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Author Topic: Messianic Judaism and the Orthodox Church's Teaching on the Jews  (Read 7526 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nazarene
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David ben Yessai


« on: March 23, 2010, 04:36:45 PM »

I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Judaizing Christianity is a heresy. However, the occasional secular oriented brisket dinner at Passover (if your family is Jewish) is probably okay with the blessing of your Priest. But serious observance of any other religion except Christianity is never allowed.

There's nothing "Judaisic" about the 7 Levitical Feasts, they were instated by God Himself so they are actually His Feasts, is there any proof for God instating any other feasts celebrated on this planet?

Sorry if it offends but for Orthodox Christians, St John's homily is not infamous.  Whatever is written about the Jews should in my humble opinion be seasoned with what is happening in our times.  I am not equating Judaism with Zionism.

Well that's a start. As for St. John's Chrysostom's Homilies Against the Jews not being infamous amongst Orthodox Christians, this is not true for all Orthodox Christians. There are Orthodox Christians who find those Homilies offensive, including ones on this board, I've read many posts on this matter here. This is not to say that I have no respect for this man, I actually enjoy reading most of his other writings but I am going to call a spade a spade and I will not make an exception for anyone whether it's the Great Prophet Moses or my next door neighbour. I don't know whether The Great Golden Mouth was actually racist, or whether he just let his zeal spiral out of control - it can happen to even the most dedicated saints. I'm not going to judge this man on only one of his works but that does not make what he said about the Jews in these homilies ok, nothing does. I'm in agreement with Murawski who said:

Quote
One will not find the requirement to love one's neighbour  in these speeches, nor will such speeches have been able to fill the Jews with any sympathy for Christianity.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html


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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 04:44:14 PM »

Why celebrate Jewish festivals and observe Jewish practices when Christ has fulfilled and completed the Law? Why have soymilk, when there's cream to be had?  laugh
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2010, 05:00:32 PM »

I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Judaizing Christianity is a heresy. However, the occasional secular oriented brisket dinner at Passover (if your family is Jewish) is probably okay with the blessing of your Priest. But serious observance of any other religion except Christianity is never allowed.

There's nothing "Judaisic" about the 7 Levitical Feasts, they were instated by God Himself so they are actually His Feasts, is there any proof for God instating any other feasts celebrated on this planet?
We've actually Christianized two of the most important Jewish festivals by recognizing their fulfillment in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.  The names we give these feasts, Pascha and Pentecost, even hearken to their original Jewish names.
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2010, 05:12:52 PM »

orthodox christians like the jews. its the protestants that dont.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

martin luther hated the jews with a vengeance.

Yes I know about Luther's rantings as well, but I'm glad you brought it up as it helps to keep things objective. For the record I do not judge Orthodoxy or Protestantism based on some writing by only one man. Neither do I judge one man on only one of his writings. That said I'm not going to say that something is right when I know it is wrong, and neither Luther nor Chrysotom get a free pass, neither do I, you or anyone else. If it's any constellation overall I prefer Mr. Golden Mouth to Mr. Luther.

Why celebrate Jewish festivals and observe Jewish practices when Christ has fulfilled and completed the Law? Why have soymilk, when there's cream to be had?  laugh

Well cream is very fattening for one thing, LOL. Seriously I consider following the Dietry Laws beneficial not but not an absolute requirement, there is no statement in the Torah that requests capital punishment for breaking one of the Dietry Laws.

And WRT Messiah completing and fulfilling all the Torah, are you sure about that? If He did then what's the point of Him returning? If He did make the Torah null and void then on what basis will He judge the living and the dead at His Second Coming? He did not fulfill all the Torah yet that's why He said this:

Matthew 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to change the law or the prophets. I have not come to change, but to fulfill [them]. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one stroke will pass from the law until everything happens.

Heaven and earth are yet to pass and things like the Resurrection are yet to happen.

This is why I don't understand why the Orthodox Church has dropped the Feasts of YHWH, which the Apostles joyfully celebrated because when they experienced God in the flesh they finally understood the meanings behind them. Here St. John Chrysostom insults these Feasts which were instated by God Himself, and commanded to be celebrated by God Himself:

Quote
(5) What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now. My homilies against the Anomians can be put off to another time, and the postponement would cause no harm. But now that the Jewish festivals are close by and at the very door, if I should fail to cure those who are sick with the Judaizing disease. I am afraid that, because of their ill-suited association and deep ignorance, some Christians may partake in the Jews' transgressions; once they have done so, I fear my homilies on these transgressions will be in vain. For if they hear no word from me today, they will then join the Jews in their fasts; once they have committed this sin it will be useless for me to apply the remedy.

Seriously I don't get how St. John cannot see the spiritual significance of Rosh HaShanna, Yom Kippur and Sukkot which are all about Messiah's Second Coming. Why does the Orthodox Church only celebrate half of Messiah's mission, it was not this way in the 1st century.
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 05:15:11 PM »

I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Judaizing Christianity is a heresy. However, the occasional secular oriented brisket dinner at Passover (if your family is Jewish) is probably okay with the blessing of your Priest. But serious observance of any other religion except Christianity is never allowed.

There's nothing "Judaisic" about the 7 Levitical Feasts, they were instated by God Himself so they are actually His Feasts, is there any proof for God instating any other feasts celebrated on this planet?
We've actually Christianized two of the most important Jewish festivals by recognizing their fulfillment in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.  The names we give these feasts, Pascha and Pentecost, even hearken to their original Jewish names.

I know and I'm glad you kept them, but what about the other 5? How could the Fathers not know that all 7 of these Feasts are about Messiah mission to mankind - both Comings?

« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 05:15:59 PM by Nazarene » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 05:34:59 PM »

Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

I would love to see St. Paul's reaction to that.
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 05:41:35 PM »

I know and I'm glad you kept them, but what about the other 5? How could the Fathers not know that all 7 of these Feasts are about Messiah mission to mankind - both Comings?
girl, thats WAY too many sabbaths. i'm having a hard enough time keeping up with lent.  60% of the entire year we already have a restricted diet.

no wonder most orthodox are so emo.
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 05:47:26 PM »

Yes it's a mean Canon as it promotes prejudice and kills opportunities for witness. But sometimes we make poor decisions in anger or in the heat of the moment, without taking the consequences or future implications into consideration. The Fathers for the most part tried the best they could but they made mistakes too, while their intentions were good they didn't always do things in the way that would be pleasing to God or demonstrate the love of Yeshua.
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 05:54:18 PM »

I know and I'm glad you kept them, but what about the other 5? How could the Fathers not know that all 7 of these Feasts are about Messiah mission to mankind - both Comings?
girl, thats WAY too many sabbaths. i'm having a hard enough time keeping up with lent.  60% of the entire year we already have a restricted diet.

no wonder most orthodox are so emo.

Actually YHWH only commands us to fast on one day of the entire year - Yom Kippur (but this means eating absolutely nothing). The fasting twice a week during the 1st century was introduced by the Pharisees, it is not commanded in the Torah. The Lenton fast you guys do is good, and I believe that habitual fasting throughout the year is very good and has great benefits both physically and spiritually, but it's just not specifically commanded.
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 06:30:34 PM »

Quote
Heaven and earth are yet to pass and things like the Resurrection are yet to happen.

Nazarene, could you please elaborate on the bolded section?
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2010, 06:50:39 PM »

Quote
Heaven and earth are yet to pass and things like the Resurrection are yet to happen.

Nazarene, could you please elaborate on the bolded section?


Oh dear, I now see why you're alarmed. By resurrection I mean the resurrection of the dead at the 2nd Coming, not Messiah's resurrection. Sorry for being so vague.
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2010, 07:30:08 PM »

Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

I would love to see St. Paul's reaction to that.

He would probably concur, under the circumstances.

During the 300 years from the birth of Christianity until 313 AD, 10 waves of persecution against Christians rolled across the Roman Empire.  We were labelled by law as a "religio illicita" and had no human rights.  We are all familiar with the many films which have shown the cruel and sadistic deaths inflicted on Christians in Roman arenas and Roman prisons and Nero's living torches.

Unfortunately, the Jews took a willing hand in the persecution of Christians.  They came to hate us a pernicious Jewish sect and they reported Christians to the Roman authorities and brought about their death.

In this way the Jews participated in the first and greatest Holocaust of our era ~ a Holocaust against Christians.

Seeing prohibitions against attending synagogues such as the Canon above is not to be wondered at.
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2010, 07:36:54 PM »

Yes it's a mean Canon as it promotes prejudice and kills opportunities for witness. But sometimes we make poor decisions in anger or in the heat of the moment, without taking the consequences or future implications into consideration. The Fathers for the most part tried the best they could but they made mistakes too, while their intentions were good they didn't always do things in the way that would be pleasing to God or demonstrate the love of Yeshua.

