Topic: What Were Byzantine Catholic Bishops Thinking!?.

[Rufus]

My Orthodox friends, we are effectively going through our own Iconoclastic crisis, though thank heaven the diabolical rebellion is not now being led from Rome. 

I don't think that this is true. The post Vatican II liturgical revolution came directly from the Vatican.

The abuses you see are not from the Vatican. A Novus Ordo mass, properly celebrated, is very beautiful and reverent.

I have to agree, I have been to a couple Novus Ordo masses in Europe, including on Easter, and it was always very reverent and proper, although I have never seen a Tridentine mass for comparison.

[Jake C]

Lord have mercy!


That youtube video practically looks as if a pentecostal group decided to play dress-up as Catholics...Lord have mercy on me if that was judgmental.

And while I have never seen a Novus Ordo mass, I attended a Tridentine Mass several years ago, and it was beautiful!

[Papist]

My Orthodox friends, we are effectively going through our own Iconoclastic crisis, though thank heaven the diabolical rebellion is not now being led from Rome.  

I don't think that this is true. The post Vatican II liturgical revolution came directly from the Vatican.

The abuses you see are not from the Vatican. A Novus Ordo mass, properly celebrated, is very beautiful and reverent.

I have to agree, I have been to a couple Novus Ordo masses in Europe, including on Easter, and it was always very reverent and proper, although I have never seen a Tridentine mass for comparison.

If you ever get a chance, you should go to a Tridentine High Mass. It is absolutely heavenly. But, be sure to have an english translation with you.

[genesisone]

Women are more spiritual people then men, that's why they have a more religious nature to them (and even a connection to the supernatural as well).  This is why women tend to be drawn more to religion and attending church then men.  Maybe it has something to do with the ability to become mothers and create human life?

If you are saying that women are generally more sentimental and emotional, then I agree. By emotional, I mean its good sense - that women are more likely to display an appropriate emotion with the ability to verbalize about it. But sentimentality does not equal spirituality.

[Robb]

Women are more spiritual people then men, that's why they have a more religious nature to them (and even a connection to the supernatural as well).  This is why women tend to be drawn more to religion and attending church then men.  Maybe it has something to do with the ability to become mothers and create human life?

If you are saying that women are generally more sentimental and emotional, then I agree. By emotional, I mean its good sense - that women are more likely to display an appropriate emotion with the ability to verbalize about it. But sentimentality does not equal spirituality.

Well, women do tend to be more religious then men (as n going to Church on a regular basis, praying more, etc...).  This ties into emotionalism, I guess.  Women just seem to be more interested in religion, spiritual things then  do men (who seem mostly interested in more worldly concerns, making money, machismo). 

Also, Forgive me if I sound a bit raving about this topic.  I grew up with a nasty, verbally abusive stepfather who made my young life non too pleasant by always berating me about every little thing.  Years later, I became involved with a sect/cult which warped my mind and has caused me all sorts of emotional problems.  These experiences sort of tough me that we do not need to practice exterior penances and self denial so much because, for some of us anyway, these things seem to be built into our lives and re surface from time to time. I have a very hard time dealing with these particular issues (which have scarred both my mind and soul). Orthodoxy attracts me because it preaches that God is loving and merciful, not a cruel tyrant who wishes to pounce on us for every little infraction we make.  I cling to this concept of God for my sanity and sometimes get a little touchy when someone seems to put a muh harsher face on the Almighty then I try to think of him as.

[stanley123]

My Orthodox friends, we are effectively going through our own Iconoclastic crisis, though thank heaven the diabolical rebellion is not now being led from Rome.  

I don't think that this is true. The post Vatican II liturgical revolution came directly from the Vatican.

The abuses you see are not from the Vatican. A Novus Ordo mass, properly celebrated, is very beautiful and reverent.

Partly true, but mostly not true. The Vatican introduced all kinds of novelties with the New Mass and this can be seen by looking at some of the Masses celebrated by the Pope and other clergy in Africa and elsewhere. This flows from the liberalisations introduced in Rome at Vatican II and its aftermath. There would not be such a Mass as we see here today in Los Angeles if it had not been for the Vatican II Council. So Rome is completely responsible and it makes no sense to blame any one else  such as Martin Luther, Calvin, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Jews, the Buddhists,  the Hindhus, the atheists, or anyone else.

