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Author Topic: The Eucharist?  (Read 8988 times) Average Rating: 0
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Christianus
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« on: March 28, 2010, 12:55:26 AM »

if the Eucharist is not symbolic, and actually is the body of Christ, then are we really cannibals?
is it cannibalism? Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh
 Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh
Someone answer for the benefit of my soul.   Cry
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2010, 01:15:24 AM »

We are partaking of God so we can be like God.

As St. Athanasius says, "God became man so that man may become God."
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2010, 03:08:30 AM »

I found this thread, which deals somewhat with the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9876.0.html

If I understand correctly, cannibalism is eating the dead flesh of a dead person.  In the Eucharist, we are partaking of the Living, Resurrected God.

I also would be interested in hearing a fuller explanation from someone more knowledgeable about these things.
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 03:11:35 AM »

if the Eucharist is not symbolic, and actually is the body of Christ, then are we really cannibals?
is it cannibalism? Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh
 Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh
Someone answer for the benefit of my soul.   Cry

I think you need to ask the Lord to give you peace, and see the Eucharist for the great Mystery it is, instead of looking at it on such a grossly base and fleshly level.  Forgive me, I am not trying to be insulting; many have had difficulties with this.  Perhaps I should have said that you should ask God for the wisdom and Grace to perceive this Mystery in the proper way and to give you reassurance.  You could read John 6:25-69 for a good start.  Remember that the text of the Divine Liturgy refers to the "reasonable and bloodless worship" of the Eucharistic sacrifice and the "mystical supper."  Also, during the liturgy we slowly ascend to the eternal  Kingdom of God for a time.  It is only in the Kingdom that bread and wine can become the Body and Blood of Christ: in our fallen world it is impossible for this to happen.  

Paradoxically, of course, we are trying to bring God's Kingdom into this world in order to sanctify and save it, to "actualise" God's Kingdom now, but this does not really have to do with your question.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 02:42:04 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 06:58:34 AM »

The word in Greek for the meaning of the "change," is metasiosis," a change in essence, not in substance.  "Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here spread forth.  And make this bread the precious Body of Christ, and that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Christ, changing them by The Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen."

Holy Communion is "the Very Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 01:59:06 PM »

The word in Greek for the meaning of the "change," is metasiosis," a change in essence, not in substance.  "Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here spread forth.  And make this bread the precious Body of Christ, and that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Christ, changing them by The Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen."

Holy Communion is "the Very Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."

I think I might understand what you are getting at here, but I am not sure if your point is clear to the OP or if it provides answers to his question.

What is the point you are trying to make?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 02:39:02 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 08:51:01 PM »

The word in Greek for the meaning of the "change," is metasiosis," a change in essence, not in substance.  "Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here spread forth.  And make this bread the precious Body of Christ, and that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Christ, changing them by The Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Amen."

Holy Communion is "the Very Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."

I think I might understand what you are getting at here, but I am not sure if your point is clear to the OP or if it provides answers to his question.

What is the point you are trying to make?

Hmm, I'm beginning to suspect this forum doesn't have any experts in the faith.
I've learned more about orthodoxy from reading books written by orthodox priests, and monks, than here.
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 08:55:09 PM »

I've learned more about orthodoxy from reading books written by orthodox priests, and monks, than here.

I'd be pretty worried if you learned more about Orthodoxy on an open discussion forum than from academic books written by experts.
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 08:58:14 PM »

I found this thread, which deals somewhat with the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9876.0.html

If I understand correctly, cannibalism is eating the dead flesh of a dead person.  In the Eucharist, we are partaking of the Living, Resurrected God.

I also would be interested in hearing a fuller explanation from someone more knowledgeable about these things.

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 09:01:34 PM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 09:02:08 PM by Orthodox11 » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 09:01:40 PM »

I've learned more about orthodoxy from reading books written by orthodox priests, and monks, than here.

I'd be pretty worried if you learned more about Orthodoxy on an open discussion forum than from academic books written by experts.
I"d expect everyone to know here, or at least give me links, or materials.
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 09:13:28 PM »

Hmm, I'm beginning to suspect this forum doesn't have any experts in the faith.

You're asking a question, but then judging the credentials of those whom you ask?  What madness is this?

I've learned more about orthodoxy from reading books written by orthodox priests, and monks, than here.

I'm glad you've learned much elsewhere.  Your answer is already contained in this thread; to wit:

Your Question:
if the Eucharist is not symbolic, and actually is the body of Christ, then are we really cannibals?
is it cannibalism?

Answer 1:
We are partaking of God so we can be like God.

Amen.  You don't eat food/flesh to become one with the dead plant/animal/man/woman - you do it to consume them, and eliminate them to give yourself energy.  You partake of the Body and Blood of Christ to be One with Him - you do not destroy His Body and Blood, but rather become one with them and Him.  So no, it's not cannibalism.

