Author Topic: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome  (Read 2478 times)

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Offline NDHoosier

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Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« on: November 20, 2002, 09:31:06 AM »
Alex posted this on byzcath.org; I have his permission to quote.

TOP 10 REASONS TO BE IN COMMUNION WITH ROME

1) Someone else will do all the thinking for your bishops so they can avoid all those face wrinkles and grey hair that results from too much pondering and the worrying that results from it;

2) Our people can be constantly reminded how lucky they are to have the "fullness" of enlightened faith which they would not have otherwise had without Rome;

3) Costs can be saved on administrative matters like the appointment of your own bishops;

4) You will receive the promise of maintaining a married priesthood - again and again and again and. . .;

5) The maintenance of your Particular Eastern theology is assured - as long as it is in total sync with the only true Latin theology;

6) You will receive the blessing of all sorts of monastic Orders - Basilians, Redemptorists, Oblates of Mary Immaculate, Sister Servants of the Ray emanating from the Immaculate Heart of Mary and other long-standing Orders of the true Eastern tradition;

7) You can be a "sui juris" Church which means that all decision-making is in your own hands - dependent on the approval of the Curia, Vatican subcommittees, Prelates of the Congregation of the Eastern Churches. If your decision makes it through all these levels, there are still some Cardinals who may want to review it before letting you have your own way . . . one can't be too careful about schismatic tendencies among Easterners you know, invincible ignorance and all that;

8) While under Rome, your Eastern Church can have the benefit of having its saints canonized by the Pope himself - when he's done canonizing the Italian, French and Spanish saints - oops, almost forgot the Polish! Why settle for those insignificant Orthodox local canonizations . . .er, "glorifications" - is that what you Easterners call your canonizations?

9) Your Patriarchs and Metropolitans can receive the great honour of not only being appointed by Rome, but being consecrated by Rome, pallia et alia, in the company of many Latin bishops! Who wouldn't jump at the chance for such glory?! Some might even get to be . . . CARDINALS!!

10) AND, one more great benefit is that, while under Rome, we will let you pretend that you are equals and "in Communion." There is nothing that Rome would not do to make you Easterners happy to participate in the true light of the REAL Church!
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Offline Dan Lauffer

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Re:Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2002, 10:11:41 AM »
ND,

I tried to find even one area in which your (Alex's) logic was flawed but cannot.  I pray that these things will change and suspect that many will.  I also have no assurance that our efforts will meet with success in my lifetime, nor am I confident that the BCC will survive as a separate entity. In fact our prayer is that we will not.  

Nevertheless, I can't think of a greater cause to which I can give my life.  Are we really "under" Rome when our true life, hidden in God, but someday to be revealed, is to bring back the pre 1054 Church?  Are our methods perfect?  I doubt it, but who else is even seriously trying?  The more serious of us draw hope from our Lord's example to wit:

"...let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.  For the sake of the joy that lay before Him He endured the cross, despising its shame, and has taken His seat atthe right of the throne of God.  Consider how He endured such opposition from sinners, in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart.  In your struggles against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood.  You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: 'My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by Him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son He acknowledges.' Endure your trials as 'discipline'; God treats you as sons."  

That's good enough for me.

Or as my grandparents used to say: "Only one life 'twill soon be past.  Only what's done for Christ will last."

Dan Lauffer

Offline Orthodoc

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Re:Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2002, 10:41:06 AM »
[Are we really "under" Rome when our true life, hidden in God, but someday to be revealed, is to bring back the pre 1054 Church? ]

?????????  Dan:  We Orthodox Catholics couldn't agree more.  We have told Rome the same thing ever since the schism.  That is why our question is always the same when the subject negiotation COMES UP.   Negiotate WHAT?   Just RETURN to what the church was and still is.  That which is found within the real Orthodox Catholic Church  of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

Because Dan, you see,  we still are that pre 1054 Church.  We have neither added, subtracted, nor changed any of those doctrines that were formulated before 1054.  And, we still see the authority of Rome in the same context it was before 1054 rather than after.

