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Author Topic: Vatican, again, Showing its True Opinion on Married Priests  (Read 1517 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: March 10, 2010, 12:50:47 PM »

Over at byzcath there is a lot of hand wringing over this:
Quote
ZENIT:The World Seen From Rome
Married Priests Will Always Be an Exception
ZENIT: Is celibacy a dogma of faith or a discipline?
 
Father Touze: Neither one nor the other. It isn't a dogma of faith because we see married priests in the Church today such as, for example, some [priests] of the Eastern Catholic Church. Not all but some admit married priests. Or as has been reminded recently in the Holy Father's motu propio "Anglicanorum coetibus," published last Nov. 4: Among the ex-Anglicans who want to return to communion with the Catholic Church, there will be married priests admitted.

ZENIT: With this measure, do you think that one day, celibacy might become voluntary also for priests of the Latin rite?
 
Father Touze: No, because the Church is understanding more and more the relation between priesthood, episcopate and celibacy. It is something that could be likened to the revelation of a dogma, though it isn't so at this time; one tends increasingly to understand that a practice must be promoted among all priests and also among Eastern Catholic priests which is truly similar to the one lived in the first centuries.

It seems that the Vatican is not satisfied with saying that the Latins went on to bigger and better things. No. Now the claim is that mandated celibacy has been from the beginning and married clergy the innovation. Dogma developing (i.e. doctrinal drift along with historicity and revisionism) right before our eyes.

There's a video here:
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/zenit-clerical-celibacy-to-remain-normative-and-extended-to-the-entire-church/

The Vatican has been promoting this on its website:

"The biblical foundation of priestly celibacy" by Ignace de la Potterie
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_bfoun_en.html

and with an Eastern mouthpiece:
"Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the History of the Church," Roman Cholij, Secretary of the Apostolic Exarch for Ukrainian Catholics in Great Britain
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html

The latter in book form:
http://books.google.ro/books?id=i8BL3jgDYYcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Roman+Cholij&source=bl&ots=TekHGqg44b&sig=5CLhKiSjjiyY-9Da9J4nbaXngVI&hl=ro&ei=EsiXS-uvN4L4Ne-zrHo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

the former based on Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy By Christian Cochini
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc2ovrZ_BZkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=apostolic+origins+of+priestly+celibacy&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I'll add Celibacy in the early Church: the beginnings of the discipline of obligatory ... By Stefan Heid
http://books.google.ro/books?id=Qxy3l0F7mUwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

This banner has been taken up by the ultratraditionalists of the Vatican, the same ones who condemn the Orthodox by extoling their Korban factories a/k/a their annulment tribunals under the pretense of piety:
Quote
Curiously enough, abolishing priestly celibacy comes hand-in-hand with destroying the indissolubility of marriage. This is easy to understand since it is based on the idea that chastity is impossible to observe. Thus, not only celibate continence is cast aside but also conjugal chastity and fidelity in marriage. Historically this happened with Eastern Orthodox schismatics, Protestants, Anglicans and others. The total or partial abolition of priestly celibacy either came together with or was preceded by permission to divorce.
http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/tfp-recommends-books/tracing-the-glorious-origins-of-priestly-celibacy.html


One response makes a good point on the Vatican's doctrinal drift down this road:
Quote
In this regard, it is somewhat inconsistent on the part of Roman Catholicism to have restored a permanent married diaconate that is exempt from a canon cited as an authoritative witness to apostolic tradition.
http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/celibacy.asp

They feign distress at "mistranlation, for instance, of I Corinthians 9:5
http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/the-wiles-and-guiles-of-a-campaign-against-priestly-celibacy.html

I'll add "Paul on marriage and celibacy: the hellenistic background of 1 Corinthians 7" Will Deming
http://books.google.ro/books?id=u_6a-sMDv6AC&pg=PA96&dq=Potterie+celibacy&cd=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

They don't show the same concern for mistranslation by the United States Counference of Catholic Bishops when it comes to Matthew19:9 "I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery."
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew19.htm

I hope that they continue to push this.  It may be as fruitfull as it was in the 30's.  I'm curious of how the Traditional Anglican Communion will take to it, now that they are throwing their lot in with the Vatican. Not that it means they won't: Fr. Ryland (who is also know for silly things on the Orthodox in "On This Rock") proves that.
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/rayryland/thegift.asp
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 01:04:51 PM »

It should be noted that the priest being quoted by Zenit is from Opus Dei so I am not sure that it is accurate to attribute the statements to the Vatican, anymore than statements from sources associated with the EP or the MP, for example, are necessarily reflective of the Orthodox position, as anyone following the board would surely notice!  However, I do agree that once again, this is indicative of the historical perspective taken by the Latin Church regarding her Eastern Catholic Churches, a position which for many Latin clergy and hierarchs, has changed little since the days of Archbishop Ireland!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 01:06:51 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 01:06:53 PM »

It should be noted that the priest being quoted by Zenit is from Opus Dei so I am not sure that it is accurate to attribute the statements to the Vatican, anymore than statements from sources associated with the EP or the MP, for example, are necessarily reflective of the Orthodox position, as anyone following the board would surely notice!

