Author Topic: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe  (Read 8643 times)

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Offline NMHS

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Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« on: March 16, 2010, 10:24:08 PM »
I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile now.  What is the Orthodox viewpoint or is there a viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe?  Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  I'm just curious because I know what it is to venerate the virgin mary but I also see those that appear (assumption) to over venerate her, such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.  I am also from southern NM and this may play a significant role in this.  I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious.  Thanks,

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 10:47:10 PM »
I have been wanting to ask this question for awhile now.  What is the Orthodox viewpoint or is there a viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe? 

There really isn't one: nothing in the story contradicts Orthodoxy (opposed to Fatima and Lourdes), Juan Diego wasn't a communicant of the Orthodox Church, the bishop he saw wasn't Orthodox, the church on the spot wasn't consecrated as an Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church doesn't have the image.

That being said, I've seen her in Orthodox Churches (interestingly, in the narthex) and didn't see anything out of place with that.

Quote
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much? 

Yes.

Quote
I'm just curious because I know what it is to venerate the virgin mary but I also see those that appear (assumption) to over venerate her, such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.  I am also from southern NM and this may play a significant role in this.  I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious.  Thanks,

No problem.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 11:04:54 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much? 
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 11:18:43 PM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 11:28:35 PM »
Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
Very Cool. Was this in the Southwest where devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is wide spread?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 11:41:11 PM »
Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
Very Cool. Was this in the Southwest where devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is wide spread?

No, strangely enough, it was in New York, a few years ago!
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Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 11:47:33 PM »
Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us!
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Offline Cymbyz

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 12:59:43 AM »
Strangely enough, the icon of the Virgin of Guadalupe (if we are to believe the account of its origin) is the only acheiropoieton (Not Made with Hands) native to the New World.  I've heard secondhand that Abp. Dmitri (ret.) of the OCA has affirmed that it's a legitimate icon, from an Orthodox point of view.  And the account of its appearance (in classical Nahuatl) did much to preserve that language from total destruction along with the pagan Aztec literature.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 01:20:23 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox

at least not right away:
Quote
5,000 Indians Baptized Orthodox in Mexico
The conversation published below took place in early December 2009, during the visit of Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) to Russia to celebrate the 15th anniversary of the Moscow representation of the Orthodox Church in America, and is devoted to the activities of the Church in Latin America.

- When was the Mexican Exarchate established?

- The Mexican Exarchate exists since the early 1970's. At that time, the bishop of the Mexican National Old Catholic Jose Church, Jose (Cortes and Olmos), got in touch with our Church, and together with his community came to Orthodoxy. Because of his work, hundreds of Mexicans penetrated the Orthodox faith.

Recently, 5,000 Indians from 23 localities in the State of Veracruz were baptized Orthodox. However, such a huge mass of parishioners have only one priest. In the Mexican Exarchate there are in general very few clerics. All of them Mexicans, including the ruling bishop - Bishop Alejo (Pacheco-Vera).
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/12/5000-indians-baptized-orthodox-in.html
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 02:54:58 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.
They say that on closer inspection, you can see the reflection of Juan Diego in the eyes of the image.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 02:56:10 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ignatius

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 08:51:57 AM »
Our family has a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe in our home. It is very beautiful.
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Offline NMHS

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 11:16:12 AM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.

Papist,  I have seen this question thrown out on discussion boards by people that are trolling or are being anti-??whatever, but I assure I am seeking truth and my question was asked in humilty.  

 I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious. Thanks,

This is why I included this statement in my original post.  Forgive me if you I stated it in a wrong manner.

I such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.   Thanks,

This is just an observation I have had over several years and I felt I needed to add the question to seek further clarification on this topic since I am not very knowledgdable in this particular area.  Maybe it wasn't a question to be added to the OP but nonetheless I didn't insert for any particular reason other than to seek truthfullness.

Thanks for all the post, I appreciate it! Caleb
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:20:48 AM by NMHS »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 07:00:10 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 07:14:07 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
The icon or image is from North America, not Central America.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Papist

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 08:16:29 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?  
Not anymore than the Eastern Orthodox who pray to the Virgin Mary, "Save us!"
I think that debating who honors her more is just silly because its a completely subjective and we will both have reasons to point at the other group. This is the kind of argument used by people who are just "anti-Catholic" and "anti-Orthodox". Its not the kind of argument used by people seeking truth.

Papist,  I have seen this question thrown out on discussion boards by people that are trolling or are being anti-??whatever, but I assure I am seeking truth and my question was asked in humilty.  