Nazarene, have you so soon forgotten the discussion on the Jewish Council of Jamnia in 90 AD and the Jewish decision to throw all Christian Jews out of the synagogues.  They managed this by adding a prayer cursing Christians to the evening service in the synagogues.

 
 
Jewish Christians went on worshipping in the synagogues until
the Jewish Council of Jamnia in the year 90.  The Council of Jamnia added a
prayer cursing Christians to the Friday evening prayers and this made it
impossible for Christians to continue praying in the synagogues.
 It brought
about the final separation of the Jewish Christian community and the
synagogue.
 
Here is something I wrote elsewhere...
 

The Jewish anti-Christian attitude started to come to the fore very early
after the death of Christ.
 
The separation of Jews and Christians took place in stages. Jewish
Christians throughout the Empire stopped attending synagogues as Jews began
to denounce them to the Roman authorities for belonging to a forbidden sect.
The separation was fully complete in 90 AD, by the choice of the Jews.
 
The Jewish Council of Jamnia held in 90 AD was an explicitly anti-Christian
council which (among other things) added a benediction-cursing prayer to the
worship service for the express purpose of excluding Christians from
participating in Jewish Sabbath worship.
 
Here is a quote from the book "John and Jamnia: How the Break Occurred
between Jews and Christians", by Fredric Manns (1988), pages 25-26.:
 
"Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah continued to frequent the
synagogue. By doing this, they followed the example of the Apostles who went
to the temple every day for prayer. James [for example] ... spent all day
praying on his knees in the temple, according to Eusebius of Caesarea. After
the destruction of the Temple, the Jews decided to break with those who
recognized Jesus as the Messiah.
 
Under Rabbi Gamaliel they inserted the 'benediction-curse of the Minim' into
the prayer called Shemone Esre.
 
The text of this benediction, as it appears in the Geniza of Cairo is as
follows:
 
'May apostates have no hope and the kingdom of
impertinence be uprooted in our day. May the Nozrim
and Minim disappear in the twinkling of an eye. May
they be removed from the book of the living and not
be inscribed among the just. Blessed art thou, O Lord,
who cast down the proud.'

 

Three categories of people are affected by this 'benediction-curse'.
 
1. First of all, Jews who collaborate with the Romans,
 
2. the Roman empire itself, and finally,
 
3. Jews who follow Jesus.
 
The latter are designated under the titles of Nozrim and Minim ... (Nozrim
means "followers of the Nazarene and is still used for Christians in Israel,
for example, modern Israeli legislation dealing with Christians terms us as
Nozrim.)
 
The establishment of this 'benediction' was therefore the equivalent of
driving the Minim and Nozrim [Christians] from the synagogue."
 
When the Jews changed their liturgy so that Christians would be calling down
curses upon themselves if they participated in it, the Jews who believed in
Jesus found themselves completely excluded from temple worship.
 
 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:37:39 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2010, 10:44:58 PM »


 As for St. John's Chrysostom's Homilies Against the Jews not being infamous amongst Orthodox Christians, this is not true for all Orthodox Christians. There are Orthodox Christians who find those Homilies offensive, including ones on this board,

I believe that the future Saint wrote these deplorable and hatefilled pieces
of psogogical rhetoric calling for the slaughter of the Jews while still a
young man and not ordained and very angry about the role played by the Jews
in the persecution of Christians throughout the Roman Empire.  In other
words the homilies against the Jews do not represent the mature theologian
and saintly bishop which Chrysostom later became.


Psogos - how's that for an obscure word!  A device of rhetorical and exaggerated invective,
and definitely not PC these days.
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2010, 06:23:53 AM »

I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Judaizing Christianity is a heresy. However, the occasional secular oriented brisket dinner at Passover (if your family is Jewish) is probably okay with the blessing of your Priest. But serious observance of any other religion except Christianity is never allowed.

There's nothing "Judaisic" about the 7 Levitical Feasts, they were instated by God Himself so they are actually His Feasts, is there any proof for God instating any other feasts celebrated on this planet?
We've actually Christianized two of the most important Jewish festivals by recognizing their fulfillment in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.  The names we give these feasts, Pascha and Pentecost, even hearken to their original Jewish names.

I know and I'm glad you kept them, but what about the other 5? How could the Fathers not know that all 7 of these Feasts are about Messiah mission to mankind - both Comings?



Which jewish festivals you think that are not fullfilled in Christ and the Church?
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2010, 06:45:45 AM »

What do you think of the Two Testaments and Covenants?
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2010, 10:46:47 AM »

What do you think of the Two Testaments and Covenants?

Are you speaking of Dispensationalism? (As George says) Fie upon the heresy! The Orthodox Church is the New Israel, we have replaced the old.
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2010, 11:18:21 AM »

I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Judaizing Christianity is a heresy. However, the occasional secular oriented brisket dinner at Passover (if your family is Jewish) is probably okay with the blessing of your Priest. But serious observance of any other religion except Christianity is never allowed.

There's nothing "Judaisic" about the 7 Levitical Feasts, they were instated by God Himself so they are actually His Feasts, is there any proof for God instating any other feasts celebrated on this planet?
We've actually Christianized two of the most important Jewish festivals by recognizing their fulfillment in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.  The names we give these feasts, Pascha and Pentecost, even hearken to their original Jewish names.

I know and I'm glad you kept them, but what about the other 5? How could the Fathers not know that all 7 of these Feasts are about Messiah mission to mankind - both Comings?

I know it's pretty long but Saint Justin the Martyr talks about it in passing in his conversation with trypho.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html (ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO)


In the pre-Nicene era, you will find that what Saint Paul said in his epistles......was pretty much the view advocated by christians. And it's not just St. Justin the philosopher. You will find it among many others in the ante-nicene era as well.









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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2010, 11:25:34 AM »



During the 300 years from the birth of Christianity until 313 AD, 10 waves of persecution against Christians rolled across the Roman Empire.  We were labelled by law as a "religio illicita" and had no human rights.  We are all familiar with the many films which have shown the cruel and sadistic deaths inflicted on Christians in Roman arenas and Roman prisons and Nero's living torches.

I believe it's now known that the persecution of Christians has been greatly exaggerated over the centuries. Not that Christians weren't persecuted, but most of these persecutions were quite localized (such was what Nero did) and while often they were brutal and violent, they were often short lived. Most of the time persecution was aimed  at Church leaders and not laity.

I think what happened was that Diocletian's persecution was the last, and most brutal and rand has just "stuck" itself in the collective memory of Christianity and the Church ever sense.  We then assume (or are taught) that all the persecution were just like that, but I think history has shown that that's not really true.

Quote
Unfortunately, the Jews took a willing hand in the persecution of Christians.  They came to hate us a pernicious Jewish sect and they reported Christians to the Roman authorities and brought about their death.

In this way the Jews participated in the first and greatest Holocaust of our era ~ a Holocaust against Christians.

I'm sorry but this last statement especially I find to be quite absurd.

 I've heard this before from many Orthodox for many years about how horrible "the Jews" were to "us Christians" in the 3rd century, as if this is supposed to make better sense out of St. John's writings in the late 4th century...(as if he himself had been brutalized in some religious gang fight in Alexandria in the 3rd century, which would "validate" his ideas of Jews and Judaism). It's a childish mindset of, well after all, they did it to us FIRST!)

To say "the Jews" were conspiring with the Roman authorities is also absurd. I've heard this for many years and I also never get much historical records, footnotes, or evidence outside of a report here or there about some religious "mob" fight between Jews and Christians. As horrible as this is, and it is horrible, I don't deny that. And anyone who claims to be a follower of God, and then "fights to the death" with a gang mentality is hardly being faithful to either Judaism or Christianity....but in the end these were isolated cases, which I can hardly classify as "persecution."

Were Christians expelled from the Synagogues? Of course. But is that really the same thing as persecution? I'll have more to say on that in reply to your next post....



« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 11:25:46 AM by NorthernPines » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 11:31:36 AM »

Books I still have to get that may talk about the issue:

http://books.google.com/books?id=9zCh9SBb6Y8C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Tosefta+Yadayim&source=bl&ots=uatn1IA_ru&sig=wcWbs7rJ-c__cA1P2XfbuBM6zcA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1 (Jews and Christians the parting of ways 70 A.D. to 135 A.D.)



and

http://books.google.com/books?id=oZ1oNcGRNaAC&dq=Tosefta&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result  (The Tosefta)

I wanted this book because I was trying to trace a quote from another book......that had this in it:

Quote:
Quote
""The first revolt(of 70 A.D.) was a national uprising; this
second Revolt(around 135 A.D. or maybe 150 A.D.) would be a messianic movement.
By means of Akiba's work, a large number of jews joined in the rebellion. Even
Samaritans and pagans joined Bar Cochba in his revolt. However, there was one
Jewish sect which refused to join: that obstinate tribe known as christians. The
Christians, a majority of whom were still ethnically jewish, were pressed to
join in this life and death struggle with Rome, but they refused. To accept bar
Cochba as Messiah, as Akiba insisted, would have been nothing short of Apostasy;
and because of their refusal to do so, Christians were treated by the Jews as
heretics and traitors. It is this same Rabbi Akiba who is the very first writer
to explicity and forthrightly reject the inspiration of both the christian New
Testament and the books of the Deuterocanon. Akiba's declaration is found in
Tosefta Yahayim 2:13 which reads;

"The Gospel and heretical books do not
defile the hands. The books of Ben Sira and all other books written from then
on, do not defile the hands."