Answer 2
If I understand correctly, cannibalism is eating the dead flesh of a dead person.  In the Eucharist, we are partaking of the Living, Resurrected God.

Amen.  The Body and Blood of Christ are not dead, but Life Eternal; they are not subject to decay, but instead are the source of Everlasting Existence.  What you partake of is not rotting, decaying, decrepit, like all your other food - it is Life, Power, the Body and Blood of Christ.  So no, it's not cannibalism.

Answer 3:
I think you need to ask the Lord to give you peace, and see the Eucharist for the great Mystery it is, instead of looking at it on such a grossly base and fleshly level.  Forgive me, I am not trying to be insulting; many have had difficulties with this.  Perhaps I should have said that you should ask God for the wisdom and Grace to perceive this Mystery in the proper way and to give you reassurance.  You could read John 6:25-69 for a good start.  Remember that the text of the Divine Liturgy refers to the "reasonable and bloodless worship" of the Eucharistic sacrifice and the "mystical supper."  Also, during the liturgy we slowly ascend to the eternal  Kingdom of God for a time.  It is only in the Kingdom that bread and wine can become the Body and Blood of Christ: in our fallen world it is impossible for this to happen. 

Amen.  Let me give you first the passage from scripture Pravoslavbob has referenced:

Quote from: NIV
When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"  Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."  Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."  So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"  Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."  "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."  At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"  Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"  Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!  The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.  Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."  From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.  "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

If you have a question about His Body and Blood, why not see what He has to say about it first?  If you have further questions after reading Christ's words above, then read it again twice.  If the questions persist, then ask them here, and be prepared for the answer - it may be what you expect, and it may not be; pray only that the Holy Spirit guide those who seek to help you grow in your faith.
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 10:50:51 PM »

You're awesome, Fr. George.   Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2010, 07:22:54 PM »

Christianus,

Satan always assails Holy Mysteries and sacred teachings with accusations such as this. But reverse the question and you will have your answer. Cannibalism is actually a perversion of the sacred Mystery of the Holy Eucharist, not the other way around.

Some claim that the Mystery of the Resurrection and the Mystery of the Eucharist are spurious beliefs that mimic vampirism (rising from the dead, drinking life-giving blood). But vampirism is actually a gross perversion and mockery of God's Holy Mysteries.

So, when you encounter arguments and questions that cast aspersion on holy things, do not doubt or lose faith. Affirm the Mysteries, and know that if they were not holy and divine then they would not be attacked so ferociously.

Peace to you.

Selam
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2010, 06:03:26 PM »

I'm a closet orthodox now.... "
I've been to the orthodox church in my area today where they read the Bible aloud in Latin: when I heard them reading it, I became very happy, and I thought to myself that the Orthodox church respects/venerate my Latin culture. even though most modern day romans don't understand their ancient culture.

What kind of body do the orthodox eat in divine liturgy?
is it a spiritual body, or the physical earthly body of Christ???
What?
Someone tell me exactly what you're all eating.
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2010, 06:17:16 PM »

What kind of body do the orthodox eat in divine liturgy?
is it a spiritual body, or the physical earthly body of Christ???
What?
Someone tell me exactly what you're all eating.

"The body which was born of the Virgin Mary, without any stain, without destruction of her virginity, without opening of the womb, without presence of man, and which was crucified by the unbelieving Jews out of spite and envy, and which arose after three days from death, and sits upon the right hand of God the father in heaven, in glory and in dignity before the angels of heaven.  It is the body the same as it is in this great glory, which the righteous consume off God's table, that is, off the holy altar.  For this body is the rich medicine of the faithful, who journey through the paths of pilgrimage and repentance of this world to the heavenly homeland.  This is the seed of the resurrection in the life eternal to the righteous." (From the Leabhar Breac, 7th or 8th century)

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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2010, 10:30:11 PM »

What kind of body do the orthodox eat in divine liturgy?
is it a spiritual body, or the physical earthly body of Christ???

It is the physical earthly body of Christ, except that unlike your body and mine, it has been transformed (or "transfigured"). When it has undergone this transformation or transfiguration, it acquired some very peculiar properties, of which we can have only approximate understanding. For example, it became able to appear in more than one place at a single time (Christ is simultaneously on earth as well as in Heaven, and He is in every single Chalice during the Divine Liturgies served in thousands of different parishes). Also, our human senses, as we have them now (in our fallen state) are unable to detect this body; instead, they detect bread and wine, even though there is no bread and no wine in the Chalice after the Epiklesis - rather, only Christ's true Body and Christ's true Blood.

