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Author Topic: EGYPT - CHRISTIAN CENTRE ATTACKED BY ARMY THIS MORNING  (Read 4196 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 13, 2004, 12:06:55 PM »

  www.barnabusfund.org
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EGYPT -  CHRISTIAN CENTRE ATTACKED BY ARMY THIS MORNING
  January 5, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Patmos Christian Centre has been attacked for the ninth time. In the fracas one of the employees was killed.

Today beginning at 11.30am local time the Egyptian army subjected the Patmos Christian Centre to an hour long attack. Five hundred soldiers descended upon the centre, 30km to the east of Cairo, accompanied by two bulldozers. They blocked the entrance to the compound with a large pile of stones and rubble and then they destroyed seven metres of adjoining wall.

Those working at the centre rushed out en masse to prevent the army from coming onto their property. Soldiers threw stones and bottles at the protestors. In the m+¬l+¬e a bus ploughed into a crowd who were surrounding Bishop Botros who heads the centre. The Bishop was not among those injured, but one staff member, Kirilos Daoud, was killed. Seven people are currently in hospital, one in a critical condition. The police have tried to find the bus driver, but the army appear to have taken him away. Also injured was a nun who was beaten by soldiers.

BACKGROUND

This is the ninth attack on the centre in the past six and a half years.  Soldiers from the local army unit are seeking to destroy the wall supposedly in order to conform to a new law passed on 25 January 2003 which requires all buildings to be at least 100 metres from the Cairo-Suez road.  The wall stands 50 metres from the road and was built ten years ago in full accordance with the law at the time.

Workers at the centre point out that the local army barracks' own walls also stand 50 metres from the road and no attempt has been made to demolish these.  Similarly many other buildings in the area are much closer to the road, including some 15 mosques which stand only 5 - 10 metres from the road.  Likewise no attempts have been made to demolish any of these buildings.

Church leaders say that the Minister of Defence, who has been opposed to the centre since 1997, ordered extreme and conservative Muslim officers from the local army unit to enforce the law on the Patmos Centre.  They believe the repeated attacks are a result of anti-Christian prejudice amongst Muslim officers rather than a simple disagreement over building regulations.  Other government representatives, including the President's office and the Ministry of the Interior, have intervened positively in the past to protect the centre from intimidation and attacks by the military.

The Patmos Centre has been serving the local community in Egypt for fifteen years.  The centre is providing care and support for mentally and physically handicapped children and orphans. The centre is legally registered with the Egyptian authorities.  It receives between 500 - 1000 visitors every day.
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2004, 12:12:06 PM »

The fanatics in Egypt are worse than the Ottomans were!

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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2004, 09:44:33 AM »

I just wonder why people are surprised when Muslims do things like this . . . .
After all Islam is a religion of peace . . . .rotfl
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2004, 11:20:15 AM »

I just wonder why people are surprised when Muslims do things like this . . . .
After all Islam is a religion of peace . . . .rotfl


I hear the same thing about Christianity all the time, though.  And from the examples that millions of Christians of all stripes, laity and clergy, give, it's hardly surprising people think that, especially in this country and in Europe.
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2004, 01:35:25 PM »

schultz: please clarify your last post.  Are you saying that the claims of Christianity as a religion of peace are suspect? Or are you agreeing with the sarcasm I placed in my last post?  I’m a bit conf-oozled. Wink
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2004, 01:56:33 PM »

The claims of Christianity as a religion of being the religion of peace and love are not suspect as far as I'm concerned.  Indeed, I spend a great deal of my time trying to make my non-believing friends see this.

However, when one looks at the treatment of Christians by other Christians since the ever-popular Crusades, we see rife hypocrisy amongst those who claim to love their neighbor more than themselves!  And I'm not talking about nominal Christians, either, but those who profess to be truly living the Way.  Jurisdictional disputes and ethnic enclave mentalities spring to mind, as do the wonderful vagante churches we so love to talk about here.  Regardless of what people may say, there is true hatred springing from an astonishing number of people.  "You're not Orthodox enough!  You're ecumenical!  You're a damn heretic!"  

Sure, we joke about it here, and rightly so, but to see this coming from so called Christians is mind-boggling to the non-believer, and "evidence" for the anti-believer who feels that Christianity is evil.  Yes, that's right, evil.  Believe it or not, people actually think that!  I hear it at least once a week while doing my little part to evangelize to groups of people who reject authority and religion on principle.  And, frankly, they have compelling points regarding the examples we as Christians oftentimes set.  And I don't mean our own personal weaknesses, either.  I'm talking about actions such as that one bishop we're discussing in another thread who said good Orthodox kids shouldn't go to school with Papists and Protestants.  We, of course, see him as over-reacting, but how does that look to someone who sees Christianity as a religion of division and not peace and love?  PRetty damning evidence, to say the least, especially since its coming from a "mainstream" bishop.