Two outstanding points must be drawn from
this impious declaration: first, it must have been common knowledge even at this
early date that the christians accepted the Deutercanon and used it as Scripture
(along with the Gospels), otherwise, there would have been no need to rule
against them; secondly that at least some jews must also have shared that
acceptance, otherwise Akiba's decree would have been superfluous."
Here we
have a hostile witness confirming through his actions that the earliest
christians accepted both the Gospels and the Deuterocanon as inspired and sacred
Scripture. It was in this watershed event- the naming of the false Messiah Bar
Cochba and the Anathematizing of those who rejected him- which occasioned the
very first unquestionable rejection of the Deuteros by a single, widely
recognized Jewish authority. It was under Akiba's tenure that a single textual
tradition of the Old Testament was first adopted; before this time (as we have
shown) a variety of different texts were in use among the jews. It was here,
sometime in the middle of the second Christian century, that Judaism first
adopted an official normative text(i.e. the Masoretic Text or the MT).


pages 68-70 from the book "Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger: the untold Story of the lost books of the Protestant Bible" by Gary G. Michuta"


And so, I had to find the original source for the quote myself.







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« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 11:41:34 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 11:46:19 AM »


Nazarene, have you so soon forgotten the discussion on the Jewish Council of Jamnia in 90 AD and the Jewish decision to throw all Christian Jews out of the synagogues.

Of COURSE they threw all the Christians out of the Synagogues. They thought the Christians were HERETICS. It's no different than when the Church threw all the Ebionites out. Or all the Gnostics. Or all the Arians, and for good measure the Church also cursed all of those heretics too.


Quote
They managed this by adding a prayer cursing Christians to the evening service in the synagogues.

 
Jewish Christians went on worshipping in the synagogues until
the Jewish Council of Jamnia in the year 90.  The Council of Jamnia added a
prayer cursing Christians to the Friday evening prayers and this made it
impossible for Christians to continue praying in the synagogues.
 It brought
about the final separation of the Jewish Christian community and the
synagogue.
 

As I said, of course they would do this. Just as the Church did the exact same thing to fellow Christians for having "unorthodox" beliefs such as keeping circumcision and the Torah. Of course the Church never stopped doing this and continued for 2000 years to throw out Christians who didn't have precisely the same theology as everyone else. Yes you'll say "but those people were all heretics"...well, that's how the Jews felt about a group of people claiming things like God had a Son, the Messiah was God, and that the Messiah had already come, and yet the world had not changed in any visible fashion whatsoever. All of this seemed like heresy to Jews, and so it would be perfectly normal for them to make sure heretics were not over running the Synagogues. Just as today, if one of our priests or Bishops claimed "Jesus was NOT the Messiah" he'd be thrown out too.



Quote
The separation was fully complete in 90 AD, by the choice of the Jews.

This is not "completely" accurate. As we read about Christians attending Synagogues well after 90AD. I think probably in the eyes of some the head Rabbis the rift was final in 90AD, however I think there is enough evidence to show the rift took much longer than that. At least until the Bar Kochba Revolt. But obviously Christians CONTINUED to go to Synagogues well in the 4th century (and Jews weren't physically removing them from the buildings) otherwise St. John Chrysostom would NOT have been writing about it and telling people to stop going there.

Quote
The text of this benediction, as it appears in the Geniza of Cairo is as
follows:
 
'May apostates have no hope and the kingdom of
impertinence be uprooted in our day. May the Nozrim
and Minim disappear in the twinkling of an eye. May
they be removed from the book of the living and not
be inscribed among the just. Blessed art thou, O Lord,
who cast down the proud.'

 

Three categories of people are affected by this 'benediction-curse'.
 
1. First of all, Jews who collaborate with the Romans,
 
2. the Roman empire itself, and finally,
 
3. Jews who follow Jesus.
 


Notice that Gentile followers are not even a concern. What was a concern was Jews who had betrayed (in the eyes of fellow Jews) their brethren and their God by helping the Romans destroy the Temple (this would be like Christians helping Israel destroy the Holy Sepulchre, yet even worse because Judaism and the Temple were more intwined and dependent upon each other)...

Second the oppressive regime of Rome, and third JEWS who were corrupting their faith. (again in the eyes of Jews)

I maintain this is no different, and in many ways, much much less offensive than what the Church would later and continue to do for centuries upon centuries.



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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2010, 11:49:03 AM »



During the 300 years from the birth of Christianity until 313 AD, 10 waves of persecution against Christians rolled across the Roman Empire.  We were labelled by law as a "religio illicita" and had no human rights.  We are all familiar with the many films which have shown the cruel and sadistic deaths inflicted on Christians in Roman arenas and Roman prisons and Nero's living torches.

I believe it's now known that the persecution of Christians has been greatly exaggerated over the centuries. Not that Christians weren't persecuted, but most of these persecutions were quite localized (such was what Nero did) and while often they were brutal and violent, they were often short lived. Most of the time persecution was aimed  at Church leaders and not laity.

I think what happened was that Diocletian's persecution was the last, and most brutal and rand has just "stuck" itself in the collective memory of Christianity and the Church ever sense.  We then assume (or are taught) that all the persecution were just like that, but I think history has shown that that's not really true.

Quote
Unfortunately, the Jews took a willing hand in the persecution of Christians.  They came to hate us a pernicious Jewish sect and they reported Christians to the Roman authorities and brought about their death.

In this way the Jews participated in the first and greatest Holocaust of our era ~ a Holocaust against Christians.

I'm sorry but this last statement especially I find to be quite absurd.

 I've heard this before from many Orthodox for many years about how horrible "the Jews" were to "us Christians" in the 3rd century, as if this is supposed to make better sense out of St. John's writings in the late 4th century...(as if he himself had been brutalized in some religious gang fight in Alexandria in the 3rd century, which would "validate" his ideas of Jews and Judaism). It's a childish mindset of, well after all, they did it to us FIRST!)

To say "the Jews" were conspiring with the Roman authorities is also absurd. I've heard this for many years and I also never get much historical records, footnotes, or evidence outside of a report here or there about some religious "mob" fight between Jews and Christians. As horrible as this is, and it is horrible, I don't deny that. And anyone who claims to be a follower of God, and then "fights to the death" with a gang mentality is hardly being faithful to either Judaism or Christianity....but in the end these were isolated cases, which I can hardly classify as "persecution."

Were Christians expelled from the Synagogues? Of course. But is that really the same thing as persecution? I'll have more to say on that in reply to your next post....





The task for Gentile  Christians is too look at how well they have lived up to our Lord's example when Gentiles had power over Jews.

The most persuasive argument a Jew can make against conversation to Christianity is Christian hypocrisy. Has not Christian anger and violence against Jews been motivated by vengeance and hatred?

What has been the Christian attitude toward  Christian Heretics? Was it any better than the attitude of Jews to what they saw as an internal heresy?

So the equation needs to be balanced. Judge not lest ye be judged...etc.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2010, 02:43:30 PM »

Books I still have to get that may talk about the issue:

http://books.google.com/books?id=9zCh9SBb6Y8C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Tosefta+Yadayim&source=bl&ots=uatn1IA_ru&sig=wcWbs7rJ-c__cA1P2XfbuBM6zcA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1 (Jews and Christians the parting of ways 70 A.D. to 135 A.D.)



and

http://books.google.com/books?id=oZ1oNcGRNaAC&dq=Tosefta&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result  (The Tosefta)

I wanted this book because I was trying to trace a quote from another book......that had this in it:

Quote:
Quote
""The first revolt(of 70 A.D.) was a national uprising; this
second Revolt(around 135 A.D. or maybe 150 A.D.) would be a messianic movement.
By means of Akiba's work, a large number of jews joined in the rebellion. Even
Samaritans and pagans joined Bar Cochba in his revolt. However, there was one
Jewish sect which refused to join: that obstinate tribe known as christians. The
Christians, a majority of whom were still ethnically jewish, were pressed to
join in this life and death struggle with Rome, but they refused. To accept bar
Cochba as Messiah, as Akiba insisted, would have been nothing short of Apostasy;
and because of their refusal to do so, Christians were treated by the Jews as
heretics and traitors. It is this same Rabbi Akiba who is the very first writer
to explicity and forthrightly reject the inspiration of both the christian New
Testament and the books of the Deuterocanon. Akiba's declaration is found in
Tosefta Yahayim 2:13 which reads;

"The Gospel and heretical books do not
defile the hands. The books of Ben Sira and all other books written from then
on, do not defile the hands."