Father Ambrose - I am surprised that you could not give the answer I gave. The answer you gave is not rationally comprehensible for all I know (of course not that I know anything...)
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2010, 11:20:03 PM »

What kind of body do the orthodox eat in divine liturgy?
is it a spiritual body, or the physical earthly body of Christ???

It is the physical earthly body of Christ, except that unlike your body and mine, it has been transformed (or "transfigured"). When it has undergone this transformation or transfiguration, it acquired some very peculiar properties, of which we can have only approximate understanding. For example, it became able to appear in more than one place at a single time (Christ is simultaneously on earth as well as in Heaven, and He is in every single Chalice during the Divine Liturgies served in thousands of different parishes). Also, our human senses, as we have them now (in our fallen state) are unable to detect this body; instead, they detect bread and wine, even though there is no bread and no wine in the Chalice after the Epiklesis - rather, only Christ's true Body and Christ's true Blood.

Father Ambrose - I am surprised that you could not give the answer I gave. The answer you gave is not rationally comprehensible for all I know (of course not that I know anything...)


I am sorry if this sounded contentious or disrespectful, but this whole story about the body of Christ and the bodies of resurrected humans is really bothering me as it is contradictory to the extreme. One of the Holy Fathers of the Church, St. John of Damascus, says, in his "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Fath," that Christ, having ascended to heaven, sits BODILY on the right hand of the Fahter (meaning, of course, that He is sitting in a position of glory, for Father, being without body, does not have the literal right side - and yet, nonetheless, He, Christ, has our body with its spacial limitations, and so He indeed sits BODILY, literally, on a certain throne). Flying in the face of this, a paragraph from doctrinal writings on the OCA web page says that (I quote from memory and, therefore, not literally - but anyone can check) that "Christ sitting on the right hand of the Father certainly does not mean that He has a literal body and literally sits on a literal throne.". In our recent discussions here on OC.net, Witega, one of the most erudite posters I know, wrote that he was not sure whether the body of resurrected Christ was (is) "material," in that it has any elements of matter, like cells or molecules or atoms. It's all utterly confusing and simply strange... Is MATTER saved? Can anyone give a plain answer, and if yes - is our resurrected body MATTER - like, ahem, hydrogen, oxygen, covalent bonds, nuclei, neitrons, protons, bozons, gluons, and whatever it is out there? Or NOT? And if not - what will it be? And what is this Body of Christ that we chew on...?
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2010, 11:24:05 PM »

^^ Moderators, I am sorry, this perhaps goes beyond the scope of the Converts' page of this forum; please feel free to meove anywhere you see fit, just do not delete please...
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 12:13:30 AM »


Father Ambrose - I am surprised that you could not give the answer I gave. The answer you gave is not rationally comprehensible for all I know...


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Dear Heorhij,

I could not give the answer you gave because you were anwering a question which had not been asked!!

The question which was asked was:  "Someone tell me exactly what you're all eating."  and my quote in message 35 gave a precise answer to the question.   You, on the other hand, ventured into other unasked fields of the hows and the whys and the wherefores and the manner thereof...   I simply answered the question.


I was raised in the typical reticence of Orthodoxy and prefer it to the over abundant explications offered by the West.   So long as the belief is stated clearly - as it was in the quote I gave and which you see as "not rationally comprehensible" - that is usually sufficient.


To quote Saint John of Damascus...


Concerning the holy and immaculate Mysteries of the Lord.


"To the divinity (of Christ) is united the body which took its origin from
the holy virgin. Not that because this body which has been received into
heaven, descends, but because the bread and wine are changed into the Body
and Blood of God. If you want to know how this is done let it suffice for
you to hear that it is done by the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took to
Himself flesh from the Mother of God, which subsisted in Himself. We do not
need to see or to go further than the fact that the word of God is true and
efficacious and can do all things; the matter cannot be investigated
further."


"On the Orthodox Faith" by St John of Damascus Chapter 13.
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 08:30:32 AM »

^^He is risen indeed! Thank you, Father.

Well, I am not "Western" in my upbringing or in my mentality. But I am not Orthodox either, perhaps, or not the kind of Orthodox you and St. John of Damascus seem to mean.

This "not venturing in the hows and whys" leads to confusion and contention. A simple and fundamental question, is MATTER to be saved, is not being answered straightforwardly. We are not explained by our theological authorities, is the body of Christ material or not. We are not explained, will our resurrected bodies be material or not. When ancients attempt to give answers, these answers are verbose beatings about the bush, and they contradict each other and especially modern excerpts from catechisms (the modern ones seeming to be more "anti-material" than the ancient).

Yes, I admit that these questions were not asked by the OP in their straightforward form, but they are being asked, and they remain unanswered.
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2010, 10:16:11 AM »

^^He is risen indeed! Thank you, Father.

