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Offline Robb

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Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« on: March 17, 2010, 02:19:58 AM »
Can anyone tell me how many Old Calendarist are there in Greece?  Since the introduction of the new calendar, has the number of Greek Old Calendarist grown or declined? 
Also, of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions in Greece, which is the largest one?

Thank you for any help here.  I have always been interested in this subject (history of Greek Old Calendarist) but do not know where to look for information on the subject.

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Offline CCTE

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2010, 04:15:52 AM »
A romanian old calendarist said that there are 18 ,,synods"
The largest is the ,,Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece" under Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Church_of_the_Genuine_Orthodox_Christians_of_Greece
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 04:19:13 AM by CCTE »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2010, 09:45:30 AM »
I'm wondering if Fr. Anastasios or another Old Calendarist can help me here. I visited the website of the St. John the Forerunner parish of the GOCA in Illinois ( http://www.holyforerunnergoc.net/ ), and there are some really wonderful recordings of byzantine chant that play there (click "Enter Site" and you will hear them). I'm wondering if anyone knows where these recordings come from, where they can be purchased, etc.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 10:55:24 AM »
There exists old and new calendarists that are in communion. Groups that aren't in communion with world Orthodoxy as they call it would like to be differentiated by being called True Orthodox rather than old calendarists. There numbers are small in Greece. I think they have more popularity here in the states.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 10:59:14 AM »
I'm wondering if Fr. Anastasios or another Old Calendarist can help me here. I visited the website of the St. John the Forerunner parish of the GOCA in Illinois ( http://www.holyforerunnergoc.net/ ), and there are some really wonderful recordings of byzantine chant that play there (click "Enter Site" and you will hear them). I'm wondering if anyone knows where these recordings come from, where they can be purchased, etc.

FYI: I tried to link to that site and AVG advised that there was a virus threat there.

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 11:20:49 AM »
Can anyone tell me how many Old Calendarist are there in Greece?  Since the introduction of the new calendar, has the number of Greek Old Calendarist grown or declined? 
Also, of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions in Greece, which is the largest one?

Thank you for any help here.  I have always been interested in this subject (history of Greek Old Calendarist) but do not know where to look for information on the subject.



From the statistics I have read in our own publications, at the time of the Calendar change, about 25% of the population of Greece rejected it, and formed about 800 communities around Greece.  Over time, the number of Old Calendarists has shrunk (as well as the number of anyone going to Church in Greece) such that now there are probably about 200,000 people that might attend Old Calendarist Churches in Greece with some regularity.  We have about 200 institutions (parishes/monasteries/missions) that I am aware of. That is a rough number.  Some of the communities do not have their own priest.



A romanian old calendarist said that there are 18 ,,synods"
The largest is the ,,Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece" under Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Church_of_the_Genuine_Orthodox_Christians_of_Greece


Yeah, you'll hear 4, 5, 6, 18, 25, 30, etc.  It's a little absurd.  There are 4 or 5 Synods that one might call "Tier 1" Old Calendarists: real bishops, real priests, real churches, real congregations.  There are many "Tier 2" groups or independent bishops running around who have been deposed or what not.  To include all those together as the same class and number even one deposed bishop doing his own thing as a Synod is a common tactic meant to denegrade us, but anyone that actually does some research sees how silly the claim is.  Out of all the Old Calendarists in Greece, my Synod, that of Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis), is the largest, and has probably 70% if not 80% of all the Old Calendarists in Greece.  When one sees that, and sees the history of the Synod, it becomes pretty clear we are dealing with a lot less division and confusion than is commonly portrayed.  As for the other "Tier 1" groups, I would include in them the Synod in Resistance under Metropolitan Cyprian, the Matthewite Synod under Archbishop Nicholas (which is very small), and the group under Archbishop Makarios (which broke from us in 1995, and later fractured, two of the most notorious bishops joining the EP in 1998--coincidently, after those two characters were gone, we've been in a state of relative peace since 1995).