Two outstanding points must be drawn from
this impious declaration: first, it must have been common knowledge even at this
early date that the christians accepted the Deutercanon and used it as Scripture
(along with the Gospels), otherwise, there would have been no need to rule
against them; secondly that at least some jews must also have shared that
acceptance, otherwise Akiba's decree would have been superfluous."
Here we
have a hostile witness confirming through his actions that the earliest
christians accepted both the Gospels and the Deuterocanon as inspired and sacred
Scripture. It was in this watershed event- the naming of the false Messiah Bar
Cochba and the Anathematizing of those who rejected him- which occasioned the
very first unquestionable rejection of the Deuteros by a single, widely
recognized Jewish authority. It was under Akiba's tenure that a single textual
tradition of the Old Testament was first adopted; before this time (as we have
shown) a variety of different texts were in use among the jews. It was here,
sometime in the middle of the second Christian century, that Judaism first
adopted an official normative text(i.e. the Masoretic Text or the MT).


pages 68-70 from the book "Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger: the untold Story of the lost books of the Protestant Bible" by Gary G. Michuta"


And so, I had to find the original source for the quote myself.







ICXC NIKA

How were the christians allowed to gather themselves into synagogues in the beggining?

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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 04:18:37 PM »

Fhew, so many posts I need to reply to:

The task for Gentile  Christians is too look at how well they have lived up to our Lord's example when Gentiles had power over Jews.

The most persuasive argument a Jew can make against conversation to Christianity is Christian hypocrisy. Has not Christian anger and violence against Jews been motivated by vengeance and hatred?

What has been the Christian attitude toward  Christian Heretics? Was it any better than the attitude of Jews to what they saw as an internal heresy?

So the equation needs to be balanced. Judge not lest ye be judged...etc.

Amen, amen, amen!

Northern Pipes thanks so much for your reply to Fr. Ambrose post, it saved me a lot of work (I'm pressed for time these days for this reason).

Yes everything you said is true, the persecution of Christians by Jews as described by the Fathers is grossly over exaggerated, all scholars agree that there is NO concrete historical evidence to validate their claims. Fr. Ambrose is correct that Jews did denounce Christians to the Romans when the Roman empire was still pagan but the reason for them doing this was an attempt to lesson the persecution that they themselves were experiencing. Yes the Jews were also persecuted by the pagan Romans, in fact the Greeks and Romans have always been extremely racist towards them even before Messiah's day, they have always hated them. Unfortunately it's very obvious that the Greco-Roman Church allowed far too many Greco-Roman pagan converts to bring this ancient Greco-Roman Antisemitism in with them instead of condemn it as they should've. The results speak for themselves, namely the persecution and hatred of Jews by the Church which continues to this day. And unlike the alledged hateful persecution Orthodox Christians accuse the Jews of, persecution of Jews at the hands of Christians is extensively documented and is irrefutable fact. What can I say, even if you make a life changing decision and follow through with you will inevitably take some baggage along that you'll be too stubborn to shed. That is reality, that is human nature.

When it comes to sin and being caught out what path will we choose, that of Adam or that of David? A lot my secular friends give David a lot of flack, "he was a murderer", "he was adulterer" (and possibly a rapist, Nathan's parable actually portrays him as such). But why did YHWH call him "a man after My own heart"? Because when he sinned and was confronted he immediately not only admitted it but didn't try to excuse it. There were no "buts" or "well ifs" in his confessions, he never tried to deny his sins, and he blamed no one, he took full responsibility and was prepared to accept the consequences without barganning. David did not have a "I'm the king, the highest authority in the land, I can do whatever I want" attitude, he was anything but a hypocrite. David had a perfect understanding of God's view of sin, there's was no "it's not ok for you but it's ok me" reasoning from him. David may not have known half as much about God as the Church Fathers or the Apostles but he knew the heart of God, perhaps even better than Abraham and Moses who YHWH spoke with face to face. Hence God honored David by choosing him to be one of His son's key ancestors, and I honor him by choosing him as my patron saint.

And Adam? We know how the story goes, but I don't think it can be stressed enough that God made it emphatically clear in that story that He is not interested in any attempts of justification and excuses. God knows the heart of every man but not every man knows the heart of God, that includes men that we often associate as being very close to God. Adam walked with God in the garden every day but comparing his "confession" with David's speaks volumes.

The last thing I want to address in Fr. Ambrose post is the Birkat HaMinim:

First this birkat (which ironically means "blessing" in Hebrew), was actually revised from the birkat against the Zaddukim (Sadducees). While uninformed Christians tend to lump the Pharisees and Sadducees together as "partners in crime", with the exception of Messiah's crucifixion the Pharisees (and everyone else) absolutely hated the Sadducees with a passion. The first reason is because they really were minim (heretics), because they only accepted the Torah as Scripture. They didn't even believe in the Jewish Messiah, how could they as they didn't accept the Prophets. They were never going accept Yeshua or anyone else's claim to be the Messiah. Believe me none of the Nazarenes of old were surprised that they wanted to kill Yeshua. The second reason is that the Sadducees were gangsters, they were the Jerusalem Mafia, organized criminals.

Second this curse on me as a Netzari doesn't intimidate me anymore that the curse on me as a Nasara in the Quran which Muslims pronounce on me 5x times everyday because I believe that "Isa is the Son of Allah" and that "al-Masih is Allah". I'm very confident that Ruakh HaQodesh has the power to protect me from any curse. Sticks and stones can break my bones but dead men's curses can never harm me.

Third the Birkat is no longer against the minim, it is now against the malshinim (slanders). The Rabbis changed it due to complaints from the Church Fathers, which, it seems, was more than the Church is willing to do for the Jews, even to this day:

...However, when you study the services for Holy Week, or read patristic commentaries on the Gospel accounts of the Passion, it becomes clear that the Church doesn't let the Jews off so easy... Here I believe I found a key to understanding what the Church is saying... The collective responsibility of the Jews derives from the curse which the Jewish crowd called down upon themselves 'His blood be upon us and our children'. The Church takes this curse seriously, and hence all Jews born into the world do in fact inherit this curse, this special mark of shame for what their ancestors did to Christ. In a similar manner, after Adam's sin, God cursed all of human nature, so that every man or woman born after him inherits the curse of sin and death. In both cases, there is an element of injustice. Although none of us are personally responsible for what Adam did, we still inherit his sin. Likewise, even if the Jews today are not personally responsible for Christ's death, they inherit the sin of their ancestors.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20597.0.html

I'm am going be very blunt here but this viewpoint is wrong, wrong, wrong. And I will prove it with the Almighty's own words from His own mouth:

What do you mean by quoting this proverb upon the soil of Israel, "Parents eat sour grapes and their children's teeth are blunted"? As I live -- declares the Master YHWH - this proverb shall no longer be current among you in Israel. Consider, all lives are Mine; the life of the parent and the life of the child are both Mine. The person who sins, only he shall die. (Ezekiel 18:2-4)

But if this doesn't convince you...

For I YHWH your God am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, to the third and the fourth generations of those who reject Me, but showing kindness to the thousandth generation of those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:5-6)

Man is not eternal and therefore incapable of making anything eternal, even a curse. This is why this curse cannot be compared with the curse of Adam, because it was God who is eternal that pronounced Adam's curse. Unless it's an eternal curse, which only God has the power and authority to pronounce, the curse will get lifted after the third or fourth generation. 2000 years have passed since the Jews at the cross pronounced this curse on themselves and their children, this curse was lifted a long time ago, so it is high time, long overdue in fact, that you guys get over it.
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 04:42:16 PM »


 As for St. John's Chrysostom's Homilies Against the Jews not being infamous amongst Orthodox Christians, this is not true for all Orthodox Christians. There are Orthodox Christians who find those Homilies offensive, including ones on this board,

I believe that the future Saint wrote these deplorable and hatefilled pieces
of psogogical rhetoric calling for the slaughter of the Jews while still a
young man and not ordained and very angry about the role played by the Jews
in the persecution of Christians throughout the Roman Empire.  In other
words the homilies against the Jews do not represent the mature theologian
and saintly bishop which Chrysostom later became.


Psogos - how's that for an obscure word!  A device of rhetorical and exaggerated invective,
and definitely not PC these days.

As I said before I don't judge the man on only one of his works, so I believe that your assessment is the most likely possibility, but that still doesn't make what he said right. Using the blessed Saint David as my inspiration, I will call a spade a spade. Again scholars are in agreement that the Father's portrayal of Jewish hatred for and persecution of Christians is grossly over exaggerated. If you want to continue making such statements you need to offer proof to validate them, I'm not interested in conspiracy theories.

