OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 04:02:57 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Third Oriental Orthodox Jurisdiction in India ?  (Read 2394 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« on: March 23, 2010, 02:19:08 PM »

In Dec 2007, the Autocephelous Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (also known as the Indian Orthodox Church) had ordained an expelled Syriac Monk as Bishop (Severious Gurgan) and installed him as the primate of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Europe. Even though this group SOC of Europe is considered as a schematic group by the Canonical Syriac Orthodox Church under Patriarch Ignatious Zakka I, the Indian Orthodox Church accepts this group as canonical and is in full communion with them.

Previous Post:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13828.msg202323.html#msg202323

To complicate things further, Bishop Severious Gurgan has now ordained an expelled Syriac Indian Monk as Bishop Barthelomos Joseph for the diocese of Angamaly in India. We should keep in mind that diocese of Angamaly already has two oriental orthodox bishops, one under the autocephalous Catholicose of the East and another under the Syriac Orthodox Church.

So the ordination of Barthelomos Joseph for Angamaly further complicates things. Since Bishop Severious Gurgan and by extension Bishop Barthelomos Joseph are in communion with the autocephalous Catholicose of the Indian Orthodox Church. It remains a question if the Catholicose will accept Barthelomos Joseph as the canonical Bishop of Angamaly. Or will he now side with the Syriac Orthodox Church and remove all communion with this schematic group.

One thing is clear, the installation of Bishop Barthelomos Joseph will only complicate the already complicated issue in India.  Hopefully there is a silver lining here. Now that the Catholicose has seen what Bishop Severious Gurgan is capable of, ordaining a Bishop within the jurisdiction of the Catholicose; he will now side with the Patriarch of Antioch and remove all communion he has established with this Monk expelled from the Syriac Orthodox Church for indiscipline.

Please pray for the Holy Church.

In Christ,
Mathew G M
Logged

NULL
kazakage
Nasrani
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 63



« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 09:29:28 PM »

One thing is clear, the installation of Bishop Barthelomos Joseph will only complicate the already complicated issue in India.  Hopefully there is a silver lining here. Now that the Catholicose has seen what Bishop Severious Gurgan is capable of, ordaining a Bishop within the jurisdiction of the Catholicose; he will now side with the Patriarch of Antioch and remove all communion he has established with this Monk expelled from the Syriac Orthodox Church for indiscipline.

...........
If that happens, then its good. But how is this ordination a threat to IOC? I mean, this is going to affect the Jacobites more...
Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 12:27:43 AM »

But how is this ordination a threat to IOC?
The Indian Orthodox position is that with the establishment of the Catholicate in 1912, the Malankara Church is autocephelous and only the Catholicose and Malankara Metropolitan can appoint Bishops to the various diocese in India. It is also the Indian Orthodox position that only candidates elected according to the provisions of the constitution passed by the Catholicose group in 1934 be ordained as Bishops.

In this case Bishop Bathelomos Joseph has been appointed as the Bishop of Angamaly by someone other than the Malankara Metropolitan and Catholicose. Also this person was not elected as per the 1934 constitution.

As far as the autonomous Malankara Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) Church under the Patriarch of Antioch is concerned, this ordination is not valid as this Syriac Indian Monk Joseph as well as the person who ordained him are both excommunicated persons. So it will not be a problem for them because they don’t see him as a Bishop as he is excommunicated.

The situation is different for the IOC. It was the IOC that ordained Bishop Severious Gurgan. IOC Catholicose has issued bulls (kalpanas) appointing Bishop Severious Gurgan as a Bishop. So an ordination conducted by that Bishop is valid as far as the IOC is concerned.  IOC will have to find out a way to deal with this Syriac Indian Bishop who claims to be in communion with the Catholicose but was not appointed by the Catholicose. Either the IOC will have to excommunicate him or will have to find a way to accommodate him.







« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 12:28:20 AM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
geovar
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Indian Orthodox Church
Posts: 56


« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 05:53:01 AM »

Please pray for the Church in India and this development won't hurt the Church further.
It is not men whom we fight, but the evil one who causes confusion and divisions. The Orthodox Church in India which has the Catholicose of the East as it's prelate and the Church which has the Syrian Orthodox Patriach as it's prelate is united in faith of the Orthodox Church.
Due to the need for the Church which has the roots of our faith from the disciple St. Thomas to develop in India with the grace of God and grow on it's own , the Catholicate was established in 1912 in India.
The position of the Syrian Orthodox Church and it's prelate has a place of honour within it because of the help given to this ancient Church from the fathers of Syrian Orthodox Church when it adversly had to face the wrath of Roman Catholicism in 17th Century and the Patriach of the Syrian Orthodox Church who blessed the occasion of establishment of the Catholicate
Since the time of the position of the Syrian Orthodox Patriach  given as honour in the constitution of the Catholicate, the evil one causes confusion to propogate that the Orthodox Church in India and the Catholicate is a division and a group within the Syrian Orthodox Patriachate and if one doesn't accept it he or she is a heretic. Also within the Catholicate the evil one cause many to forget our common Orthodox Christian faith and the help from Syrian Orthodox Church and propogate only the wrongs of the Syrian Church.



 


Logged
surajiype
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Orthodox Church
Posts: 196


« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 01:33:39 AM »

Well if you can have a second jurisdiction, why not a third ?  I mean why shed tears for division when we ourselves create it.

I know too much about the negotiations between the two parties in India at each stage and most recently after 1995 and 2001, to believe that division exists today because of conviction.  A second jurisdiction itself in one place is uncanonical, then why not a third or a fourth?

Division exists because nobody wants reconciliation, it involves sacrifice.  I mean how can you have 50 bishops in the two juridictions if unity happens?   
Spinning yarns and tales and creating false canons , synodal documents, bulls of excommunication etc is much easier.  Frankly much as I dislike what HG Severios has done; I dont think it is any different from what the Sucessor to Peter in Damascus have done since the 1970's. 

The moment two jacobite priests joined HG Severios , I knew what was going to happen next.  One of the priests has been made bishop ( today various Jacobite media is calling him excommunicated; I dont know if that was really the case).
If these priests were interested in unity and being in the Church, they should have approached the Malankara Orthodox synod , had their case examined and accepted in humility what the Synod ordered.
 Except in the minds of some people, the Catholicos and the Synod have a legally accepted right of jurisdiction in India and over the Malankara Church.  But these priests for whatever reason felt it better to join a Independant Syrian Church, perhaps because their head would be an ethnic Syrian.

I wrote to HG Severios some weeks earlier asking him to refrain from actions which will complicate the situation further. The bishop wrote back telling me he would do what he could to help the salvation of us all, and that it was not his intention to confuse people further.

Let God be the judge of each mans conscience. 

I could be wrong, but except opening a door of opportunity to a few jackals, this will have no impact.  Things have to get worse, before they get better, I think we are starting down that road now. 

Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2010, 11:59:24 AM »

Hopefully there is a silver lining here. Now that the Catholicose has seen what Bishop Severious Gurgan is capable of, ordaining a Bishop within the jurisdiction of the Catholicose; he will now side with the Patriarch of Antioch and remove all communion he has established with this Monk expelled from the Syriac Orthodox Church for indiscipline.

What I was hoping has come true. Having realized the what Mr. Gurgan, the excommunicated Monk from the Syriac church for indicipline , can show indicipline and be rebellious to the Catholicose of the autocephelos Malankara Orthodox Church also, he has with drawn all communion he has established with Mr Gurgan (who was ordained by two Bishops of the Malankara Orthodox Church as Bishop Severious Gurgan).  Below is a copy of the letter :
Page 1:  http://tinyurl.com/yf8aw2n
Page 2: http://tinyurl.com/yglfnc3


Logged

NULL
surajiype
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Orthodox Church
Posts: 196


« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 12:05:32 AM »

A positive development no doubt. 
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,178


WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 01:12:47 AM »

Lord have Mercy.
Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 03:08:16 PM »

Mr Gurgan has done it again. He has ordained Fr. Fr. C.G. Mathews of St.Jude  Monastery of the Indian Orthodox Church (autocephalous Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church) as Mathews Mar Gregorios Bishop of Kottayam & South Kerala and Fr. Yuhanon Ramban of the Mor Elias Monastery of the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church (autonomous jurisdiction under the Patriarch of Antioch) as Yuhanon Mar Thimothios Bishop of  Idukki & North Kerala.

The ordination was done in secret in a Lutheran Church in New Delhi on June 17th.

He had earlier ordained one Mar Barthelomous as the Bishop of Angamaly and Central Kerala as referred in the post earlier.