And, yes Dan you really are "under" Rome.  Unless you can point to us what new RC Canon or declaration has been issued that supercedes all the 'Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches' which gives the Pope authority OVER your church.  Or one  that states that to be 'In Communion" is not the same as being 'UNDER THE AUTHORITY' of Rome.

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« Last Edit: November 20, 2002, 10:47:47 AM by Orthodoc »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2002, 11:38:17 AM »
I hope it hasn't come to this — cribbing threads from that other forum.

This bitter list is pretty much true. The writer knows how the disgruntled feel and here mirrors it. As big as the Catholic vision seems to be, transcending rite, pointing to little copycat hybrid churches as the way the Orthodox should be (for all the problems the Orthodox have) is a joke.

Dan is an idealist. But 'bringing back the pre-1054 church' isn't an option. Honest people on both sides will say the present Orthodox communion, as is, is the heir of that Byzantine tradition. Reducing that tradition to 'pre-1054' seems arbitrary and artificial.

The Eastern Catholics ARE under Rome, in a way nobody in the Christian East was before the medieval estrangement (which one can't pin on 1054), which happened for political reasons (two empires, which no longer exist, representing two cultures).
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2002, 11:20:17 AM »

There is another one which is going around.  Since the one you posted was written as a spoof by a Ukrainian Catholic, I offer this as a spoof also -

Only........for fun!



  From the home office in Lviv, Ukraine, Davyd Lystonosyts presents:
  Top Ten Reasons to be a <snipe> Eastern Catholic
  (Read by the Synod of Bishops of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church --
  direct satelite link to Kyiv, Ukraine)

  10. You can have two Christmases and two Easters in the same parish.

  9. Roman Catholics think you are Orthodox and Orthodox think you are a
  heretic.

  8. Your bishops get to test out space age technology for NASA, i.e. the
  collapsable mitre.

  7. You never fit in...anywhere.

  6. When it comes to services, you can cut out whatever you want, as long as
  it ends with an Amen.

  5. When you join a monastery or convent, your standard of living goes up,
  not down.

  4. Your pastor gets strange looks when going out to celebrate his wedding
  anniversary, and then gets looks of disgust when he explains "Yes, I'm
  Catholic."

  3. Your kids get to go to Catholic school for free (at least in Canada).

  2. You can go to World Youth Day and get that really cool back-pack.

  1. You get the beauty of Orthodoxy (if you are lucky), but with only half
  the fasting!
   

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Offline Josaphat

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Re:Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2002, 09:30:25 PM »
Hey!  What's going on!  This has been edited.

I will speak for the writer of this one and say: Please ask for permission when editing material (as well as spreading it over the internet).

Josaphat of Polotsk (rolling over in his grave, laughing)

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 10:21:41 PM »
Wonder why this thread is so short. Wonder if we can add to it since been a few years

Offline Maria

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2014, 01:36:22 AM »
Wonder why this thread is so short. Wonder if we can add to it since been a few years


Nothing has changed in 12 years. Next two years should be interesting with the 2016 Synod. People tend to forget their history.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2014, 09:09:40 PM »
Going back into communion with Rome would be bringing the blood of many martyrs into your communion. 

Rome slaughtered Christians by the boat load, through murder, and against the canon of the Holy apostles.  It's tough enough with the Old believer martyrs with the EO.  But Rome has oceans of blood on their hands in comparison.

I think that reason alone (amongst many others) is a reason to stay away from Rome's communion.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2015, 07:57:37 PM »
My list, now that the circumstances that kept me away from the Catholic Church have gone away.

1. We include the East. You can worship in the Byzantine Rite if you want to, either latinized or unlatinized; both are fine with me. The Eastern Catholic churches aren't perfect, and as a Catholic I don't have to pretend they are, but what is?

2. We include your post-schism saints. You don't include us.

3. The Pope has kept the true faith about contraception.

4. Remarriage after divorce doesn't make sense. The Pope has kept the faith on that one too.

5. The Pope has done nothing but defend the basics we all share: beliefs in God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images. I have no reason not to be in communion with him. And we don't worship him. To me he's mostly a name the priest whispers at the consecration at Mass, to whom I send my Peter's Pence offering once a year (which he gives to charity).