What really angers me about John Chrysostom's Homilies, is not only what he said about the Jews, but more so what he attempted to attribute to God:

God hates them, and indeed has always hated them. But since their murder of Jesus He allows them no time for repentance  [Sermon VI:1].

When it is clear that God hates them, it is the duty of Christians to hate them too [Sermon VI].

I don't need to pull out any Bible verses to refute this. What I will say is I consider putting words in God's mouth that He never said the greatest blasphemy anyone can commit. For me this is an insult to the God I worship, and to me personally as result. It is sacrilege, it's the cheapest shot anyone can take, the lowest anyone can go, and I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few listening to this felt like throwing him out of the church. Had Messiah been there in person I have no doubt that He would've chased him out with a bull whip shouting "Father's house is a house of love, how dare you turn it into a house of hate!"




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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2010, 05:01:15 PM »

Which jewish festivals you think that are not fullfilled in Christ and the Church?

The Fall Feasts: Yom Teruah (Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Atonement) & Sukkot (Tabernacles). These will be fulfilled at His Second Coming.

What do you think of the Two Testaments and Covenants?

Are you speaking of Dispensationalism? (As George says) Fie upon the heresy! The Orthodox Church is the New Israel, we have replaced the old.

Two Testaments: I prefer to call them the Two Testimonies - the Former Testimony and the Latter Testimony because the same Spirit inspired them.

Two Covenants: There were actually more than 2, there was also the Noahic covenant (Genesis 9) for one, the requirements of which are paraphrased at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, consider it the "Torah for the Gentiles" which is how the Jews actually view it.

And for the record I'm definitely not dispensationalist.

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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2010, 06:16:38 PM »

What do you think of the Two Testaments and Covenants?

Are you speaking of Dispensationalism? (As George says) Fie upon the heresy! The Orthodox Church is the New Israel, we have replaced the old.

I don't like this idea of "replace". The Biblical metaphor is that of a tree which gets groomed by the husbandman (namely God). People leave the household of faith and others enter it at any time they want, God does not create a "new tree". This has happened in every chapter of the bible if you think about it: Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Reuben and Judah, the Samaritans and the Jews, the lost tribes who left their brethren versus the people that stayed, Judas versus the other Apostles, etc. I don't view any of these cases as God creating a "new" tree of faithful. Further, I don't really like this triumphalist attitude since scripture says a branch of the Church which does not bear fruit can be cut off and the old branches easily re-instated (Romans 11:21).
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2010, 06:20:48 PM »

The general tone of the diatribes against the Jews is antithetical to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


"But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I
say that. No Jew adores God! Who says so? The Son of God says so. For He
said, 'If you were to know My Father, you would also know Me. But you
neither know Me nor do you know My Father.' Could I produce a witness more
trustworthy than the Son of God?"


Is Saint John telling the truth? How many here are wiling to place their hand on the Gospel and say "Jesus Christ has revealed that the Jews do not worship God"?

How many are willing to go that far with Saint John's folly and exaggerative statement - great, and acceptable, rhetoric by the standards of his day but was it God's truth?

And if we continue with some more of his words:

"If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified
the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should
not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a
dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven
forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry.
But still some people pay it honor as a holy place."

Again, we see Chrysostom exaggerating in a way which would be seen as simply mendacious and hatefilled these days.

But notice one important things. Notice that he admits that "still some people pay it honor as a holy place." Chrysostom admits a few times in his diatribes against the Jews that other Christians do not agree with his harsh words. Other Christians saw him as wrong in these matters.
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2010, 07:04:02 PM »

But notice one important things. Notice that he admits that "still some people pay it honor as a holy place." Chrysostom admits a few times in his diatribes against the Jews that other Christians do not agree with his harsh words. Other Christians saw him as wrong in these matters.

It is possible to state both truth and falsehood in the same speech. Look, I don't at all believe that the Great Golden Mouth was being deceitful, he was indeed sincere, sincerely wrong on many points but not on all of them.

Lest anyone assume that I ascribe to the common Roman Catholic position, that Jews don't need Yeshua for their salvation because of their covenant with YHWH, I'm want to make it clear that I don't. There is no salvation without the Son of God, the Torah is about praxis not theology. God gave the Israelites the Torah after He saved them from the Egyptians. Even the sacrifices, in the grand scheme of things were actually about appealing to God's mercy for forgiveness not to achieve Theosis. That is what I believe Paul meant when he said no one is saved by the Torah, that does not make the Torah useless today, it is important for other purposes.

And thanks for confirming my suspicions that other Christians that Chrysostom knew didn't agree with him. I think this was a case of St. John allowing his zeal to spiral out of control, that's forgivable. I know my illustration of Messiah chasing him out with a bull whip was quite harsh, though had he repented afterwards Yeshua would've gladly welcomed him back. It must be remembered that Messiah told us to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you", is there really room for Christians cursing anyone at all? As a poster on the other forum said, rather read his commentaries on the Gospels or marriage, which were his strong points.

What do you think of the Two Testaments and Covenants?

Are you speaking of Dispensationalism? (As George says) Fie upon the heresy! The Orthodox Church is the New Israel, we have replaced the old.

I don't like this idea of "replace". The Biblical metaphor is that of a tree which gets groomed by the husbandman (namely God). People leave the household of faith and others enter it at any time they want, God does not create a "new tree". This has happened in every chapter of the bible if you think about it: Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Reuben and Judah, the Samaritans and the Jews, the lost tribes who left their brethren versus the people that stayed, Judas versus the other Apostles, etc. I don't view any of these cases as God creating a "new" tree of faithful. Further, I don't really like this triumphalist attitude since scripture says a branch of the Church which does not bear fruit can be cut off and the old branches easily re-instated (Romans 11:21).

That is exactly my understanding as well. To be fair the Orthodox view of "Replacement Theology" is not as extreme as that of some other traditions. The Orthodox Church don't see the Jews as a hopeless case, and do acknowledge that in the end "all Israel will be saved" (fulfillment of Yom Kippur). But yeah I don't like the idea of replacement or the term "Replacement Theology" either. I could be wrong but I don't think this term is even found in the Fathers, it was coined by the Catholics or Protestants I think.

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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2010, 05:14:10 AM »

Which jewish festivals you think that are not fullfilled in Christ and the Church?

The Fall Feasts: Yom Teruah (Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Atonement) & Sukkot (Tabernacles). These will be fulfilled at His Second Coming.

What do you think of the Two Testaments and Covenants?

Are you speaking of Dispensationalism? (As George says) Fie upon the heresy! The Orthodox Church is the New Israel, we have replaced the old.

Two Testaments: I prefer to call them the Two Testimonies - the Former Testimony and the Latter Testimony because the same Spirit inspired them.

Two Covenants: There were actually more than 2, there was also the Noahic covenant (Genesis 9) for one, the requirements of which are paraphrased at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, consider it the "Torah for the Gentiles" which is how the Jews actually view it.

And for the record I'm definitely not dispensationalist.



Those 3 feasts are accomplished partly in the Church, afaik.Correct me if i`m wrong.The Feasts of Trumpets is all about repentance and the day of judgement,no?Well remmeber that before Christ , John the Baptist came baptising with the baptism of repentace telling people to be prepared that the kingdom is at hand.Christ before going to the cross said : "Now is the judgement of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out".Than the feast of Atonement, the feast of Atonement is related with repentance and it`s about atonement.I read that according to judaism this feast was important because the way they lived in this feast will be how they will be in the next year.The Atonement is made of Christ, who shed His blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.In Him we have the righteoussness of God.Both this feasts are present in form of Sacraments in the Church.The Sacrament of Confession(Repentance,Pennance - for Trumpets) , Confession and Eucharistic for the Feast of Atonement.The Feasts of Tabernacle represents the age of the Church.The age we entered through the Resurrection of Christ.This feast was on the 8th day and 1st day, something like that.The Feast of Tabernacle represents the communion of the Church which is in the Church that was established by Christ.The Church which is the house of the Living God.And in the Church at liturghy the whole heavenly host is present.The whole Church rejoices together, heaven and earth.
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2010, 10:04:02 AM »

Those 3 feasts are accomplished partly in the Church, afaik.

The Fall Feasts are symbolic for real events that will occur at Messiah's Second Coming just like the Spring Feasts are symbolic for real events that occurred at His First Coming. There's a reason why these Feasts are grouped into two different seasons and why there is a season between them.

Well remmeber that before Christ , John the Baptist came baptising with the baptism of repentace telling people to be prepared that the kingdom is at hand.Christ before going to the cross said : "Now is the judgement of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out".