Mr Gurgan who claims to be Mor Severious and the Primate of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Europe which he has recently renamed as the Antiochian Orthodox Church, was a monk in the Syriac Church and was expelled for indicipiline. He then approached the Indian Orthodox Church and the IOC ordained him as Mor Severious, helped him establish the Syriac Orthodox Church of Europe and established full communion with him. This ordination was never accepted as valid by the Syriac Orthodox Church. Later on when Mr Gurgan (aka Mor Severious) started meddling in the affairs of India and started ordaining Bishops for India, the Indian Orthodox Church has also realized the indiscipline of Mr Gurgan and revoked the communion it had established with Mr. Gurgan.

Below is a photo of this group, with Mr Gurgan (aka Mor Severious) in the middle and the three non-canonical Bishops he has ordained for India around him. Please be aware that this group is not canonical and is not accepted by either oriental orthodox jurisdiction in India.


For those in the US, Mr.Gurgan has also ordained one Mar Cassanius for the USA. He was never a part of any oriental orthodox church and was part of some kind of vagantes group.


These ordinations complicate the already complicated situation in India. Lets pray that the Lord will use this to bring about reconciliation between the two canonical oriental jurisdictions in India.

Mathew


« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 03:17:30 PM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
surajiype
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Orthodox Church
Posts: 196


« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2010, 01:49:46 AM »


I think it is also important for everbody to know that 1 of these "bishops"  CG Mathews was long under the censure of suspension by the hierarchy of the Malankara Orthodox Church (Indian Orthodox Church is just aka name).  He had been restrianed from performing sacramental acts ; which he had flouted by building a church with his own money and arguing that no body can stop me from performing the Qurbana in my own church.   He was currently in bail (bond) in a criminal case filed against him for cheating by somebody whom he did not pay for works done. 

This priest had been sent to teach at the Holy Trinity Seminary of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and had been called back after a scandal.  Since that time, he had been basically independant.  I have always argued that suspension is only a preliminary disciplinary act and in such cases where priests continue to blatantly disregard their proper canonical authorities, deposition or excommunication must follow as per the canons.  Deposition in this case was long overdue, which has been  basically proved now. 

He called his church the Monastery of St Jude and as far as I know he was its only inmate.  St Jude is not a monastic institution of the Canonical Church in India.  It is CG Mathews's personal monastery. 

I am saying this because Mathew called St Jude a monastery of the MOC (it is not), also Monk Yuhanon is monk (I think) not of the Monastery of Mar Elias but of the Patriarchal monastery of Mar Ignatius (where HH Ignatius Elias III of eternal memory is entombed) and where Patriarch Ignatius Yaqub III had stayed for a long time.

There is a silver lining in all this ,I am happy that these wolves who have been in sheeps clothing all this while have now bared their teeth.  Good riddance of bad rubbish.

Lord have mercy on their souls.
Logged
surajiype
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Orthodox Church
Posts: 196


« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2010, 06:03:47 AM »

I hate to make this a Orthodox v/s jacobite thing, particularly since I dont think it benefits either the Indians or the wider Orthodox world itself.

Today we say this fellow was an Orthodox guy, that one was Jacobite and  we use it subtly to beat each other over the head.  Are we really fooling anybody when we do that.

Today there are photos online showing one of these priests CG Mathews associating in function organized by the Jacobite church in India, even speaking and lecturing at a function organized under the auspices of Mar Coorilose the Jacobite bishop of Niranam and WCC moderator. 

That function was organized by the Mar Behnam Study circle primarily as a initiative for Jacobite youth.  So Rev CG Mathews inspite of his long history was good enough to lecture youth . I suppose it is a - my enemies enemy is my friend sort of thing. 

Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 10:21:44 AM »

Today there are photos online showing one of these priests CG Mathews associating in function organized by the Jacobite church in India, even speaking and lecturing at a function organized under the auspices of Mar Coorilose the Jacobite bishop of Niranam and WCC moderator.  

That function was organized by the Mar Behnam Study circle primarily as a initiative for Jacobite youth.  So Rev CG Mathews inspite of his long history was good enough to lecture youth . I suppose it is a - my enemies enemy is my friend sort of thing.  