I know a little about Islam and from what I do know, it teaches very much the same as the other two great monotheistic faiths.  Sure, there are some whacky things in the Koran about the conversion of the unbeliever, but are there not some "whacky" things in our own Bible and in the Canons?  We say we follow them because we have faith in them, but oftentimes we don't follow them ourselves because they may seem too harsh.  The same goes for the prescriptions in the Koran for unbelievers for the vast majority of Muslims.

Much like you and I, most Muslims just want to follow their religion and live in peace, worshiping God as they and we see fit.  POLITICAL circumstances have made Islam the boogeyman, as they always have.  For all their supposed piety, I have no trouble believing that the Sultans of old expanded their empire not because of any edict of the Koran, but because they coveted POWER, an earthly power, much like the eventual monarchic tone of the Papacy was created to exercise an EARTHLY power (and I'm a Catholic!).  

Are Islam and Christianity on the same footing?  No, of course not.  Christ is THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life.  But the understanding of Islam by the average run of the mill Muslim does not require him to go out and kill the infidel.  I've known far too many Muslims in my life to believe that.

How many Muslims are you acquainted with and how many do you truly know personally?
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2004, 02:38:28 PM »

I just wonder why people are surprised when Muslims do things like this . . . .
After all Islam is a religion of peace . . . .rotfl

Well like I said, the Egyptian army is worse than the classical Ottomans (i.e. not after the Young Turks took over) because for the most part except for a few churches turned into mosques they left things alone (and charged lots of taxes to rape people financially).

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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2004, 03:45:06 PM »


To any one who thinks that islam is a peaceful religion, they should read the story of the new martyr and witness for Christ - Evgeny who was beheaded on May 23, 1996 HIS Birthday for refusing to deny Chrsit, convert to Islam, and take off his Cross!

Not only did these peaceful Moslems behead him on his birthday but they mailed his head to his mother.  She in turn, mortgaged her apartment and went to Chechneya to find the rest of his remians which she identified by the Cross he refused to remove -

http://english.pravda.ru/society/2003/01/08/41724.html

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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2004, 07:43:53 PM »

I am sad that we diverted attention from the original subject to prove to those who think that Islam is peaceful how wrong they are. Instead of praying for the martyred christians in persecuted islamic countries, some liberal (sadly  christians) would come out and defend Islam and trash christianity.
I will respond to those claims because some non-arabic speaking people, who content themselves with the twisted and spinned translations of Islamic apologetics, propagate the same lies of muslims, rather than to research the truth hidden by Muslims from the WEST.
Here we go: (all quotes are from Schultz post)

Quote
The claims of Christianity as a religion of being the religion of peace and love are not suspect as far as I'm concerned

That's a contradiction. While you claim to be an evangelist, you still have doubts about christianity being a holy and peaceful religion. I would suggest that you try first convince yourself before you convince others.
And, while you are in the process of doing so, would you please give me any verses from the bible or quotes from the early Church fathers which supports violence and killing?
I can give you an arsenal of Quranic verses and Haddith which orders the muslims, the same muslims you are defending, to do the following:
1- Fight non-believers into submission and kill them, convert them into Islam by sword or make them pay tribute (with humilation) to the muslim forces.
2- Not to make a christian or a Jew a leader but he is labeled a "Zummi", a very humiliting term.
3- Non-muslim women are spoils of wars for muslims, their houses and property are for muslims, and their children are slaves for muslims.
4- Many other scandals and perverted teachings, like allowing homosexuality, adultry, child abuse, perverted sex, ........

Muslims literally put these commands of Allah into action when they conquered the world.
When you make such claims about christianity, please support your claims by
aspects from the doctrine of christianity. I ask you to go and read about Islam from its sources.