The Feast of Trumpets is about the day of Judgement, the Gathering of the Chosen ("rapture") and the Resurrection of the dead, to sum it up "the Blessed Hope of the Church":

Blow a trumpet in Zion, Sound an alarm on My holy mount! Let all dwellers on earth tremble, For the day of YHWH has come! (Joel 2:1)

And he will send his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather his chosen [ones] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

Behold, I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will sleep, but all of us will be changed, suddenly, as the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet sounding, and the dead will rise without corruption and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Now this we say to you, by the word of our Lord, that we who remain at the coming of our Lord who are living will not overtake those who are asleep, because our Lord, with a command and with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead who are in Christ will rise up first. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)

Than the feast of Atonement, the feast of Atonement is related with repentance and it`s about atonement.I read that according to judaism this feast was important because the way they lived in this feast will be how they will be in the next year.

The Day of Atonement is about repentance, but for a certain group of people:

For I want you to know this mystery, my brothers, so that you will not be wise in your own mind, that blindness of the heart in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And then all Israel will have life, as it is written: FROM ZION A DELIVERER WILL COME AND TURN WICKEDNESS FROM JACOB. AND THEN THEY WILL HAVE THE COVENANT THAT IS FROM ME, WHEN I FORGIVE THEM THEIR SINS. (Romans 11:25-27)

Behold, he comes with clouds and all eyes will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn concerning him. Yes and amen. (Revelation 1:7)

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

The Atonement is made of Christ, who shed His blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.In Him we have the righteoussness of God.

This event was the fulfillment of the Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread.

Both this feasts are present in form of Sacraments in the Church.The Sacrament of Confession(Repentance,Pennance - for Trumpets) , Confession and Eucharistic for the Feast of Atonement. The Feasts of Tabernacle represents the age of the Church.The age we entered through the Resurrection of Christ.

The Resurrection of Messiah was the fulfillment of the Feast of First Fruits. The birth of the Church is the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks.

This feast was on the 8th day and 1st day, something like that.The Feast of Tabernacle represents the communion of the Church which is in the Church that was established by Christ.The Church which is the house of the Living God.And in the Church at liturghy the whole heavenly host is present.The whole Church rejoices together, heaven and earth.

The Feast of Tabernacles represents the age that is to come:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had gone away and there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, come down from heaven from God, prepared sas a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven that said, "Behold, the dwelling of God [is] with men, and he [will] live with them and they will be his own people and God is with them and will be a God to them. (Revelation 21:1-3)

All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts and to observe the Feast of Booths. Any of the earth's communities that does not make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts shall receive no rain. However, if the community of Egypt does not make this pilgrimage, it shall not be visited by the same affliction with which YHWH will strike the other nations that do not come up to observe the Feast of Booths. Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and of all other nations that do not come up to observe the Feast of Booths. (Zechariah 14:16-19)

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« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2010, 11:06:46 AM »

The general tone of the diatribes against the Jews is antithetical to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


"But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I
say that. No Jew adores God! Who says so? The Son of God says so. For He
said, 'If you were to know My Father, you would also know Me. But you
neither know Me nor do you know My Father.' Could I produce a witness more
trustworthy than the Son of God?"



For all the brilliance of St John Chrysostom, he obviously read the Gospels with very different eyes than I (and most people) today do. A few verses before (or after since that translation makes it hard to find exactly where that quote is from) it's made perfectly clear that Jesus is not addressing all Jews everywhere, but only those Jews in the crowd who were accusing Him of blasphemy. At one point (several times) the Gospel of John writes something akin to "then the Jews debated among themselves, some saying he had a demon, and others saying "how can he not be from God when he does all these good works?" (I seriously paraphrase but for reference see John 10:21 for starters)


Quote
Is Saint John telling the truth? How many here are wiling to place their hand on the Gospel and say "Jesus Christ has revealed that the Jews do not worship God"?

I certainly would NOT place my hand on the Bible and say such a thing. Nor would I say such a thing for any reason. BTW which St. John are refering to? Chrysostom or the Gospel writer? I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. For all the antisemitism that can be drudged up in John's Gospel, it also happens to be the very same Gospel where Jesus is recorded to have said "Salvation is of the Jews".


Quote
How many are willing to go that far with Saint John's folly and exaggerative statement - great, and acceptable, rhetoric by the standards of his day but was it God's truth?

Indeed it was NOT God's truth. it's the opinion of a great Church father, would had SERIOUS issues with Jews and Judaism. (of course I assume you mean Chrysostom)


Quote

Again, we see Chrysostom exaggerating in a way which would be seen as simply mendacious and hatefilled these days.

I don't think he's just using hyperbole or exaggerating. I've read all 8 of his homilies "against the Judaizers" as we say...but the truth is a few of them really are a bunch of sermons against "The Jews" and Judaism.  And I'm sure they seemed hateful in HIS day too.

I just don't buy this whole excuse that "well in those days, it was a different culture, time, and people had different biases that we do now, that kind of language was typical"...Yes, that is true to a degree. However shouldn't someone who is supposed to have been a holy individual, been able to rise above the spirit of his time in such a way as to realize such attitudes were indeed hateful? I'm sure Jews reading his words thought it was hateful. The excuse (which I've argued myself in the distant past) that the Church fathers just really didn't know any better given the time and place they lived just doesn't hold up IMO, either to historical scrutiny or Orthodox Christian teaching. It certainly does in areas of scientific knowledge, but hate is hate. The Church fathers talked often about how Pagans and Jews "hated" Christians...or how heretics hated 'the spotless bride of Christ' and on and on. The fathers were not wholly ignorant of the concept of religious hatred and bigotry as you so argued previously when it came to persecutions of Christians.

Yes it was a different time, place, culture and a different Zeitgeist, but it wasn't so wholly "other" that the fathers were incapable of telling the difference between hate and tolerance. Certainly no one in the 4th century had a concept of human rights, individual liberty, or really even a concept of ethnicity and nationality...cultural evolution is a reality and it's not completely fair to say Christians might have been "racists". I don't think Christian antisemitism was "racist" in the same sense The Holocaust was racist because I'm not confident a concept such as "race" (in the same sense we have such a concept post Enlightenment) even existed.  OTH hate is hate, bias is bias, and as great of a saint as John Chrysostom was, this was a serious hang up, ie: sin, that he had. And I don't see any other way of saying it. He was anti-Jewish, anti-Judaism, (though the modern phrase antisemitic probably requires a few explanations) and that's that.

In the end even if Chrysostom and other fathers who had antisemitic leanings are 100% products of their time, (which raises a bunch of other theological questions and contradictions but I digress) they still IMO should have been able to see Jesus' words of love your enemies, father forgive them for they know not what they do and others as valid commandments. But they thought they didn't apply to "the Jews" (or the heretics) and I don't think that type of thinking can just be summed up to the 4th century Zeitgeist because other people including Christian, Pagan and Jewish writings from that time show that moral ignorance was not as rampant as our defenses of some of the Church fathers make it seem.


Quote
But notice one important things. Notice that he admits that "still some people pay it honor as a holy place." Chrysostom admits a few times in his diatribes against the Jews that other Christians do not agree with his harsh words. Other Christians saw him as wrong in these matters.

Yeah, but he's at the same time bashing those who disagree with him on this point. Obviously many Christians didn't agree with him, but he has some severe words for those who didn't agree with him, almost as severe of words as he has for Jews.

I'm not saying he was evil, or the 4th century Hitler, that of course would be nonsense. I do think he had a form of holiness many could only hope to attain, but I just don't think he ever let go of this hatred of Jews. Where it came from I do not know. But I think, and I think most scholars believe, that he was antisemitic (or proto-antisemitic might be a better term) and that's that. The saints weren't perfect, some of them FAR from it. I don't hate St. John Chrysostom, and Nazarene has said as much as well....but we should call a spade a spade and admit he had a serious hang up about Jews and the Jewish faith. Some of this is explainable by the Zeitgeist of the 4th century, but sadly much, maybe even most of it is not. And it's something we have to admit IMO. Because far too many Orthodox, to this very day, use his writings for the most horrific tirades against Jews and claim that it is "perfectly Orthodox" when you and I know it is not.



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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2010, 12:28:55 PM »

Those 3 feasts are accomplished partly in the Church, afaik.

The Fall Feasts are symbolic for real events that will occur at Messiah's Second Coming just like the Spring Feasts are symbolic for real events that occurred at His First Coming. There's a reason why these Feasts are grouped into two different seasons and why there is a season between them.

Well remmeber that before Christ , John the Baptist came baptising with the baptism of repentace telling people to be prepared that the kingdom is at hand.Christ before going to the cross said : "Now is the judgement of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out".