[lubeltri]

That's why I said "not now". Of course the liturgical reform turned out to be disastrously imprudent. I wish we could just go back in time, but such is not possible.

Happily the current papacy is leading the way toward the rehabilitation of both forms of the Roman rite.

[Papist]

My Orthodox friends, we are effectively going through our own Iconoclastic crisis, though thank heaven the diabolical rebellion is not now being led from Rome.  

I don't think that this is true. The post Vatican II liturgical revolution came directly from the Vatican.

The abuses you see are not from the Vatican. A Novus Ordo mass, properly celebrated, is very beautiful and reverent.

Partly true, but mostly not true. The Vatican introduced all kinds of novelties with the New Mass and this can be seen by looking at some of the Masses celebrated by the Pope and other clergy in Africa and elsewhere. This flows from the liberalisations introduced in Rome at Vatican II and its aftermath. There would not be such a Mass as we see here today in Los Angeles if it had not been for the Vatican II Council. So Rome is completely responsible and it makes no sense to blame any one else  such as Martin Luther, Calvin, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Jews, the Buddhists,  the Hindhus, the atheists, or anyone else.

This is just silly. The reforms are not directly responsible for what you see. The reforms called for continued reverence. These abuses do not. Your accusations are analogous to blaming God for our sins since he created us.

[stanley123]

My Orthodox friends, we are effectively going through our own Iconoclastic crisis, though thank heaven the diabolical rebellion is not now being led from Rome.  

I don't think that this is true. The post Vatican II liturgical revolution came directly from the Vatican.

The abuses you see are not from the Vatican. A Novus Ordo mass, properly celebrated, is very beautiful and reverent.

Partly true, but mostly not true. The Vatican introduced all kinds of novelties with the New Mass and this can be seen by looking at some of the Masses celebrated by the Pope and other clergy in Africa and elsewhere. This flows from the liberalisations introduced in Rome at Vatican II and its aftermath. There would not be such a Mass as we see here today in Los Angeles if it had not been for the Vatican II Council. So Rome is completely responsible and it makes no sense to blame any one else  such as Martin Luther, Calvin, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Jews, the Buddhists,  the Hindhus, the atheists, or anyone else.

This is just silly. The reforms are not directly responsible for what you see. The reforms called for continued reverence. These abuses do not. Your accusations are analogous to blaming God for our sins since he created us.

Like I said, I do not blame Martin Luther, Calvin, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Jews, the Buddhists, the Hindhus and I also do not blame God.  The reforms all came in as a result of Vatican II and let's not forget  that Cardinal Mahony operates with the full support and endorsement of the Vatican.

[Papist]

My Orthodox friends, we are effectively going through our own Iconoclastic crisis, though thank heaven the diabolical rebellion is not now being led from Rome.  

I don't think that this is true. The post Vatican II liturgical revolution came directly from the Vatican.

The abuses you see are not from the Vatican. A Novus Ordo mass, properly celebrated, is very beautiful and reverent.

Partly true, but mostly not true. The Vatican introduced all kinds of novelties with the New Mass and this can be seen by looking at some of the Masses celebrated by the Pope and other clergy in Africa and elsewhere. This flows from the liberalisations introduced in Rome at Vatican II and its aftermath. There would not be such a Mass as we see here today in Los Angeles if it had not been for the Vatican II Council. So Rome is completely responsible and it makes no sense to blame any one else  such as Martin Luther, Calvin, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Jews, the Buddhists,  the Hindhus, the atheists, or anyone else.

This is just silly. The reforms are not directly responsible for what you see. The reforms called for continued reverence. These abuses do not. Your accusations are analogous to blaming God for our sins since he created us.

Like I said, I do not blame Martin Luther, Calvin, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Jews, the Buddhists, the Hindhus and I also do not blame God.  The reforms all came in as a result of Vatican II and let's not forget  that Cardinal Mahony operates with the full support and endorsement of the Vatican.