 I am not intending to stir the pot or create problems, I am just curious. Thanks,

This is why I included this statement in my original post.  Forgive me if you I stated it in a wrong manner.

I such as giving more thanks and praise to the her than Jesus Christ.   Thanks,

This is just an observation I have had over several years and I felt I needed to add the question to seek further clarification on this topic since I am not very knowledgdable in this particular area.  Maybe it wasn't a question to be added to the OP but nonetheless I didn't insert for any particular reason other than to seek truthfullness.

Thanks for all the post, I appreciate it! Caleb
I know that you are sincere in your questioning. I was only stating that perhaps those questions are not so productive because of their subjective nature. Just know that I know you are really trying to seek the truth.
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Offline NMHS

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 11:18:21 PM »
Thanks!

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2015, 08:42:20 PM »
Some strange icons of Roman Catholic origin are already venerated and commemorated in the Orthodox Church. If some Central American Orthodox maintain a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe, I'm not going to raise a fuss about it.
The icon or image is from North America, not Central America.
Central America is in North America!
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Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2015, 06:13:18 AM »
I believe it is entirely possible that the apparition is legitimate. If I recall correctly, it was after the apparition that large numbers of natives abandoned paganism and human sacrifice for Christianity. While I don't think that RCism is the true Church, I really doubt that it was likely that random natives in rural Mexico were going to find out about Orthodoxy in the 1530s so I'm willing to believe that the Virgin Mary took an "executive" decision to appear to them to convince them to stop human sacrifice and paganism even though they didn't end up Orthodox (step in the right direction, etc.).

Just my personal opinion, and not official Orthodox teaching. I have seen the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in one OCA bishop's home though, for what it's worth.

I am inclined to agree.  Especially when one considers how horrific the Aztec religion was with the human sacrifices, more human sacrifice in the ritualistic Flower Wars, in which the Aztecs always won and the weakened captive civilizations of Southern Mexico always lost, and other evils.  Now, imagine if the Aztecs had retained their religion, and eventually overpowered the Spanish, which happened anyway but under Catholicism.  But the Aztecs were technologically impressive; Cortes and his party record Tenochitlan as being as impressive a city as they had seen.  So despite the accidental devastation of small pox, they could have recovered, and by the late 18th or early 29th century thrown off the Spanish yoke at the time the Spanish Empire was crumbling, perhaps aided by shortsighted Dutch merchants.  Then they might well have tried to revive the human sacrifices to thank the Gods, and perhaps they would have sought victims from elsewhere in the Americas, especially the former Spanish Empire, or even Europe.

This unpleasant alternate reality did not happen because of this one image, which was enough to smash Aztec paganism.  Only a substrate of it remained in unpleasant cultural events like The Day of the Dead, which were unfortunately eventually tolerated, and were largely the fault of dubious practices in the Roman faith (even outside of Mexico, All Souls Day celebrated according to the Tridentine rubrics can be rather morbid, with the empty coffin, and the pall, sometimes with an actual skull and crossbones decorating it; look at Fr. Z's blog at wdptrs.com/blog for an example he used last year and was rather proud of).  This substrate has unfortunately become a fertile breeding ground for fungal growths from spores ejected by the dyimg Aztec faith.  I would cite the cult of Samta Muerte, and the related religious rites, that have Amomg other things come to play a huge role in the so called Narco Culture of the drug gangs which have killed so many Mexicans just since 2008 and devastated tourism in Tijuana and other once popular destinations.

But the majority of !exicans are opposed to this, and have in my experience high moral standards.  And the reason for that is their devout Catholicism.  And the reason for that is Our Lady of Guadalupe.  Which by the way, is an entirely realistic depiction; it is not outside the realm of possibility to say the Theotokos looked like that.

