OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 08:58:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Lady of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia.  (Read 5229 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,426


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2010, 10:56:39 AM »


Now, in regards to the consecration of Russia, this was about Communism and the errors of Communism, not the individuals.

I'm still not seeing the problem in the message.

That's how I have always understood the message.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,426


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2010, 10:56:39 AM »

I think there is some difference in perception of what it means to have a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

This simply means to enter into contemplation of our Lady's suffering, and to bring ourselves to join in that suffering and let ourselves be transformed by that suffering. The Blessed Virgin's suffering is NEVER independent of her Son. It is united to her Son, and so through contemplation of that suffering, we have another avenue of entering into the mystery of the suffering of the Lord.

Really, that's all it is. Nothing diabolical about it.


What the Vatican teaches about it is:

Quote
In order that, properly speaking, there may be devotion to the Heart of Mary, the attention and the homage of the faithful must be directed to the physical heart itself. However, this in itself is not sufficient; the faithful must read therein all that the human heart of Mary suggests, all of which it is the expressive symbol and the living reminder: Mary's interior life, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for her God, her maternal love for her Divine Son, and her motherly and compassionate love for her sinful and miserable children here below. The consideration of Mary's interior life and the beauties of her soul, without any thought of her physical heart, does not constitute our devotion; still less does it consist in the consideration of the Heart of Mary merely as a part of her virginal body. The two elements are essential to the devotion, just as soul and body are necessary to the constitution of man.
From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07168a.htm )


It is an imaginative contemplation of Her physical heart associated with the contemplation of the spiritual's suffering.

The diabolical deviations there are:

Let's compare it with the veneration of actual relics. The relic that is physically present acts in the mystery of real presence as reminder and conductor of attention *from* it *to* God. The mistake veneration taught by the Vatican put the physical heart as the very target of the veneration. Subtle, but terrible difference;

the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality and alien to Church tradition;

the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).

This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.

Note that when I say choosing the part instead of the whole, I am just saying in English what in Greek would be abandoning that which is "kat'holic" for what is "katta meric". There is nothing "according to the whole" (catholic) in what is clearly "according to the part" (catameric).

Ah, the non-Catholic gift of creating silly problems where none exist, stretching to find reasons to attack the Catholic Church. It's posts like this that reinforce my convictions that the Catholic Church is Christ's Church.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2010, 11:01:22 AM »


Let's compare it with the veneration of actual relics. The relic that is physically present acts in the mystery of real presence as reminder and conductor of attention *from* it *to* God. The mistake veneration taught by the Vatican put the physical heart as the very target of the veneration. Subtle, but terrible difference;
I think the problem in your argument is the comparison you are trying to make. We are not venerating her heart. It is a contemplation. What was said in the article says much the same as I tried to explain.

Quote
the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality
I have no idea what "Vatican spirituality is". How can there be a diabolical deviation when there is no such thing. In order to really discuss this would require whether or not western spirituality is valid or not. Perhaps it is not common to eastern spirituality, but that doesn't automatically mean it is diabolical.

Quote
the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).
I disagree. I don't see this at all, and the article you sighted even seems to affirm this. It goes from the part (heart) to the whole, her life in union with her Son.


Quote
This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.
I disagree. It is simply a difference between Eastern and Western Spirituality. Western spirituality is not diabolical simply because it does not conform to the East's tradition.


 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:02:42 AM by danman916 » Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2010, 11:01:49 AM »

Papist,

I couldn't agree more, with you.
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2010, 11:05:17 AM »

   
 Read some history, my friend.
these kinds of statements really advance the conversation.

Ok, i'll start using that statement when I hear Orthodox stating the whopper's of their false perceptions about Catholicism. We'll just see how far the conversation goes, then.   Roll Eyes

I'm really not interested when the polemical statements get brought out.

 
Logged
danman916
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 80


« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2010, 11:12:51 AM »

When I see something from another Christian faith that seems contradictory to me, my approach is to address the subject by explaining how I understand it to be, then ask those who adhere to that particular faith tradition to explain it, if I am not understanding correctly.