Well, I am not "Western" in my upbringing or in my mentality. But I am not Orthodox either, perhaps, or not the kind of Orthodox you and St. John of Damascus seem to mean.

This "not venturing in the hows and whys" leads to confusion and contention. A simple and fundamental question, is MATTER to be saved, is not being answered straightforwardly. We are not explained by our theological authorities, is the body of Christ material or not. We are not explained, will our resurrected bodies be material or not. When ancients attempt to give answers, these answers are verbose beatings about the bush, and they contradict each other and especially modern excerpts from catechisms (the modern ones seeming to be more "anti-material" than the ancient).

Yes, I admit that these questions were not asked by the OP in their straightforward form, but they are being asked, and they remain unanswered.

Christ is risen!ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕС!

http://books.google.com/books?id=uG7YAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA415&lpg=PA415&dq=I+confess+that+in+this+flesh+we+shall+rise+again+Eutychius&source=bl&ots=EB6pVP0hPE&sig=R9wT9-nE7bsG7CHciPlAEFdeqkg&hl=en&ei=5u65S_TsJYuyNqLR9KQE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=I%20confess%20that%20in%20this%20flesh%20we%20shall%20rise%20again%20Eutychius&f=false
A dictionary of christian biography, literature, sects and ..., Volume 1 By Henry Wace, p. 415.

Quote
Toward the end of his life, Eutychius maintained an opinion that after the resurrection the body will be "more subtle than air" and no longer a tangible thing. This was considered heretical, because it was taken as a denial of the doctrine of physical, corporeal resurrection. The future Pope Gregory the Great, then residing at Constantinople as Apocrisiarius, opposed this opinion, citing Luke 24:39. Emperor Tiberius talked to the disputants separately, and tried to reconcile them, but the breach was persistent.

Eutychius died quietly on the Sunday after Easter, at the age of 70. Some of his friends later told Pope Gregory that a few minutes before his death he touched the skin of his hand and said, "I confess that in this flesh we shall rise again", a rough quote of Job 19:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Eutychius_of_Constantinople
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 02:21:23 PM »

A simple and fundamental question, is MATTER to be saved, is not being answered straightforwardly.

Yes. Creation itself, which is groaning for redemption (Rom 8:19), will be set aright. There will be "a new earth, in which righteousness will be established" (2 Peter 3:13). Or, as Fr. Hopko says in the rainbow series:

Quote
The Orthodox Church does not believe merely in the immortality of the soul, and in the goodness and ultimate salvation of only spiritual reality. Following the Scriptures, Orthodox Christians believe in the goodness of the human body and of all material and physical creation. Thus, in its faith in resurrection and eternal life, the Orthodox Church looks not to some "other world" for salvation, but to this very world so loved by God, resurrected and glorified by Him, tilled with His own divine presence.

At the end of the ages God will reveal His presence and will fill all creation with Himself. For those who love Him it will be paradise. For those who hate Him it will be hell. And all physical creation, together with the righteous, will rejoice and be glad in His coming.

We are not explained, will our resurrected bodies be material or not.

"What we shall be has not yet been disclosed, but we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

We know Christ after his resurrection was material in some way. And St. Paul confirms that our resurrection, like Christ's, will be material. How the molecules will be arranged is not clear and questions of the actual material composition are totally ignored in the Scriptures. The critical thing, according to St. Paul, is that our bodies, just like our minds, are currently psychikon, whereas upon resurrection they will be pneumatikon. In the context of the letter to the Corinthians, psychikon means conformed to the mindset or reality of this age, whereas pneumatikon means conformed to the reality of the new creation.

Anything more than that is impossible to say, really. Even from a scientific perspective, our bodies are in a state of constant change on a molecular level, so our diachronic body is not even a single entity. Given that, science is just as hard pressed as theology to explain how the embodied self can be "one." I don't know too much about Physics, but, especially if you throw some Quantum Mechanics in there, the very idea of "matter" becomes difficult. In the very least, we and all of the universe are in a state of constant transformation, no?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 02:23:26 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 02:24:45 PM »

We are not cannibals because

1- People practising cannibalism turn physical human body to food/bread. In the Eucharistic celebration, however, the food/bread is turned into Jesus' body.

2- When cannibals eat human flesh, humans die; but in the Eucharistic celebration Jesus' body is not dead. We receive Jesus' risen and living body.

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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2010, 04:33:35 PM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Orthodox11 writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.

fixed source per request of author - Arimethea
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 03:06:37 PM by arimethea » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2010, 12:51:20 AM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Christianus writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.
I think I'm starting to understand more about the Eucharist. so...
If Christ's body were only carnal as ours, then it would be cannibalism?
But because his body is a physical spiritual body then it's not really cannibalism?
hmm so Christ's body was a physical spiritual body right?
not a physical worldly corpus/ body?
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2010, 01:04:14 AM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Christianus writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.
I think I'm starting to understand more about the Eucharist. so...
If Christ's body were only carnal as ours, then it would be cannibalism?
But because his body is a physical spiritual body then it's not really cannibalism?
hmm so Christ's body was a physical spiritual body right?
not a physical worldly corpus/ body?


