Author Topic: Judas' Role  (Read 765 times)

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Offline yochanan

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Judas' Role
« on: March 31, 2010, 08:52:30 AM »
A few questions:

1. If Christ's death is the cause of life eternal, and Judas is the cause of Christ's death, then wouldn't that imply that Judas cause is life eternal?
2. If Judas (or anyone) hadn't betrayed Jesus and Jesus didn't die -- would we have been saved?

I know that these questions are speculative and pose no real interest (or threat) to us Orthodox (since we trust Christ) but if you may please shed me some light on this matter.  ;D
"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." (Acts 15: 28)

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2010, 11:01:24 AM »
1. If Christ's death is the cause of life eternal, and Judas is the cause of Christ's death, then wouldn't that imply that Judas cause is life eternal?
Actually, Christ has opened the door to eternal life for us and it is His Resurrection which proves His power over death. Neither of these things were caused by Judas so any implication to him is just silly.

2. If Judas (or anyone) hadn't betrayed Jesus and Jesus didn't die -- would we have been saved?
Why waste time on such silly speculation.

Instead, revel in the fact that Christ has Risen and that eternal life is now open to us.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2010, 11:38:58 AM »
1. If Christ's death is the cause of life eternal, and Judas is the cause of Christ's death, then wouldn't that imply that Judas cause is life eternal?
Actually, Christ has opened the door to eternal life for us and it is His Resurrection which proves His power over death. Neither of these things were caused by Judas so any implication to him is just silly.

2. If Judas (or anyone) hadn't betrayed Jesus and Jesus didn't die -- would we have been saved?
Why waste time on such silly speculation.

Instead, revel in the fact that Christ has Risen and that eternal life is now open to us.

I think that Judas is a prototype, in addition to being an actor the unfolding story of our Lord's passion, crucifixion, and glorious resurrection.  Judas is a prototype for us in that we all have the proclivity to betray the Lord, not necessarily by denouncing Him but by not following Him, by turning away from Him, by being lukewarm, etc.

Offline yochanan

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2010, 12:00:53 PM »
1. If Christ's death is the cause of life eternal, and Judas is the cause of Christ's death, then wouldn't that imply that Judas cause is life eternal?
Actually, Christ has opened the door to eternal life for us and it is His Resurrection which proves His power over death. Neither of these things were caused by Judas so any implication to him is just silly.

2. If Judas (or anyone) hadn't betrayed Jesus and Jesus didn't die -- would we have been saved?
Why waste time on such silly speculation.

Instead, revel in the fact that Christ has Risen and that eternal life is now open to us.


'but with God all things are possible' eh? (Matt. 19:26)
"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." (Acts 15: 28)

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2010, 09:35:53 PM »
1. If Christ's death is the cause of life eternal, and Judas is the cause of Christ's death, then wouldn't that imply that Judas cause is life eternal?

No.  To quote St. John Chrysostom's anaphora, "On the night when He was betrayed, or rather when He gave Himself up for the life of the world..." (HC translation).  Whether Judas betrays Him or not, it is only with His will, decision, and direction that the Passion takes place.  He first had to voluntarily submit Himself to the events to come before they could take place - otherwise, as the Devil points out when tempting Christ, 12 Legions of Angels could have easily shown up.

