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« on: March 13, 2010, 09:01:26 AM »

Does anyone know what any moderate, informed Orthodox has had to say about the validity of this alledged appearance of the Virgin Mary as the Roman Catholic Church teaches?
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 10:20:52 AM »

Does anyone know what any moderate, informed Orthodox has had to say about the validity of this alledged appearance of the Virgin Mary as the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

This isn't moderate and informed enough?
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx
The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion? By Miriam Lambouras

One of the problems is that in a large part, the treatment of Fatima by the Vatican's following is anything but moderate.  When informed that as "private revelation" no one need believe in Fatima, their reaction is anything but moderate.
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2010, 10:57:23 AM »

The part about the "Consecration of Russia" is enough to prove that this is not authentic.
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 11:30:49 AM »

The part about the "Consecration of Russia" is enough to prove that this is not authentic.

Reply:

[The "Immaculata" is one of the titles of Mary from the visions of Our Lady of Fatima, who promised that, If Russia were consecrated to her, Russia would be freed from the Communists and from the yoke of Communism. And, wasn't Kremlin not being used as a church, but as the symbol of the Communist Party?]

This statement in itself shows the absurdity of such a proclaimation by the the Theotokos.

Both Scripture and tradition tell us that Mary was chosen for two tasks -

1)  To be the instrument whereby God became man (the Incarnation)
2)  To spend the rest of her life pointing others towards her son.

And you want us to believe that she appeared to some children in Fatima requesting that Russia be CONSECRATED TO HER instead of her son!  Thereby putting herself above her son in importance?  And pointing to herself instead of her son?

Facts regarding Mary And Her Centuries Ties To Russia -

Russia has been traditionally known as "the House of Holy Mary", and
God's Mother has been regarded as the holy protectress of Russia for
centuries. There were more churches devoted to Her Nativity,
Presentation, Annunciation, Assumption, and Intercession than to
important events from the life of Christ. Many more churches were
built to honour the holy images of God's Mother, such as "Our Lady of
Vladimir", "Our Lady of Smolensk", and "Our Lady of Kazan".

The cult of God's Mother was introduced to Russia by Andrei
Bogolyubski who brought to his new capital the Byzantine icon "Our
Lady of Vladimir". During the most important events of Russian
history, such as the Polish invasion of 1612 or the French invasion of
1812, numerous prayers for victory were offered to this and other
important images of God's Mother. Even the Russian tricolour flag,
first introduced in 1667, was modeled after the traditional colours of
her clothes.

At the beginning of the 20th centuries, strange things started to
happen with holy icons. "Our Mother of Kazan" was stolen from the
Kazan monastery and was apparently burnt by thieves to ashes; "Our
Mother of Smolensk" (or the Hodegetria) started to "cry" with resin
(the icon perished during the WWII). The Fyodorovskaya icon of God's
Mother at Kostroma's Ipatievsky Monastery was considered the holy
protectress of the Romanov family: the first Romanov tsar's mother
blessed him for the reign with this icon. This holy image (said to be
painted by Apostle Luke but dated by analysis only to the 9th century)
started to blacken from 1911 on, and by 1917 it became so black that
almost nothing could be seen on it. Other divine images were
scattered: "Our Lady of Vladimir" and the Blachernitissa (made in the
7th century from the ashes of Christian martyrs) are exhibited at the
Tretyakov Gallery, "Our Lady of Tikhvin" is now in Chicago, and only
the tragic masterpiece "Our Lady of Tolga" (1314) was yesterday
(22-Aug-2003) returned to the Tolga Convent at Yaroslavl.

Our Lady of Vladimir:
www.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/...e/1100/12c.html
Our Lady of Kostroma ("Fyodorovskaya", after the restoration):
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon...orovsk_kost.jpg
Our Lady of Blachernae:
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon...033_vlahern.jpg
Our Lady of Tolga:
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon.../022_tolgsk.jpg

++++++++++++

So it seems, if we were to believe that the supposed promises of the Theotokos were true, we'd have to assume that she was unaware of the fierce devotion the Russians have had for her for over a thousand years!  That her miraculous Icons (one copy was being used as a bargaining tool for the Popes entrance to Russia) are all fables!

Russia already has more churches dedicated to her than all of western Europe combined!

We Orthdox Catholics belive that Mary was chosen by God himself to be the tool which made the Incarnation possible.  After Christs birth she spend her entire life directing others towards her Son rather than herself.  And now she appears threatening the world if Russia isn't dedicated to her and her so called Immaculate Heart!  A little out of character for the greatest of all women, and what she was chosen by God to fulfill, don't you think?

