Author Topic: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe  (Read 4898 times)

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Offline NMHS

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Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« on: March 16, 2010, 10:24:08 PM »
I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile now.  What is the Orthodox viewpoint or is there a viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe?  Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  I'm just curious because I know what it is to venerate the virgin mary but I also see those that appear (assumption) to over venerate her, such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.  I am also from southern NM and this may play a significant role in this.  I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious.  Thanks,

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 10:47:10 PM »
I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile now.  What is the Orthodox viewpoint or is there a viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe? 

There really isn't one: nothing in the story contradicts Orthodoxy (opposed to Fatima and Lourdes), Juan Diego wasn't a communicant of the Orthodox Church, the bishop he saw wasn't Orthodox, the church on the spot wasn't consecrated as an Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church doesn't have the image.

That being said, I've seen her in Orthodox Churches (interestingly, in the narthex) and didn't see anything out of place with that.

Quote
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much? 

Yes.

Quote
I'm just curious because I know what it is to venerate the virgin mary but I also see those that appear (assumption) to over venerate her, such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.  I am also from southern NM and this may play a significant role in this.  I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious.  Thanks,

No problem.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 11:04:54 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much? 
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 11:18:43 PM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 11:28:35 PM »
Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
Very Cool. Was this in the Southwest where devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is wide spread?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 11:41:11 PM »
Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
Very Cool. Was this in the Southwest where devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is wide spread?

No, strangely enough, it was in New York, a few years ago!
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 11:47:33 PM »
Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us!
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Offline Cymbyz

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 12:59:43 AM »
Strangely enough, the icon of the Virgin of Guadalupe (if we are to believe the account of its origin) is the only acheiropoieton (Not Made with Hands) native to the New World.  I've heard secondhand that Abp. Dmitri (ret.) of the OCA has affirmed that it's a legitimate icon, from an Orthodox point of view.  And the account of its appearance (in classical Nahuatl) did much to preserve that language from total destruction along with the pagan Aztec literature.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 01:20:23 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox

at least not right away:
Quote
5,000 Indians Baptized Orthodox in Mexico
The conversation published below took place in early December 2009, during the visit of Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) to Russia to celebrate the 15th anniversary of the Moscow representation of the Orthodox Church in America, and is devoted to the activities of the Church in Latin America.

- When was the Mexican Exarchate established?

- The Mexican Exarchate exists since the early 1970's. At that time, the bishop of the Mexican National Old Catholic Jose Church, Jose (Cortes and Olmos), got in touch with our Church, and together with his community came to Orthodoxy. Because of his work, hundreds of Mexicans penetrated the Orthodox faith.

Recently, 5,000 Indians from 23 localities in the State of Veracruz were baptized Orthodox. However, such a huge mass of parishioners have only one priest. In the Mexican Exarchate there are in general very few clerics. All of them Mexicans, including the ruling bishop - Bishop Alejo (Pacheco-Vera).
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/12/5000-indians-baptized-orthodox-in.html
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 02:54:58 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
They say that on closer inspection, you can see the reflection of Juan Diego in the eyes of the image.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 02:56:10 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ignatius

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 08:51:57 AM »
Our family has a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe in our home. It is very beautiful.
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Offline NMHS

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 11:16:12 AM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.

Papist,  I have seen this question thrown out on discussion boards by people that are trolling or are being anti-??whatever, but I assure I am seeking truth and my question was asked in humilty.  

 I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious. Thanks,

This is why I included this statement in my original post.  Forgive me if you I stated it in a wrong manner.

I such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.   Thanks,

This is just an observation I have had over several years and I felt I needed to add the question to seek further clarification on this topic since I am not very knowledgdable in this particular area.  Maybe it wasn't a question to be added to the OP but nonetheless I didn't insert for any particular reason other than to seek truthfullness.

Thanks for all the post, I appreciate it! Caleb
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:20:48 AM by NMHS »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 07:00:10 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 07:14:07 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
The icon or image is from North America, not Central America.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 08:16:29 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.

Papist,  I have seen this question thrown out on discussion boards by people that are trolling or are being anti-??whatever, but I assure I am seeking truth and my question was asked in humilty.  

 I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious. Thanks,

This is why I included this statement in my original post.  Forgive me if you I stated it in a wrong manner.