The reforms came as a result of Vatican II. The abuses came as a result of people misusing their free will.

[stanley123]

The reforms came as a result of Vatican II. The abuses came as a result of people misusing their free will.

I don't think that Cardinal Mahony would agree that the Masses he has been celebrating for all of these many years or that the Masses at his LA Congresses are abuses. And as far as I know, Cardinal Mahony operates with the full support of Rome. After all, who appointed and supports Cardinal Mahony?

[Papist]

The reforms came as a result of Vatican II. The abuses came as a result of people misusing their free will.

I don't think that Cardinal Mahony would agree that the Masses he has been celebrating for all of these many years or that the Masses at his LA Congresses are abuses. And as far as I know, Cardinal Mahony operates with the full support of Rome. After all, who appointed and supports Cardinal Mahony?

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

[stanley123]

The reforms came as a result of Vatican II. The abuses came as a result of people misusing their free will.

I don't think that Cardinal Mahony would agree that the Masses he has been celebrating for all of these many years or that the Masses at his LA Congresses are abuses. And as far as I know, Cardinal Mahony operates with the full support of Rome. After all, who appointed and supports Cardinal Mahony?

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

I think that Rome supports Cardinal Mahony and in general supports the post-Vatican II liturgical renewal. 

[wynd]

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

It IS kind of hard to believe Rome's ultramontanist claims that the Church needs a strong centralized head with supreme authority when she refuses to use that supreme authority to prevent things like this. What's the point of claiming such authority if such incidents just get ignored?

[Papist]

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

It IS kind of hard to believe Rome's ultramontanist claims that the Church needs a strong centralized head with supreme authority when she refuses to use that supreme authority to prevent things like this. What's the point of claiming such authority if such incidents just get ignored?

What's the point in you criticizing the Catholic Church for having a strong central authority if you think it should be used?

[Iconodule]

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

It IS kind of hard to believe Rome's ultramontanist claims that the Church needs a strong centralized head with supreme authority when she refuses to use that supreme authority to prevent things like this. What's the point of claiming such authority if such incidents just get ignored?

What's the point in you criticizing the Catholic Church for having a strong central authority if you think it should be used?

You're missing the point, which is that the claims that Papal supremacy ensures unity, order, and doctrinal coherence in the church are false.

[Rufus]

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

It IS kind of hard to believe Rome's ultramontanist claims that the Church needs a strong centralized head with supreme authority when she refuses to use that supreme authority to prevent things like this. What's the point of claiming such authority if such incidents just get ignored?

What's the point in you criticizing the Catholic Church for having a strong central authority if you think it should be used?

I would like to point out that in the Orthodox Church, which does *not* have centralized hierarchy, an abuse such as this one:
   a) would never happen in the first place; and
   b) would result in swift action by the hierarchy, and whoever was responsible for the act would certainly be deposed.

The Vatican could clean this mess up in a heartbeat. Why don't they?

[wynd]

You're missing the point, which is that the claims that Papal supremacy ensures unity, order, and doctrinal coherence in the church are false.

I would like to point out that in the Orthodox Church, which does *not* have centralized hierarchy, an abuse such as this one:
   a) would never happen in the first place; and
   b) would result in swift action by the hierarchy, and whoever was responsible for the act would certainly be deposed.

The Vatican could clean this mess up in a heartbeat. Why don't they?

I've had internet troubles all day so I haven't had a chance to reply, but I see I have no need to. These posters hit the nail on the head.

[Papist]

So you want to Pope to go ultramontanist on him? Is that what you are asking for?

It IS kind of hard to believe Rome's ultramontanist claims that the Church needs a strong centralized head with supreme authority when she refuses to use that supreme authority to prevent things like this. What's the point of claiming such authority if such incidents just get ignored?

What's the point in you criticizing the Catholic Church for having a strong central authority if you think it should be used?

I would like to point out that in the Orthodox Church, which does *not* have centralized hierarchy, an abuse such as this one:
   a) would never happen in the first place; and
   b) would result in swift action by the hierarchy, and whoever was responsible for the act would certainly be deposed.