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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2010, 12:05:34 PM »

what any moderate, informed Orthodox
"Moderate and informed Orthodox" do not comment on what happens in non-Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2010, 01:11:54 PM »

So it seems, if we were to believe that the supposed promises of the Theotokos were true, we'd have to assume that she was unaware of the fierce devotion the Russians have had for her for over a thousand years!  That her miraculous Icons (one copy was being used as a bargaining tool for the Popes entrance to Russia) are all fables!

Russia already has more churches dedicated to her than all of western Europe combined!

We Orthdox Catholics belive that Mary was chosen by God himself to be the tool which made the Incarnation possible.  After Christs birth she spend her entire life directing others towards her Son rather than herself.  And now she appears threatening the world if Russia isn't dedicated to her and her so called Immaculate Heart!  A little out of character for the greatest of all women, and what she was chosen by God to fulfill, don't you think?

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The bold part about sums up my feelings on Marian apparitions. When I was Catholic I could not accept them as the Mary of the apparitions did not sound like the same Theotokos that was honored in the Gospels and venerated by the early Christians.

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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2010, 01:27:03 PM »

Yes, thank you.  I also want to point out, the Bolsheviks had not taken Russia when her alledged appearance occurred, several months before, though the Tsar had resigned.  Yet it's the 60,000 witnesses that has me confused.
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 09:16:26 AM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 09:58:59 AM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?

How do you explain the fact that if the sun did what was claimed it was not witnessed by at least half the world that was in the day light hours?

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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 10:09:40 AM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?

How do you explain the fact that if the sun did what was claimed it was not witnessed by at least half the world that was in the day light hours?

Orthodoc
The fact that it was a vision that occured in Fatima and not all over the world. duh.
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 10:25:34 AM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?

How do you explain the fact that if the sun did what was claimed it was not witnessed by at least half the world that was in the day light hours?

Orthodoc
The fact that it was a vision that occured in Fatima and not all over the world. duh.

If the sun (a planet) was moving all over the sky as reported, it should have been seen by half the earth that was facing the sun and not covered by clouds.  DUH!  Or did the Sun just somehow come over Fatima and left the rest of the earth facing it at the time in a cloudy mass?  If the sun was actually moving through the sky it should have been visible to more than 60,000 people.  Unless, of course they were all hallucinating or brain dead!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 10:38:28 AM »

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/real_secrets_of_fatima

Quote
Precisely what happened at Fatima has been the subject of much controversy. Church authorities made inquiries, collected eyewitness testimony, and declared the events worthy of belief as a miracle (Zimdars-Swartz 1991, 90). However, people elsewhere in the world, viewing the very same sun, did not see the alleged gyrations; neither did astronomical observatories detect the sun deviating from the norm (which would have had a devastating effect on Earth!). Therefore, more tenable explanations for the reports include mass hysteria and local meteorological phenomena such as a sundog (a parhelion or “mock sun”).

On the other hand, several eyewitnesses of the October 13, 1917, gathering at Fatima specifically stated they were looking “fixedly at the sun” or “tried to look straight at it” or otherwise made clear they were gazing directly at the actual sun (qtd. in Rogo 1982, 230, 231). If this is so, the “dancing sun” and other solar phenomena may have been due to optical effects resulting from temporary retinal distortion caused by staring at such an intense light or to the effect of darting the eyes to and fro to avoid fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage, and movement).

Most likely, there was a combination of factors, including optical effects and meteorological phenomena, such as the sun being seen through thin clouds, causing it to appear as a silver disc. Other possibilities include an alteration in the density of the passing clouds, causing the sun’s image to alternately brighten and dim and so seem to advance and recede, and dust or moisture droplets in the atmosphere refracting the sunlight and thus imparting a variety of colors. The effects of suggestion were also likely involved, since devout spectators had come to the site fully expecting some miraculous event, had their gaze dramatically directed at the sun by the charismatic Lucia, and excitedly discussed and compared their perceptions in a way almost certain to foster psychological contagion (Nickell 1993, 176—181).
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 10:46:06 AM »

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/real_secrets_of_fatima

Quote
Precisely what happened at Fatima has been the subject of much controversy. Church authorities made inquiries, collected eyewitness testimony, and declared the events worthy of belief as a miracle (Zimdars-Swartz 1991, 90). However, people elsewhere in the world, viewing the very same sun, did not see the alleged gyrations; neither did astronomical observatories detect the sun deviating from the norm (which would have had a devastating effect on Earth!). Therefore, more tenable explanations for the reports include mass hysteria and local meteorological phenomena such as a sundog (a parhelion or “mock sun”).

