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Author Topic: 1 Million Austrians May Leave Catholic Church  (Read 2186 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 20, 2010, 03:38:47 PM »

From BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8578193.stm
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 03:39:06 PM by bkovacs » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 04:12:28 AM »

I'm aware this is old but I noticed something in the video that has been coming to my attention lately.

There are those who claim, as in the video, that celibacy causes paedophile priests. What "bugs" me is the section of society that claims that, also claims all sexuality is innate and unchangeable, and they use that same argumentation to justify their own sexual choices.

Either it doesn't change and people should be free to be celibate without being demonized, or it can change and they need to stop claiming it does not. They are hypocrites if they continue claiming sexual orientation cannot change unless you just happen to be their favourite enemy, in which case being a celibate for the sake of God will turn you into the vilest of monsters. And of course this only applies if you are a Christian, Buddhist monks and Hare Krishna priests are expected to be just as celibate as a Catholic priest (and in the case of Hare Krishna laity they almost are!) is and no one ever makes the same claim of them.

Sorry for zombie-ing this thread.
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 02:54:29 PM »

I'm aware this is old but I noticed something in the video that has been coming to my attention lately.

There are those who claim, as in the video, that celibacy causes paedophile priests. What "bugs" me is the section of society that claims that, also claims all sexuality is innate and unchangeable, and they use that same argumentation to justify their own sexual choices.

Either it doesn't change and people should be free to be celibate without being demonized, or it can change and they need to stop claiming it does not. They are hypocrites if they continue claiming sexual orientation cannot change unless you just happen to be their favourite enemy, in which case being a celibate for the sake of God will turn you into the vilest of monsters. And of course this only applies if you are a Christian, Buddhist monks and Hare Krishna priests are expected to be just as celibate as a Catholic priest (and in the case of Hare Krishna laity they almost are!) is and no one ever makes the same claim of them.

Sorry for zombie-ing this thread.
There are plenty of priests who have sexual relationships with women on the side - it just doesn't get published because those relationships aren't criminal and therefore aren't brought to light.

I'm not saying it's right, but if celibacy were too hard for a person and they were going to go into sexual sin, they're probably more likely to have sex with a woman their own age rather than go after adolescent boys.

The adolescent boys thing probably is a pre-condition, and not caused by the celibacy. Hell, I'm celibate, and I've never been attracted to adolescent boys - but I've definitely been tempted to enter into sexual sin with young women.
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 04:27:07 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 04:34:06 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 04:36:05 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?
Yup. That's why if a man can't control himself, he needs to not become a Catholic priest.
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 04:39:36 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?
Yup. That's why if a man can't control himself, he needs to not become a Catholic priest.

How many men do you think can control themselves? .00001%?  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2011, 04:46:26 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?
Yup. That's why if a man can't control himself, he needs to not become a Catholic priest.

How many men do you think can control themselves? .00001%?  Wink


According to the investigative work of Fr Andrew Greeley between 25% and 50% of the Catholic priesthood cannot control themselves.
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2011, 05:31:28 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?

But this is comparing apples with oranges.  The people in this report (and many besides) claim that celibacy causes the pedophilia/ephebophilia, which is patently absurd.  As noted, if an otherwise hetereosexual man wants to have sex with someone, it will most likely be with a woman, not with an adolescent or pre-pubescent boy.  Those who do the latter obviously have more problems than dealing with imposed clerical celibacy.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2011, 05:35:50 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?

But this is comparing apples with oranges.  The people in this report (and many besides) claim that celibacy causes the pedophilia/ephebophilia, which is patently absurd.  As noted, if an otherwise hetereosexual man wants to have sex with someone, it will most likely be with a woman, not with an adolescent or pre-pubescent boy.  Those who do the latter obviously have more problems than dealing with imposed clerical celibacy.
That is born out that pedophile priests under the Vatican number about 5%, i.e. the same as the general population, and the denomination with the lion's share of complaints of pedophilia (IIRC 30%) is one that does not have institutionalized celibacy, let alone imposed clerical celibacy.  By profession, teachers far surpass priests in the numbers of pedophilia cases.
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2011, 05:37:49 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?
Yup. That's why if a man can't control himself, he needs to not become a Catholic priest.
Rather, he should marry. The Vatican imposes the artificial ban on him becoming a Catholic priest.
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2011, 05:43:13 PM »

Hmm I didn't see anything in the article about 1 million Austrians leaving the church. I googled it and found an article that said 100k left the church in 2010. Am I missing something?
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 05:48:06 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?

But this is comparing apples with oranges. 

Fair enough. And I agree with your point (and that of others) about it not being correct to link the molestation of children with celibacy.
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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2011, 05:52:06 PM »

Hmm I didn't see anything in the article about 1 million Austrians leaving the church. I googled it and found an article that said 100k left the church in 2010. Am I missing something?

On the video clip, about half way through (starting at about 2:19), a female reporter said: "according to a recent opinion poll, up to one million Austrians say they are considering leaving the Church".
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2011, 05:56:47 PM »

Hmm I didn't see anything in the article about 1 million Austrians leaving the church. I googled it and found an article that said 100k left the church in 2010. Am I missing something?

On the video clip, about half way through (starting at about 2:19), a female reporter said: "according to a recent opinion poll, up to one million Austrians say they are considering leaving the Church".

Ah yes, audio is my friend...
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 04:28:11 PM »

^ I remember an ex-priest telling an old friend of mine that there were many priests who had had sex with women at some point during their priesthood. My friend's response was, "and???". It is not that she approves of priests fornicating, nor of them breaking their vows. However, why should we be surprised that priests sin? They have the same fallen nature as the rest of us.