Now, stylistically, it's not my favorite icon, but in terms of the beneficial effects it had, literally creating the Mexican nation of devout Catholics; people of indigenous and Spanish descent who eventually unified on the basis of faith, and eradicating the unsavory aspects of the Aztec nation, that being its religion and warlike nature, thus giving birth to Mexico, as we know it, it could well be my favorite culturally.  I love Mexico, pious Mexicans, the hardships they've endured and their deep piety.  There is a store in Tijuana, not one of the bartering places selling junk at negotiated prices, but rather a fixed price speciality shop, called a Hand Arts in English, where one may find the finest, most exquisite Mexican embroidery and lacework, in delicacy exceeding that of Europe.  Or there was assuming the drug war did not put them out of business.  And the Hotel Cesar, where I once dined, which features exquisite cuisine and where the first, and in my opinion best, Caesar salad is made, table side, using an ingredient illegal in the US: raw eggs.  But I had no indigestion.   And cities like Durango and Chihuahua have picturesque "downtowns" (the word hardly seems adequate) that look precisely like the most charming cities in Spain.  And all this beauty was made possible by this icon, which bridged the gap between two warring cultures and allowed for a third, new culture to arise like a mythical Phoenix from their ashes.   What Mexico needs now is another icon of the Virgin Mary of similiar miraculous origin, or another providential event, to end the drug wars and wipe out the residual, toxin-spewing remnants of Aztec religion which have become so intimately connected to the Narco Culture, something to call the gangs of Mexico and the corrupt politicians and police to repentance, so that the decent ordinary folk may live a normal life of piety.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2015, 09:46:20 PM »
My wife is from Mexico and we have the Virgin of Guadalupe in our Home. In fact, our priest blessed the icon done on a clay roof shingle which we have displayed in our home.

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 01:08:16 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?

I think this is possible in the hardcore "Mary Co-Redemptrix" crowd. Officially, I don't think Catholicism venerates her more than the Orthodox (unless of course the Immaculate Conception separates her from the rest of humanity and the need for salvation by Christ, though the RCC teaches it does not). I think Orthodox piety, at least in my limited experience, is better shaped and constrained by the services of the Orthodox Church and does not rely so much on apparitions. There is certainly no shortage of wonderworking icons of the Theotokos, but these don't introduce curious ideas or novel practices like some of the Catholic Marian apparitions do. The Roman liturgy, whether traditional or the reformed version, is actually pretty light on Marian material, and I think popular piety "picks up the slack," so to speak, and Catholic bishops have historically not done very much to rein in Marian piety - heck, the popes have had a big hand in helping shape its modern (excessive?) form.
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Offline griego catolico

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2015, 12:42:23 PM »
That being said, I've seen her in Orthodox Churches (interestingly, in the narthex) and didn't see anything out of place with that.

Not just in the narthex, but in the nave as well:

Cathedral of the Ascension of Our Lord (OCA), Mexico: Link. and Link.

Saint George Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral, Mexico: Link.

Saints Peter and Paul Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral, Mexico: Link.

Saint Anthony the Great Antiochian Orthodox Monastery, Mexico: Link. and Link.

Protection of the Mother of God Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchal parish), Mexico:Link.

Greek Orthodox parish, Aguacate, Guatemala Link. and Link.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2015, 04:36:03 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?

I think this is possible in the hardcore "Mary Co-Redemptrix" crowd. Officially, I don't think Catholicism venerates her more than the Orthodox (unless of course the Immaculate Conception separates her from the rest of humanity and the need for salvation by Christ, though the RCC teaches it does not). I think Orthodox piety, at least in my limited experience, is better shaped and constrained by the services of the Orthodox Church and does not rely so much on apparitions. There is certainly no shortage of wonderworking icons of the Theotokos, but these don't introduce curious ideas or novel practices like some of the Catholic Marian apparitions do. The Roman liturgy, whether traditional or the reformed version, is actually pretty light on Marian material, and I think popular piety "picks up the slack," so to speak, and Catholic bishops have historically not done very much to rein in Marian piety - heck, the popes have had a big hand in helping shape its modern (excessive?) form.

I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

Metropolitan Hierotheos, in his book “St. Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite” offers a plethora quotes from St. Gregory about the Theotokos that would shock many protestant converts to Orthodoxy who seem to have retained their fear of “Mary worship”. 

Here are a few:

“For you (Panagia) are also a place of all the graces, and a fullness of every sort of goodness…”

“The Theotokos is the angels’ food and the place of propitiation for the race of man.  The Theotokos is the table of the angels’ delight… She is brighter than light, more blossoming than paradise, more beautifully adorned than the whole world, seen and unseen.”

“The eternal holy of holies entered into the temporary holy of holies.”

“She transmits grace to the saints in order that as in charge of the office where holiness is given, she may convey gifts of holiness to all without exception, without leaving anyone without a share, even of the hidden things of the universe, that is to say of those inaccessible things.”

“She alone is the boundary between created and uncreated nature.”

“Therefore no one can come to God without her and through the mediation which has come from her; and none of the gifts from God could have been given to angels and men except through her.”


It goes on and on...  A great book all around by the way.

Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much". 

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2015, 06:57:04 PM »
I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

...

Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

I don't think these quotes venerate her "too much," however I do think it is possible to do so. Several of the Roman Catholic apparitions make the intercession of the Theotokos to be the only thing holding back the just wrath of her Son, who apparently is ready to strike everyone dead virtually all the time. This both distorts the nature of God, who is merciful and loves mankind, and gives the Blessed Virgin the place of her Son as the unique mediator. Is she a mediatrix? Of course. Is she the greatest mediatrix in all creation? Of course. But devotion that gives her a place that is not hers and is not supported by the perennial faith of the Church is venerating her "too much."
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2015, 07:49:01 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?

I think this is possible in the hardcore "Mary Co-Redemptrix" crowd. Officially, I don't think Catholicism venerates her more than the Orthodox (unless of course the Immaculate Conception separates her from the rest of humanity and the need for salvation by Christ, though the RCC teaches it does not). I think Orthodox piety, at least in my limited experience, is better shaped and constrained by the services of the Orthodox Church and does not rely so much on apparitions. There is certainly no shortage of wonderworking icons of the Theotokos, but these don't introduce curious ideas or novel practices like some of the Catholic Marian apparitions do. The Roman liturgy, whether traditional or the reformed version, is actually pretty light on Marian material, and I think popular piety "picks up the slack," so to speak, and Catholic bishops have historically not done very much to rein in Marian piety - heck, the popes have had a big hand in helping shape its modern (excessive?) form.

I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

Metropolitan Hierotheos, in his book “St. Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite” offers a plethora quotes from St. Gregory about the Theotokos that would shock many protestant converts to Orthodoxy who seem to have retained their fear of “Mary worship”. 

Here are a few:

“For you (Panagia) are also a place of all the graces, and a fullness of every sort of goodness…”

“The Theotokos is the angels’ food and the place of propitiation for the race of man.  The Theotokos is the table of the angels’ delight… She is brighter than light, more blossoming than paradise, more beautifully adorned than the whole world, seen and unseen.”

“The eternal holy of holies entered into the temporary holy of holies.”

“She transmits grace to the saints in order that as in charge of the office where holiness is given, she may convey gifts of holiness to all without exception, without leaving anyone without a share, even of the hidden things of the universe, that is to say of those inaccessible things.”

“She alone is the boundary between created and uncreated nature.”

“Therefore no one can come to God without her and through the mediation which has come from her; and none of the gifts from God could have been given to angels and men except through her.”


It goes on and on...  A great book all around by the way.

Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2015, 07:52:19 PM »
Do you think that RC may possibly venerate the Virgin Mary too much?

I think this is possible in the hardcore "Mary Co-Redemptrix" crowd. Officially, I don't think Catholicism venerates her more than the Orthodox (unless of course the Immaculate Conception separates her from the rest of humanity and the need for salvation by Christ, though the RCC teaches it does not). I think Orthodox piety, at least in my limited experience, is better shaped and constrained by the services of the Orthodox Church and does not rely so much on apparitions. There is certainly no shortage of wonderworking icons of the Theotokos, but these don't introduce curious ideas or novel practices like some of the Catholic Marian apparitions do. The Roman liturgy, whether traditional or the reformed version, is actually pretty light on Marian material, and I think popular piety "picks up the slack," so to speak, and Catholic bishops have historically not done very much to rein in Marian piety - heck, the popes have had a big hand in helping shape its modern (excessive?) form.

I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

Metropolitan Hierotheos, in his book “St. Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite” offers a plethora quotes from St. Gregory about the Theotokos that would shock many protestant converts to Orthodoxy who seem to have retained their fear of “Mary worship”. 

Here are a few:

“For you (Panagia) are also a place of all the graces, and a fullness of every sort of goodness…”

“The Theotokos is the angels’ food and the place of propitiation for the race of man.  The Theotokos is the table of the angels’ delight… She is brighter than light, more blossoming than paradise, more beautifully adorned than the whole world, seen and unseen.”

“The eternal holy of holies entered into the temporary holy of holies.”

“She transmits grace to the saints in order that as in charge of the office where holiness is given, she may convey gifts of holiness to all without exception, without leaving anyone without a share, even of the hidden things of the universe, that is to say of those inaccessible things.”

“She alone is the boundary between created and uncreated nature.”

“Therefore no one can come to God without her and through the mediation which has come from her; and none of the gifts from God could have been given to angels and men except through her.”


It goes on and on...  A great book all around by the way.

Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Indeed.  Read the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Volume II I believe, and look up the Collyridians and their rivals the Antidicomarians.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2015, 08:30:05 PM »
I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

...

Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

I don't think these quotes venerate her "too much," however I do think it is possible to do so. Several of the Roman Catholic apparitions make the intercession of the Theotokos to be the only thing holding back the just wrath of her Son, who apparently is ready to strike everyone dead virtually all the time.

Yikes, and to think I thought the "good cop/bad cop" theology of PSA and Jonathan Edwards etc., was bad! (I still do, but this is even worse. What's next, are they going to be saying the Holy Spirit is wrathful too and the only person holding back the Spirit's wrath is the Pope, or something?)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 08:50:14 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2015, 08:49:11 PM »
I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

I'd disagree. The amount of reverence I see toward her opposed to Christ is disturbing, although this could just be an individual thing. When you have people standing attentively for the Theotokos but otherwise sitting down and behaving irreverently when it's Christ, I think you have a problem. And I observe this too frequently with Orthodox people. Simply, there is no comparison between her and Christ. The fact that some people would even consider such a comparison possible shows that they don't understand our place that the Theotokos is just human and Christ is not only human but also God. I would think that a good mother would follow the example of St. John the Forerunner and allow herself to diminish in importance so that her son can grow.

Quote
Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

Or you could read these quotes by St. John Chrysostom who accuses her of superfluous vanity.

"For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she has power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. See at all events both her self-confidence and theirs."
-Homily on Matthew 12:48-49.
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2015, 10:49:26 PM »
What you all seem to be saying is that it's not possible to venerate her too much as long as you have the correct understanding of who she is.  If that's the case, then I agree.  What I'm saying is that as an Orthodox Christian it's not necessary to go around being careful not to praise her or venerate her too much as if Christ would be offended.  If people were unceasingly praising the virtues and goodness your own mother, would you really be offended or disturbed?  That would be a strange response from a Christian in my opinion, let alone from Christ Himself. 

JamesR, why do you think venerating her is somehow "comparing" her with Christ, as if they are in competition?


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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2015, 10:51:08 PM »
I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

I'd disagree. The amount of reverence I see toward her opposed to Christ is disturbing, although this could just be an individual thing. When you have people standing attentively for the Theotokos but otherwise sitting down and behaving irreverently when it's Christ, I think you have a problem. And I observe this too frequently with Orthodox people.

How many Orthodox people have you observed if you haven't left California?   

Quote
Simply, there is no comparison between her and Christ. The fact that some people would even consider such a comparison possible shows that they don't understand our place that the Theotokos is just human and Christ is not only human but also God. I would think that a good mother would follow the example of St. John the Forerunner and allow herself to diminish in importance so that her son can grow.

Does your irreverence really know no bounds?  As if the Theotokos is actively competing against Christ in the Church! 

If her Son wishes to honour her when she would rather humble herself and point to him, and if he wants to lead his Church to do so, that is his prerogative.  He died for our sins, not JamesR.  His Father was the first to honour her by sending her the greeting of peace through the angel.  If she's good enough for God to honour, what on earth is your problem?

Quote
Quote
Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

Or you could read these quotes by St. John Chrysostom who accuses her of superfluous vanity.

"For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she has power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. See at all events both her self-confidence and theirs."
-Homily on Matthew 12:48-49.

A strange reverence for tradition this is.  Let me know when your own superfluous vanity gives way to a faith like Chrysostom's and then let's talk about the Mother of God, "misotheist". 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2015, 09:17:08 AM »
What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Way beyond my pay grade, but as you all know my ignorance has not stopped previous posts, so:

1. Her mental suffering- in meditating on the full Passion, her mental/emotional state must be taken in, no? I mean to get the WHOLE enchilada, is not the picture of her standing, watching, her Son being tortured and killed part of that? 
You imply something outside my narrow scope.

2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

3. The language of the last two questions is, again, beyond me. All who die are "co-eternal" in Heaven and elsewhere.
I grew up with nuns making similar claims "co-eternal" and "more worthy of worship" but often said behind closed doors meaning as soon as a priest walked in that kind of nonsense talk would stop.
I doubt if that is official Catholic teachings, but claims are made everywhere for all kinds of nonsense.
Some may make such claims but that can be put into a category of Huff-Po writings with roots going back to primitive-tribal goddess notions of female superiority.
Go ahead and distort relationships involving The Celestial Kingdom and we will be having men marrying fire hydrants and shoe horns.
She cannot be venerated or respected enough so have no fear in doing so.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2015, 09:31:09 AM »
2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

Except that it actually does, in some cases (which is why, if a woman gets pregnant and the child has a different blood type, there can be complications). Stem cells are also exchanged, too.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2015, 10:21:00 AM »
2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

Except that it actually does, in some cases (which is why, if a woman gets pregnant and the child has a different blood type, there can be complications). Stem cells are also exchanged, too.