I suppose that no one has to approach debate topics from that perspective, but the subtle understanding is that one is approaching the subject respectfully with the intention for dialogue and greater understanding.

Instead, the charge is made here that the apparition is diabolical, and the approach is a guilty until proven innocent approach. That is confrontational and is usually masked as “speaking the truth in love”. Who would approach their brother this way? Most of the time, one would assume good faith on the part of the other, and the discussion of brothers would hopefully lead to enlightenment on both sides where the Spirit can work to bring the truth.

But I guess that’s the nature of internet forums. But it's not a very pastoral approach.

Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,643


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2010, 11:15:07 AM »

Quote
Prayer, fasting, conversion, penance

Conversion of the Russian people? Conversion of the nation which became Orthodox a good 1000 years before Fatima? Conversion of the mami and babushki, common folks and gentry, and of the untold thousands martyrs and confessors of the Soviet period, men and women, layman, cleric and monastic, who steadfastly maintained their Orthodox faith against the worst brutality and oppression the soviet system could throw at them? Conversion of the folks who hid the Bibles and books, who stashed away the icons, who made sure the babies were baptised, folks in the gulags who held clandestine liturgies? These people needed conversion?

I have members of my extended family still alive who lived through it all. The woman in the apparition sure got it wrong.
Conversion of a country that became institutionally atheist.

Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

Quote
Read some history, my friend.


Quote
these kinds of statements really advance the conversation.

Of course they do. Or have you missed the historical examples I have given?
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,643


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2010, 11:28:52 AM »

Quote
Instead, the charge is made here that the apparition is diabolical

Others here may have asserted the apparition is diabolical, but not me. Just sayin'.  police
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,426


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2010, 11:55:48 AM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Fabio Leite
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 3,518


Future belongs to God only.


WWW
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2010, 12:45:21 PM »


Now, in regards to the consecration of Russia, this was about Communism and the errors of Communism, not the individuals.

I'm still not seeing the problem in the message.

That's how I have always understood the message.

That's not how the Roman church understand it though, and in that you are deviating from what it is the proper teaching of Rome. Irish hermit has in a few posts before the statements of the chief archivist on the case plus two statements from the Pope. Your belief that it was restricted to leaving Communism for Christianism is, from a Roman point of view, wrong.
Logged

Multiple Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Fabio Leite
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 3,518


Future belongs to God only.


WWW
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2010, 12:58:56 PM »

Quote
We are not venerating her heart. It is a contemplation. What was said in the article says much the same as I tried to explain.

If that is the case, then we are restricted to points 2 and 3.

Quote
Quote
the second diabolical deviation is the active exercise of imagination that is typical of Vatican spirituality
I have no idea what "Vatican spirituality is". How can there be a diabolical deviation when there is no such thing. In order to really discuss this would require whether or not western spirituality is valid or not. Perhaps it is not common to eastern spirituality, but that doesn't automatically mean it is diabolical.

It is the series of spiritual practices that are focused on the operations of the mind, just like contemplations. Jesuistic spiritual exercises are a case in point. This focus on the mind starts with the ascension of the role of philosophy and soon degenerates into a series of exercises of imagination, visualizing images in the mind systematically.

Quote
Quote
the third diabolical deviation is the inherently anti-catholic aspect of it, since it, unlike the relics which go from the part to the whole, this "message" calls us to abandon catholicism (katta holos, what is according to the whole), to adopt catamerism (katta meros, which is according to the part).
I disagree. I don't see this at all, and the article you sighted even seems to affirm this. It goes from the part (heart) to the whole, her life in union with her Son.

Again, even from a Roman point of view: you have Romans who worship Jesus Christ and venerate the Holy Virgin in a natural, spontaneous way, that is, as whole persons. Then, an apparition comes and tells them to focus on the heart. That is from the whole to the part.

Quote
Quote
This choosing of the part over the whole is the systematic theological mistake of the West: choosing Augustin as key to the other Fathers, the Pope over the other Bishops, the Scriptures over the other Traditions, and now, the hearts of Mary and Jesus over the whole of their persons.
I disagree. It is simply a difference between Eastern and Western Spirituality. Western spirituality is not diabolical simply because it does not conform to the East's tradition.