I such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.   Thanks,

This is just an observation I have had over several years and I felt I needed to add the question to seek further clarification on this topic since I am not very knowledgdable in this particular area.  Maybe it wasn't a question to be added to the OP but nonetheless I didn't insert for any particular reason other than to seek truthfullness.

Thanks for all the post, I appreciate it! Caleb
I know that you are sincere in your questioning. I was only stating that perhaps those questions are not so productive because of their subjective nature. Just know that I know you are really trying to seek the truth.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline NMHS

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 11:18:21 PM »
Thanks!

Offline montalban

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2015, 08:42:20 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
The icon or image is from North America, not Central America.
Central America is in North America!
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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2015, 06:13:18 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.

I am inclined to agree.  Especially when one considers how horrific the Aztec religion was with the human sacrifices, more human sacrifice in the ritualistic Flower Wars, in which the Aztecs always won and the weakened captive civilizations of Southern Mexico always lost, and other evils.  Now, imagine if the Aztecs had retained their religion, and eventually overpowered the Spanish, which happened anyway but under Catholicism.  But the Aztecs were technologically impressive; Cortes and his party record Tenochitlan as being as impressive a city as they had seen.  So despite the accidental devastation of small pox, they could have recovered, and by the late 18th or early 29th century thrown off the Spanish yoke at the time the Spanish Empire was crumbling, perhaps aided by shortsighted Dutch merchants.  Then they might well have tried to revive the human sacrifices to thank the Gods, and perhaps they would have sought victims from elsewhere in the Americas, especially the former Spanish Empire, or even Europe.

This unpleasant alternate reality did not happen because of this one image, which was enough to smash Aztec paganism.  Only a substrate of it remained in unpleasant cultural events like The Day of the Dead, which were unfortunately eventually tolerated, and were largely the fault of dubious practices in the Roman faith (even outside of Mexico, All Souls Day celebrated according to the Tridentine rubrics can be rather morbid, with the empty coffin, and the pall, sometimes with an actual skull and crossbones decorating it; look at Fr. Z's blog at wdptrs.com/blog for an example he used last year and was rather proud of).  This substrate has unfortunately become a fertile breeding ground for fungal growths from spores ejected by the dyimg Aztec faith.  I would cite the cult of Samta Muerte, and the related religious rites, that have Amomg other things come to play a huge role in the so called Narco Culture of the drug gangs which have killed so many Mexicans just since 2008 and devastated tourism in Tijuana and other once popular destinations.

But the majority of !exicans are opposed to this, and have in my experience high moral standards.  And the reason for that is their devout Catholicism.  And the reason for that is Our Lady of Guadalupe.  Which by the way, is an entirely realistic depiction; it is not outside the realm of possibility to say the Theotokos looked like that.

Now, stylistically, it's not my favorite icon, but in terms of the beneficial effects it had, literally creating the Mexican nation of devout Catholics; people of indigenous and Spanish descent who eventually unified on the basis of faith, and eradicating the unsavory aspects of the Aztec nation, that being its religion and warlike nature, thus giving birth to Mexico, as we know it, it could well be my favorite culturally.  I love Mexico, pious Mexicans, the hardships they've endured and their deep piety.  There is a store in Tijuana, not one of the bartering places selling junk at negotiated prices, but rather a fixed price speciality shop, called a Hand Arts in English, where one may find the finest, most exquisite Mexican embroidery and lacework, in delicacy exceeding that of Europe.  Or there was assuming the drug war did not put them out of business.  And the Hotel Cesar, where I once dined, which features exquisite cuisine and where the first, and in my opinion best, Caesar salad is made, table side, using an ingredient illegal in the US: raw eggs.  But I had no indigestion.   And cities like Durango and Chihuahua have picturesque "downtowns" (the word hardly seems adequate) that look precisely like the most charming cities in Spain.  And all this beauty was made possible by this icon, which bridged the gap between two warring cultures and allowed for a third, new culture to arise like a mythical Phoenix from their ashes.   What Mexico needs now is another icon of the Virgin Mary of similiar miraculous origin, or another providential event, to end the drug wars and wipe out the residual, toxin-spewing remnants of Aztec religion which have become so intimately connected to the Narco Culture, something to call the gangs of Mexico and the corrupt politicians and police to repentance, so that the decent ordinary folk may live a normal life of piety.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 09:46:20 PM »
My wife is from Mexico and we have the Virgin of Guadalupe in our Home. In fact, our priest blessed the icon done on a clay roof shingle which we have displayed in our home.