I don't think it's spiritually beneficial to speculate on such matters too much. We know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord. We know the What. We do not know How this can be. It is a Mystery. Other than that...become Orthodox and you will experience it for yourself. Otherwise, I don't find it helpful to speak in such detail regarding the Holy Mysteries. They are there to be experienced, not to be overanalysed, explained, and dissected.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2010, 01:11:51 AM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Christianus writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.
I think I'm starting to understand more about the Eucharist. so...
If Christ's body were only carnal as ours, then it would be cannibalism?
But because his body is a physical spiritual body then it's not really cannibalism?
hmm so Christ's body was a physical spiritual body right?
not a physical worldly corpus/ body?


I don't think it's spiritually beneficial to speculate on such matters too much. We know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord. We know the What. We do not know How this can be. It is a Mystery. Other than that...become Orthodox and you will experience it for yourself. Otherwise, I don't find it helpful to speak in such detail regarding the Holy Mysteries. They are there to be experienced, not to be overanalysed, explained, and dissected.
Well, what do you experience when you eat the eucharist?
When you take it, do you feel like you've become better person?
or what?
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2010, 01:15:40 AM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Christianus writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.
I think I'm starting to understand more about the Eucharist. so...
If Christ's body were only carnal as ours, then it would be cannibalism?
But because his body is a physical spiritual body then it's not really cannibalism?
hmm so Christ's body was a physical spiritual body right?
not a physical worldly corpus/ body?


I don't think it's spiritually beneficial to speculate on such matters too much. We know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord. We know the What. We do not know How this can be. It is a Mystery. Other than that...become Orthodox and you will experience it for yourself. Otherwise, I don't find it helpful to speak in such detail regarding the Holy Mysteries. They are there to be experienced, not to be overanalysed, explained, and dissected.
Well, what do you experience when you eat the eucharist?
When you take it, do you feel like you've become better person?
or what?

Have you been baptised and chrismated an Orthodox Christian??
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2010, 02:08:13 AM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Christianus writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.
I think I'm starting to understand more about the Eucharist. so...
If Christ's body were only carnal as ours, then it would be cannibalism?
But because his body is a physical spiritual body then it's not really cannibalism?
hmm so Christ's body was a physical spiritual body right?
not a physical worldly corpus/ body?


I don't think it's spiritually beneficial to speculate on such matters too much. We know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord. We know the What. We do not know How this can be. It is a Mystery. Other than that...become Orthodox and you will experience it for yourself. Otherwise, I don't find it helpful to speak in such detail regarding the Holy Mysteries. They are there to be experienced, not to be overanalysed, explained, and dissected.
Well, what do you experience when you eat the eucharist?
When you take it, do you feel like you've become better person?
or what?

Have you been baptised and chrismated an Orthodox Christian??
no.why do you ask?
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2010, 02:34:47 AM »


Have you been baptised and chrismated an Orthodox Christian??
no.why do you ask?
Christ is Risen!
Ta Criost eirithe!

 
He asks because for some things it can make quite a difference. The 3rd century Saint Hippolytus of Rome says that there are things which cannot be understood adequately unless one is inside the Church, living the life of the Church.
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2010, 02:44:21 AM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol," i.e., that the Eucharist is not Christ's true Body and Blood. I prefer to read it as an expression of this sentiment from the Akathist to Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos:

Having beheld a strange nativity, let us estrange ourselves from the world and transport our minds to heaven; for the Most High God appeared on earth as a lowly man, because He wished to draw to the heights them that cry to Him: Alleluia!

The Jews were understanding eating Christ's Body and Blood in carnal terms. While not denying His literal, physical, real presence in the Eucharist, our Lord is reminding the disciples not to think in fallen, carnal categories.

"What then, is not His flesh, flesh?" Most certainly. "How then saith He, that the flesh profiteth nothing?" He speaketh not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is "understanding carnally"? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eateth not His flesh, and drinketh not His blood, hath no life in him. How then doth "the flesh profit nothing," if without it we cannot live? Seest thou that the words, "the flesh profiteth nothing," are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing? (John the Goldenmouthed, HOMILY XLVII: JOHN vi. 53, 54.)

In the Orthodox Church we speak of the Most Holy Sacrament as both true/real and mystical.