Quote
Indeed, I spend a great deal of my time trying to make my non-believing friends see this.
See what? That christianity is not peaceful? How does this fit in evangelism? Clarify please.
Quote
However, when one looks at the treatment of Christians by other Christians since the ever-popular Crusades, we see rife hypocrisy amongst those who claim to love their neighbor more than themselves
What you are discussing here is actions of kings, princes, and sometimes popes , but I am discussing the doctrines itself. You won't hear any excuses for the Crusades, but please, give your audience some credit and mention at least the atrocitites committed by the islamic armies in the conquest of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Constatinopolis, and all these great christian cultures who were turned into islamic societies by the SWORD......
Quote
Regardless of what people may say, there is true hatred springing from an astonishing number of people.  "You're not Orthodox enough!  You're ecumenical!  You're a damn heretic!"
What does this have to do with killing Copts in Egypt?
Quote
And, frankly, they have compelling points regarding the examples we as Christians oftentimes set.  And I don't mean our own personal weaknesses, either.  I'm talking about actions such as that one bishop we're discussing in another thread who said good Orthodox kids shouldn't go to school with Papists and Protestants
Are these compelling points in your opinion? I am not defending the bishop who said that, but do you put one off-remark to counterbalance hundred of aspects that orthodoxy is the right faith or that christianity has done so good to human kind? I fail again to see your point.
Quote
We, of course, see him as over-reacting, but how does that look to someone who sees Christianity as a religion of division and not peace and love?  PRetty damning evidence, to say the least, especially since its coming from a "mainstream" bishop.
We hope that someday the body of Christ will be unified again, and we all pray for that, but what does this have to do with Islam and its corrupt teachings? You are defending Islam by trashing christianity, very strange approach.....
Quote
I know a little about Islam and from what I do know
Then please go educate yourself about Islam more, from the arabic resources, before you start defending this defiled religion. If you need sites which expose Islam from the arabic sources of the religion, let me know. But before you go on defending Islam, try to learn about it, for the sake of your family, that they might not be forced one day to change their faith to Islam. Frankly speaking, failing to see the dangers of Islam open the gate wide open for them to change the religious map in the West, through their high birth rate and showing the "peaceful" face of Islam until they grow their teeth. You will know the truth then, but it usually very late.
Quote
it teaches very much the same as the other two great monotheistic faiths
WHAT !!!!!! What does Islam have in common with christianity, sir? They deny the divinity of Christ, they deny the Trinity, Islam's God is a military God who finds it amusing to kill unbelievers and rape women, there is no salvation in Islam, there is actually no guarantee that you will be in HEAVEN at all (it is up to Allah's last minute decision)....
On the other hand, husbands can beat their wives (provided they don't break their bones  Angry), they can marry their daughters from adultry  Angry, they can marry a baby girl (a few months and up)  Angry, they can kill infidels ( christians and Jews included) , among many others perverted teachings.
In islamic paradise, a man has a constant erection and has 70 virgin at his disposal, who gain their virginity instantly, the virgins have a one mile big "butt", homosexuality is allowed in islamic paradise......
Sorry for the elaboration, but such a remark as to draw any analogy between christianity and Islam is very uneducated and needed quick correction.  
If you need evidence on the above mentioned, I will be more than happy to do so. Note that ARabic is my mother tongue, and I read from the islamic resources right away.
Quote
Sure, there are some whacky things in the Koran about the conversion of the unbeliever, but are there not some "whacky" things in our own Bible and in the Canons?
Whacky??? That's it? Killing our brothers with the SWORD of ISLAM is whacky? Killing about 2 millions Armenian in 1916 by muslim TURKS is just whacky? Having millions of martyrs killed in every islamic nation, specially from among the Copts, over a bloody history of the rule of Islam is just whacky?

Where, and in the Canons of which church, do you find anything which suggests the killings of non-christians?
Quote
Much like you and I, most Muslims just want to follow their religion and live in peace, worshiping God as they and we see fit
No, you are wrong. Muslims, when they don't know anything about Islam, are peaceful, or at least normal. The strange thing about Islam is, that the closer you get to know its doctrines, and the more zealous you want to follow it, it fills you with hate to everything else which is non-islamic. It is the doctrine of Islam to kill Jews (the Jews in particular are labeled Monkeys and Pigs in the Quran), to kill christians. BIN LADEN is actually a good muslims, a faithful one, because he committed himself to the teachings of Islam and realized them.
Quote
POLITICAL circumstances have made Islam the boogeyman, as they always have
No, sir. Political circumstances are pushing to cover up for the atrocities of Islam all over the world and to hide the corrupt teachings of violence against non-muslims in the very heart of Islamic doctrines. They use people like you to propagate their lies.
Quote
For all their supposed piety, I have no trouble believing that the Sultans of old expanded their empire not because of any edict of the Koran, but because they coveted POWER, an earthly power, much like the eventual monarchic tone of the Papacy was created to exercise an EARTHLY power (and I'm a Catholic!).  
The POPE of ROME acted in defiance to the biblical truth about separating the religion from the state. This idea is not rejected in Islam, in fact, it is the core of Islam to be a state first where they apply the islamic rules. Again, I fail to understand how mistakes of Christians makes excuses for Islam.
Quote
How many Muslims are you acquainted with and how many do you truly know personally?
Thousands. I lived among them, I saw firsthand how many of my collegues changed from "peaceful" to "fanatics" when they dedicated their lives to the true Islam. I saw Islam in action and in control, and not the peaceful Islam version you see in the West.