2. If Judas (or anyone) hadn't betrayed Jesus and Jesus didn't die -- would we have been saved?

Yes.  We clearly state that the Lord knew from even before Adam's fall that He would save us, and that when man fell, it was a forgone conclusion that He would do something to redeem us... To quote St. Basil's anaphora:
Quote from: St. Basil the Great, HC translation
But when he disobeyed You, the true God who had created him, and was led astray by the deception of the serpent becoming subject to death through his own transgressions, You, O God, in Your righteous judgment, expelled him from paradise into this world, returning him to the earth from which he was taken, yet providing for him the salvation of regeneration in Your Christ. For You did not forever reject Your creature whom You made, O Good One, nor did You forget the work of Your hands, but because of Your tender compassion, You visited him in various ways: You sent forth prophets; You performed mighty works by Your saints who in every generation have pleased You. You spoke to us by the mouth of Your servants the prophets, announcing to us the salvation which was to come; You gave us the law to help us; You appointed angels as guardians. And when the fullness of time had come, You spoke to us through Your Son Himself, through whom You created the ages. He, being the splendor of Your glory and the image of Your being, upholding all things by the word of His power, thought it not robbery to be equal with You, God and Father. But, being God before all ages, He appeared on earth and lived with humankind. Becoming incarnate from a holy Virgin, He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, conforming to the body of our lowliness, that He might change us in the likeness of the image of His glory. For, since through man sin came into the world and through sin death, it pleased Your only begotten Son, who is in Your bosom, God and Father, born of a woman, the holy Theotokos and ever virgin Mary; born under the law, to condemn sin in His flesh, so that those who died in Adam may be brought to life in Him, Your Christ.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline yochanan

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2010, 10:18:17 PM »
1. If Christ's death is the cause of life eternal, and Judas is the cause of Christ's death, then wouldn't that imply that Judas cause is life eternal?

No.  To quote St. John Chrysostom's anaphora, "On the night when He was betrayed, or rather when He gave Himself up for the life of the world..." (HC translation).  Whether Judas betrays Him or not, it is only with His will, decision, and direction that the Passion takes place.  He first had to voluntarily submit Himself to the events to come before they could take place - otherwise, as the Devil points out when tempting Christ, 12 Legions of Angels could have easily shown up.

2. If Judas (or anyone) hadn't betrayed Jesus and Jesus didn't die -- would we have been saved?

Yes.  We clearly state that the Lord knew from even before Adam's fall that He would save us, and that when man fell, it was a forgone conclusion that He would do something to redeem us... To quote St. Basil's anaphora:
Quote from: St. Basil the Great, HC translation
But when he disobeyed You, the true God who had created him, and was led astray by the deception of the serpent becoming subject to death through his own transgressions, You, O God, in Your righteous judgment, expelled him from paradise into this world, returning him to the earth from which he was taken, yet providing for him the salvation of regeneration in Your Christ. For You did not forever reject Your creature whom You made, O Good One, nor did You forget the work of Your hands, but because of Your tender compassion, You visited him in various ways: You sent forth prophets; You performed mighty works by Your saints who in every generation have pleased You. You spoke to us by the mouth of Your servants the prophets, announcing to us the salvation which was to come; You gave us the law to help us; You appointed angels as guardians. And when the fullness of time had come, You spoke to us through Your Son Himself, through whom You created the ages. He, being the splendor of Your glory and the image of Your being, upholding all things by the word of His power, thought it not robbery to be equal with You, God and Father. But, being God before all ages, He appeared on earth and lived with humankind. Becoming incarnate from a holy Virgin, He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, conforming to the body of our lowliness, that He might change us in the likeness of the image of His glory. For, since through man sin came into the world and through sin death, it pleased Your only begotten Son, who is in Your bosom, God and Father, born of a woman, the holy Theotokos and ever virgin Mary; born under the law, to condemn sin in His flesh, so that those who died in Adam may be brought to life in Him, Your Christ.

So, it'd be better to focus on 'He gave Himself up for the life of the world' -- He could have found infinite other ways to save the world if He wasn't betrayed. He is infinitely-wise after all!

Thank you, Father for teaching me these things.
"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." (Acts 15: 28)

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2010, 11:10:48 PM »
So, it'd be better to focus on 'He gave Himself up for the life of the world' -- He could have found infinite other ways to save the world if He wasn't betrayed. He is infinitely-wise after all!

Indeed.  He willingly gave Himself up in the way He did - as a sign of His love (through self-sacrifice), and as a sign of the love we should have for others.  Yes, He could have accomplished salvation in any infinite upon infinite number of ways, but He chose what He did for our benefit, sanctification, and union with Him.

Thank you, Father for teaching me these things.

Thank the Lord - He's the one who inspired those who really taught this lesson (Sts. John and Basil).  Oh, and thank Him for the internet ;)
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Judas' Role
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2010, 11:37:29 PM »
'but with God all things are possible' eh? (Matt. 19:26)[/i]

Is that the Canadian translation?  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11