Well, I stand almost corrected.
I was not thinking of pathological issues as there's none in this discussion nor is it the case that fetal cells are blood and while blood is exchanged between mom and babe, I am under the impression it is not done in the last trimester,  but you are right in both instances.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2015, 10:33:51 AM »
What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Way beyond my pay grade, but as you all know my ignorance has not stopped previous posts, so:

1. Her mental suffering- in meditating on the full Passion, her mental/emotional state must be taken in, no? I mean to get the WHOLE enchilada, is not the picture of her standing, watching, her Son being tortured and killed part of that? 
You imply something outside my narrow scope.

2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

3. The language of the last two questions is, again, beyond me. All who die are "co-eternal" in Heaven and elsewhere.
I grew up with nuns making similar claims "co-eternal" and "more worthy of worship" but often said behind closed doors meaning as soon as a priest walked in that kind of nonsense talk would stop.
I doubt if that is official Catholic teachings, but claims are made everywhere for all kinds of nonsense.
Some may make such claims but that can be put into a category of Huff-Po writings with roots going back to primitive-tribal goddess notions of female superiority.
Go ahead and distort relationships involving The Celestial Kingdom and we will be having men marrying fire hydrants and shoe horns.
She cannot be venerated or respected enough so have no fear in doing so.

I was just listing examples of heretical beliefs that would count as paying her "too much" honor. My point is that PorphriosK was being rather glib with the concern to say the right things about her.

I do think that some of what he quoted from St. Gregory Palamas does go a little too far toward the heresies that I mentioned (I fully expect PorphyriosK to just dismiss anything I have to say as an ex-Protestant, of course). That's ok though, St. Gregory was not without sin and I still thank God for his many other writings.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2015, 12:29:38 PM »
What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Way beyond my pay grade, but as you all know my ignorance has not stopped previous posts, so:

1. Her mental suffering- in meditating on the full Passion, her mental/emotional state must be taken in, no? I mean to get the WHOLE enchilada, is not the picture of her standing, watching, her Son being tortured and killed part of that? 
You imply something outside my narrow scope.

2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

3. The language of the last two questions is, again, beyond me. All who die are "co-eternal" in Heaven and elsewhere.
I grew up with nuns making similar claims "co-eternal" and "more worthy of worship" but often said behind closed doors meaning as soon as a priest walked in that kind of nonsense talk would stop.
I doubt if that is official Catholic teachings, but claims are made everywhere for all kinds of nonsense.
Some may make such claims but that can be put into a category of Huff-Po writings with roots going back to primitive-tribal goddess notions of female superiority.
Go ahead and distort relationships involving The Celestial Kingdom and we will be having men marrying fire hydrants and shoe horns.
She cannot be venerated or respected enough so have no fear in doing so.

I was just listing examples of heretical beliefs that would count as paying her "too much" honor. My point is that PorphriosK was being rather glib with the concern to say the right things about her.

I do think that some of what he quoted from St. Gregory Palamas does go a little too far toward the heresies that I mentioned (I fully expect PorphyriosK to just dismiss anything I have to say as an ex-Protestant, of course). That's ok though, St. Gregory was not without sin and I still thank God for his many other writings.

Does it occur to you that someone like St. Gregory, who is a theological tower, might have a slightly better idea about these matters than yourself?  To suggest his writings on the Theotokos are even slightly "sinful" is pretty offensive. 

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2015, 12:56:11 PM »
Sorry, I am just indebted beyond comprehension to Our Lady and feel the need to speak up about stuff like this.
Not trying to be harsh.

Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2015, 01:00:32 PM »
Sorry, I am just indebted beyond comprehension to Our Lady and feel the need to speak up about stuff like this.
Not trying to be harsh.

Same for me.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2015, 01:06:22 PM »
What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Way beyond my pay grade, but as you all know my ignorance has not stopped previous posts, so:

1. Her mental suffering- in meditating on the full Passion, her mental/emotional state must be taken in, no? I mean to get the WHOLE enchilada, is not the picture of her standing, watching, her Son being tortured and killed part of that? 
You imply something outside my narrow scope.