It's a difference between Western and Christian spirituality. Just like Romans would - and did - say that Hesycasm is non-Christian. And truly, they can't be both right at the same time. And *that* is why the saints and fathers were so strong about even subtle aspects of spiritual life. The stymuli to the mind that western spirituality provokes seriously jeopardizes spiritual progress and because it is using the wrong tool, it can't deliver the desired healing. We only have to discriminate here what is a criticism of the tools (Western spirituality is an unproper tool) and the mercy of God which can act extrinsically on people and wait until Judgement Day to bring them into the Church.
 
Logged

Multiple Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2010, 12:59:31 PM »

The Fatima appearance occurred after the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II in March 1917, but before the Bolshevik Revolution of November 1917.

Given the history of the Roman Catholic Church and Muscovy/Russian Empire, which had been one of antagonism for centuries, it is quite likely that the Fatima vision for the conversion of Russia can well be interpreted as a conversion to Roman Catholicism, especially since the Provisional Government had not formally adopted a policy of militant atheism as the later, Bolshevik government did. We tend to interpret things anachronistically if we look at the Russia Fatima was speaking of as atheist. Russia had the same sort of republican government as Portugal at the time.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,643


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2010, 01:06:23 PM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?

My dear papist, is the point so hard to see?

That while the government and authorities of Russia were atheist, the minds and hearts of the great majority of the people were firmly rooted in Orthodoxy. To publicly acknowledge God's presence and His protection of the Russian troops and people would have mightily stuck in Stalin's atheist craw, but there's no escaping the fact that he did indeed invoke God to rally the troops and people.

I have provided personal and historical examples and illustrations exposing the fallacy of the need to "consecrate" and "convert" Russia. If this is not good enough for you, then what would you make of the fact that, for more than a thousand years, more icons have been painted, and more churches have been dedicated to the Mother of God and her feasts, including of her icons (Vladimirskaya, Smolenskaya, Tikhvinskaya, etc), than for any other saint? Russia had dedicated itself to the Mother of God, and has consistently venerated her, many centuries before bolshevism. The supposed need for a Papal "consecration" is at best misguided, at worst, an insult to the historic faith of the Russian people, past and present, particularly to her saints of the Soviet period - more martyrs than the first three centuries of Christianity, no less.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 01:17:21 PM by LBK » Logged
Fabio Leite
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 3,518


Future belongs to God only.


WWW
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2010, 01:29:53 PM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?

My dear papist, is the point so hard to see?

That while the government and authorities of Russia were atheist, the minds and hearts of the great majority of the people were firmly rooted in Orthodoxy. To publicly acknowledge God's presence and His protection of the Russian troops and people would have mightily stuck in Stalin's atheist craw, but there's no escaping the fact that he did indeed invoke God to rally the troops and people.

I have provided personal and historical examples and illustrations exposing the fallacy of the need to "consecrate" and "convert" Russia. If this is not good enough for you, then what would you make of the fact that, for more than a thousand years, more icons have been painted, and more churches have been dedicated to the Mother of God and her feasts, including of her icons (Vladimirskaya, Smolenskaya, Tikhvinskaya, etc), than for any other saint? Russia had dedicated itself to the Mother of God, and has consistently venerated her, many centuries before bolshevism. The supposed need for a Papal "consecration" is at best misguided, at worst, an insult to the historic faith of the Russian people, past and present, particularly to her saints of the Soviet period - more martyrs than the first three centuries of Christianity, no less.



Plus, there is an icon of the Theotokos enthroned as Queen of Heaven that was miraculously found around the same time of the abdication of St. Nicholas II, thus symbolizing She was reigning directly over Russia. While apparitions were going to make their show with none of the discretion or humility of the Theotokos, She was sending Her real message about the rise of comunism in Russia with the same humility, discretion and sweetness we see in the Gospels, calling upon Herself Her responsibility, but not calling attention to Herself more than to Her Son, or strange innovative doctrines and practices. While lies were to be spread about He relation to Russia, she beforehand silenced them with the seal of Her mercy. No consacration was necessary, She would not have to ask to have what She already did. She was already in charge Herself.