I'm wondering if Fr. Anastasios or another Old Calendarist can help me here. I visited the website of the St. John the Forerunner parish of the GOCA in Illinois ( http://www.holyforerunnergoc.net/ ), and there are some really wonderful recordings of byzantine chant that play there (click "Enter Site" and you will hear them). I'm wondering if anyone knows where these recordings come from, where they can be purchased, etc.

Some of the recordings are from Makris's Christmas album.  The others I don't know. I can ask if you want. My nouno runs that site.


There exists old and new calendarists that are in communion. Groups that aren't in communion with world Orthodoxy as they call it would like to be differentiated by being called True Orthodox rather than old calendarists. There numbers are small in Greece. I think they have more popularity here in the states.

There are no Old Calendarists that are "in communion" [presumably with the EP, you mean].  There are, however, people on the Old Calendar under the EP.  There were two bishops, mentioned above, who joined the EP in 1998, but they are no longer on the Old Calendar.

With respect, I have to say I think you are mistaken about Greece vs. America.  We have 200 institutions in our Synod alone in Greece; we have 9 parishes, 7 missions, and 2 functioning monasteries in the US and Canada in our Synod.  So statistically, in Greece, our Synod (not counting the others) might be 2 or 3% of the population [I am not sure how it stacks up against active people going to Church, since the numbers across the board are low; I would imagine that Old Calendarists are more active in Church than New Calendarists for the simple fact that someone that was not serious about our Church would likely just become a New Calendar person anyway to go with the flow] but in America it's infintesimally smaller.


I'm wondering if Fr. Anastasios or another Old Calendarist can help me here. I visited the website of the St. John the Forerunner parish of the GOCA in Illinois ( http://www.holyforerunnergoc.net/ ), and there are some really wonderful recordings of byzantine chant that play there (click "Enter Site" and you will hear them). I'm wondering if anyone knows where these recordings come from, where they can be purchased, etc.

FYI: I tried to link to that site and AVG advised that there was a virus threat there.

Well, people get virus threats from this site sometimes too; it's often a false report based on links.  But I will speak to my nouno about it. Could you PM me the exact warning you received?

I will be happy to keep answering any inforrmational questions, but I am uninterested in engaging in polemics, so if this thread turns in to an attack from either side on the other, you can bet I will disappear from it. Just an advisement.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 12:37:09 PM »
From the statistics I have read in our own publications, at the time of the Calendar change, about 25% of the population of Greece rejected it, and formed about 800 communities around Greece.  Over time, the number of Old Calendarists has shrunk (as well as the number of anyone going to Church in Greece) such that now there are probably about 200,000 people that might attend Old Calendarist Churches in Greece with some regularity.  We have about 200 institutions (parishes/monasteries/missions) that I am aware of. That is a rough number.  Some of the communities do not have their own priest.

How many monastic communities does your Synod have total in Greece and abroad?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:37:38 PM by Andrew21091 »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 12:40:53 PM »
Some of the recordings are from Makris's Christmas album.  The others I don't know. I can ask if you want. My nouno runs that site.

Thanks! That would be great. Is it the Makris who conducts the Orthodox Ecclesiastical Byzantine Choir? It looks like their CD's are only available from Greece  :-[
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 12:52:20 PM »
Some of the recordings are from Makris's Christmas album.  The others I don't know. I can ask if you want. My nouno runs that site.

Thanks! That would be great. Is it the Makris who conducts the Orthodox Ecclesiastical Byzantine Choir? It looks like their CD's are only available from Greece  :-[

I believe so. HTM used to carry some of his CDs. You might email them info@thehtm.org and see if they have any.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 01:06:42 PM »
From the statistics I have read in our own publications, at the time of the Calendar change, about 25% of the population of Greece rejected it, and formed about 800 communities around Greece.  Over time, the number of Old Calendarists has shrunk (as well as the number of anyone going to Church in Greece) such that now there are probably about 200,000 people that might attend Old Calendarist Churches in Greece with some regularity.  We have about 200 institutions (parishes/monasteries/missions) that I am aware of. That is a rough number.  Some of the communities do not have their own priest.

How many monastic communities does your Synod have total in Greece and abroad?