The Feast of Trumpets is about the day of Judgement, the Gathering of the Chosen ("rapture") and the Resurrection of the dead, to sum it up "the Blessed Hope of the Church":

Blow a trumpet in Zion, Sound an alarm on My holy mount! Let all dwellers on earth tremble, For the day of YHWH has come! (Joel 2:1)

And he will send his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather his chosen [ones] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

Behold, I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will sleep, but all of us will be changed, suddenly, as the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet sounding, and the dead will rise without corruption and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Now this we say to you, by the word of our Lord, that we who remain at the coming of our Lord who are living will not overtake those who are asleep, because our Lord, with a command and with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead who are in Christ will rise up first. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)

Than the feast of Atonement, the feast of Atonement is related with repentance and it`s about atonement.I read that according to judaism this feast was important because the way they lived in this feast will be how they will be in the next year.

The Day of Atonement is about repentance, but for a certain group of people:

For I want you to know this mystery, my brothers, so that you will not be wise in your own mind, that blindness of the heart in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And then all Israel will have life, as it is written: FROM ZION A DELIVERER WILL COME AND TURN WICKEDNESS FROM JACOB. AND THEN THEY WILL HAVE THE COVENANT THAT IS FROM ME, WHEN I FORGIVE THEM THEIR SINS. (Romans 11:25-27)

Behold, he comes with clouds and all eyes will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn concerning him. Yes and amen. (Revelation 1:7)

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

The Atonement is made of Christ, who shed His blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.In Him we have the righteoussness of God.

This event was the fulfillment of the Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread.

Both this feasts are present in form of Sacraments in the Church.The Sacrament of Confession(Repentance,Pennance - for Trumpets) , Confession and Eucharistic for the Feast of Atonement. The Feasts of Tabernacle represents the age of the Church.The age we entered through the Resurrection of Christ.

The Resurrection of Messiah was the fulfillment of the Feast of First Fruits. The birth of the Church is the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks.

This feast was on the 8th day and 1st day, something like that.The Feast of Tabernacle represents the communion of the Church which is in the Church that was established by Christ.The Church which is the house of the Living God.And in the Church at liturghy the whole heavenly host is present.The whole Church rejoices together, heaven and earth.

The Feast of Tabernacles represents the age that is to come:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had gone away and there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, come down from heaven from God, prepared sas a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven that said, "Behold, the dwelling of God [is] with men, and he [will] live with them and they will be his own people and God is with them and will be a God to them. (Revelation 21:1-3)

All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts and to observe the Feast of Booths. Any of the earth's communities that does not make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts shall receive no rain. However, if the community of Egypt does not make this pilgrimage, it shall not be visited by the same affliction with which YHWH will strike the other nations that do not come up to observe the Feast of Booths. Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and of all other nations that do not come up to observe the Feast of Booths. (Zechariah 14:16-19)



Forgive my ignorance ( I am waaay out of my league here). But do you think the Transfiguration of Our Lord on Mt. Tabor caps off and completes the Feast of Tabernacles? At the end Jesus stands alone.

 "After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. "
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2010, 02:12:19 PM »

The birth of the Church is the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks.

The Orthodox do celebrate the Feast of Weeks. It's Pentecost, of course.
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2010, 02:38:21 PM »

Those 3 feasts are accomplished partly in the Church, afaik.

The Fall Feasts are symbolic for real events that will occur at Messiah's Second Coming just like the Spring Feasts are symbolic for real events that occurred at His First Coming. There's a reason why these Feasts are grouped into two different seasons and why there is a season between them.

Well remmeber that before Christ , John the Baptist came baptising with the baptism of repentace telling people to be prepared that the kingdom is at hand.Christ before going to the cross said : "Now is the judgement of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out".

The Feast of Trumpets is about the day of Judgement, the Gathering of the Chosen ("rapture") and the Resurrection of the dead, to sum it up "the Blessed Hope of the Church":

Blow a trumpet in Zion, Sound an alarm on My holy mount! Let all dwellers on earth tremble, For the day of YHWH has come! (Joel 2:1)

And he will send his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather his chosen [ones] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

Behold, I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will sleep, but all of us will be changed, suddenly, as the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet sounding, and the dead will rise without corruption and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Now this we say to you, by the word of our Lord, that we who remain at the coming of our Lord who are living will not overtake those who are asleep, because our Lord, with a command and with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven and the dead who are in Christ will rise up first. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)

Than the feast of Atonement, the feast of Atonement is related with repentance and it`s about atonement.I read that according to judaism this feast was important because the way they lived in this feast will be how they will be in the next year.

The Day of Atonement is about repentance, but for a certain group of people:

For I want you to know this mystery, my brothers, so that you will not be wise in your own mind, that blindness of the heart in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And then all Israel will have life, as it is written: FROM ZION A DELIVERER WILL COME AND TURN WICKEDNESS FROM JACOB. AND THEN THEY WILL HAVE THE COVENANT THAT IS FROM ME, WHEN I FORGIVE THEM THEIR SINS. (Romans 11:25-27)

Behold, he comes with clouds and all eyes will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn concerning him. Yes and amen. (Revelation 1:7)

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

The Atonement is made of Christ, who shed His blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.In Him we have the righteoussness of God.

This event was the fulfillment of the Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread.

Both this feasts are present in form of Sacraments in the Church.The Sacrament of Confession(Repentance,Pennance - for Trumpets) , Confession and Eucharistic for the Feast of Atonement. The Feasts of Tabernacle represents the age of the Church.The age we entered through the Resurrection of Christ.

The Resurrection of Messiah was the fulfillment of the Feast of First Fruits. The birth of the Church is the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks.

This feast was on the 8th day and 1st day, something like that.The Feast of Tabernacle represents the communion of the Church which is in the Church that was established by Christ.The Church which is the house of the Living God.And in the Church at liturghy the whole heavenly host is present.The whole Church rejoices together, heaven and earth.

The Feast of Tabernacles represents the age that is to come:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had gone away and there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, come down from heaven from God, prepared sas a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven that said, "Behold, the dwelling of God [is] with men, and he [will] live with them and they will be his own people and God is with them and will be a God to them. (Revelation 21:1-3)

All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts and to observe the Feast of Booths. Any of the earth's communities that does not make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts shall receive no rain. However, if the community of Egypt does not make this pilgrimage, it shall not be visited by the same affliction with which YHWH will strike the other nations that do not come up to observe the Feast of Booths. Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and of all other nations that do not come up to observe the Feast of Booths. (Zechariah 14:16-19)



The Feast of the Trumpets is accomplished in Christ , His death and Resurrection.As I said and as it is written:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

This being said about satan.

It is also written:

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

The jugdement started at Christ`s death.Than is when the first trumpet was blown, and the time since the Kingdom of heaven came and the end of the world.The last trumpet will be blown in the end of the Last Judgement when Christ will descend from heaven to Judge the living and the death.This Feast already started of being accomplished and was accomplished in Christ and through Christ.

The Feast of Atonement is for the atonement of the whole world, and represents the sacrifice of Jesus as I said above and His shed blood for all who God will call and the whole Church.It is not adressed only to the jews.Cause God is also the God of the entire world,and the psalms say "the nations His people"(psa 2).This also accomplished in Christ.

The Feast of Tabernacle represents the Church, and the ruling of Christ on earth through the Church.The Church was not established at Pentecost, but on the Cross when the altar of the Temple broke, and when the first assemblies came to an end.All this feasts accomplished in Jesus and are taken further through His Church, as He said on the Cross: "It is finished".And this will all "end"(fulfill entirely) with the end of the world.
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 03:03:13 PM »

Forgive my ignorance ( I am waaay out of my league here). But do you think the Transfiguration of Our Lord on Mt. Tabor caps off and completes the Feast of Tabernacles? At the end Jesus stands alone.

 "After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. "


I would not say that it fulfills it but it indeed does give us a taste of what is to come, an idea of what to expect. After all Yeshua did say that He will return in the exact way that He departed. His Ascension was must definitely a real event and His entrance into the world for the second time will be a glorious one any king would envy.  There is a lot of typology in the OT concerning Christ's First Coming and Second Coming. Likewise I can identify a lot of typology in the Church's Liturgical life concerning His Second Coming, and I don't think this a a coincidence. But typology is not the same thing a fulfillment, if Christ fulfilled everything at His First Advent then there would be no reason for Him to return, and I know the Church considers Preterism to be heresy. It is often said these days that truth is subjective, I however believe that the one key element for identifying truth is consistency, after all a liar cannot keep his story straight. If the Spring Feasts were fulfilled as real (i.e. literal) events the first time around then there is no reason, as I see it, to think otherwise for the Fall Feasts, "I YHWH do not change."

What is commonly called the "Jewish Feasts" are really the Set Times (Moedim) of YHWH, which He instated even before He created man:

God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate day from night; they shall serve as signs for the set times (moedim) -- the days and the years; (Genesis 1:14)

Compare with this:

YHWH spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the Israelite people and say to them: These are My fixed times (moedim), the fixed times (moedim) of YHWH, which you shall proclaim as sacred occasions. (Leviticus 23:1-2)

God instated His Set Times at Creation itself but He did not reveal what they were until we get to Moses. But even though He revealed what they were to the Israelites, He did not reveal what they mean until He sent His Son into the world.

