Author Topic: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)  (Read 4235 times)

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Offline xariskai

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New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« on: April 01, 2010, 07:48:06 PM »





Deesis/Hagia Sophia

A youtube on the History Channel's new computer image from the Shroud of Turin can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X-v53WYwYI
I have always thought the Shroud images were a dead ringer of the Pantokrator, gold coins from Justinian's reign, etc. (see below), but wow, this new image really looks like Christ Pantokrator to me. What do you guys think?

ICONOGRAPHIC IMAGES OF JESUS
Pantocrator or Pantokrator (Παντοκράτωρ) is the title used by the LXX to translate the Hebrew title El Shaddai ( אל שדי‎); Christians ascribed the title to Jesus.

The most common translation of Pantocrator is "Almighty" or "All-powerful” Pan, "all" + κρατος, “strength”; omnipotent; it may also be understood as denoting Ruler/Sustainer (κρατεω "to sustain”).

In the NT παντοκράτορος is used once by Paul (2 Cor 6:18, of the Father) and 9X in the book of Revelation, also of the Father (παντοκράτορος or παντοκράτωρ). Rev 21:22 says of the New Jerusalem, “I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple.” The Father and the Son are its temple –Gk. singular!

What did Christ look like? During the sixth century a variety of images of Jesus were said to be derived from an image "not made with hands"/αχειροποίητα; cf. Mk 14.58; 2 Cor 5:1). Comparing the images below, notice how the photo of the Shroud of Turin, the image of Christ from a gold coin during the reign of Justinian II (dating between AD 692 and 695), the Pantokrator icons from Hagia Sophia in Constantinople (built under the personal supervision of Emperor Justinian I), and the monastery at traditional Mt. Sinai etc. all look similar.

The Eastern Orthodox Church still observes a feast commemorating the transfer from Edessa to Constantinople of a relic known as the Holy Mandylion "not made by hands" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_of_Edessa

Ian Wilson suggested the theory that the object venerated as the Mandylion from at least the sixth century was in fact the Shroud of Turin, folded so that only the face was visible and enclosed in a frame (Wilson, Ian, The Turin Shroud: The Burial Cloth of Jesus Christ?). A tenth century codex, Codex Vossianus Latinus Q 69 refers to an eighth-century description of an imprint of Christ's entire body left on a canvas kept in a church in Edessa: "King Abgar received a cloth on which one can see not only a face but the whole body" (in Latin: [non tantum] faciei figuram sed totius corporis figuram cernere poteris). Subsequent studies attempting to date the Shroud still remain highly controversial and subject to divergent interpretations.



 












« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:58:58 PM by xariskai »

Offline Punch

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 09:18:53 PM »
I saw the program and was moved. Most impressive.  I have always believed that the shroud was the burial shroud of Christ.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Papist

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2010, 02:01:41 PM »
Beautiful!!!
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Christianus

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 01:47:33 AM »
I've always thought the same thing
look at this comparison photo side by side. Hey xariskai You've beaten me to being the first one to make a topic on this on this forum.


http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/pantocrator.htm

Personally I think what happened was: the shroud of Edessa was stolen by the crusaders so that's why the Roman catholics have the shroud.
http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/history.htm

But that's just my opinion. someone please tell me what really happened.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 01:50:17 AM by Christianus »

Offline Gamliel

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 02:28:26 AM »
I always thought the shroud was an invention of the Middle Ages.  Fortunately, our faith is not based on a piece of cloth.

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 02:40:47 AM »
I always thought the shroud was an invention of the Middle Ages.  Fortunately, our faith is not based on a piece of cloth.
Good point.  It's nice to think that the Shroud of Turin can bolster our faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but if we don't believe the witness of the Church, I don't think the Shroud is going to help.
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Offline xariskai

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 03:56:06 AM »
I always thought the shroud was an invention of the Middle Ages.  Fortunately, our faith is not based on a piece of cloth.
Good point.  It's nice to think that the Shroud of Turin can bolster our faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but if we don't believe the witness of the Church, I don't think the Shroud is going to help.
C14 is reliable enough over the range where it is calibrated by dendrochronology etc., however as it turned out the dating was again called into question after one of the original scientists who did the dating demonstrated in a peer reviewed publication that the Shroud portion which was used as a sample had been rewoven in the Middle Ages  http://www.shroud.com/late05.htm#rogersc14;
 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tca.2004.09.029

The possible relationship to iconography and the Mandylion is intriguing once again considering the early literary descriptions and the re-opening of the issue of dating. As a "verificationalist apologetic" it will likely always remain inconclusive. I don't claim to know it to be the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, but the final chapter in the scientific analysis of the Shroud has yet to be written. http://www.shroud.com/