Please go and read history. Read about Muhamed, how he appeased the infidels until he became powerful enough, and then slaughtered them.  Read how he mastered to win christians and Jews by peace treaties, only to kill them after he used the peace to gain power. This appraoch is the model muslims are using in the WEST now.
YOU WILL KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN ISLAM BECOMES DOMINANT IN THE WEST. YOU WILL REALIZE YOUR MISTAKE, WHEN YOU SEE THAT THE SHEEP BECAME A WOLF. IT WILL BE TOO LATE, THOUGH......


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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2004, 08:57:16 PM »

Shultz: according to Islam you as a non-muslim have three choices, convert, accept subjigation or death by the sword.  That's it.  anyone who claims that Islam can peacefully co-exist with any other faith is either deceived or deceiving.

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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2004, 01:57:21 PM »


To anyone who even remotely is willing to believe the propaganda that Islam is a 'peaceful' religion, I recommend they read a book called - 'The Sword of the Prophet -ISLAM'  by Serge Trifkovic.  Also ask any christian from Greece and the Balkans about the 'Jannisaries'!

Also recommend a short booklet entitled - Islam Unveiled by a former Moslem - Abdullah Al-Araby.

The following are quotes from the "Hadith" which is an important part of Islamic law and considered as second in importance to the 'Quran'; its teachings are just as binding.

REGARDING WOMEN'S RIGHTS:

Women are deficient in mind and religion:  Mohammed asked some women, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?"  The women said, "yes".  He said, "This is because of the deficiency of the woman's mind." - Vol 3:826

Mohammed to women:  "I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you." - Vol 2:541

The majority of people in hell are women:  Mohammed said, "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women." - Vol 1:28, Vol 2:161, Vol 7:124

Women are bad Omens:  Mohammed said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

REGARDING HUMAN RIGHTS

Islam is to be imposed by force:  Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say, "NONE HAS THE RIGHT TO BE WORSHIPPED BUT ALLAH, and whoever says, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, HIS LIFE AND PROPERTY WILL BE SAVED BY ME."  (Otherwise it will not) -  Vol 4:196

Apostacy is punishable by death:  Mohammed said, "Whosoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." - Vol 9:57

A Muslim should not be killed if he kills a non-Muslim:  Mohammed said, "No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (Infidel). - Vol 9:50

Ethnic cleansing is permitted:  Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and  His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expell you from this land (the Arabian Peninsula), so if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it."  - Vol 4:392

Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were:  "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims [including Christians]) out of the Arabian Peninsula."  - Vol 5:716

In Islam Paradise is the place where a Muslim man will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging constantly in sex with numerious beautiful women, and even satisfying his homosexual fantasies.  The Quran doesn't mention any rewards for Muslim women in paradise. - Surah 52:17, 19, 20 & 22-24

People are forced to accept Mohammed's message:  "Fight those who beieve not in Allah nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are)  f the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." - Surah 9:29


You can learn more about Islam on the 'The Islam Review' website -

http://www.IslamReview.com

ISLAM IS ANYTHING BUT A PEACEFUL RELIGION!

Another new book out regarding America and Islam

http://www.booklocker.com/books/1413.html



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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2004, 02:34:22 PM »

Quote
That's a contradiction. While you claim to be an evangelist, you still have doubts about christianity being a holy and peaceful religion.

Stavro,

I have no doubts about Christianity.  Nor did I ever imply this.  I said the claims of Christianity being a religion of peace and love are NOT suspect.  

Please learn the skill of reading comprehension before you accuse me of not knowing what I believe in.

I guess my point is that Muslims, IN MY EXPERIENCE (read: in the Mid-Atlantic USA), are a peaceful lot.  I don't live in the Middle East, my faith has never been threatened by Muslims, nor will it ever be.  Your experience is different, and very real to you, I might add, as it should be.  I find my posts to not be defending Islamic doctrine, but Muslims in particular.  You take that as my defending the babblings of an insane illiterate shepherd who heard voices in his head in a cave in the Arabian desert.  That's not my intention.  

I just don't like seeing people judge other people who's only crime is thoughtcrime.  That's God's job, not mine and not yours, unless you happen to be Big Brother.

Quote
They use people like you to propagate their lies.

Sir, no one USES me.  Nor do I like being accused of being used.

I'm increasingly finding that the only non-sanctimonious person here, who isn't a self-righteous blowhard who doesn't get his knickers in a twist over binary text on a screen argued by armchair theologians, myself included, is our good friend Peter.

There I go changing the subject again.  Sue me.
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« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 02:41:42 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2004, 02:51:31 PM »

I think its time for them to start being Militant Christians
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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2004, 04:21:30 PM »

[I don't live in the Middle East, my faith has never been threatened by Muslims, nor will it ever be. ]

And, pray tell, how can you be so sure of that.....  Most people who come from countries where Isam became, through force, the predominate religion, will find that statement a bit naive!


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« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2004, 04:27:35 PM »

How can I be sure?