Even the seasons of the year have a story to tell, our God is certainly not arbitrary, He does everything for a reason:

*Winter, the cold and dark season which preceeds spring represents the cold and dark reign of sin and death over humanity brought on by the fall. There are no Set Times in the season of winter (Hanukkah is not one of YHWH's Moedim), and the reason is obvious.

*Like Spring melts away the winter, Christ's sacrifice on the Cross melted away the icy grip of sin and death which humanity was under by fulfilling every Spring Feast: Peaskh, Khag HaMatzah, Yom HaBikkurim & Shavuot, on the exact days those Feasts were celebrated.

*Summer. Summer is the season that is associated with labour, planting, growth and cultivation. No Set Times for this season, again the reason is obvious. This is the season we are in right now.

*Autumn/Fall is the harvest season, where we get returns on our investments. There are 3 Set Times for this season: Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur & Sukkot. The theme of equating the Day of Judgement with the harvest season can be seen in the Parable of the Weeds.

I'll be glad to go into specific details of how Christ fulfilled the Spring Feasts and how He will fulfill the Fall Feasts. But for now I'll leave you with this:

And from one blood he made the whole world of men to be living on the face of all the earth. And he appointed the seasons by his commandment and set boundaries for the habitation of men, that they would seek and inquire after God and by his creations find him, because he is also not far from all of us. (Acts 17:26-27)

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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2010, 03:07:17 PM »

The Feast of the Trumpets is accomplished in Christ , His death and Resurrection.As I said and as it is written:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

This being said about satan.

It is also written:

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

The jugdement started at Christ`s death.Than is when the first trumpet was blown, and the time since the Kingdom of heaven came and the end of the world.The last trumpet will be blown in the end of the Last Judgement when Christ will descend from heaven to Judge the living and the death.This Feast already started of being accomplished and was accomplished in Christ and through Christ.

The Feast of Atonement is for the atonement of the whole world, and represents the sacrifice of Jesus as I said above and His shed blood for all who God will call and the whole Church.It is not adressed only to the jews.Cause God is also the God of the entire world,and the psalms say "the nations His people"(psa 2).This also accomplished in Christ.

The Feast of Tabernacle represents the Church, and the ruling of Christ on earth through the Church.The Church was not established at Pentecost, but on the Cross when the altar of the Temple broke, and when the first assemblies came to an end.All this feasts accomplished in Jesus and are taken further through His Church, as He said on the Cross: "It is finished".And this will all "end"(fulfill entirely) with the end of the world.

See above. Everything is fixed to happen at it's set time. Not a moment sooner or later.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 03:08:51 PM by Nazarene » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2010, 03:10:04 PM »



God instated His Set Times at Creation itself but He did not reveal what they were until we get to Moses. But even though He revealed what they were to the Israelites, He did not reveal what they mean until He sent His Son into the world.



Pure typicall jewish bigotry speculations, as there are many others.However this is not stated anywhere and it is unbiblical.This sects of judaism ..
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 03:22:52 PM »

The Feast of the Trumpets is accomplished in Christ , His death and Resurrection.As I said and as it is written:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

This being said about satan.

It is also written:

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

The jugdement started at Christ`s death.Than is when the first trumpet was blown, and the time since the Kingdom of heaven came and the end of the world.The last trumpet will be blown in the end of the Last Judgement when Christ will descend from heaven to Judge the living and the death.This Feast already started of being accomplished and was accomplished in Christ and through Christ.

The Feast of Atonement is for the atonement of the whole world, and represents the sacrifice of Jesus as I said above and His shed blood for all who God will call and the whole Church.It is not adressed only to the jews.Cause God is also the God of the entire world,and the psalms say "the nations His people"(psa 2).This also accomplished in Christ.

The Feast of Tabernacle represents the Church, and the ruling of Christ on earth through the Church.The Church was not established at Pentecost, but on the Cross when the altar of the Temple broke, and when the first assemblies came to an end.All this feasts accomplished in Jesus and are taken further through His Church, as He said on the Cross: "It is finished".And this will all "end"(fulfill entirely) with the end of the world.

See above. Everything is fixed to happen at it's set time. Not a moment sooner or later.


Every feast is accomplished in the Church and Christ.As I stated, the Judgement already happened, see John 12:31.The Atonement already happened, see Christ`s sacrifice and His shed blood on the Cross.And the New Jerusalem had already come, as He said : "Brake this Temple and after three days I shall build it again".The church took birth together with Christ`s death and resurrection.This is the Feast of Tabernacle.Observe "the new" , The New Jerusalem, the New Israel, and the true one.This being named spiritually.And this is what the number eight symbolises renewing,rebirth , a new beggining , a new start.This is the Church, the true Temple of God, the House of the God of hosts in which he tents together with all the hosts, people and angels rejoicing together : the victorious church together with the combatant church.As it is been at Christ`s birth.David is a member of the church, Moses is a member of the Church, and so is Abraham,Isaac and Jacob.The Church is the Body of Christ who will not be defeated by the gates of Hades(Hell).
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 03:26:24 PM »



God instated His Set Times at Creation itself but He did not reveal what they were until we get to Moses. But even though He revealed what they were to the Israelites, He did not reveal what they mean until He sent His Son into the world.



Pure typicall jewish bigotry speculations, as there are many others.However this is not stated anywhere and it is unbiblical.This sects of judaism ..

Huh

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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2010, 04:07:55 PM »



God instated His Set Times at Creation itself but He did not reveal what they were until we get to Moses. But even though He revealed what they were to the Israelites, He did not reveal what they mean until He sent His Son into the world.



Pure typicall jewish bigotry speculations, as there are many others.However this is not stated anywhere and it is unbiblical.This sects of judaism ..

Huh



Welcome to the Internet. Not everything is cogent.
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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2010, 05:43:19 PM »

Dear Nazarene,

I see that a few months back you were a participant in the thread "Messianic Judaism."  There are a lot of references there to Fr James Bernstein...  his father was a rabbi in Jerusalem, the son converted to Christianity in an evangelical form and is now an Orthodox priest.  He is an author writing on Christianity and Messianic Judaism.

Here is a post with many references to his works...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23165.msg353694.html#msg353694

Fr James Bernstein would have the answers to your questions.... as well as discussing things on the Forum you could start up a useful correspondence with him?

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2010, 07:07:15 AM »

Dear Nazarene,

I see that a few months back you were a participant in the thread "Messianic Judaism."  There are a lot of references there to Fr James Bernstein...  his father was a rabbi in Jerusalem, the son converted to Christianity in an evangelical form and is now an Orthodox priest.  He is an author writing on Christianity and Messianic Judaism.

Here is a post with many references to his works...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23165.msg353694.html#msg353694

Fr James Bernstein would have the answers to your questions.... as well as discussing things on the Forum you could start up a useful correspondence with him?

Fr Ambrose


Thank you for your recommendation, I would be honoured to converse with him. If you (or anyone else here) have his contact details pm them to me.

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« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2010, 07:10:57 AM »


Thank you for your recommendation, I would be honoured to converse with him. If you (or anyone else here) have his contact details pm them to me.


Here is Father James' parish website and his contact e-mail is at the bottom of the page.

http://www.stpaul-orthodox.org/
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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2010, 07:14:14 AM »

Cool thank you.
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« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2010, 08:17:32 PM »

Quote
And WRT Messiah completing and fulfilling all the Torah, are you sure about that? If He did then what's the point of Him returning? If He did make the Torah null and void then on what basis will He judge the living and the dead at His Second Coming? He did not fulfill all the Torah yet that's why He said this:

Matthew 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to change the law or the prophets. I have not come to change, but to fulfill [them]. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one stroke will pass from the law until everything happens.

Heaven and earth are yet to pass and things like the Resurrection are yet to happen.

This is why I don't understand why the Orthodox Church has dropped the Feasts of YHWH...
You quoted the passage that says that not a jot or stroke would pass from the Law (The Torah) until everything happens, and I would tend to agree that there are still things (like the second coming, the judgment, and the resurrection of the body) that are yet to happen (i'd even agree that Trumpets and Tabernacles seem to point to some of these things), but wouldn't you agree that The Torah was only given to Israel?

One thing the Jerusalem Council seems to make clear is that Gentiles (like myself) are under no obligation to be circumcised, observe Jewish Feasts, or keep kosher.

Galatians seems to make it equally clear that it's heresy for any believer (Jew or Gentile) to try to earn salvation by doing such things.

What I don't understand is why the Church would forbid Jewish belivers from circumcising their children, observing their holidays, and keepng Kosher (when the book of Acts says that Paul was falsely accused of teaching them to do this--Acts 21:20-25.)
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