The Vatican could clean this mess up in a heartbeat. Why don't they?

I think its because the Pope doesn't believe in treating the Bishops as mere figure-heads.

[lubeltri]

Your synods couldn't prevent the Icons from getting smashed or Iconodules from getting imprisoned, killed or exiled. Remember that?

[Iconodule]

Your synods couldn't prevent the Icons from getting smashed or Iconodules from getting imprisoned, killed or exiled. Remember that?

Did I miss something? Is there an imperial army enforcing this liturgical abuse?

[lubeltri]

Big news out of LA today:

Pope Benedict XVI has named Archbishop Jose H. Gomez of San Antonio, Texas, as Coadjutor Archbishop of Los Angeles. The appointment was announced today, April 6, in Washington, D.C., by Archbishop Pietro Sambi, apostolic nuncio to the United States.

As Coadjutor, Archbishop Gomez, 58, will automatically become head of the three-county Archdiocese of Los Angeles upon Cardinal Roger Mahony’s retirement at age 75 on February, 27, 2011. A Mass of Reception for Archbishop Gomez is scheduled for May 26.

Cardinal Roger Mahony will introduce Archbishop Gomez today, Tuesday, April 6 at a 10 a.m. press conference inside the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.

http://www.archdiocese.la/news/story.php?newsid=1169

-

So Cardinal Mahony's 25-year reign in Los Angeles ends next February.

The Archdiocese of Los Angeles includes more than 5 million faithful.

And the Pope's replacement? A Mexican-American Archbishop of San Antonio, Texas, and a numerary of Opus Dei. By all accounts he is orthodox. I know from my own experience with Opus Dei that their priests celebrate the Sacred Mysteries with reverence and dignity.



Deo Gratias.

[Iconodule]

I'm trying to imagine someone celebrating a "Mariachi Choir Mass" with reverence and dignity...

http://www.sfcathedral.org/aboutus_massshedule.html

Looks like the Catholic traditionalists are grasping at straws on this one.

[Papist]

Big news out of LA today:

Pope Benedict XVI has named Archbishop Jose H. Gomez of San Antonio, Texas, as Coadjutor Archbishop of Los Angeles. The appointment was announced today, April 6, in Washington, D.C., by Archbishop Pietro Sambi, apostolic nuncio to the United States.

As Coadjutor, Archbishop Gomez, 58, will automatically become head of the three-county Archdiocese of Los Angeles upon Cardinal Roger Mahony’s retirement at age 75 on February, 27, 2011. A Mass of Reception for Archbishop Gomez is scheduled for May 26.

Cardinal Roger Mahony will introduce Archbishop Gomez today, Tuesday, April 6 at a 10 a.m. press conference inside the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.

http://www.archdiocese.la/news/story.php?newsid=1169

-

So Cardinal Mahony's 25-year reign in Los Angeles ends next February.

The Archdiocese of Los Angeles includes more than 5 million faithful.

And the Pope's replacement? A Mexican-American Archbishop of San Antonio, Texas, and a numerary of Opus Dei. By all accounts he is orthodox. I know from my own experience with Opus Dei that their priests celebrate the Sacred Mysteries with reverence and dignity.



Deo Gratias.

Deo Gratias!

[lubeltri]

I'm trying to imagine someone celebrating a "Mariachi Choir Mass" with reverence and dignity...

http://www.sfcathedral.org/aboutus_massshedule.html

Looks like the Catholic traditionalists are grasping at straws on this one.

Hey, I never said he was a traditionalist. But he IS orthodox, and he is tolerant of diverse liturgical expressions, especially the traditional Roman (and Anglican Use) liturgy. Cardinal Mahony welcomes anything as long as it isn't traditional (which he actively impedes).

San Antonio was in a pretty bad state when Archbishop Gomez arrived five years ago---it takes time to rebuild after years of damage. The Saturday evening "Mariachi Mass" is probably a holdover from before his arrival---though at least it doesn't look quite as terrible as I feared:



LOL, I'll take traditional Mariachi music over Marty Haugen at Mass---if I had no other choice.