I have posed your question to His Grace Bishop Photios, the Secretary of the Holy Synod. Should he respond in a timely manner, I will repost the information here for you.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 02:38:53 PM »
From the statistics I have read in our own publications, at the time of the Calendar change, about 25% of the population of Greece rejected it, and formed about 800 communities around Greece.  Over time, the number of Old Calendarists has shrunk (as well as the number of anyone going to Church in Greece) such that now there are probably about 200,000 people that might attend Old Calendarist Churches in Greece with some regularity.  We have about 200 institutions (parishes/monasteries/missions) that I am aware of. That is a rough number.  Some of the communities do not have their own priest.

How many monastic communities does your Synod have total in Greece and abroad?

I have posed your question to His Grace Bishop Photios, the Secretary of the Holy Synod. Should he respond in a timely manner, I will repost the information here for you.

Thanks Father!

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 04:28:37 PM »
Andrew,

We have have 79 monasteries in Greece. 15 are dormant (we have the property but no one lives there).  64 have at least one or two monastics. Obviously some of them have quite a lot more (such as Esphigmenou, which I believe has 105).

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 06:18:09 PM »
So Esphigmenou is officially affiliated with the GOC? For some reason I thought they were unaffiliated.
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 06:48:36 PM »
Are any of the Old Calenderist communities in communion with Moscow, or are they completely out of communion with the rest of "Worldwide Orthodoxy"? (I hope that doesn't come off as disrespectful, as that is not my intent.)
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 06:54:10 PM »
Are any of the Old Calenderist communities in communion with Moscow, or are they completely out of communion with the rest of "Worldwide Orthodoxy"? (I hope that doesn't come off as disrespectful, as that is not my intent.)

I think the closest they came was when the "Cyprianite" groups (Greek Synod in Resistance, Romanian and Bulgarian Old Calendarists) were in communion with ROCOR. These groups are "walled off" from "World Orthodoxy" but don't consider us as graceless yet.

 Since the reunion of ROCOR with Moscow, they are now connected with the Agafangel breakaways. There is actually an Agafangel parish very close to my home parish... I've often been curious about them, but a visit probably wouldn't be a good idea.
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Offline Robb

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 07:16:22 PM »
Thanks for the information.  How was the Greek Old Calendarist movement brought to America, through direct immigration of persecuted Old Calendarist to this country (I think I remember hearing about something like this within the Greek community of Astoria, NY).  Or was this growth due to already existing GOAA parishes going over to Old Calendarist jurisdictions?

The history of the Old Calendar movement in Greece sounds very similar to that of the Latin Mass movements in France and other West European countries in the 60's and 70's.  Many people in a particular religion tend to be against or resent changes in liturgy and doctrine when they occur.  There numbers also seem to decline as more and more people who were present before the changes took place die off and are replaced by either their posterity or by those who were converted afterwards, but were too young or not born before the changes took place.  I'm sure that their are many people in Greece who still sympathize with the principles of the Old Calendar movement, yet they never joined or even attended an Old Calendar parish in their lives (The same goes with the Latin Mass movement in Catholicism).
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 12:27:54 PM »
So Esphigmenou is officially affiliated with the GOC? For some reason I thought they were unaffiliated.

Publicly they commemorate all Orthodox bishops because Espigmenou is on the territory of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (which See the Esphigmenites view as vacant currently) but because one needs an antimension to celebrate liturgy, and a bishop to ordain priests, they are under the (temporary) pastoral care of His Beatitude Archbishop Chrysostomos II.  This is a document produced in 2002 by the Karyes Administration where they outline the charges against Esphigmenou from the point of view of the commeorators and the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/26026794/KARYES-3--16-December-2002-No-of-PROTOCOL-2342401-DECISION-The

On page 13, section (d):

Quote
d) They officiate in the Holy Monastery on an Antimens ...of Chrysostomos Kioussis (who is not in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate) offending directly the ecclesiastical order that holds for centuries and the internal order of Mount Athos, as the Mass is officiated by archpriests, who are in canonical communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 12:28:22 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 12:31:39 PM »
Are any of the Old Calenderist communities in communion with Moscow, or are they completely out of communion with the rest of "Worldwide Orthodoxy"? (I hope that doesn't come off as disrespectful, as that is not my intent.)