6. I can find a Catholic church virtually anywhere in the United States and worship with a clear conscience. And do.

7. The church includes but transcends ethnicity/tribe/nation. I love the Irish, Italians, Mexicans, Filipinos, Poles, Ukrainians, et al., but I'm not worshipping (in) somebody else's ethnic ghetto.

8. My Tridentine Sung Mass lasts about an hour and I have my whole Sunday free as well as Saturday nights. I'm not a monk and don't play one on TV.

9. Not being cut off from my own culture. My conservative parish has the best of my Anglican culture. Beats being told my native tradition is second-rate or worse.

10. St. Patrick's Day and Columbus Day are my holidays too even though I'm not Irish or Italian.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 08:20:12 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2015, 06:00:49 AM »
Note that many Eastern Christians actually like,long services.  My chief complaint about diocesan Tridemtine masses is they're not preceded by Matins, Lauds and Prime according to the Piis,X Breviary to,form a richer and more complete service.   In fact the very limited degree the Divine Office is celebrated conventually in the RCC even in parishes with multiple priests, despite the exhortations in the preface to the Pailine Liturgy of the Hours to celebrate it more in that manner, is a disgrace.

However, one thing should be stressed: the present efforts led by the likes of !etropolitan Kallistos Ware and Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev towards exploring the restoration of communion do not envisage the canonical Orthodox churches becoming Sui Juris churches with the Pope having ordinary jurisdiction.  In fact the Ravenna Declaration of 2006 explicitly rejected this.  And now, spooked I think by Pope Francis and the Ukraine tragedy, the Moscow Patriarchate has rejected the Ravenna Declaration, after sitting on it for eight years, as not going far enough to protect the autocephaly of the individual Prthodox churches and retroactively appearing to confer powers on Constantinople that Moscow denies Constantinople has (certainly, the idea recently expressed by the Metropolitan of Bursa that Constantinople can unilaterally rescind the autocephaly of a church, or grant it for that matter, was not well received by anyone, especially the Czech and Slovak Church that it seemed directed at). 

So if communion happens, it will be just like the communion that now exists between, say, the Moscow Patriarchate and the Church of Bulgaria.  Two equals.  The Pope may get Constantinoples Article 28 privileges under Chalcedon but he might not; these might well wind up being deprecated or restricted through the cooperation of the other Orthodox churches due to fear of Phanariopapalism.  Thus ultimately the decision on whether communion will be restored rests with the Pope.  He has to submit to us, not vice versa.   We offered him a really sweet deal in 2006 and that deal was not taken, which is perhaps for the better as Id be leery of communion with Rome as long as Pope Francis is in office.  But we should pray that by 2054, a conservative Pope who loves the Orthodox is elected.  Actually I think the best thing that could happen would be if a traditionalist Orthodox leaning Eastern Catholic were elected Pope; unlikely, but ideal.  He would understand our theological language without the barrier imposed by scholastic theology, with the Eastern Catholic Churches have been encouraged to move away from as part of the de-Latinization that was one of the sweeter fruits of Vatican II.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2015, 06:33:55 AM »
Absolutely bring back public recitation of the office in the Roman Rite without making it mandatory for the laity. The southwestern New Jersey church I go to when in the area has had recitation of one or more of the little hours (terce, like in Russian Orthodoxy) before Mass.

Quote
However, one thing should be stressed...

Then union won't happen. I'm not surprised.

Quote
the de-Latinization that was one of the sweeter fruits of Vatican II.

Everything in church polity except things that are doctrine — the papacy and the episcopate — is negotiable. So autonomy for the Eastern Catholic churches is fine. As for rites, as I like to say, mother church offers both unlatinized and latinized forms, and that's great. She originally meant for the Eastern rites to remain unlatinized but nine times out of ten, Eastern Catholics latinized themselves; I hope churchmen respect that.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2015, 05:27:23 PM »
This thread was better off dead. :P
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 05:27:44 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Top 10 Reasons to be in communion with Rome
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 10:43:20 PM »
This thread was better off dead. :P

Amen x 3.  :-[