This is my understanding. Wiser folks, please correct any errors I make:

Christ's resurrected body is a spiritual body, which in no way means that it is an immaterial or non-physical body. However, we should not understand the Holy Mysteries in carnal terms because what we know as matter is fallen matter, which has become alienated so to speak from the spiritual. In Christ's Eternal Kingdom, of which the Mysteries are a foretaste, matter, the whole created realm, and especially man, all of which God created good and as a temple of His Presence, will be restored and elevated to its true state. Christ became material in part to divinize and spiritualize matter.

In terms of the Eucharist, the flesh truly would profit nothing were Christ's body merely flesh, were Christ a mere man. But we know that Jesus Christ is both Perfect Man and Perfect God! If it is the spirit that quickeneth, how much will we be quickened by God's Holy Spirit which comes to us in the Body and Blood of His Anointed! As Christianus writes, "because [the Eucharist] is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine!" (quoted above)

***

It seems to me the important thing is to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, and that the Holy Mysteries are truly His immaculate Body and truly His precious Blood, which we receive unto remission of sins and unto life everlasting.
I think I'm starting to understand more about the Eucharist. so...
If Christ's body were only carnal as ours, then it would be cannibalism?
But because his body is a physical spiritual body then it's not really cannibalism?
hmm so Christ's body was a physical spiritual body right?
not a physical worldly corpus/ body?


I don't think it's spiritually beneficial to speculate on such matters too much. We know that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord. We know the What. We do not know How this can be. It is a Mystery. Other than that...become Orthodox and you will experience it for yourself. Otherwise, I don't find it helpful to speak in such detail regarding the Holy Mysteries. They are there to be experienced, not to be overanalysed, explained, and dissected.
Well, what do you experience when you eat the eucharist?
When you take it, do you feel like you've become better person?
or what?

Have you been baptised and chrismated an Orthodox Christian??
no.why do you ask?

Because if you wish to know what the experience is like, then you should become Orthodox. Otherwise, as I stated above, in my personal opinion it is a Mystery of the Church and is restricted to its members only. That restriction is in place for a reason. The Eucharist is not something to trifled with. As you are not Orthodox, you should seek God with all your heart, attend Orthodox services as much as possible, and consult regularly with an Orthodox priest. I find many inquirers have a certain affliction--I had this affliction as an inquirer--whereas they are still caught up in the "Western" mode of thinking. There is not an explanation for everything, the limitations of language and our minds can not fully comprehend the Glory that is God. Yet, when we fall into this affliction...when we seek to know every thing there is to know, and read all the books out there, and try to put everything into words, then there is a tendency to limit God, to bring Him down to our level and place Him inside our minds in a tidy little box. Such an approach can get us into alot of trouble. I am not saying this is you, but from my experience this is a danger you should be aware of. Pray. Go to Church. Remember God. You will fall, and stumble, and make mistakes. We all do. Talk with a priest. When you feel called to do so, be received into the Church. After that, start going to confession and receiving the Eucharist. The oceans of Orthodoxy are wide and deep. Often we try to drink too much....and we drown. Take small sips at a time.
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2010, 08:28:43 AM »

Quote
Toward the end of his life, Eutychius maintained an opinion that after the resurrection the body will be "more subtle than air" and no longer a tangible thing. This was considered heretical, because it was taken as a denial of the doctrine of physical, corporeal resurrection. The future Pope Gregory the Great, then residing at Constantinople as Apocrisiarius, opposed this opinion, citing Luke 24:39. Emperor Tiberius talked to the disputants separately, and tried to reconcile them, but the breach was persistent.

Eutychius died quietly on the Sunday after Easter, at the age of 70. Some of his friends later told Pope Gregory that a few minutes before his death he touched the skin of his hand and said, "I confess that in this flesh we shall rise again", a rough quote of Job 19:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Eutychius_of_Constantinople

Isa, thank you so much for this; for me, this is very helpful, indeed.

However! High-positioned hierarchs of the Orthodox Church seem to either misunderstand this, or conscientiously deny this.

Here is a quote (in Russian) from Metr. +HILARION of Vienna and all Austria, from his book, published online, under the title, "The Mystery of Faith: an Introduction into the Orthodox Dogmatic Theology:"

"Новое, "прославленное" тело человека будет подобно телу Христа после Его Воскресения, когда Он являлся ученикам, проходя сквозь запертые двери (Ин. 20:19, 26). Оно будет нематериальным, световидным и легким, однако сохранит "образ" земного материального тела, причем никакие недостатки материального тела, как, например, различные увечья, признаки старения и пр., не будут ему присущи." http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/alfeev2/Main.htm, Chapter XI.