We have no communion with Moscow or the rest of "Worldwide Orthodoxy" because even among those still on the Old Calendar, all except Georgia are still members of the World Council of Churches and send delegates to various ecumenical meetings.  If such circumstances change, we would only be overjoyed, and would react accordingly (we are not intransigent nor are we Old Believers).

Your question was not disrespectful in the least, and I can only hope that my answers come across as respectful.

Fr Anastasios
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 12:34:19 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 12:43:46 PM »
Andrew,

We have have 79 monasteries in Greece. 15 are dormant (we have the property but no one lives there).  64 have at least one or two monastics. Obviously some of them have quite a lot more (such as Esphigmenou, which I believe has 105).

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios

Very interesting, thank you for the info Father.

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 12:48:13 PM »
Thanks for the information.  How was the Greek Old Calendarist movement brought to America, through direct immigration of persecuted Old Calendarist to this country (I think I remember hearing about something like this within the Greek community of Astoria, NY).  Or was this growth due to already existing GOAA parishes going over to Old Calendarist jurisdictions?

The question is complex and part of my thesis at seminary was on the topic, but there is so much more that needs to be researched; I only touched the tip.

In the 1910s-1920s, there were splits between the Royalists and Venizelists and there were actually competing priests and parishes affiliated with either political movement.  There were occasionally parishes under the Jerusalem Patriarchate until 1930, according to the information I read from JP sources once, but I no longer have access to that material as it was on a now-defunct website.  Originally there were parishes under Athens and under Constantinople, if I recall correctly, and then they were all put under Athens, only to have that switched to Constantinople in 1922 with the founding of the Greek Archdiocese (part of that was due to Patriarch Meletios).

There were also a lot of parishes that were simply independent; they got a priest from some village in Greece and he commemorated whomever; maybe the bishop from his village that let him go, for instance.  Naturally, when the Calendar Change was implemented in 1924, many parishes that were Royalists or independent were not keen on the idea and ignored it.

Eventually, opportunists such as Christopher Contageorge got themselves ordained by people like Bp Fan Noli, Bp Sophronios Beshara, etc., who were floating about independently themselves (the former ended up working out his canonical status).  Contageorge actually sued the GOA for defamation and won, and ended his life as the exarch of Alexandria (!).  Many others claim they were his successor, but that is doubtful.

As parishes were "reigned in," they switched to the New Calendar mostly.  However, there were independent parishes continuing on the Old Calendar.  The first parish actually started by Old Calendarists, for Old Calendarists, under real Old Calendarist bishops in the USA was St Spyridon's in Detroit which was founded in 1937 under Bp Germanos of the Cyclades.

Others came to America because of persecution; for instance our first bishop in America, Bp Petros of Astoria, came as a priest in 1951 because his family properties were confiscated and he had been imprisoned, and he had no livelihood.  He received an invitation from America and came.


Quote
The history of the Old Calendar movement in Greece sounds very similar to that of the Latin Mass movements in France and other West European countries in the 60's and 70's.  Many people in a particular religion tend to be against or resent changes in liturgy and doctrine when they occur.  There numbers also seem to decline as more and more people who were present before the changes took place die off and are replaced by either their posterity or by those who were converted afterwards, but were too young or not born before the changes took place.  I'm sure that their are many people in Greece who still sympathize with the principles of the Old Calendar movement, yet they never joined or even attended an Old Calendar parish in their lives (The same goes with the Latin Mass movement in Catholicism).

I would say that comparison is accurate to some extent, although I am not sure that the numbers are decreasing anymore. I think they decreased as people became generally irrelgious, but they are rather stable now.  We actually still build new Churches in Greece, for instance, and at least two of our bishops are former New Calendar members.  In America, we are growing, both through contact with Greek sympathizers who feel the "spark" to make the change, marriage, and converts coming in.  But it's certainly not a floodgate.

While we certainly believe we are the local Church of Greece, we also have hopes that the New Calendar Church will simply end ecumenism and switch back to the Old Calendar.  Then we could work things out.  It may seem a stretch, but it's happened numerous times in Church history.  So we try to be the best Orthodox Christians we can, living the faith as fully as possibly and as it was traditioned to us.  We pray for an end to divisions.

