochian website. It has some info regarding the western rite and a list of western rite parishes in the Antiochian Archdiocese of N. America.
http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite
Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 10:21:55 AM »
One slightly related thing: Latin translation of the Paschal troparion one would sometimes hear in the Orthodox churches, is a very bad translation. I don't know who did it. I guess it originated in Russia, because I heard it sung by mostly Russian choirs or churches with Russian origins (like OCA).

Offline searn77

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 10:29:50 AM »
Are Gregorian chants considered to be orthodox?

I've actually heard Gregorian chant played on Ancient Faith Radio.
Let us the faithful now come together to praise our father, protector and teacher the pillar of the Orthodox faith and firm defender of piety even the wondrous hierarch Philaret and let us glorify our Saviour Who has granted us his incorrupt relics as a manifest sign of his sanctity.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 10:36:12 AM »
Are Gregorian chants considered to be orthodox?

I've actually heard Gregorian chant played on Ancient Faith Radio.
That gives it the approval stamp of Holy Tradition ;)

Offline SamB

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 11:08:18 AM »
Try this link for the full broadcast of that Mozarabic/Sufi dual performance from Morocco during the Festival of World Sacred Music:

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2003/04/16

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 11:32:18 AM »
Christus resurrexit!
Are Gregorian chants considered to be orthodox?

I've actually heard Gregorian chant played on Ancient Faith Radio.
That gives it the approval stamp of Holy Tradition ;)
Only to those interested in carrying on the Great Commission into the third millenium.

Btw, I gave some Mozarabic chant to the director of AFR, but I don't know if they play them (they have to get copy right clearance first).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 11:34:06 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 11:33:43 AM »
Christus resurrexit/Cristos a inviat!
One slightly related thing: Latin translation of the Paschal troparion one would sometimes hear in the Orthodox churches, is a very bad translation. I don't know who did it. I guess it originated in Russia, because I heard it sung by mostly Russian choirs or churches with Russian origins (like OCA).

What are your suggested improvements?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 08:08:33 AM »

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2010, 08:59:03 AM »
Christus resurrexit/Cristos a inviat!
One slightly related thing: Latin translation of the Paschal troparion one would sometimes hear in the Orthodox churches, is a very bad translation. I don't know who did it. I guess it originated in Russia, because I heard it sung by mostly Russian choirs or churches with Russian origins (like OCA).

What are your suggested improvements?
Well if I were the patriarch I'd only commission modern day orthodox, romance speakers who know Latin to translate the liturgy into Latin, or if possible use an ancient form of the liturgy.
The Troparion has to be translated by modern romance speakers. The English accent in Latin sounds horrible, sounds like barbarians talking.
Latin with a Spanish or Italian accent sounds amazing, so passionate, and alive, the original language of Romance.
Latin with a Portuguese or French accent sounds Celtic.. it doesn't even sound roman.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 08:59:49 AM by Christianus »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2010, 10:28:48 AM »
Christus resurrexit/Cristos a inviat!
One slightly related thing: Latin translation of the Paschal troparion one would sometimes hear in the Orthodox churches, is a very bad translation. I don't know who did it. I guess it originated in Russia, because I heard it sung by mostly Russian choirs or churches with Russian origins (like OCA).

What are your suggested improvements?
Well if I were the patriarch I'd only commission modern day orthodox, romance speakers who know Latin to translate the liturgy into Latin, or if possible use an ancient form of the liturgy.
The Troparion has to be translated by modern romance speakers. The English accent in Latin sounds horrible, sounds like barbarians talking.
Latin with a Spanish or Italian accent sounds amazing, so passionate, and alive, the original language of Romance.
Latin with a Portuguese or French accent sounds Celtic.. it doesn't even sound roman.
Christus resurrexit!

I don't know what translation Augustine is referring to, so I can't comment further on that.  I do know that the Eastern Liturgies had been translated into Latin by the Vatican for the Churches in submission to her, e.g. Ritus Orientalis.  Of course, such texts might be in that Renaissance Latin that the Vatican abandoned Ecclesiastical Latin for. Or maybe Augustine doesn't like the old Ecclesiastical Latin.

Myself, I usually use Ecclesiastical Latin, with the Roman pronunciation. When I use classical, I use classical pronunciation, which might suprise you: it has nasal vowels, for instance, just as does Portuguese and French.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline augustin717

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 11:21:55 AM »
Listen to this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8692871432545513080#
Very poor rendition of the Latin vowels especially.



Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 11:50:46 AM »
Listen to this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8692871432545513080#
Very poor rendition of the Latin vowels especially.

American high school kids pronouncing Latin poorly? What is this world coming to???
"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 12:32:12 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Listen to this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8692871432545513080#
Very poor rendition of the Latin vowels especially.

LOL. Without poor rendition of the Latin vowels, there would be no Romanian nor Italian.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline augustin717

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 01:46:16 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Listen to this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8692871432545513080#
Very poor rendition of the Latin vowels especially.

LOL. Without poor rendition of the Latin vowels, there would be no Romanian nor Italian.

Vere resurrexit!

Actually that's not true: both Romanian and Italian preserve quite well the Latin vowel system.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 02:31:33 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Listen to this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8692871432545513080#
Very poor rendition of the Latin vowels especially.

LOL. Without poor rendition of the Latin vowels, there would be no Romanian nor Italian.

Vere resurrexit!

Actually that's not true: both Romanian and Italian preserve quite well the Latin vowel system.
Christus resurrexit!