I'll place bets that His Excellency doesn't celebrate that Mariachi Mass. He has been wonderful for vocations in that archdiocese---the number of seminarians has doubled since he was installed archbishop.

Well, either way, I'm happy to see an Opus Dei archbishop in Los Angeles---things will gradually change out there with new leadership at the helm.

[John Larocque]

It's being interpreted on NBC news as a signal that the future of Catholicism in the US is Hispanic. Out with the liberal English-speakers and in with the more traditional-minded Spanish-speaking kind is one way to look at it. My own view is that "American" English-speaking Catholicism is a lost cause and will eventually be reduced to an "orthodox" rump which can witness to the faith. Through attrition alone, one can imagine the number of Novus Ordo parishes to Anglican-use or Latin parishes starting to decrease, with the latter producing more vocations.

There's a picture of him distributing the Eucharist at an Anglican-use parish - I visited the parish link and the priest indicated that they were unhappy with the decision to send him to Los Angeles.. . because he didn't want him to leave Texas!

[Hamartolos]

I really have to comment on that video.  Seeing it really made me realize something about being Orthodox...  This type of 'worship' is now foreign to me!  Hoorayy!

[Papist]

I really have to comment on that video.  Seeing it really made me realize something about being Orthodox...  This type of 'worship' is now foreign to me!  Hoorayy!

Its foreign to me too buddy.

[Hamartolos]

I really have to comment on that video.  Seeing it really made me realize something about being Orthodox...  This type of 'worship' is now foreign to me!  Hoorayy!

Its foreign to me too buddy.

I'm glad you don't have to put up with that when you attend mass.  Hopefully when the third edition of the Roman Missal is implemented, liturgical abuses in Catholicism will stop.

[Papist]

I really have to comment on that video.  Seeing it really made me realize something about being Orthodox...  This type of 'worship' is now foreign to me!  Hoorayy!

Its foreign to me too buddy.

I'm glad you don't have to put up with that when you attend mass.  Hopefully when the third edition of the Roman Missal is implemented, liturgical abuses in Catholicism will stop.

Agreed. Keep us in your prayers.

[Alveus Lacuna]

This whole situation is truly unfortunate. I wonder how different my impressions might have been of this communion if I had grown up with something besides a "campfire Mass" (acoustic guitars playing hippie music, whitewashed walls, et cetera). I'm not even wondering about the Traditional Latin Mass, although growing up with that would have been incredible, but even just a very dignified and reverent celebration of the Novus Ordo would have done. I never experienced anything like that growing up. It's funny, because another friend of mine who grew up in a southern diocese in Alabama was thoroughly catechized and knew all of the traditional practices that I never learned, like kneeling before entering the row of pews, and other general rules of decorum. He even used to ask Francis of Assisi to pray for him. I was never encouraged to have an active relationship with the saints, aside from learning the "Hail Mary."

[Robb]

It's being interpreted on NBC news as a signal that the future of Catholicism in the US is Hispanic. Out with the liberal English-speakers and in with the more traditional-minded Spanish-speaking kind is one way to look at it. My own view is that "American" English-speaking Catholicism is a lost cause and will eventually be reduced to an "orthodox" rump which can witness to the faith. Through attrition alone, one can imagine the number of Novus Ordo parishes to Anglican-use or Latin parishes starting to decrease, with the latter producing more vocations.

There's a picture of him distributing the Eucharist at an Anglican-use parish - I visited the parish link and the priest indicated that they were unhappy with the decision to send him to Los Angeles.. . because he didn't want him to leave Texas!

So is the Vatican going to drop any concern whatsoever for all the "gringo" Catholics in the U.S. who will just be written off as a lost cause and replaced with Hispanics like something out of an assembly line?

My poor grandparents came off a boat and paid through their teeth to support their parish churches, only to have them closed down or handed over to other ethnic groups.  Now their poor scion will be "freezed out" of the faith which their forefathers so lovingly supported for centuries in Europe because some theological nuts in the 60's started to make changes which caused a complete downward spiral for the RCC which is now counting on mass transplantation of populations in order to survivie in this country?