Hey xariskai You've beaten me to being the first one to make a topic on this on this forum.
Hey Christianus, you snooze you loose ;-)  Actually I posted just before the shut-down for Pascha rather than after; sometimes the last will be first ;-)

Quote from: Christianus
Personally I think what happened was: the shroud of Edessa was stolen by the crusaders so that's why the Roman catholics have the shroud.
http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/history.htm

But that's just my opinion. someone please tell me what really happened.
I haven't done primary research on this so I can't fully vouch for it, but there is an interesting attempt at possible history/historiography of the Shroud here  www.shroud.com/pdfs/sorensen2.pdf

As to Peter's and Gamliel's remarks to the effect that our faith does not rest on a piece of cloth I fully agree. Whatever scientific assessment of the Shroud ultimately concludes at a bare minimum we can still confidently affirm this.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 04:24:54 AM by xariskai »

Offline Christianus

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 04:41:43 AM »
I always thought the shroud was an invention of the Middle Ages.  Fortunately, our faith is not based on a piece of cloth.
Good point.  It's nice to think that the Shroud of Turin can bolster our faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but if we don't believe the witness of the Church, I don't think the Shroud is going to help.
Then why do you have all these relics of the saints?
Like bones and stuff?

Offline xariskai

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 04:51:17 AM »
Similarity to the Pantokrator icons aside, I can't help but wonder if southern Italian rather than middle eastern skin tone was interpolated by the person (southern Italian?) doing the computer reconstruction rather than being a quality suggested by the image itself.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 04:51:54 AM by xariskai »

Offline basilthefool

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 07:47:09 AM »
Very interesting (and pointed) consideration. Does anyone here have the computer savvy to enhance the two images from the program and restore a more Middle Eastern complexion?

Offline Layman Dan

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 03:55:40 PM »
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 03:57:53 PM by Layman Dan »

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 05:47:42 PM »
I always thought the shroud was an invention of the Middle Ages.  Fortunately, our faith is not based on a piece of cloth.
Good point.  It's nice to think that the Shroud of Turin can bolster our faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but if we don't believe the witness of the Church, I don't think the Shroud is going to help.
Then why do you have all these relics of the saints?
Like bones and stuff?
We don't believe in the resurrection of the dead because of what we believe about relics of the saints.  We believe what we believe about relics of the saints because of our belief in the resurrection of the dead.  If Jesus had remained dead, we would have no saints, hence no wonder-working relics.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline bogdan

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 08:23:03 PM »
This is what convinces me: 1) it's a photographic negative image, and 2) it is functionally a topographic image, which one of the posted images above demonstrates. Neither of these are found, in the form of art or otherwise, until the modern day, because both depend on modern technology. It's highly unlikely some enterprising artist could have possibly made this, whether in the Middle Ages or the First Century.

Not that my faith depends on it, but I do believe it's the real deal. Very cool images, I will have to watch for this show to air again.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 08:25:48 PM by bogdan »

Offline Christianus

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2010, 08:54:17 PM »
They carbon dated the medieval resowing (repairs) on the shroud of turin.
The original shroud of Turin wasn't carbon dated.

Offline Vzldrb

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 09:05:42 AM »
They carbon dated the medieval resowing (repairs) on the shroud of turin.
The original shroud of Turin wasn't carbon dated.
Which is something I'm sure they knew in the first place, which is good evidence FOR the Turin that it wasn't 1700 something, etc.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2011, 02:17:52 AM »
I always thought the shroud was an invention of the Middle Ages.  Fortunately, our faith is not based on a piece of cloth.
Good point.  It's nice to think that the Shroud of Turin can bolster our faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but if we don't believe the witness of the Church, I don't think the Shroud is going to help.
Then why do you have all these relics of the saints?
Like bones and stuff?

Are relics used to bolster a wavering faith, or for some other purpose... oh, well then...

Offline Tallitot

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2011, 02:37:17 AM »
I'd somewhat wary of anything shown on the Hysteria Channel.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline xariskai

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 04:47:25 PM »
Perhaps this deserves a bump considering the recent scientific analysis suggesting a first century date.

Offline Luckster

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 09:26:14 PM »
Interesting. I can't believe I missed this. Thanks for sharing.

Offline JamesR

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 11:33:48 PM »
Interesting. I saw this a couple years back. It's not too new. But anyhow, I was surprised by how remarkably similar the face looks to some of our Icons of Christ. For something that's like almost 2,000 years old, that looks pretty similar.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline xariskai

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Re: New 3-D Image: The face of Jesus? (from the History Channel)
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 05:02:12 AM »
Here's a discussion of the most recent dating (by three methods) of the shroud pointing to the first century:
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sindone-23579/

As I noticed the above link to the History Channel video above is now broken here is another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNJPJ4JwHeE&feature=youtu.be