Fr Anastasios
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2010, 12:48:56 PM »
We have no communion with Moscow or the rest of "Worldwide Orthodoxy" because even among those still on the Old Calendar, all except Georgia are still members of the World Council of Churches and send delegates to various ecumenical meetings.

Not really relating to the topic but, didn't the Serbian Church pull out of the WCC? Or was that a different group they pulled out of?

Quote
If such circumstances change, we would only be overjoyed, and would react accordingly (we are not intransigent nor are we Old Believers).

God willing, they will one day soon!

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 01:20:36 PM »
  We pray for an end to divisions.

Fr Anastasios

Amen, Father Anastasios

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 09:25:15 PM »
The Georgian Church pulled out of the WCC, under heavy monastic pressure. In fact, they did it so quickly that even the anti-ecumenists were a bit shocked.

In the Serbian Church, as I understand it, there were very close to doing it. The Synod actually made a decision to withdraw, but, unfortunately, it was sabotaged at the last minute. You can read about it here: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/artemije_thess.aspx
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2010, 10:11:05 PM »
In the Serbian Church, as I understand it, there were very close to doing it. The Synod actually made a decision to withdraw, but, unfortunately, it was sabotaged at the last minute. You can read about it here: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/artemije_thess.aspx

Ah, that is indeed unfortunate.

Offline Robb

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 12:42:42 AM »
Thank you for this information. 

Are there any books available in English about the Greek Old Calendarist movement?
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Offline GregoryLA

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2010, 12:58:00 AM »
According to Wikipedia:

Quote
In 1998, plagued by moral and financial scandals, two bishops that had broken off from the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians in the United States were re-baptized and re-ordained by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and put under the leadership of the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S. (which uses the Gregorian Calendar). In exchange, their few priests that went with them were accepted as Orthodox priests, and their churches were allowed to maintain their use of the Julian calendar. Later these parishes were then forced to switch to the Gregorian Calendar.

Is this true that these Old Calendarist bishops were re-baptized?  That seems very bizarre too me.

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2010, 01:02:52 AM »
Wow!  I had no idea that the EP/mainline Church of Greece took the calendar issue so seriously to this degree?  I've talked to some GOAA priest before who seemed to be somewhat sympathetic to the Old Calendar position, but if this is the way that Old Calendarist are treated by mainstream GOC's, then I'm certainly going to be cautious about who I discusse this with from now on.
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2010, 04:08:45 AM »
Is the Calendar a doctrine worthy of calling those who don't follow it schismatics, or worse, heretics?

It's very disturbing to think that they could be the true Church.
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Offline ag_vn

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2010, 08:45:52 AM »
We have no communion with Moscow or the rest of "Worldwide Orthodoxy" because even among those still on the Old Calendar, all except Georgia are still members of the World Council of Churches and send delegates to various ecumenical meetings.

Not really relating to the topic but, didn't the Serbian Church pull out of the WCC? Or was that a different group they pulled out of?

The Bulgarian Patriarchate pulled out of the WCC in 1998 and didn't send delegations both in Ravenna and Cyprus last year.

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2010, 10:54:40 AM »
According to Wikipedia:

Quote
In 1998, plagued by moral and financial scandals, two bishops that had broken off from the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians in the United States were re-baptized and re-ordained by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and put under the leadership of the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S. (which uses the Gregorian Calendar). In exchange, their few priests that went with them were accepted as Orthodox priests, and their churches were allowed to maintain their use of the Julian calendar. Later these parishes were then forced to switch to the Gregorian Calendar.

Is this true that these Old Calendarist bishops were re-baptized?  That seems very bizarre too me.

They weren't rebaptized to my knowledge. I believe that Vikentios (a born Old Calendarist) was chrismated but I am not sure. What is more disturbing is that from the day their applications were accepted into the EP (c. Nov 1997) until when they were "reordained" they continued to serve in St Irene's in Astoria (as bishops). So basically, Pascha they served as bishops, then they hopped on a plane, went to Constantinople, were chrismated, reordained deacons one day, priests the next, bishops the next, and back in time to serve as bishops the next week in St Irene's.