My translation:  "The new, "glorified" body of a human being will be similar to the body of Christ after His resurrection, when He appeared to His disciples passing through locked doors (Jn. 20:19, 26). It will be non-material (or not made of matter), similar to light and without weight, even though it will preserve a certain "image" of the earthly material body; no shortcomings of the material body, such as various handicaps or signs of aging, etc. will be characteristic to it."

Clearly, an Orthodox bishop banishes matter from the resurrected body. In the passage above, he is not talking about transfiguration or transformation of matter; rather, he OPPOSES the new "immaterial" body to the OLD, EARTHY, MATERIAL body.

And this is what, as I have seen many-many times, my fellow Ukrainians accept immediately and believe wholeheartedly. When I as much a allude that MATTER, substance, atoms, electrons, protons, gluons and what not will be transformed in the Kingdom, they inevitably conclude that I am just insane, or unbelievably stupid.

As for the Eucharist, I think most of my fellow Ukrainians believe that it is simply bread and wine. When you have faith, then *FOR YOU* the Eucharist begins to have some "spiritual" value. Again, the idea that when a priest calls the Holy Spirit in epiclesis, and the Holy Spirit REALLY transforms the matter of the Gifts into the flesh and blood of resurrected and ascended Christ, is COMPLETELY foreign to them. When I voiced it on the Maidan forum, the unanimous reaction was that I am, again, unbelievably stupid and that I am compromising the Church, giving the Church a bad reputation because of expressing such insane, anti-Christian, cannibalistic, and, worst of all, "MATERIALISTIC" ideas.
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2010, 10:15:00 AM »

"Новое, "прославленное" тело человека будет подобно телу Христа после Его Воскресения, когда Он являлся ученикам, проходя сквозь запертые двери (Ин. 20:19, 26). Оно будет нематериальным, световидным и легким, однако сохранит "образ" земного материального тела, причем никакие недостатки материального тела, как, например, различные увечья, признаки старения и пр., не будут ему присущи." http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/alfeev2/Main.htm, Chapter XI.

My translation:  "The new, "glorified" body of a human being will be similar to the body of Christ after His resurrection, when He appeared to His disciples passing through locked doors (Jn. 20:19, 26). It will be non-material (or not made of matter), similar to light and without weight, even though it will preserve a certain "image" of the earthly material body; no shortcomings of the material body, such as various handicaps or signs of aging, etc. will be characteristic to it."

After his resurrection, Jesus specifically tells his disciples that he has "flesh and bones" (Lk. 24:39 ff). However, it's obvious from the Gospels and St. Paul that those glorified flesh and bones are not like what they were. They are able to walk through locked doors, can appear out of nowhere -- and yet that same body ate fish made of normal molecules! So, you do the math. It's a body and yet a totally different kind of body. Or, as St. John says in his Epistle, it's something we know exists, we just don't quite know how it works.

Regarding glorified bodies, we say they are truly flesh and bone. How that works on a molecular level, we don't know. Regarding the Eucharist, we say it is truly the body and blood of Christ. How that works on a molecular level, we don't know.

Here's the last stanza of a poem called "The Glorified Body" by Patricia Barone:

"Have you anything here to eat?"
Jesus came from death to ask for breakfast.
The disciples, mouths gaping,
followed his every bite--
broiled fish and raw honey.
"Feel me and see--a spirit doesn't have
flesh and bones like mine"
(What sort of body is this)
Not a ventriloquist's
dummy for the soul, oh no--
his body is his voice,
music every cell,
but his hands are as solid as
the bread with its honeycombed holes.
He is impossible, he is
a wave, a particle, his hands
feed the fire, turn the fish.
He hurtles through space
while he is still
here with us. We're slow.
We used to think
if we knew where we were
we'd never know for sure
how fast we're going.
Even the glorified
body is not what we think.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2010, 12:25:30 PM »

^^^Great poem, thank you!
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2010, 01:20:22 PM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol,"

Then that blood He shed on the Cross was a mere symbol too, and they are still lost in their sins.
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2010, 01:49:46 PM »

So we're eating bread that's actually living? and are we eating God's spiritual body or/and Christ's earthly and spiritual body?

We are eating the flesh of Christ's resurrected human body. But because it is flesh belonging to the Person of God the Logos, it is life-giving and divine.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. (John 6:63)

Sometimes Western heterodox read this passage as meaning the Eucharist is a "mere symbol,"

Then that blood He shed on the Cross was a mere symbol too, and they are still lost in their sins.

Pretty much, though they of course wouldn't want to admit that.
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2010, 06:36:51 PM »


Have you been baptised and chrismated an Orthodox Christian??
no.why do you ask?
Christ is Risen!
Ta Criost eirithe!

 
He asks because for some things it can make quite a difference. The 3rd century Saint Hippolytus of Rome says that there are things which cannot be understood adequately unless one is inside the Church, living the life of the Church.

