Author Topic: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy  (Read 195 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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When entire groups of Greek Catholics (e.g. the ones who became ACROD, much of the OCA, etc.) were received into Orthodoxy, how were the members individually received? Were they chrismated? Was there just a confession of faith? Was there any formal process of individual reception at all?

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 02:12:11 PM »
When entire groups of Greek Catholics (e.g. the ones who became ACROD, much of the OCA, etc.) were received into Orthodoxy, how were the members individually received? Were they chrismated? Was there just a confession of faith? Was there any formal process of individual reception at all?

Mass receptions, people were not individually received in any case I am familiar with nor were clergy 'reordained' by either the Russians in the first wave between 1890 and the revolution or by the Greeks in the late 1930's.

In my parish records, one will find the last baptism by a Greek Catholic priest in early 1939 I believe and there after the entries are made by Orthodox clergy.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2015, 02:50:02 PM »
I heard of a church in Chester, PA that was half Greek Catholic and half Orthodox. People of each faith worshipped on opposite sides of the church. I don't know how that worked out. Which jurisdiction would they be under then if it was a shared church?

There are lots of old churches listed as Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic in PA.

Wouldn't it depend on what bishop was commemorated at the liturgy, or where the priest was ordained?

Offline Regnare

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2015, 03:31:02 PM »
Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic was the old official designation of what became the OCA; I don't know if it necessarily indicates any history of Greek Catholic converts.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2015, 03:43:28 PM »
Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic was the old official designation of what became the OCA; I don't know if it necessarily indicates any history of Greek Catholic converts.

A lot of the OCA churches were former Greek Catholics, usually Carpatho-Rus.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2015, 03:43:42 PM »
When entire groups of Greek Catholics (e.g. the ones who became ACROD, much of the OCA, etc.) were received into Orthodoxy, how were the members individually received? Were they chrismated? Was there just a confession of faith? Was there any formal process of individual reception at all?

Mass receptions, people were not individually received in any case I am familiar with nor were clergy 'reordained' by either the Russians in the first wave between 1890 and the revolution or by the Greeks in the late 1930's.

In my parish records, one will find the last baptism by a Greek Catholic priest in early 1939 I believe and there after the entries are made by Orthodox clergy.

Thanks, that's interesting to know.

Offline homedad76

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2015, 03:47:52 PM »
Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic was the old official designation of what became the OCA; I don't know if it necessarily indicates any history of Greek Catholic converts.

Correct but that had nothing to do with them being formerly ByzCath as far as I understand it.  It simply meant they were part of the "Catholic" (as in the complete faith not as in connected to Rome) and "Greek" as in canonical.  Our current parish still has St Nicholas Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church on its cornerstone.

Don't forget the technically correct term for all of our churches is Orthodox Catholic Church but we don't use it often because of the confusion it causes with the Eastern Rite churches under the Pope of Rome.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 03:49:47 PM by homedad76 »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2015, 04:12:27 PM »
Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic was the old official designation of what became the OCA; I don't know if it necessarily indicates any history of Greek Catholic converts.
What about the churches in Chester where half the parishioners belonged to the Rus Orthodox and the other half to the Greek Catholics, like in Chester PA (which eventually became clearly Mos. Patriarchal)?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 04:13:30 PM by rakovsky »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2015, 04:31:36 PM »
Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic was the old official designation of what became the OCA; I don't know if it necessarily indicates any history of Greek Catholic converts.

In most cases, yes.  the term "Greek Catholic Church" was coined by the Austro-Hungarian Empire to refer to the Eparchies formed from the various unions.  That is not to say Orthodox didn't make use of the term Catholic, and Orthodox Catholic, etc but Greek Catholic Church was a term used exclusively by Byzantine Christians in Union with Rome until the Latin bishops started trouble in America.

When St Alexis Toth broke with Rome,  the parishes that followed him added Russian Orthodox to Greek Catholic and eventually it spread to the rest of the Metropolia, as those that followed Metropolitan Orestes added Carpatho-Russian Orthodox to Greek Catholic and Ukainians did the same.  The  lawsuits over parish property occasioned the clinging to this term.  results varied by state as DMD states New York declared the term generic, PA, I don't think ruled on the term but pretty much gave all property to the Greek Catholics, at least those that had been erected according to canonical  procedure.  the most famous case I can think of was St John Chrysostom in Pittsburgh and the argument that those who built it didn't see Union with Rome as foundational.  They ripped up the carpet to reveal the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble in the nave.  The parish remained Greek Catholic.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2015, 04:49:10 PM »
the most famous case I can think of was St John Chrysostom in Pittsburgh and the argument that those who built it didn't see Union with Rome as foundational.  They ripped up the carpet to reveal the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble in the nave.  The parish remained Greek Catholic.
It doesn't mean that most parishioners who founded the parish saw union with Romann Union as foundational to their group.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2015, 04:59:26 PM »
the most famous case I can think of was St John Chrysostom in Pittsburgh and the argument that those who built it didn't see Union with Rome as foundational.  They ripped up the carpet to reveal the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble in the nave.  The parish remained Greek Catholic.
It doesn't mean that most parishioners who founded the parish saw union with Romann Union as foundational to their group.

Yeah, it was just the parishioners who sponsored the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble under the carpeting.  Maybe it was like two really rich people with a Western fetish.   
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 05:09:06 PM »
the most famous case I can think of was St John Chrysostom in Pittsburgh and the argument that those who built it didn't see Union with Rome as foundational.  They ripped up the carpet to reveal the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble in the nave.  The parish remained Greek Catholic.
It doesn't mean that most parishioners who founded the parish saw union with Romann Union as foundational to their group.

Yeah, it was just the parishioners who sponsored the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble under the carpeting.  Maybe it was like two really rich people with a Western fetish.

Or maybe their perception when making the parish was like that of some Maronites or Melkites who claim (incorrectly I suppose) that they don't have to accept all Rome's theology.

Now and then the RCs talk about doing a reunion with us Orthodox, and they claim somehow that Papal Supremacy need not be a total dealbreaker. If some Orthodox bought into that claim and signed up with the Pope, a somewhat similar situation could result, where the Orthodox imagine that they are on somehow equal terms with the Pope (eg. first among equals or something), or that Rome is not foundational to them in their union.

The people who made the church building could imagine that Eastern Christianity and their group of Eastern Christians was more important and thus foundational to them than being under the Pope. So when their Eastern Christian group decided to go back to the Orthodox organization, they would see it as still being Eastern Christian and thus staying within their main foundation of Eastern Christianity.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2015, 05:15:59 PM »
the most famous case I can think of was St John Chrysostom in Pittsburgh and the argument that those who built it didn't see Union with Rome as foundational.  They ripped up the carpet to reveal the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble in the nave.  The parish remained Greek Catholic.
It doesn't mean that most parishioners who founded the parish saw union with Romann Union as foundational to their group.
That is hard to maintain when many of these parishes were consecrated by the local Latin bishop.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2015, 05:32:33 PM »
the most famous case I can think of was St John Chrysostom in Pittsburgh and the argument that those who built it didn't see Union with Rome as foundational.  They ripped up the carpet to reveal the Papal Coat of Arms done in marble in the nave.  The parish remained Greek Catholic.
It doesn't mean that most parishioners who founded the parish saw union with Romann Union as foundational to their group.
That is hard to maintain when many of these parishes were consecrated by the local Latin bishop.
But they did not have any Uniate bishops. And was there even an Orthodox bishop available?
So they had to use a Latin bishop, even though they definitely didn't consider themselves Latin.

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Re: The reception of Greek Catholic jurisdictions to Orthodoxy
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2015, 05:36:40 PM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.