Icon of the Mother of God "Enthroned"

The “Enthroned” (or “Reigning”) Icon of the Mother of God appeared on March 2, 1917, the day of Tsar Nicholas II’s abdication, in the village of Kolomskoye near Moscow, Russia.

In February 1917, an elderly woman named Eudokia saw the Mother of God in a dream telling her to go to Kolomskoye to find a large blackened icon in a church. After this vision occurred to her three times, Eudokia went to Kolomskoye to search for the icon with the priest Nicholas.

In the basement of a church, they found the icon and started wiping off the accumulated dust. They were then able to see the Most Holy Theotokos wearing a crown and sitting on a throne. Immediately, Father Nicholas celebrated a service of Thanksgiving and an Akathist.

News of the icon’s discovery spread throughout Russia, and there were several miracles of healing from physical and mental infirmities. As time went by, the icon renewed itself and became brighter and brighter.

Since the icon was revealed just as the Tsar abdicated, many people believed that the Queen of Heaven had assumed royal authority over the Russian land, and so the icon became known as the “Enthroned” (or “Reigning”) icon. Upon additional research, it was learned that the icon had come from the Ascension Convent in Moscow. In 1812, before Napoleon’s invasion, this icon and others were sent to the Church of the Ascension in the village of Kolomskoye for safekeeping. Apparently forgotten, the icons were never returned to Moscow.

A Service and Akathist to the “Enthroned” Icon were composed with the assistance of His Holiness Patriarch Tikhon (+1925). Many copies of the icon were venerated throughout Russia, but these were confiscated by the Soviets. The Service and Akathist to the icon were also forbidden to be served.

The original icon is said to be in the Novodevichy Museum in Moscow, and there is a copy in the Church of the Kazan Mother of God in Kolomskoye.

The “Enthroned” or “Reigning” Icon, which belongs to the Panachranta type, shows the Theotokos seated on a throne with Her Son.

By permission of the Orthodox Church in America (www.oca.org)
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17614
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 01:43:51 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Multiple Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,426


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2010, 04:03:57 PM »



Institutionally atheist ... yet the bulk of the people maintained their Orthodox faith. It seems you have not read my earlier posts. Don't forget that even Josef Stalin was forced to acknowledge in 1942 that the only reliable unifying factor for the Russian people at its greatest crisis during the War was the Church. There is footage of him addressing the troops from Lenin's mausoleum, ending with the words "S'nami Bog" ("God is with us"). Political opportunism, true. But a grudging acknowledgement that even the might of the Soviet system could never destroy the Orthodoxy in people's hearts.

What's your point?

My dear papist, is the point so hard to see?

That while the government and authorities of Russia were atheist, the minds and hearts of the great majority of the people were firmly rooted in Orthodoxy. To publicly acknowledge God's presence and His protection of the Russian troops and people would have mightily stuck in Stalin's atheist craw, but there's no escaping the fact that he did indeed invoke God to rally the troops and people.

I have provided personal and historical examples and illustrations exposing the fallacy of the need to "consecrate" and "convert" Russia. If this is not good enough for you, then what would you make of the fact that, for more than a thousand years, more icons have been painted, and more churches have been dedicated to the Mother of God and her feasts, including of her icons (Vladimirskaya, Smolenskaya, Tikhvinskaya, etc), than for any other saint? Russia had dedicated itself to the Mother of God, and has consistently venerated her, many centuries before bolshevism. The supposed need for a Papal "consecration" is at best misguided, at worst, an insult to the historic faith of the Russian people, past and present, particularly to her saints of the Soviet period - more martyrs than the first three centuries of Christianity, no less.


And what iswrong with wanting Institutional Russia to be converted so that the persecution of Christians would end?
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Tags: apparitions Fatima 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.086 seconds with 42 queries.