Right! Through baptism and Chrismation our sins are washed away and we receive the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Holy Mysteries are only theoroetical to those who have not been empowered to understand them by the Holy Spirit.


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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2010, 08:07:16 PM »

St. Paul says somewhere that our flesh will be "spiritualized" that is will be powered by the spirit, but that doesn't mean the flesh will be immaterial.  It will be the same material as it was before, but with different properties and actions, or more accurately transcendent properties and actions.
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2010, 11:36:11 AM »

St. Paul says somewhere that our flesh will be "spiritualized" that is will be powered by the spirit, but that doesn't mean the flesh will be immaterial.  It will be the same material as it was before, but with different properties and actions, or more accurately transcendent properties and actions.

Can you imagine that an Orthodox bishop like His Eminence +HILARION (Alfeev) does not know it? Nevertheless, he writes, in a very straightforward fashion, that the body will NOT be made of matter. And he opposes the "earthy" body as material to the resurrected body that is not... I can't understand this... He just gives a huge "thumbs up" and free pass to all sorts of Manicheans and Monophysitists (and among those Orthodox Ukrainians whom I know, almost all seem to be them).
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2010, 11:45:27 AM »

St. Paul says somewhere that our flesh will be "spiritualized" that is will be powered by the spirit, but that doesn't mean the flesh will be immaterial.  It will be the same material as it was before, but with different properties and actions, or more accurately transcendent properties and actions.

Can you imagine that an Orthodox bishop like His Eminence +HILARION (Alfeev) does not know it? Nevertheless, he writes, in a very straightforward fashion, that the body will NOT be made of matter. And he opposes the "earthy" body as material to the resurrected body that is not... I can't understand this... He just gives a huge "thumbs up" and free pass to all sorts of Manicheans and Monophysitists (and among those Orthodox Ukrainians whom I know, almost all seem to be them).

Do you have a source for this?
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2010, 12:53:55 PM »

St. Paul says somewhere that our flesh will be "spiritualized" that is will be powered by the spirit, but that doesn't mean the flesh will be immaterial.  It will be the same material as it was before, but with different properties and actions, or more accurately transcendent properties and actions.

Can you imagine that an Orthodox bishop like His Eminence +HILARION (Alfeev) does not know it? Nevertheless, he writes, in a very straightforward fashion, that the body will NOT be made of matter. And he opposes the "earthy" body as material to the resurrected body that is not... I can't understand this... He just gives a huge "thumbs up" and free pass to all sorts of Manicheans and Monophysitists (and among those Orthodox Ukrainians whom I know, almost all seem to be them).
Do you have a source for this?

Yes, as I wrote above in this thread (reply #32):

"Here is a quote (in Russian) from Metr. +HILARION of Vienna and all Austria, from his book, published online, under the title, "The Mystery of Faith: an Introduction into the Orthodox Dogmatic Theology:"

"Новое, "прославленное" тело человека будет подобно телу Христа после Его Воскресения, когда Он являлся ученикам, проходя сквозь запертые двери (Ин. 20:19, 26). Оно будет нематериальным, световидным и легким, однако сохранит "образ" земного материального тела, причем никакие недостатки материального тела, как, например, различные увечья, признаки старения и пр., не будут ему присущи." http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/alfeev2/Main.htm, Chapter XI.

My translation:  "The new, "glorified" body of a human being will be similar to the body of Christ after His resurrection, when He appeared to His disciples passing through locked doors (Jn. 20:19, 26). It will be non-material (or not made of matter), similar to light and without weight, even though it will preserve a certain "image" of the earthly material body; no shortcomings of the material body, such as various handicaps or signs of aging, etc. will be characteristic to it."
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2010, 01:22:38 PM »


My translation:  "The new, "glorified" body of a human being will be similar to the body of Christ after His resurrection, when He appeared to His disciples passing through locked doors (Jn. 20:19, 26). It will be non-material (or not made of matter), similar to light and without weight, even though it will preserve a certain "image" of the earthly material body; no shortcomings of the material body, such as various handicaps or signs of aging, etc. will be characteristic to it."

And it will eat fish of course  Shocked
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2010, 01:56:57 PM »

The Russian word for "non-material"...could it mean anything else?

If the words cannot be misconstrued, maybe this should be reported to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Is this the Metropolitan:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/metropolitan-hilarion-shouted-down-as.html
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2010, 02:15:18 PM »

The Russian word for "non-material"...could it mean anything else?

If the words cannot be misconstrued, maybe this should be reported to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Is this the Metropolitan:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/metropolitan-hilarion-shouted-down-as.html

I am not sure what the difficulty is here.  Non-material may simply mean that the material of the glorified body is not precisely the same as currently recognizable, testable, dateable, puncturable flesh and bone...etc.

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