On the other hand, several eyewitnesses of the October 13, 1917, gathering at Fatima specifically stated they were looking “fixedly at the sun” or “tried to look straight at it” or otherwise made clear they were gazing directly at the actual sun (qtd. in Rogo 1982, 230, 231). If this is so, the “dancing sun” and other solar phenomena may have been due to optical effects resulting from temporary retinal distortion caused by staring at such an intense light or to the effect of darting the eyes to and fro to avoid fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage, and movement).
Most likely, there was a combination of factors, including optical effects and meteorological phenomena, such as the sun being seen through thin clouds, causing it to appear as a silver disc. Other possibilities include an alteration in the density of the passing clouds, causing the sun’s image to alternately brighten and dim and so seem to advance and recede, and dust or moisture droplets in the atmosphere refracting the sunlight and thus imparting a variety of colors. The effects of suggestion were also likely involved, since devout spectators had come to the site fully expecting some miraculous event, had their gaze dramatically directed at the sun by the charismatic Lucia, and excitedly discussed and compared their perceptions in a way almost certain to foster psychological contagion (Nickell 1993, 176—181).

Thanks for this.  It brings out the points I was trying to make.  When did 'several eyewitneses' become 60,000 people?

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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 10:48:15 AM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?

How do you explain the fact that if the sun did what was claimed it was not witnessed by at least half the world that was in the day light hours?

Orthodoc
The fact that it was a vision that occured in Fatima and not all over the world. duh.

If the sun (a planet) was moving all over the sky as reported, it should have been seen by half the earth that was facing the sun and not covered by clouds.  DUH!  Or did the Sun just somehow come over Fatima and left the rest of the earth facing it at the time in a cloudy mass?  If the sun was actually moving through the sky it should have been visible to more than 60,000 people.  Unless, of course they were all hallucinating or brain dead!

Orthodoc
So you think it was the actual sun and not a vision? No Catholic thinks that.
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 10:52:08 AM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?

How do you explain the fact that if the sun did what was claimed it was not witnessed by at least half the world that was in the day light hours?

Orthodoc
The fact that it was a vision that occured in Fatima and not all over the world. duh.

If the sun (a planet) was moving all over the sky as reported, it should have been seen by half the earth that was facing the sun and not covered by clouds.  DUH!  Or did the Sun just somehow come over Fatima and left the rest of the earth facing it at the time in a cloudy mass?  If the sun was actually moving through the sky it should have been visible to more than 60,000 people.  Unless, of course they were all hallucinating or brain dead!

Orthodoc
So you think it was the actual sun and not a vision? No Catholic thinks that.

I think it was all a big hoax!  As I stated before, the whole thing is too out of character for our Blessed Mother and role She was chosen to play in Her son's life!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 12:16:12 PM »

Yes, how do you explain all of the witnesses?

How do you explain the fact that if the sun did what was claimed it was not witnessed by at least half the world that was in the day light hours?

Orthodoc
The fact that it was a vision that occured in Fatima and not all over the world. duh.

If the sun (a planet) was moving all over the sky as reported, it should have been seen by half the earth that was facing the sun and not covered by clouds.  DUH!  Or did the Sun just somehow come over Fatima and left the rest of the earth facing it at the time in a cloudy mass?  If the sun was actually moving through the sky it should have been visible to more than 60,000 people.  Unless, of course they were all hallucinating or brain dead!

Orthodoc
So you think it was the actual sun and not a vision? No Catholic thinks that.

I think it was all a big hoax!  As I stated before, the whole thing is too out of character for our Blessed Mother and role She was chosen to play in Her son's life!

Orthodoc
You whole argument about the sun was fallacious, because no one assumes that it was the actual sun but a vision.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 01:18:28 PM »

Orthodoc,

Read True Devotion to Mary (or True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, as it is sometimes called) by St. Louis de Montfort if you wish to apprehend better the Catholic understanding of Mary and her roles and of the nature of "consecration" to her. With all respect, it seems you have a rather dim idea of these subjects.

You can find it reproduced online in various languages.
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 01:27:37 PM »

Read True Devotion to Mary (or True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, as it is sometimes called) by St. Louis de Montfort if you wish to apprehend better the Catholic understanding of Mary and her roles and of the nature of "consecration" to her.

Was it not Louis de Montfort who proposes the idea of the Virgin Mary
as Co-redeemer?
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 05:04:18 PM »

Read True Devotion to Mary (or True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, as it is sometimes called) by St. Louis de Montfort if you wish to apprehend better the Catholic understanding of Mary and her roles and of the nature of "consecration" to her.

Was it not Louis de Montfort who proposes the idea of the Virgin Mary
as Co-redeemer?

Read the book.
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 07:36:04 PM »


Here's a link to the referenced book by St. Louis de Montfort:

http://www.catholicbible101.com/TRUE%20DEVOTION%20TO%20THE%20BLESSED%20VIRGIN.pdf

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