Author Topic: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe  (Read 4555 times)

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Offline NMHS

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Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« on: March 16, 2010, 10:24:08 PM »
I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile now.  What is the Orthodox viewpoint or is there a viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe?  Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  I'm just curious because I know what it is to venerate the virgin mary but I also see those that appear (assumption) to over venerate her, such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.  I am also from southern NM and this may play a significant role in this.  I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious.  Thanks,

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 10:47:10 PM »
I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile now.  What is the Orthodox viewpoint or is there a viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe? 

There really isn't one: nothing in the story contradicts Orthodoxy (opposed to Fatima and Lourdes), Juan Diego wasn't a communicant of the Orthodox Church, the bishop he saw wasn't Orthodox, the church on the spot wasn't consecrated as an Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church doesn't have the image.

That being said, I've seen her in Orthodox Churches (interestingly, in the narthex) and didn't see anything out of place with that.

Quote
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much? 

Yes.

Quote
I'm just curious because I know what it is to venerate the virgin mary but I also see those that appear (assumption) to over venerate her, such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.  I am also from southern NM and this may play a significant role in this.  I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious.  Thanks,

No problem.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 11:04:54 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much? 
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 11:18:43 PM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 11:28:35 PM »
Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
Very Cool. Was this in the Southwest where devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is wide spread?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 11:41:11 PM »
Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
Very Cool. Was this in the Southwest where devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is wide spread?

No, strangely enough, it was in New York, a few years ago!
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 11:47:33 PM »
Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us!
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Offline Cymbyz

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 12:59:43 AM »
Strangely enough, the icon of the Virgin of Guadalupe (if we are to believe the account of its origin) is the only acheiropoieton (Not Made with Hands) native to the New World.  I've heard secondhand that Abp. Dmitri (ret.) of the OCA has affirmed that it's a legitimate icon, from an Orthodox point of view.  And the account of its appearance (in classical Nahuatl) did much to preserve that language from total destruction along with the pagan Aztec literature.
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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 01:20:23 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox

at least not right away:
Quote
5,000 Indians Baptized Orthodox in Mexico
The conversation published below took place in early December 2009, during the visit of Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) to Russia to celebrate the 15th anniversary of the Moscow representation of the Orthodox Church in America, and is devoted to the activities of the Church in Latin America.

- When was the Mexican Exarchate established?

- The Mexican Exarchate exists since the early 1970's. At that time, the bishop of the Mexican National Old Catholic Jose Church, Jose (Cortes and Olmos), got in touch with our Church, and together with his community came to Orthodoxy. Because of his work, hundreds of Mexicans penetrated the Orthodox faith.

Recently, 5,000 Indians from 23 localities in the State of Veracruz were baptized Orthodox. However, such a huge mass of parishioners have only one priest. In the Mexican Exarchate there are in general very few clerics. All of them Mexicans, including the ruling bishop - Bishop Alejo (Pacheco-Vera).
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/12/5000-indians-baptized-orthodox-in.html
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 02:54:58 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
They say that on closer inspection, you can see the reflection of Juan Diego in the eyes of the image.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 02:56:10 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ignatius

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 08:51:57 AM »
Our family has a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe in our home. It is very beautiful.
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Offline NMHS

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 11:16:12 AM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.

Papist,  I have seen this question thrown out on discussion boards by people that are trolling or are being anti-??whatever, but I assure I am seeking truth and my question was asked in humilty.  

 I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious. Thanks,

This is why I included this statement in my original post.  Forgive me if you I stated it in a wrong manner.

I such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.   Thanks,

This is just an observation I have had over several years and I felt I needed to add the question to seek further clarification on this topic since I am not very knowledgdable in this particular area.  Maybe it wasn't a question to be added to the OP but nonetheless I didn't insert for any particular reason other than to seek truthfullness.

Thanks for all the post, I appreciate it! Caleb
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:20:48 AM by NMHS »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 07:00:10 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 07:14:07 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
The icon or image is from North America, not Central America.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 08:16:29 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.

Papist,  I have seen this question thrown out on discussion boards by people that are trolling or are being anti-??whatever, but I assure I am seeking truth and my question was asked in humilty.  

 I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious. Thanks,

This is why I included this statement in my original post.  Forgive me if you I stated it in a wrong manner.

I such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.   Thanks,

This is just an observation I have had over several years and I felt I needed to add the question to seek further clarification on this topic since I am not very knowledgdable in this particular area.  Maybe it wasn't a question to be added to the OP but nonetheless I didn't insert for any particular reason other than to seek truthfullness.

Thanks for all the post, I appreciate it! Caleb
I know that you are sincere in your questioning. I was only stating that perhaps those questions are not so productive because of their subjective nature. Just know that I know you are really trying to seek the truth.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline NMHS

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 11:18:21 PM »
Thanks!