Depends on what you mean by "quite well," and what Latin you are talking about: Vulgar/Ecclesiastical Latin might be quite well, Classical Latin is a different story.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2010, 06:30:33 PM »
Christus resurrexit/Cristos a inviat!
One slightly related thing: Latin translation of the Paschal troparion one would sometimes hear in the Orthodox churches, is a very bad translation. I don't know who did it. I guess it originated in Russia, because I heard it sung by mostly Russian choirs or churches with Russian origins (like OCA).

What are your suggested improvements?
Well if I were the patriarch I'd only commission modern day orthodox, romance speakers who know Latin to translate the liturgy into Latin, or if possible use an ancient form of the liturgy.
The Troparion has to be translated by modern romance speakers. The English accent in Latin sounds horrible, sounds like barbarians talking.
Latin with a Spanish or Italian accent sounds amazing, so passionate, and alive, the original language of Romance.
Latin with a Portuguese or French accent sounds Celtic.. it doesn't even sound roman.
Christus resurrexit!

I don't know what translation Augustine is referring to, so I can't comment further on that.  I do know that the Eastern Liturgies had been translated into Latin by the Vatican for the Churches in submission to her, e.g. Ritus Orientalis.  Of course, such texts might be in that Renaissance Latin that the Vatican abandoned Ecclesiastical Latin for. Or maybe Augustine doesn't like the old Ecclesiastical Latin.

Myself, I usually use Ecclesiastical Latin, with the Roman pronunciation. When I use classical, I use classical pronunciation, which might suprise you: it has nasal vowels, for instance, just as does Portuguese and French.

I usually use the Classical pronunciation, with a Spanish or Italian accent.But I'm usually forced to use ecclesiastical,which is really Latin read using modern Italian orthography when they sing.
I've never in my life heard Latin having nasal sounds, not even with an Italian accent.
Classical Latin was not nasal like as French,or Portuguese.
You probably have an Arab accent/intonation in your Ecclesiastical Latin.

Spanish, Italian, and all most of the Italian dialects (and possibly other lesser known Latin languages)have the most preserved Latin intonation.
French and Portuguese have a foreign non roman intonation and accent.
Belief me because I know a lot of Romance languages: French, Spanish, Italian, (and I understand a bunch of other Latin languages) and most of all Latin.
This is the truth. I'm not saying it because people might say that I hate Portuguese or French.  but why would I when I'm part French and Portuguese?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 06:37:06 PM by Christianus »

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2010, 06:43:35 PM »
Christus resurrexit!
Listen to this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8692871432545513080#
Very poor rendition of the Latin vowels especially.

LOL. Without poor rendition of the Latin vowels, there would be no Romanian nor Italian.

Vere resurrexit!

Actually that's not true: both Romanian and Italian preserve quite well the Latin vowel system.
AHHH the dreaded English Accent nooooooo.
nounnei,  habi ou desperah tus,
o= oü e=ei, a= quasi ah
r= english r.
i is never j example
negotium= anglice neigoutîum numquam ut oportet negotjum.
Still I love how they're speaking Latin. so therefore I'm gonna be nice and say that they did a good job.
Latina Resurrexit, vivit et in aeternum scriptione Arboris,crucis, Iesu Christi vivet!

Luk 23:38  erat autem et superscriptio inscripta super illum litteris graecis et latinis et hebraicis HIC EST REX IVDAEORVM.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 06:47:38 PM by Christianus »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2010, 06:56:37 PM »
Hear this.
Tempus est Paschae:
http://www.trilulilu.ro/CNI/eab077f2c95c85

Offline Christianus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2010, 07:07:14 PM »
Hear this.
Tempus est Paschae:
http://www.trilulilu.ro/CNI/eab077f2c95c85

It's nice but hard to understand when they're singing for me, unless I know the song.
I have a better time understanding someone preaching in Latin (with a Spanish or Italian intonation, [did you ever understand someone in your own language with a foreign intonation?]) than when they sing. you know?

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2010, 12:37:54 AM »
You might like this, Christianus


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUOzLDWlzsY
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline augustin717

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2010, 01:40:05 AM »
Or this, since it's Eastertide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdka1WN1c8c

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Old Roman Chant.
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 02:30:33 AM »
I was hoping that this thread was focused on actual Old Roman Chant, which is very "Byzantine" in its execution, as the original video posted shows. A friend loaned me a CD of these chants, which are in Latin, but are pre-"Gregorian." They date between the 7th and 8th centuries. I was amazed that St. Pope Gregory the Dialogist's "Gregorian Chant" was actually originally very different tonally and had many parallels to the way that Greek Orthodox today chant.

This is the CD I borrowed:

http://www.amazon.com/Chants-LEglise-Rome-P%C3%A9riode-byzantine/dp/B00009IC6Q

I encourage people to play the samples to see what I am talking about. I had no idea about this. This is to me simply one more notch in the belt about Orthodoxy preserving the faith in a special way, even if a minor one, as I have no real issue with the way in which the hymns of the church are executed (so long as they are not concert pieces rather than understandable prayers). According to the booklet of the CD, this was the style used in Papal masses up until the 13th century. Apparently the form was eventually replaced with "Carolingian Chant", which is what is today called "Gregorian Chant." What you will hear in these recordings is a reconstruction of the original Gregorian Chant, when Rome was Orthodox. I find all of this completely fascinating. If anyone is interested, when I get back from my vacation next week I will type out all of the bits of information in the booklet into this thread.

Until then, here is a short Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Roman_chant
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 02:37:41 AM by Alveus Lacuna »