This is in contrast to how the Church of Greece received the GOC bishops Polycarpos and Christophoros (they just were accepted as is) and the OCA's reception of Milan/Ukrainian-ordained Lazar Puhalo and Veniamin (as is; the OCA site even lists their ordination dates as the dates they were ordained by Milan/the KP, respectively).

My personal view is that they "tightened the screws" so that no Old Calendarist would say, "see, so-and-so got received as is, so we are valid!"  But really, any Old Calendarist that would be basing his legitimacy on what the people he himself is refraining from communion with think has a problem of conscience.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 12:18:24 AM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2010, 11:06:13 AM »
Is the Calendar a doctrine worthy of calling those who don't follow it schismatics, or worse, heretics?

While I have my opinions and positions which are well known, I am a proponent of putting all the facts up front and letting people make educated decisions. So here are two articles.

The following is a pretty thorough (albeit dated) article on the topic from a priest who was in the ROCOR at the time:
The Calendar Question.

There are several articles by New Calendarist/commemorating sources which are against us Old Calendarists which are pretty good reads (although naturally I think they don't prove their case). Here's one example:
Anti-Patristic: The Stance of the Zealot Old Calendarists

I hope you find your study of the issue enlightening, and don't despair at controversies in the Church; the golden age of patristic literature (St Basil the Great, etc.) was written at a time of great controversy, yet some of the greatest saints were produced!

Quote
It's very disturbing to think that they could be the true Church.

Why? We're normal people just like you. I must confess when I had little firsthand knowledge of Old Calendarists, and I started thinking they might be right, I was annoyed.  But then I met them and was surprised at how wrong I was in most cases.  I think prejudice on either side is totally unproductive.  It's one reason I keep participating on this site even though most people don't agree with me; I believe we need to force people to be in close proximity so that people feel a compulsion to resolve the issue, not ignore it.  I also simply like the people here, but that's not a very valid ecclesiological reason  :angel:
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2010, 11:12:54 AM »
Thank you for this information. 

Are there any books available in English about the Greek Old Calendarist movement?

Most histories of the Old Calendar are apologetic sources (which, I confess, I think is fine for its purpose).  Very few "scholarly" pieces exist. Usually, the methodology is to

1) Start off by showing how the NC was wrong
2) Show how pious the early Old Calendarists were and how impious the New Calendarists were
3) Set the stage for some watershed moment where something "went wrong" and the "movement" divided
4) Justify one's own group at the expense of the others

Our bishops in America never wanted to get involved in all that, although in Greek such works exist.  In English, the two most well-known works are:

The Struggle Against Ecumenism by HOCNA

and

The Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Greece by the Synod in Resistance.

Online, you can find various articles by Vladimir Moss (who is a member of my Synod, although some of his opinions expressed are his own and he is a committed polemicist [which is not necessarily wrong, but simply it needs to be stated]): http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/books/

Hope that helps.
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2010, 11:25:06 PM »
Is the Calendar a doctrine worthy of calling those who don't follow it schismatics, or worse, heretics?

While I have my opinions and positions which are well known, I am a proponent of putting all the facts up front and letting people make educated decisions. So here are two articles.

The following is a pretty thorough (albeit dated) article on the topic from a priest who was in the ROCOR at the time:
The Calendar Question.

There are several articles by New Calendarist/commemorating sources which are against us Old Calendarists which are pretty good reads (although naturally I think they don't prove their case). Here's one example:
Anti-Patristic: The Stance of the Zealot Old Calendarists

I hope you find your study of the issue enlightening, and don't despair at controversies in the Church; the golden age of patristic literature (St Basil the Great, etc.) was written at a time of great controversy, yet some of the greatest saints were produced!

Quote
It's very disturbing to think that they could be the true Church.