Suraj,
What is your point? I don't see what is the point you are trying to make. The story is short. - An expelled Syriac Monk was ordained by two Indian Orthodox Bishops in secret as a Bishop. The intention of why this ordination was done, is still not known. It is not my job to question or judge, especially two hierarchs who did the ordination or the synod which extended support. What ever it is, later on the IOC synod realized the mistake and the communion was withdrawn. End of story. What ever may have been the intentions at first, the final step is right. Some actually make wild claims about a grand scheme to enthone this new Bishop as a rival Patriarch of Antioch in the future etc.. But I dont pay much attentions to such wild aquisitions. I wait till the facts occur. I can't speculate the intentions of the heart of another person.

- Now this new Bishop is conducting ordinations in India. This group is not considered canonical by either side. End of story. I wanted to post the story here so that our sister orthodox christians are aware that this group is not a canonical group.

I dont understand the reason or purpose or the point of somethings you have made above. If you care to exapnd on what is the point you are trying to make that would be great. I am surprised and rather disappointed to see those comments coming from you.

Please realize we are not enemies,  we are brothers who share the same faith, just having a difference of opinion on church administration.

Mathew.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 10:27:39 AM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
surajiype
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Malankara Orthodox Church
Posts: 196


« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 06:43:43 AM »

Mathew,

Good to hear at least somebody saying that we are brothers in faith, believe me I have had worse said to my face.
Please also note that when a frank exchange of views take place , it is not anything personal. You still have my best regards.

My point is this, we have been seeing this spectacle of a barrage of news sites trying to say this priest was secretary of so- and so , was of so & so church and has now joined this new church of Severios. 
Both my people and yours have played this game. Everybody knows how close CG Mathews was to the MOC , yet today a lot of people try to show that CG Mathews was Orthodox and "defected".  It is some sort of shadow boxing.  When somebody says that St Jude was a monastery of the MOC, how am I to perceive it ? St Jude was the personal monastery of someone who was in suspension from the MOC. Is there not a difference?  Yuhanon Achen was the personal secretary of Mar Binyamin Osthatheos, had I brought it up , you would have percieved rightly that I was just using this factual information to tarnish the Jacobite church by association.

That is the explanation for my response.

Fact is one of your priests defected, one suspended priest from my side defected and one priest who was Jacobite , then was in touch with one of my Bishops for some time and who was possibly under censure from you also defected.  This is the information I have. 

Do you think Rev CG Mathews was called to Mar Behnam conference because of the depth of his spirituality?   Do you think he had anything good to say when he lectured?  How many serving Orthodox priests are called to lecture in Jacobite churches or to address Mar Behanam study circle?  So today when we say that this "Orthodox" priest defected should we not also accept that this priest was also in touch with us.   Yesterday somewhere it was written Mattathil Ramban was all in all of Mar Makariose, if someone can mention that precious nugget of information then why not also say that CG Mathews achen was in our good books also. 

We, you and me included and all our great fighters for our factions are poisoning ourselves and our children with this sort of thing.  This dispute is not resolved because of the hardness of our hearts (our only argument is over whether your factions heart is harder than mine)

These guys who defected are like hyenas, what they could not get through the straight way they take in another way.
As I said, God has a way , perhaps he is even acting through this sort of people. Like I said earlier things will get worse before they get better.

Regarding the ordination of Severios, I think we, atleast a very large section of the Church in India have a very poor opinion of the way discipline is meted out by the Patriarch of Antioch.  I know you may not like it, but let it be on the table.

Do you think people like Mar Augen Kaplan are entirely innocent, do you think Cor Episcopa Tarzi deserved to be treated the way he was?   Is everything so black and white ?
Severios was ordained in certain circumstances, in my post on a open forum , I laid out what I know.  I did not defend it then nor do I defend it now.  My argument was always that it was done in a way that was not in keeping with the traditions of the Church in India. 

From the letter of Severios you know that His Beatitude the Met of Kunnamkulam was not replying to any of his letters for a year .  And at the first available opportunity available all relations were broken.  Did this Severios visit ever any MOC churches in Europe even in the time , when we were officially in communion?
If the primate of the Independant church of Europe was not allowed to visit or invited to our churches in Europe, what depth of communion was there anyway.

If we start this we will never stop.  I dont doubt for a single second that unity will eventually occur , the hows and why's are not known to us at that time. I knew a Jacobite priest who always used to say regarding this dispute that the truth will triumph.  I am seconding his prayer, not my will or your will or my argument or your's, let truth shine forth one day.  And let it found that atleast some of us have gathered under that banner. 
Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 01:54:58 PM »

Deleted...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 02:28:58 PM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
Tags: schism Indian Orthodox 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.087 seconds with 40 queries.