Of course I cannot be 100% sure.  But do you honestly believe that Islam will become the dominant faith in the Americas (not just the USA) by force??

That is the most laughable thing I have ever heard.  The only way that would happen in this country would be when all of us are dead.  This may not be the most faith-based nation on the planet, but one thing we will not tolerate, atheist, agnostic and Christians and Jews of all stripes, is faith by force.
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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2004, 04:35:02 PM »

[But do you honestly believe that Islam will become the dominant faith in the Americas (not just the USA) by force??]

Why not....  That's how it became the predominate religion in every other country it invaded...  If enough Americans continue to be a naive as you, it won't take long..  You show a complete lack of comprehension regarding Islam and it's purpose and goals.

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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2004, 04:49:33 PM »

And, to quote Darth Vader, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

People like "me" don't want to be ruled or forced to do anything, Orthodoc.  And that goes for Christianity, too.  "People like me" will not be forced into accepting Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, or any other religion.

We are Americans, proud and free.  But first and foremost, I am a Christian and I will die that way.  I can say that with utmost sincerity, having been beaten at the hands of militant atheists already for that belief, so much so I spent a good two weeks in the hospital.  

I will not apologize for my faith in the ability for the American people to come together when truly threatened.  Please tell me, logistically speaking, how nations the size of New York state and smaller can threaten the United States into accepting Islam as the dominant religion?  We are not some second world desert state populated by a semi-nomadic people who make as much in one lifetime as your or I do in a year.  Do you have so little faith in the United States to think that we can be bullied into accepting Islam?
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2004, 05:11:07 PM »

[Do you have so little faith in the United States to think that we can be bullied into accepting Islam?]

People in the Balkans said the same thing.  So did the Christians in the middle east.

In an age where Nativity scenes are no longer allowed while other non Christian symbols are OK, I still stand by my conviction that  Islam could take over if we let our guard down and have people a naive as you defending them as peace loving people when their whole history says otherwise.  Did you know the word 'Islam' means 'submission'

Do some reading. Access the sites I recommended.  There are already instances where they were teaching Islam in some of the California schools where kids were required to adopt Moselm names and garb for a month.

What do you think would happen if the reverse was instituted and these same kids were required to adopt christian names and learn the basics of Christianity

It's naive people like you that allow things like this to happen Schultz.

Your faith in America is commendable but don't turn our back my friend.  The fight for America has just begun!

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(Got t apologize but my question mark key is not functioning.)
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2004, 05:19:35 PM »

It's naive people like you that allow things like this to happen Schultz.


Sir, I respectfully ask you to please stop calling me naive.  You are just as "naive" as I am, to think that the American people will allow the establishment of a religion, especially one as foreign to the Western mindset as Islam, especially in this godless era we live in.  You seem to think that jsut because the government won't allow the construction of a creche at a public library, we'll soon be answering the call of the prayer at 5pm.  

Not bloody likely.  In fact, it is just as likely that we'll invade Cuba and set up American hegemony there.

After all, that's happened in the past.

My back is not turned, and I, as an American, would even stop the establishment of a Christian religion in this country.

Yes you heard that right.  Freedom of conscience is the most important freedom we can have, because from it springs a true faith and a true love.  

But I'm just a graceless, naive heretic who doesn't know his head from his rear because I still commemorate the Pope and I'm not Slavic so I can't understand why I should hate the papacy (which you told me many moons ago when I first joined here).  

In short, I'm a twit, so anything I say you can just write off as naive foolish nonsense from a papist.

Good day to you, sir.
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2004, 05:39:47 PM »

[But I'm just a graceless, naive heretic who doesn't know his head from his rear because I still commemorate the Pope and I'm not Slavic so I can't understand why I should hate the papacy (which you told me many moons ago when I first joined here). ]

Please provide me with the post where I told you should hate the papacy Schultz.


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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2004, 05:47:53 PM »

Maybe not hate the papacy, but an attempt to make me feel guilty

I'd also like to point out that, during that thread, Mr. Zollars AGREED with me!!!

And Orthodoc stooped to namecalling then, too.
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2004, 05:53:57 PM »


PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ISLAM GETS THE UPPER HAND IN ANY TERRITORY.  AND ALL THIS WAS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE ISLAMISTS UNDER THE SO CALLED PROTECTION OF BOTH NATO & KFOR!

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Russian Orthodox Fund Horrified with Events in Kosovo
01/15/2004 20:05

Since 1999, over 120 Orthodox churches have been destroyed in the region The Russian Andrey Pervozvany Fund will develop a report for the UN,PACE and UNESCO on the critical situation in Kosovo and Metohja.

President of the Fund Alexander Melnik told journalists on Tuesday that the situation is particularly critical for Serbs, the local population of the region.