2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

3. The language of the last two questions is, again, beyond me. All who die are "co-eternal" in Heaven and elsewhere.
I grew up with nuns making similar claims "co-eternal" and "more worthy of worship" but often said behind closed doors meaning as soon as a priest walked in that kind of nonsense talk would stop.
I doubt if that is official Catholic teachings, but claims are made everywhere for all kinds of nonsense.
Some may make such claims but that can be put into a category of Huff-Po writings with roots going back to primitive-tribal goddess notions of female superiority.
Go ahead and distort relationships involving The Celestial Kingdom and we will be having men marrying fire hydrants and shoe horns.
She cannot be venerated or respected enough so have no fear in doing so.

I was just listing examples of heretical beliefs that would count as paying her "too much" honor. My point is that PorphriosK was being rather glib with the concern to say the right things about her.

I do think that some of what he quoted from St. Gregory Palamas does go a little too far toward the heresies that I mentioned (I fully expect PorphyriosK to just dismiss anything I have to say as an ex-Protestant, of course). That's ok though, St. Gregory was not without sin and I still thank God for his many other writings.

Does it occur to you that someone like St. Gregory, who is a theological tower, might have a slightly better idea about these matters than yourself?  To suggest his writings on the Theotokos are even slightly "sinful" is pretty offensive.

St. John Chrysostom was also a theological tower and was wrong on some things.


It's ok. I understand. And I don't mean to insult our Lady in any way. I love her very much.

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2015, 02:01:39 PM »
What if one says that Christ's redemption of us is incomplete without her mental sufferings? What if one agrees with Vassula Ryden that the Blood of Christ in the chalice is also her blood? What if one claims that she is co-eternal with God? What if one claims she is more worthy of worship than Christ Himself?

Way beyond my pay grade, but as you all know my ignorance has not stopped previous posts, so:

1. Her mental suffering- in meditating on the full Passion, her mental/emotional state must be taken in, no? I mean to get the WHOLE enchilada, is not the picture of her standing, watching, her Son being tortured and killed part of that? 
You imply something outside my narrow scope.

2. Who the heck is Vassla Ryden and why should I care what one guy wrote in a hypothetical question?
Obviously he's not an MD since the blood of the mother never mingles with the blood of any offspring.
As an allegory, it does not stand up to what really goes on in Divine Liturgy nor the teachings and beliefs of The Church.
In my feeble distorted thought, what if there is kryptonite in the chalice?  My question has as much validity as Vassla's, no?

3. The language of the last two questions is, again, beyond me. All who die are "co-eternal" in Heaven and elsewhere.
I grew up with nuns making similar claims "co-eternal" and "more worthy of worship" but often said behind closed doors meaning as soon as a priest walked in that kind of nonsense talk would stop.
I doubt if that is official Catholic teachings, but claims are made everywhere for all kinds of nonsense.
Some may make such claims but that can be put into a category of Huff-Po writings with roots going back to primitive-tribal goddess notions of female superiority.
Go ahead and distort relationships involving The Celestial Kingdom and we will be having men marrying fire hydrants and shoe horns.
She cannot be venerated or respected enough so have no fear in doing so.

I was just listing examples of heretical beliefs that would count as paying her "too much" honor. My point is that PorphriosK was being rather glib with the concern to say the right things about her.

I do think that some of what he quoted from St. Gregory Palamas does go a little too far toward the heresies that I mentioned (I fully expect PorphyriosK to just dismiss anything I have to say as an ex-Protestant, of course). That's ok though, St. Gregory was not without sin and I still thank God for his many other writings.

Does it occur to you that someone like St. Gregory, who is a theological tower, might have a slightly better idea about these matters than yourself?  To suggest his writings on the Theotokos are even slightly "sinful" is pretty offensive.

St. John Chrysostom was also a theological tower and was wrong on some things.


It's ok. I understand. And I don't mean to insult our Lady in any way. I love her very much.

It's good to hear you say that. :)
Peace to you Volnutt.

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2015, 07:43:22 PM »
I would argue that there is simply no such thing as "excessive" veneration of the Theotokos.

I'd disagree. The amount of reverence I see toward her opposed to Christ is disturbing, although this could just be an individual thing. When you have people standing attentively for the Theotokos but otherwise sitting down and behaving irreverently when it's Christ, I think you have a problem. And I observe this too frequently with Orthodox people.

How many Orthodox people have you observed if you haven't left California?   

Quote
Simply, there is no comparison between her and Christ. The fact that some people would even consider such a comparison possible shows that they don't understand our place that the Theotokos is just human and Christ is not only human but also God. I would think that a good mother would follow the example of St. John the Forerunner and allow herself to diminish in importance so that her son can grow.

Does your irreverence really know no bounds?  As if the Theotokos is actively competing against Christ in the Church! 

