Topic: My boyfriend is pentecostal how do i get him to respect orthodoxy?

[nenieeee]

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

[Tzimis]

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

There are people in the church that are at different levels of spiritual awareness. Therefore you will see many ideas tossed around that seem to clash with what the church actually believes. That's why it's best to speak to your priest since he is the one responsible for your salvation.

[zoarthegleaner]

Drop him, show him that Orthodoxy, not boyfriends are your first love.

john

[Heorhij]

i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Nenieeee, anyone who was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity is a Christian. Nevertheless, the Church is one; there are no "different churches" - that's a Protestant fallacy. One is either IN the Church (that is, in the Orthodox Church), or outside of it. So yes, Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and a lot of other people who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christians, but they are not in the Church. We want them all to be in the Church, but it's up to them to join.

We are in the Church because we believe that the Church (=the Orthodox Church) has preserved the true teaching of Christ and the Apostles, while those who are outside of the Church distort this true teaching in various ways. We need to say it out loud in front of those who are outside of the Church, without "sugar-coating" it.

As for who is going to hell - how can we know that? As Quinault has pointed out, none of us can be completely sure about our own salvation, far less about salvation of another human being whose heart we do not know (only God knows the hearts). We want everyone to be saved and we know that in the Church, our salvation is being worked out (even though each of us can at any moment "drop out"). As for those outside of the Church, again, we wish them all well and we wish them all to be saved, and we know that God's grace and mercy are limitless, but "knowing" that Person A will be saved and Person B will go to hell is not for us.

None of us can be completely sure of our salvation?  St. Seraphim of Sarov save us from such foolish reasoning.  The hagiography of the Church does not agree with such self deprecating sentimentalism.

john

What in St. Seraphim makes you think he was arguing for individual assurance of salvation? As far as I know, his very famous quote is, "Save yourself (by acquiring the Holy Spirit. --H.), and by this many people around you will be saved" ("cпасай сeбя (стяжаниeм Святого Духа), и тeм многиe вокруг тeбя спасутся"). But he meant the PROCESS or the "work" of salvation, not the final result. (In fact, the original Russian quote might be better translated into English like "be saving yourself," or "be busy saving yourself.") All Orthodox saints believed about themselves that they were the greatest sinners, and were, AFAIK, completely UNsure of their personal salvation... You can read in some monastic ascetic Fathers an admonition that one should consider him- or herself the WORST of sinners, NOT being worthy of salvation...

[Heorhij]

Drop him, show him that Orthodoxy, not boyfriends are your first love.

john

Do you also want me to drop my wife?

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

You are 100% right: we should not take advantage of this thread to argue with each other. On the other hand, this forum does tend to act as a debating society at times--just what you would expect from a large family gathering.  

By the way, you had said earlier that your boyfriend is "mesmerized" by the Holy Spirit. I take to mean that he is serious about encountering God and growing closer to Him. But, these are exactly what Orthodox Christians do. Once he sees that you are "mesmerized" by Christ, as well as the Holy Spirit, his estimation of Orthodoxy will improve and he may even consent to go to Church with you and check it out seriously (as I said earlier, for a considerable period of time) unless he believes in the particular stress amongst Pentecostals on speaking in tongues.

Praying for the best, Kyrill

[tuesdayschild]

Drop him, show him that Orthodoxy, not boyfriends are your first love.

john

Do you also want me to drop my wife?

Not that I agree with John, but this is an unfair comparison.  You are married to your wife.  She isn't married to her boyfriend.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

You are 100% right: we should not take advantage of this thread to argue with each other. On the other hand, this forum does tend to act as a debating society at times--just what you would expect from a large family gathering.  

When Orthodox get together, it's always a large family gathering.

[Heorhij]

Drop him, show him that Orthodoxy, not boyfriends are your first love.

john

Do you also want me to drop my wife?

Not that I agree with John, but this is an unfair comparison.  You are married to your wife.  She isn't married to her boyfriend.

Agreed. Sorry, that was unfair on my part.

[zoarthegleaner]

St. Seraphim urged and exhorted many to come to him after his repose wherein they would experience the certainty of his salvation as intercession for those whose hearts are burdened.  Secondly, we just recently celebrated the Lenten Service of St. Mary of Egypt...of which St. Zosimas wa certain of her salvation and  the whole Church since on his testomony. 