After his visit to Kosovo Alexander Melnik said: "We knew that destruction of Orthodox relics was catastrophic, but did not expect it was so dangerous. We say this is genocide. We expect to draw close attention
of public and political organizations, Europe's influential political and public commissions to the problem of Kosovo Serbs."

On January 3-8, a delegation of the Fund together with Russian journalists went to Kosovo and Metohja for a humanitarian mission. They visited densely populated Serb settlements and Orthodox relics that remained intact.
Since 1999, over 120 Orthodox churches have been destroyed in the region.
The president of the Fund was deeply depressed with what he observed during the mission. He says that today Serbs live in a modern ghetto, suffer from unemployment and lack of medical care. Alexander Melnik says that Serbs
can travel about the native region only being protected by KFOR and the international police.

Over one thousand of Serbs have been killed and over 250 thousand people have been ousted from their houses since peacemakers were introduced in Kosovo in 1999. The president of the Orthodox Fund says that today 130
thousand Serbs live in Kosovo and only 150 Serbs live in one house protected by the police in Pristina.
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2004, 05:57:47 PM »

Umm...yeah.

It's genocide.

I believe everyone knows that already.

I still stand by my assertion that lust for power is the reason behind every single atrocity committed in the world.  It only hides behind the guise of religion, or politics, or economics.  Perhaps its the radical in me that believes that.  I don't know.  I'm just entirely uncomfortable with painting an entire group of people with the same brush.

You seem comfortable doing that, though.  Muslims, Roman Catholics, Protestants...
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2004, 06:07:02 PM »

[Maybe not hate the papacy, but an attempt to make me feel guilty.]

I rest my case!   What I gave was historical truth and facts.

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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2004, 07:12:15 PM »

Quote
Please learn the skill of reading comprehension before you accuse me of not knowing what I believe in.
I quoted from your post, sir. Phrases like :
1- The claims of Christianity as a religion of being the religion of peace and love are not suspect as far as I'm concerned. Indeed, I spend a great deal of my time trying to make my non-believing friends see this.
2- And, frankly, they have compelling points regarding the examples we as Christians oftentimes set

...can not be justified in any context, that's why I found it surprising.

Quote
I just don't like seeing people judge other people who's only crime is thoughtcrime
Islam is not a thought crime.Can you defend Nazis using the same argument?
We are judging the islamic crimes, the killings of millions of christians in islamic countries, the destruction of churches, imposing the islamic faith on others and all the other atrocities committed by muslims. Unlike other religions, and very much like the Nazis in Germany, Islamic doctrines encourage killing, rape and everything defiled. A good muslim is a BIN LADEN.
Quote
You take that as my defending the babblings of an insane illiterate shepherd who heard voices in his head in a cave in the Arabian desert.
That's an over simplification, which can have very bad results. This insane shepherd you are talking about is in control of 1/4 of the world, and he killed many of your brothers by his own hands, or through his teachings, for 20 centuries. Please go and read the islamic rules and doctrines to have an idea about Islam and what it teachs.
Quote
That's God's job, not mine and not yours, unless you happen to be Big Brother.
Are you saying that exposing Islam is judging ? To show that Islam is a defiled religion, full of fornications and violence and it does not make any sense, is judging? When we say that killing Jews and Christians on the hands of Muslims is "wrong", is that judging ?  
Do you accuse St. Athanasius Contra Mundum of being a sinner by judging  the teachings of Arius to be corrupt ? Do you accuse St.Cyril , the pillar of faith, of judging because he opposed Nestorios's views?
Imagine if St.Athansius would have followed your path in not fighting against Arius , because " he does not judge people" ? You would be probably denying the divinity of Christ.
Speaking of Arius, do you know that Muhamed was a follower of Arius' teachings, and that's why Christ is the only perfect creature in Islam ? Just a comment .
Quote
There I go changing the subject again.  Sue me
Smiley.
Quote
I still stand by my assertion that lust for power is the reason behind every single atrocity committed in the world
I agree with this statement, but we have to differentiate between whether people use the religion to gain power (like Popes in the Middle Ages) and their actions is condemned by the Bible and the same religion they claim they follow, and between muslims who are killing to gain power and are praised by their religion.
Go and ask any muslim, who is faithful and honest to his beliefs and would not colour his answers with a Western flavour, the following questions:
1- If in power, will you impose islamic law ?
A: Yes, accoring to the Quran and Haddith, we have to impose islamic law
2- Will you cancel democracy?
A: Yes, there is no democracy in Islam, only submission.
3- What will be the situation of non-muslim in your state?
A: Either be muslims, or be killed, or pay around 50% of their income to the islamic ruler, or be killed.
4- Can a muslim deny Islam?
A: He will be killed after giving him three days to repent. To be a good muslim, you have to kill apostates.