Sad. 

[John Larocque]

Robb, that's just my point of view. But it's hard not to view the concept of "American Catholic" as an experiment which has failed. The fundamental assumptions of this group is that "we're just as American as other people in this country" which in 21st century terms means their faith is just cultural and they're just as secular and materialist and "modernist" as their neighbours. There's nothing for their children to hold on to, so their parishes are caught in a death spiral.

[Robb]

I understand that the RCC in America (at least among whites) is slowly dying.  However, it is a shame that the Catholic hierarchy has just decided to abandon the souls of millions of people just because they don't care to try and either fix things or just get them back into their churches.  Instead they choose to depend upon millions of Hispanic immigrants (many of them illegally residing here) to fill their parish pews and pay their bills.  This whole mentality that has been adopted by the RCC in the U.S. relating to Hispanic immigrants seems very sinister to me.  It's almost as if they viewed their faithful as mere drones who, when they became too uppity could easily be replaced by foreign flocks (almost as if they were using Hispanics as a type of scabs against  these perceived parish "strikers"). 

I'm glad that the OC hierarchy, whatever one could say about them still treat their faithful with far more respect and love then do the RCC bishops here in America.

[Schultz]

I understand that the RCC in America (at least among whites) is slowly dying.  However, it is a shame that the Catholic hierarchy has just decided to abandon the souls of millions of people just because they don't care to try and either fix things or just get them back into their churches.  Instead they choose to depend upon millions of Hispanic immigrants (many of them illegally residing here) to fill their parish pews and pay their bills.  This whole mentality that has been adopted by the RCC in the U.S. relating to Hispanic immigrants seems very sinister to me.  It's almost as if they viewed their faithful as mere drones who, when they became too uppity could easily be replaced by foreign flocks (almost as if they were using Hispanics as a type of scabs against  these perceived parish "strikers").  

I'm glad that the OC hierarchy, whatever one could say about them still treat their faithful with far more respect and love then do the RCC bishops here in America.

http://catholicism.org/baltimore-archdiocese-confirms-1090-converts-during-easter-vigil.html

Baltimore certainly isn't "depending on foreigners," as you put it.  Even in the height of the recent scandal, they're calling back the lapsed and doing some serious evangelization here in Baltimore.

[Papist]

I understand that the RCC in America (at least among whites) is slowly dying.  However, it is a shame that the Catholic hierarchy has just decided to abandon the souls of millions of people just because they don't care to try and either fix things or just get them back into their churches.  Instead they choose to depend upon millions of Hispanic immigrants (many of them illegally residing here) to fill their parish pews and pay their bills.  This whole mentality that has been adopted by the RCC in the U.S. relating to Hispanic immigrants seems very sinister to me.  It's almost as if they viewed their faithful as mere drones who, when they became too uppity could easily be replaced by foreign flocks (almost as if they were using Hispanics as a type of scabs against  these perceived parish "strikers"). 

I'm glad that the OC hierarchy, whatever one could say about them still treat their faithful with far more respect and love then do the RCC bishops here in America.

Where do you get this stuff?

[Shlomlokh]

I understand that the RCC in America (at least among whites) is slowly dying.  However, it is a shame that the Catholic hierarchy has just decided to abandon the souls of millions of people just because they don't care to try and either fix things or just get them back into their churches.  Instead they choose to depend upon millions of Hispanic immigrants (many of them illegally residing here) to fill their parish pews and pay their bills.  This whole mentality that has been adopted by the RCC in the U.S. relating to Hispanic immigrants seems very sinister to me.  It's almost as if they viewed their faithful as mere drones who, when they became too uppity could easily be replaced by foreign flocks (almost as if they were using Hispanics as a type of scabs against  these perceived parish "strikers"). 

I'm glad that the OC hierarchy, whatever one could say about them still treat their faithful with far more respect and love then do the RCC bishops here in America.

Where do you get this stuff?

I must agree. Perhaps he misunderstands?