Furthermore, the Apostle John tells us that even if our hearts fail to comfort us, God is bigger than our hearts.  Our certainty does not originate from within ourselves, it originates from within the Church by which we have fellowship with the Holy Trinity.  If our weaknessess (an I am full of them) condemn us, we do not despair of our salvation and we do not denigrate the Promises of God to those who are being saved, for He will complete in us that which he has begun in us. 

To recognize oneself as the first/worst/chief of sinners is not question the certainty of our salvation, for it is God who saves us.  Rather it is to refuse to find our confidence within our works for our salvation.  Even my best efforts, and my purest attempts to love God or my neighbor are like an onion.  Each layer removed only reveals an onion, but each layer removed gets me closer to being onionless.

The 40th martyr was not sure of himself, he was sure of God.

john

[zoarthegleaner]

If we do not place Orthodoxy above everything worldly (and having a boyfriend is worldly, even if it is condoned) why should we expect anyone to respect Orthodoxy?   

I doubt my advice (and the request for advice was reiterated) will be followed, and I doubt that anyone would expect the boyfriend to respect Orthodoxy because  of following it, he would simply look for another girlfriend.  But the above question remains valid and practicable, though difficult to do emotionally.

The question seems to me then to be, what can I do to make my boyfriend respect Orthodoxy right now while he is my boyfriend.

You cannot convert a Pentecostal by reason, for in their reasoning they each are a Church unto themselves.  I was raised in a Pentecostal Holiness Church and had an atheist stepfather who required that I go to Church with my mother, and also sit and listen to his reasons for not believing in God.   But perhaps conversion is not the goal, but simply that the boyfriend would stop badgering for Pentecostalism.

The commandment is to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.  Having a boy or girlfriend from outside of the Orthodox Church may not be a civilly legally binding relationship, but who doubts that it is not an emotional one. 

As to the question about dropping your wife, some Saints did, and some people do.

John

[Heorhij]

The commandment is to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.

I am not sure whether it is a "commandment." I think it is an advice of an Apostle, not a "commandment."
 

As to the question about dropping your wife, some Saints did, and some people do.

It will be certainly considered a frivolous divorce on my part, and I will be excommunicated. (That is, even if I wanted to... which I don't.)

[HandmaidenofGod]

The commandment is to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.

I am not sure whether it is a "commandment." I think it is an advice of an Apostle, not a "commandment."
 

As to the question about dropping your wife, some Saints did, and some people do.

It will be certainly considered a frivolous divorce on my part, and I will be excommunicated. (That is, even if I wanted to... which I don't.)

Do not drop your wife Heorhij, rather, ask for the intercessions of St. Monica and follow her example.

[Alveus Lacuna]

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

[Heorhij]

Do not drop your wife Heorhij, rather, ask for the intercessions of St. Monica and follow her example.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

[Rosehip]

Do not drop your wife Heorhij, rather, ask for the intercessions of St. Monica and follow her example.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

It could be, but I always took from the NT that if one is single and already a Christian, then one must only marry a fellow Christian, but if a couple was not Christian when they married, and one later becomes a believer, then the believer is to remain true to his/her spouse. It comes as a huge shock for me to see divorce due to these circumstances being condoned on this forum; when I was living in Eastern Europe, this is one of the huge things the Orthodox Church was always accusing the Protestant sects of- breaking up families!

[Robb]

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Is this why many men who do not got o church say that they "send their wives for them"?

[zoarthegleaner]

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Is this why many men who do not got o church say that they "send their wives for them"?

Perhaps thats how Eve came to be discussing theology with a serpent. "Eve, be a Dear, I hear a serpent hissing at the gate, go decipher its meaning."


john

[HandmaidenofGod]

Do not drop your wife Heorhij, rather, ask for the intercessions of St. Monica and follow her example.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

Not quite.

In your case, you met your lovely wife prior to your conversion to Orthodoxy, so you were unaware of the Truth at the time of your marriage. You have since converted, and Glory to God, are part of the One, True, Holy Church. St. Paul tells us that in these cases, we should not leave our unbelieving spouse, but rather pray for them, and try to lead them to Christ by leading a Holy life.

Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

In the OP's case, they are already Orthodox but their boyfriend is not. It gets kind of tricky here because the person is a Christian, but they are not part of Christ's Holy Church. If he is going to be respectful of her faith, consent to be married in the Church and raise their children in the Church, and allow his wife and children to follow Orthodox fasting practices, hang icons in the home, etc., then that is fine. Heck, he may even convert years after they are married! (I have seen this happen.)

However, if he is going to be staunch in his position and be hostile to the OP's Orthodox faith, then she should reconsider her relationship with him.

In any case, the OP should be open to answering any questions he has about the faith, politely invite him to attend services with her, and have him speak with an Orthodox priest.

DON'T shove the Orthodox Church down his throat. Don't try to "argue" him into the Church. Live your faith, pray for him, and let God do the rest.

[HandmaidenofGod]

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Is this why many men who do not got o church say that they "send their wives for them"?

No, they are just being lame.

[Heorhij]

Do not drop your wife Heorhij, rather, ask for the intercessions of St. Monica and follow her example.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

Not quite.

In your case, you met your lovely wife prior to your conversion to Orthodoxy, so you were unaware of the Truth at the time of your marriage. You have since converted, and Glory to God, are part of the One, True, Holy Church. St. Paul tells us that in these cases, we should not leave our unbelieving spouse, but rather pray for them, and try to lead them to Christ by leading a Holy life.

Actually, she was a cradle Orthodox (baptized in infancy), and I was unbaptized. Later, I became baptized and chrismated and an Orthodox, and she began to evolve into a "conscientious objecter" (agnostic)

In the case of OP and her boyfriend, they both are Christians, he is just Heterodox. We have couples in our parish who have only one member who is Orthodox, the other being Episcopalian or Methodist. They met and married when the Orthodox one was already Orthodox.

[BoredMeeting]

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Is this why many men who do not got o church say that they "send their wives for them"?

No, they are just being lame.

Can't argue with that.

[DeeperFaith]

This may be moot by now, but I want to address something that I learned, the hard way. The VERY hard way.

If there are red flags before marriage, PLEASE examine and investigate those flags before marrying. Please. For your sake and the sake of any children produced in the marriage. Don't deceive yourself into thinking that it'll all be ok after the wedding. It won't. Seek counsel from those you trust about the red flags (whatever those are; be they religious red flags or something else), and pray for wisdom. And, while I know of stories of unbelieving (or in this case, different believing) spouses later converting, don't bank on that. It can happen, and praise God if it does, but it can also NOT happen.

Faith is a huge issue. It should be a huge issue. If the two parties considering marriage aren't on the same page with faith and how to live it, there are going to be problems that will permeate every aspect of life.

I'm neither pentecostal nor Orthodox, but from what I know of either, they are very very different in all aspects of the faith. Please, spare yourself future heartache and really examine whether this man is truly the man for you, to father your children, and grow old with. Because if you marry, and he becomes resentful or hostile to Orthodoxy, or, God forbid, leaves you over it, the pain and repercussions of divorce are far-reaching and long-lasting.

I say this to try to spare you pain.

[jnorm888]

i have finally found a church that does focus the majority of the service in english and i spoke to the priest who is young and would love to sit down with him and discuss.  i feel like maybe so much time has passed i dont even know if he would be open to the idea anymore.

Give him a few good books to read, c.d.'s, and mp3's to listen to. And pray for him. ......then wait a few months and see what happens.







ICXC NIKA

[rakovsky]

we have been dating for a good amount of time now and i know that his biggest issue is that we dont go to church together, i am not against going w him to a pentecostal church but i actually like my orthodox church but i know he doesnt get it.  they do most of the service in greek and they dont cater to those trying to find out about the church, yet i know if he could see what i see, he would understand.  he is also very knowledgeable on the bible and i cant go blow for blow w him since i dont know half the stuff he does in regards to the bible.

Maybe consider visiting an Orthodox church that uses half in English? Maybe some Greek churches have half English?

You sound very smart. Otherwise you will have to both learn church greek together, which can be a plus when reading the New Testament.

[ialmisry]

Do not drop your wife Heorhij, rather, ask for the intercessions of St. Monica and follow her example.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

No.  They shouldn't be having chiildren with a heterodox boyfriend (or an Orthodox one for that matter).