This is the religion. To be a good muslim, you have to kill non-muslims. To be a good muslim, you should be violent in the normal life to non-muslim.
Of course, being from the Mid-Atlantic, you will not hear "Fatwas" from the prominant Imams in the Islamic world, labeling any muslim who say to a Christian Merry Christmas, an Infidel. A muslim cannot be nice to non-muslims.
A christian's property, his family (women specially) are toys for pleasure for the muslim. This is the heart of Islam, and killing of non-muslim is a very good act in Islam.
All arabic newspapers, hail the suicide bombers as martyrs. Are they all fooled? No, they are good muslims who regard suicide bombers who kill Jewish babies as good muslims, acting according to the Quran.

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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2004, 07:30:07 PM »

One last word:
The conversion to Islam did take place with brutal force. The Copts, in the year 640 a.d.,when the muslims entered Egypt, numbered 6 million men. In the census in 12 century, they numbered 4 million. Some were converted, but the rest was killed.
There were mascacres for Copts in every century, and not necessarily by the islamic rulers, sometimes it would be a result of a violent Friday prayer cermon by a fanatic Imam who oves the masses to destroy churches and kill Copts.

You have so much faith in American values, and you are right. But muslims are by far more sophisticated now. It is not anymore the barefoot muslim of the 7th century who holds the sword in one hand and the Quran in the other, and orders you to submit to Islam.  

The strategy Muslims in America and the West use to propagate Islam is called "CANCER STRATEGY" (the expression was first used by  the late Sayed Kutb, the God father of the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt, to describe the invasion of the West by Islam).
They use a very well established islamic rule, from the Quran and Haddith, called TEKIA in arabic . It is translated : (Lying for Good purposes) in English.
1. They translate the Quran to fit the Western taste and values. No mention of killing of apostates or Jews or Christians.
2- They spin the verses which shows the very low status of women in the Islam, because it would not be appropriate to ask husbands to beat their wives in the West.
3- The Imams of mosques in the West, until Islam gains power, should be peaceful and condemn all terror attacks on the West. That is why it is common practice to hear the same islamic figure say one thing in arabic on Al-Jazeera, and another thing in English to CNN.
4- Use the immigration laws to immigrate many muslims to these countries. In 20 years, the muslims through their high birth rates in France have increased to 10 % of the French population. SImilar patterns are in progress in the US, CANADA and the rest of West Europe.
5- Insert muslims in the influential institutions: The Army, Education,.......
6- If you can, overthrow government by force (why not?). If you can't, use democracy to control the government. Then, cancel democracy and declare an islamic state. EVEN IF YOU FIND IT NAIVE TO DO SO IN THE USA, HITLER HAS DONE SO IN A VERY CULTURUAL AND FREEDOM LOVING NATION, NOT VERY LONG AGO.

HERE IS WHEN ISLAM TURNS TO ITS REAL FACE. At this stage, you can't do anything about it. The cancer has reached every part of your body.

This pattern was repeated from the begin of Islam. Muhamed used this pattern to appease the "infidels" of Mekka until he immigrated to Madina, organized a powerful army and then showed his real face to his own tribe and annilated them or forced them into Islam.

Muslims don't have any loyality to the countries they live in, only to ISLAM.

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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2004, 08:38:26 PM »

A good book on Islam is ONWARD MUSLIM SOLDIERS by robert spencer
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2004, 10:36:21 AM »

You still have failed to show how...

Quote
1- The claims of Christianity as a religion of being the religion of peace and love are not suspect as far as I'm concerned. Indeed, I spend a great deal of my time trying to make my non-believing friends see this.
2- And, frankly, they have compelling points regarding the examples we as Christians oftentimes set.

...can lead you to believe that I have a broken faith.  The first quote says pretty straight away that Christianity is not suspect to me and I try to show my non-believing friends, those who don't believe in ANY religion, that Christ is The Way, the Truth and the Life.  As for the second comment, perhaps I should have been more clear in saying that they have compelling arguments for NON-believers.

Am I missing something here that someone else can point out?

And then you brought up the Nazis.

It reminds me of that Mad About You episode where all you have to do is compare someone to the Nazis, and your point is validated.

I would defend an ignorant boneheaded Nazis right to believe whatever he believes in...that's what freedom of conscience is all about.  But once that belief crosses into action, I'm there with a clenched fist to stop it.

If that bonehead shows up where I am and begins to intimidate people and/or engage in full blown violent actions, you can damn well be sure I'll put a stop to it.  I am heavily involved in the Anti-Racist Action movement in Baltimore, where we have a slight problem with Northern Hammerskins, a group of racist skinheads who enjoy making their presence known.  Their beliefs in Hitler have gone past their head and their actions speak for them, not their words.  Not a week goes by, not one week, where I don't find myself embroiled in at least one streetfight...yes you read that right, streetfight...with these goons.  The ER staff at Mercy Hospital in Baltimore know me by name now thanks to my many visits there for stitches and other medical attention.  So don't you dare presume to tell me I won't fight if need be when thought becomes action.  I get alot of flack from my colleagues at ARA for my stance on freedom of conscience, but my actions far outweigh any objection they have.