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?
Yup. That's why if a man can't control himself, he needs to not become a Catholic priest.
Rather, he should marry. The Vatican imposes the artificial ban on him becoming a Catholic priest.
Until married men can become bishops in the Orthodox Church, you cannot in good conscience criticize our policy, unless you disagree with the aforementioned policy.
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 12:43:27 AM »

^Sure we can, because a married or unmarried episcopacy isn't the issue here. The fact is that a great many Catholic priests cannot live according to the dictates prescribed for them and that presents a great many problems, pastoral and otherwise.  I remember once a Jesuit priest at Creighton university told me that "we priests are single, not celibate."  OK and you think that squares with your vows how?
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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2011, 01:26:07 AM »

I'm aware this is old but I noticed something in the video that has been coming to my attention lately.

There are those who claim, as in the video, that celibacy causes paedophile priests. What "bugs" me is the section of society that claims that, also claims all sexuality is innate and unchangeable, and they use that same argumentation to justify their own sexual choices.

Either it doesn't change and people should be free to be celibate without being demonized, or it can change and they need to stop claiming it does not. They are hypocrites if they continue claiming sexual orientation cannot change unless you just happen to be their favourite enemy, in which case being a celibate for the sake of God will turn you into the vilest of monsters. And of course this only applies if you are a Christian, Buddhist monks and Hare Krishna priests are expected to be just as celibate as a Catholic priest (and in the case of Hare Krishna laity they almost are!) is and no one ever makes the same claim of them.

Sorry for zombie-ing this thread.

Very few Buddhist Priests are required to be celibate. All the ones I have known were married excpet for a Korean Zen Master whose order requires celebacy.

There have been big pedophilia scandals within the Hare Krishna sect....  I am not saying celibacy is the cause.. Just an FYI
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2011, 02:59:04 AM »

Here's the thing, does not St. Paul say that it is better to marry than to burn with passion? And would it not then be even more true that it is better to marry than to fornicate (possibly with parishioners)?

But this is comparing apples with oranges.  The people in this report (and many besides) claim that celibacy causes the pedophilia/ephebophilia, which is patently absurd.  As noted, if an otherwise hetereosexual man wants to have sex with someone, it will most likely be with a woman, not with an adolescent or pre-pubescent boy.  Those who do the latter obviously have more problems than dealing with imposed clerical celibacy.

I'm with Schulz.  I was also celibate for most of the first forty-five years of my life, before I married.  Being celibate is *hard*, but it didn't have the effect of making me want anything different than I do now.  It just meant that I needed to cope with not getting at least some of what I wanted.  Being married makes some of that easier, but honestly not that much easier.  In the Orthodox Church, we are celibrate part of the year anyway, and guess what?  You end up wanting what you can't have even if it's for a day, or a few weeks during lent.  I bet the Catholics and Copts that participate here can testify to the same thing. (wry grin)

Celibacy doesn't cause anybody to want sex with children or very young adolescents.   If they do, something else is wrong -- something that would plague them whether they were celibate or not.  I'm a survivor of childhood sex abuse, and my molester/attacker was a married man.  The majority of child sex abusers on record have been married men.  I don't believe that married, heterosexual men are particularly prone to being pedophiles -- just that those who are prone to pedophilia or other aberrant sexuality often try to sublimate it or hide it by getting married.  Within the Roman Catholic Church, they've also had a huge, now public, problem with those who have something to hide becoming priests and then acting out their pathology.  We've seen a certain degree of that in the Orthodox Church as well.

The lesson I took from this whole sick, sad, sorry mess is that hiding sin is a bad idea, whether it's somebody fighting to control urges to pedophilia, or a church heirarchy trying to protect its reputation by hiding the sins of its priests. :/
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2011, 03:07:13 AM »

Very few Buddhist Priests are required to be celibate. All the ones I have known were married excpet for a Korean Zen Master whose order requires celebacy.

Well, that is perhaps true of some Mahayana monks but in Theravada it is not.  If you are not married, you are supposed to be celibate. For monks it is as about as clear as it can be, you're not even supposed to touch any woman at all for any reason, not even a female relative. This goes as far as women cannot hand anything to a monk, they lay it down for them to pick up.

Quote
There have been big pedophilia scandals within the Hare Krishna sect....  I am not saying celibacy is the cause.. Just an FYI

Which just reinforces the perception that there seems to be a  "narrative" of sorts. Demonize Christians and ignore what anyone else does.
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2011, 03:20:48 AM »

Also you said Buddhist priests and most forms of Buddhism do not have priests. There are monks, and both the Mahayana and Theravada vinaya says they are supposed to be celibate. The very first parajika (defeat) calling for expulsion is any kind of sexual activity.
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2011, 02:28:40 PM »

The lesson I took from this whole sick, sad, sorry mess is that hiding sin is a bad idea, whether it's somebody fighting to control urges to pedophilia, or a church heirarchy trying to protect its reputation by hiding the sins of its priests. :/


YES!!  Best lesson of all...and I pray to God we've learned for a good long time to come.

Also I must say that your life supports my contention that I know many priests who remain virginal and are good and holy men who have gained a higher degree of custody of the senses, heart and mind for their sacrifices.  It can be done...with grace.

To you I say, blessings for your good example!!

M.
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2011, 04:33:45 PM »

Rather, he should marry. The Vatican imposes the artificial ban on him becoming a Catholic priest.

Perhaps the same could be said of your OCA archbishop up in Canada.

The "ban" on married priests is no more "artificial" than the ban on married bishops.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 04:37:33 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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