Take a look at the links to the Vatican's official web site.
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 05:23:19 PM »

I came across something interesting in Quasten's Patrology. One of the non-canonized Alexandrian fathers was elevated to the episcopate in the time of Pope Theophius (St. Cyril of Alexandria's uncle). What's interesting is that he nearly turned the position down -he wrote a letter asking that he NOT be asked to put his wife away, nor cease his belief in neo-Platonic ideas such as pre-existence of souls and eternity of matter / eternity of creation (Joseph Smith's Mormons are actualy latter-day Platonists in this regard). Surprisingly, he was allowed to hold on to these ideas and keep his wife. Unfortunately I don't have this father's name on hand, but he is known to have consulted the philosopheress Hypatia, who was later beaten to death by a Christian mob in the era of Cyril. I get the strong impression that in pre-Cyrillian times, the See was something of a theological mess, due to contamination coming from Greek philopsophy.
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 05:51:03 PM »

Isa,

As podkarpatska points out there is certainly a segment of the Latin Church heavily invested in this claim, why continue with a system that isn't working if it is only a matter of discipline?, but no serious scholar Latin or Eastern takes them seriously the Vatican webmaster not withstanding.  Fr.Roman actually repudiated his former scholarship.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 07:08:57 PM »

Isa,

As podkarpatska points out there is certainly a segment of the Latin Church heavily invested in this claim, why continue with a system that isn't working if it is only a matter of discipline?, but no serious scholar Latin or Eastern takes them seriously the Vatican webmaster not withstanding.  Fr.Roman actually repudiated his former scholarship.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon, do you have a link to his repudiation?

We have danced this waltz with the Vatican before, several times since St. Paphnutios, and we know that those invested repeatedly get put into the role of conductor.
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 08:23:51 PM »

If I remember correctly that info came by way of Fr. Serge at byzcath.
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 04:30:38 PM »

With new "revelations" like these, it seems to be only a matter of time before many of the various Eastern Catholic Churches break with Rome and return to the Mother Church of Orthodoxy.

With the way Rome seems to be moving, you can be sure that a lot of RC's will be moving with them.  I have said it before an I'll make the observation again, the RCC moves in extremes, from one direction to the other like a pendalum.  They have had their period of liberal experimentation and openness towards the world from the 60's up until the present time.  Now they are moving in the exact opposite direction, towards on almost fanatical kind of theocratic dictatorship.  This is because they see the reforms of Vatican Council II as a failure and want to move back to something which they consider to be more workable and safe.  Unfortunately it seems as if they are going overboard in their desire to return to the "good old days" of scholasticism and Latin liturgy.  Now they are even against the very concept of a married clergy, even outside the Latin rite of the Church.  Next thing you know, they will be against sex altogether for even married laity.  Where will it end?

I would be happy to know what the more Eastern minded Melkite patriarch will say about these theological developments?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 04:35:05 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 11:17:59 PM »

With new "revelations" like these, it seems to be only a matter of time before many of the various Eastern Catholic Churches break with Rome and return to the Mother Church of Orthodoxy.

With the way Rome seems to be moving, you can be sure that a lot of RC's will be moving with them.  I have said it before an I'll make the observation again, the RCC moves in extremes, from one direction to the other like a pendalum.  They have had their period of liberal experimentation and openness towards the world from the 60's up until the present time.  Now they are moving in the exact opposite direction, towards on almost fanatical kind of theocratic dictatorship.  This is because they see the reforms of Vatican Council II as a failure and want to move back to something which they consider to be more workable and safe.  Unfortunately it seems as if they are going overboard in their desire to return to the "good old days" of scholasticism and Latin liturgy.  Now they are even against the very concept of a married clergy, even outside the Latin rite of the Church.  Next thing you know, they will be against sex altogether for even married laity.  Where will it end?

I would be happy to know what the more Eastern minded Melkite patriarch will say about these theological developments?

What for? You already spoke for them.
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 06:04:21 AM »

and with an Eastern mouthpiece:
"Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the History of the Church," Roman Cholij, Secretary of the Apostolic Exarch for Ukrainian Catholics in Great Britain
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html

This is the only one I read.  This is very far out of my league, but this article seemed very compelling.  I'd be interested to hear your response, Isa, or the responses of others.
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 07:16:21 AM »

I understand celibacy in monastics but with all the problems the RCC has had with the priesthood one would think marriage would only help it. Problems will always remain but would lessen and celibacy should always be valued but why the extreme position? Perhaps the Vatican should also review how some celibate monastics also practise their faith too though. A friend of mine who is Buddhist said she attended a gathering conducted by a Catholic nun who is also a sensei (some sort of Buddhist adept). I guess a married priest is less akin to tradition than a monastic conducting non Christian spiritual techniques.
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