Hitler's rise to power was directly related to the fact that Germany was a defeated power after the First World War.  England and France totally humiliated the German people, a people whose culture will not allow them to be humiliated.  The political and economic climate in post-war Germany was responsible for the rise of the Austrian madman.  That climate does not exist in the United States.  In the extremely unlikely chance that it would due to war, the entire world would go to hell in a handbasket.  There's no way to make this sound humble, but the fate of the United States is the fate of the world, as we are the only remaining Superpower.  But I'm sure the liberals and the non-Americans on this board will try to roast me alive for such a "reactionary" statement.  Fire away, boys and girls, fire away.

You may see Islam as a cancer that will infect the hearts and minds of the American people.  I don't.  It never will.  Sure, it might infect the minds of some liberal PC types who want to show the world how peaceful Islam is and make their students take on Arabic names.  That's a small minority.  By your own comparison, the militant survivalist and separatist fools in Montana who espouse Christian Identity and are stockpiling weapons for the upcoming race war will infect the hearts and minds of the American people.

I don't see that happening either.  Nor will it ever.  Perhaps my faith in the American is misplaced in your eyes.  But your lack of faith in the same saddens me.
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2004, 10:53:27 AM »

Well as a non-American I have one or two hesitancies about a couple of phrases in your post.

But for your main point - I never saw anything wrong with what you said at the beginning and still don't. In fact I agree with it completely.

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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2004, 11:45:58 AM »

This world needs more racists IMHO.  We should ALL be racists - HUMAN racists.
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2004, 04:18:57 AM »

Quote
I don't see that happening either.  Nor will it ever.  Perhaps my faith in the American is misplaced in your eyes.  But your lack of faith in the same saddens me.
I have faith in the American system and in the true american people who love America and therefore make sure that the system is kept. Muslims first loyality is to Islam, and Islam calls for the destruction of the West, America included. When America, maybe 100 years from now, becomes dominated by muslims, expect the annilation of Jews and Christians, or at least humilate them. IT IS IN THE QURAN. Me and you will not live long enough to see it, but our grandchildren will.
Will the American values prevail? At this time, there will be no american values, these values will be slowly, but surely, replaced by islamic values. The american people will no longer be majority any more, there will be a majority of muslims who swear loyality to Islam and the teachings of Muhamed.  
For some reason, people fail to understand history. Romans in the first century b.c. and first couple of centuries a.d. would have never imagined the fall in 478 a.d. to the barbarian german tribes. How could they? They also had a great civilization , a great culture, great faith in the roman spirit and I consider them the equal of the US in their time. Yet they fell, and their fall was not a result of one war, weakness crept gradually.

The American superpower is not infallable, sir. There was the Pharaonic, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman and later the Byzantine civilizations, and all of them can claim the title of "The greatest country at their time." Yet the are gone when they did not protect the values which made them great. Why do you expect America to be an exception, if they allow muslims in their system to destroy it ?

And the comparison with the Nazis holds in many aspects. Nazism is not an only idea, it is a movement which results, sooner or later, in actions. Could a Nazi in 1933 be peaceful the Jews? They don't show their true face in the Mid-Atlantic because they can't. But the moment they come to power, expect a 3rd Reich duplica. What will prevent them?
The same with Islam. I tried to explain it to you in the last two posts, but it seems you choose to ignore the facts and examples I gave, from islamic history, to show that this is the pattern Islam uses. Be peaceful when weak, build up your strength, show the violent true face of Islam when powerful enough.  

In any case, if people ignore the danger of Islam, they will get to experience it. I think to experience the oppression of Islam is the only way to convince people who ignore history. I thought 9/11 was a wake-up call, but I was wrong.  
Have a great day.
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2004, 12:07:55 PM »

You're average American having abandoned their faith - or atleast the coperate and public aspects of it, cannot grasp the nature of Islamic solidarity.
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2004, 12:23:51 PM »

You're average American having abandoned their faith - or atleast the coperate and public aspects of it, cannot grasp the nature of Islamic solidarity.

That's a BIG 10-4. good buddy!

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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2004, 12:31:01 PM »

I think it is more of a cultural thing.

Your average American can't help but see things through the fog of the "I'm OK, You're OK" and "Live and Let Live" ideaology that he/she has been raised in. It is just incomprehensible to us that any educated, civilized people would be fanatical about anything. We have been raised in a lukewarm semi-socialist soup in order to minimize conflict.
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2004, 01:09:38 PM »

Tom: that's what I said. lol
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