Why? We're normal people just like you. I must confess when I had little firsthand knowledge of Old Calendarists, and I started thinking they might be right, I was annoyed.  But then I met them and was surprised at how wrong I was in most cases.  I think prejudice on either side is totally unproductive.  It's one reason I keep participating on this site even though most people don't agree with me; I believe we need to force people to be in close proximity so that people feel a compulsion to resolve the issue, not ignore it.  I also simply like the people here, but that's not a very valid ecclesiological reason  :angel:

Forgive me for my vindictive tone!  ;D

I really just don't find reason for a split because of a calendar. Maybe perhaps if we change Pascha, that would be another thing.  :police:

Pax Christi
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Offline Robb

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2010, 11:27:19 PM »
Thank you Father for this information.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2010, 12:16:43 AM »


Forgive me for my vindictive tone!  ;D

You're forgiven ;)

Quote
I really just don't find reason for a split because of a calendar. Maybe perhaps if we change Pascha, that would be another thing.  :police:

If you consider the arguments on their own merits and are not convinced, that's one thing, but do be careful not to dismiss it without proper consideration because it "sounds" like a dumb reason to have a disruption of communion.  Pascha actually was changed in some locales; temporarily in most places (such as Romania in the late 1920s), permanently in Finland....the fact that there are three different calendars in our time is very saddening to me.

May these issues be resolved in our lifetime.
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2010, 12:54:54 AM »


Forgive me for my vindictive tone!  ;D

You're forgiven ;)

Quote
I really just don't find reason for a split because of a calendar. Maybe perhaps if we change Pascha, that would be another thing.  :police:

If you consider the arguments on their own merits and are not convinced, that's one thing, but do be careful not to dismiss it without proper consideration because it "sounds" like a dumb reason to have a disruption of communion.  Pascha actually was changed in some locales; temporarily in most places (such as Romania in the late 1920s), permanently in Finland....the fact that there are three different calendars in our time is very saddening to me.

May these issues be resolved in our lifetime.

Pascha's date is different in Finland?  :o Can you cite your sources Father? Thanks!
I'm a fan of the Julian Calendar BTW -- I just don't want to be in schism just because of it.
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2010, 01:11:40 AM »
Pascha's date is different in Finland?  :o Can you cite your sources Father? Thanks!
I'm a fan of the Julian Calendar BTW -- I just don't want to be in schism just because of it.

I don't want to barge into a conversation that has nothing to do with me or my Church, but look at the last paragraph of this article for the date of Easter in Finland:

http://en.allexperts.com/e/f/fi/finnish_orthodox_church.htm

I first heard of this some years ago from a Greek friend when we were discussing how the Armenians in the US do Easter at the same time as the Catholics.

Again, this is none of my business, but my understanding is that the Old Calendarist movement is about more than the calendar.  There are other things that they are concerned about, such as Ecumenism.  You may want to click on the tag below and review some of the past threads on this topic.


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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2010, 02:37:29 AM »
Its pretty well known that Finland celebrates Pascha on the Gregorian calendar at the same time as Rome and Protestants. I honestly don't know how they get away with it and still be in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. Doesn't make sense.

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2010, 05:40:15 AM »
Its pretty well known that Finland celebrates Pascha on the Gregorian calendar at the same time as Rome and Protestants. I honestly don't know how they get away with it and still be in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. Doesn't make sense.

I believe that a revert to the Old Julian would be best. But if the Bishops don't concede --- what the heck -- it doesn't really matter! It does not affect my faith at all.  :P
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2010, 12:00:08 PM »
Pascha's date is different in Finland?  :o Can you cite your sources Father? Thanks!

It's no great secret. But I first became aware of it when I studied with a Finnish seminarian.


Quote
I'm a fan of the Julian Calendar BTW -- I just don't want to be in schism just because of it.

While I think that Fr Basile Sakkas demonstrates clearly that the Julian Calendar is part of the Tradition of the Orthodox Church in the article I linked above, there is more to the story, such as ecumenism, etc. These issues have been debated ad nauseum here though, so frankly for my own sake (such discussions wipe me out) and for others I will probably need to avoid going down that route.

Hope you keep learning and enjoying what you learn about Orthodoxy. It certainly was an exciting time in my life.
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Offline GregoryLA

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2010, 06:30:03 PM »
What are the various positions of the various jurisdictions on the various old calendarist groups?  I assume they will...um... vary?  But seriously, are there some jurisdictions that are more sympathetic to the old calendarists than others? 