If her Son wishes to honour her when she would rather humble herself and point to him, and if he wants to lead his Church to do so, that is his prerogative.  He died for our sins, not JamesR.  His Father was the first to honour her by sending her the greeting of peace through the angel.  If she's good enough for God to honour, what on earth is your problem?

Quote
Quote
Honestly, read those quotes and then ask yourself if it''s possible to venerate her "too much".

Or you could read these quotes by St. John Chrysostom who accuses her of superfluous vanity.

"For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she has power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. See at all events both her self-confidence and theirs."
-Homily on Matthew 12:48-49.

A strange reverence for tradition this is.  Let me know when your own superfluous vanity gives way to a faith like Chrysostom's and then let's talk about the Mother of God, "misotheist".

I believe the word according to St. Epiphanius's Panarion, or Medicine-chest, for JamesR's deviation would be "Antidicomarian" or "Psuedo-antidicomarian."  He follows in their footsteps to be sure in his misplaced zeal against neo-Collyridianism.  It is a heresy to worship Mary and a heresy to deny her veneration, according to St. Epiphanius of Salamis, the narrow road lying between the two extremes.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 07:43:56 PM by wgw »
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Offline montalban

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2015, 05:09:35 AM »
'Stylistically' the icon is not Orthodox. We do not have icons that are attempts to be true/life-like depictions of people.

It's also an icon from a schismatic church.
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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2015, 08:20:09 AM »
'Stylistically' the icon is not Orthodox. We do not have icons that are attempts to be true/life-like depictions of people.

Actually we have quite a few. And I could not describe it as particularly "life-like".

Quote
It's also an icon from a schismatic church.

It is now venerated by thousands of Orthodox (like Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn in Vilnius). What are you going to do about it?

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2015, 05:04:36 PM »
'Stylistically' the icon is not Orthodox. We do not have icons that are attempts to be true/life-like depictions of people.

Actually we have quite a few. And I could not describe it as particularly "life-like".

Quote
It's also an icon from a schismatic church.

It is now venerated by thousands of Orthodox (like Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn in Vilnius). What are you going to do about it?

Indeed, it seems rather stylized to my eyes.  But to say we have no lifelike icons betrays a staggering ignorance of the large numbers of Russian Baroque cathedrals and also the rebuilt Holy Savior's Cathedral in Moscow, which is full of such iconography, as well as more ancient icons such as the famous icon of Christ Pantocrator that predates iconoclasm, at the Monastery of,St. Catharine in Sinai, as well as many versions of the Icon not Made by Hands, which are quite lifelike if simple.

Also look at my Syriac icon. Stylized, yes, but less so than the Byzantine school.
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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2015, 05:21:14 PM »
I'll never forget seeing the Shroud of the Virgen de Guadalupe in Mexico City when I visited there as a teenager. I was deeply moved by the Mexicans who crawled up to the Cathedral on their hands and knees to venerate the Virgen. I didn't even really understand what was happening back then, but it made a deep impression on me. So now that I'm Orthodox, I have a greater appreciation for what I witnessed. Because of my love for Mexico and the fact that I've actually seen the Shroud of the Virgen de Guadalupe, I do venerate it. But then again, I also venerate Haile Selassie.  ;)


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« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 05:21:32 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline griego catolico

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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2015, 02:10:04 AM »
'Stylistically' the icon is not Orthodox. We do not have icons that are attempts to be true/life-like depictions of people.

Actually we have quite a few. And I could not describe it as particularly "life-like".

Quote
It's also an icon from a schismatic church.

It is now venerated by thousands of Orthodox (like Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn in Vilnius). What are you going to do about it?

Indeed, it seems rather stylized to my eyes.  But to say we have no lifelike icons betrays a staggering ignorance of the large numbers of Russian Baroque cathedrals and also the rebuilt Holy Savior's Cathedral in Moscow, which is full of such iconography, as well as more ancient icons such as the famous icon of Christ Pantocrator that predates iconoclasm, at the Monastery of,St. Catharine in Sinai, as well as many versions of the Icon not Made by Hands, which are quite lifelike if simple.

Also look at my Syriac icon. Stylized, yes, but less so than the Byzantine school.

There is also the Sofrino Art factory, which--if I am not mistaken--is the official icon production factory of the Moscow patriarchate. It produces many icons which look more like portraits. Among them:



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Re: Orthodox viewpoint on the Virgen De Guadalupe
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2015, 03:36:00 AM »
It's threads like these that make me miss LBK.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 03:41:15 AM by Cyrillic »
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