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2010, 07:01:49 PM »
What are the various positions of the various jurisdictions on the various old calendarist groups?  I assume they will...um... vary?  But seriously, are there some jurisdictions that are more sympathetic to the old calendarists than others? 

I assume that the various Churches on the old calenar would be somewhat more sympathetic to Greek (Bulgarian, Romanian) Old Calendar synods ( as long as the  does not deny the validity of those Churches mysteries.  Even still there are probably scores of individual bishops, priests, and lay people who are sympathetic to those Orthodox who are making an attempt to ressit the calendar change and perceived modernism that goes wit it.

Also, I am surprised that there has never been an Old Calendar movement amongst the Arab Orthodox under Antioch?  Maybe they have enough trouble and division with being under the thumb of Muslims to have ever worried about the calendar issue?  I would be interested in knowing what he response of most Arab Orthodox was when the Calendar change was made for them way back when?
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2010, 05:18:34 PM »
Also, I am surprised that there has never been an Old Calendar movement amongst the Arab Orthodox under Antioch?  Maybe they have enough trouble and division with being under the thumb of Muslims to have ever worried about the calendar issue?  I would be interested in knowing what he response of most Arab Orthodox was when the Calendar change was made for them way back when?

Apparently the Alexandrian Patriarchate resisted and condemned the New Calendar at first, but eventually capitulated.

I am really looking into this for the first time, and I have to say that I am pretty disturbed at what I am reading. I'm currently reading The Struggle Against Ecumenism. While I can't say I'll be driving to my nearest nave-in-a-basement, two member church to sign up, I have found many of the things in this book to be extremely enlightening. Everyone who hasn't must read this book:

http://www.thehtm.org/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=634&osCsid=063cdc22e36b855029991df5b7a95e0c

How many Greek Old Calendarist jurisdictions exist in North America, and how are they related to one another? The three I know about are these:

http://www.hocna.net/

http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/Etna.html

http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com/
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 05:19:15 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2010, 05:44:31 PM »
How many Greek Old Calendarist jurisdictions exist in North America, and how are they related to one another? The three I know about are these:

http://www.hocna.net/

http://www.synodinresistance.org/Administration_en/Etna.html

http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com/

I thought you said the book was tedious? ;)  I remember reading it and enjoying it, though I have strange taste so that doesn't mean anything. Regarding the groups you mentioned, Fr. Anastasios or another old calendarist could give you a more elaborate overview, but fwiw, here are my thoughts (and it's been 5+ years since I really investigated this, so I apologize if I misremember).

HOCNA was started when the abbot of Holy Transfiguration Monastery (Boston) fled ROCOR because he was going to be investigated in an ecclesiastical court. There were some serious allegations of molestation. I significant number of parishes (maybe 20 or 25?) went with HOCNA when they broke off, due to the idea that ROCOR had fallen to the heresy of ecumenism. HOCNA puts out some quality materials (including their Psalter, which everyone except me seems to like), but there is some question as to whether people should buy from them. The second link is to Metropolitan Cyprian's group, who are a more moderate old calendarist group, who are "walled off" from world Orthodoxy, and don't necessarily believe that the world Orthodox are in heresy. They were in communion with ROCOR at one point, but that eventually fell apart. The last link is to the GOC, who I think are the most legit of the old calendarist groups, and I'm not just saying that because Fr. Anastasios is in the GOC (even back 5-6 years ago, when I was thinking about going old calendarist, it was the GOC that I was thinking about). They were at one point in communion with ROCOR, and I believe received their bishops through ROCOR, but they haven't been in communion for quite a while now. There are a couple other jurisdictions in North America, such as Archbishop Gregory's group (the people who publish the Holy Apostles Convent stuff), but I'd recommend avoiding the others like the plague.
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Re: Number of Greek Old Calendarist
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2010, 05:58:18 PM »
Pascha's date is different in Finland?  :o

Unfortunately, yes. Finnish Orthodox Church uses Gregorian calendar. I'm hoping that some day EP cancels it's alleged permission to use it.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!