Author Topic: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?  (Read 12377 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2010, 10:20:40 AM »
Isa- Let's cut through the tangents which you seem very fond of.

We have a modern English liturgy now, so your point about diglossia is moot.


We have WRO now, so your point about uniformity of rite is moot.

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No one is fighting to adopt Middle or Old English.

But they are fighting to adopt WRO: what became the "Nordic Catholic Church" went over to the Polish National Catholic only after the Greek bishop of Sweden stated that he didn't want the idea to get out that Orthodoxy was for Scandinavians.


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As an aside, Elizabethan English is in fact our closest parallel to, say, Classical Chinese or Attic Greek, because it is generally recognized that English literature and English expressive power reached its highest point in that era (Shakespeare, KJV, Milton, Spenser, etc.), Beowulf, Sir Gawain, and Chaucer notwithstanding. Old and Middle English are often said to be less flexible and less rich in expressive power and subtlety than Early Modern English.

That's about the only thing it has in common with a parallel with Classical Chinese, Arabic or Greek.  Nowhere near the difference between it and formal English of today, because both are Modern English.  There are other problems with the comparison, but I wouldn't want to go out on a tangent....

Bishop Kallistos, however, made a statement which makes it moot anyway: he stated that he translated the Festal Menaion and Lenten Triodion (which are in the language you speak of) because he was raied with that style (KJV and BCP and all being Authorized) and would remain with it to his dying day, but he realized that that was not the language of the Cypriot immigrants (the bulk of the Greeks in Britain it seems) and so modern translations should be done.  Such a statement is incomprehensibile in the East (as the Evanglika and other incidents/statements have shown).


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That's why poets continued to write in this language up to the 19th century (and some, even today), even after Early Modern English had been replaced by contemporary English in everyday speech. If there is anything to be called "Classical English" it is Early Modern English, not Old English or Middle English.

See above.


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Someone who argues that every ethnicity or culture should have its own rite has no right to criticize those who think every ethnicity or culture should have its own church.

And to whom are you refering?
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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2010, 10:24:04 AM »
Is there a substantial difference between the Eastern and Western Rites? They preach the same thing right?

Yes. The problem is, the Western rites are defunct. The rites currently being promoted as "Western Rite Orthodoxy" are historical guesswork and pastiche, mostly using post-schism Roman Catholic and Anglican texts.

Funny, I've been to several of those "defunct" Churches.  

And some people, visiting Epcot center in Disney World, might think they had visited France or China.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2010, 10:26:28 AM »
sohma_hatori is talking about the identity of Eastern Orthodoxy as a religion in the Philippines while you are talking about identity of the Philippine Orthodox Church as a whole in comparison with the other Orthodox churches in the world.

I tend to think big: I should think that the Phillipine Orthodox would be both fully Phillipine and fully Orthodox, and would eventually leaven the whole lump into an autocephalous Church with a majority in the Phillipines.

You don't have any Eastern vagante groups in the Phillipines?

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Indeed, its quite an identity to be WRO -- but in the Philippines there are, as sohma said, so many vagante groups -- we have an Anglican 'offshoot' (Pilipinista), St. Pope Pius Vatican One-ists :-\, Unorthodox 'Orthodox' and Tridentine Mass Fan Catholics -- all of these causing genuine Eastern Orthodoxy to vanish from the picture  :( -- if WR was to be used.

Is there a reason why all these groups try to appeal to Phillipinos with a Western Rite?

Quote
Sadly, I have diverted from my former stand of supporting WR to not supporting it.
Sadly indeed.
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Offline yochanan

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2010, 10:29:34 AM »
sohma_hatori is talking about the identity of Eastern Orthodoxy as a religion in the Philippines while you are talking about identity of the Philippine Orthodox Church as a whole in comparison with the other Orthodox churches in the world.

I tend to think big: I should think that the Phillipine Orthodox would be both fully Phillipine and fully Orthodox, and would eventually leaven the whole lump into an autocephalous Church with a majority in the Phillipines.

You don't have any Eastern vagante groups in the Phillipines?

Quote
Indeed, its quite an identity to be WRO -- but in the Philippines there are, as sohma said, so many vagante groups -- we have an Anglican 'offshoot' (Pilipinista), St. Pope Pius Vatican One-ists :-\, Unorthodox 'Orthodox' and Tridentine Mass Fan Catholics -- all of these causing genuine Eastern Orthodoxy to vanish from the picture  :( -- if WR was to be used.

Is there a reason why all these groups try to appeal to Phillipinos with a Western Rite?

Quote
Sadly, I have diverted from my former stand of supporting WR to not supporting it.
Sadly indeed.

1. Yes, there are Eastern vagante groups --  the one 'His Holiness Patriarch John Florentine' is part of.

2. Isn't the answer obvious? Its because the Philippines is majorly Catholic! -- just like what the Baptists did in Georgia. Should we emulate them?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 10:32:32 AM by yochanan »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2010, 10:31:23 AM »
Is there a substantial difference between the Eastern and Western Rites? They preach the same thing right?

Yes. The problem is, the Western rites are defunct. The rites currently being promoted as "Western Rite Orthodoxy" are historical guesswork and pastiche, mostly using post-schism Roman Catholic and Anglican texts.

Funny, I've been to several of those "defunct" Churches.  

And some people, visiting Epcot center in Disney World, might think they had visited France or China.

And going to Church of some others, you would swear that you were in X (fill in Old World country of choice). And then there's those who think that Y (fill in defunct monarchy) still rules from Z (fill in defunct capital).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 10:44:58 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2010, 10:42:47 AM »
sohma_hatori is talking about the identity of Eastern Orthodoxy as a religion in the Philippines while you are talking about identity of the Philippine Orthodox Church as a whole in comparison with the other Orthodox churches in the world.

I tend to think big: I should think that the Phillipine Orthodox would be both fully Phillipine and fully Orthodox, and would eventually leaven the whole lump into an autocephalous Church with a majority in the Phillipines.

You don't have any Eastern vagante groups in the Phillipines?

Quote
Indeed, its quite an identity to be WRO -- but in the Philippines there are, as sohma said, so many vagante groups -- we have an Anglican 'offshoot' (Pilipinista), St. Pope Pius Vatican One-ists :-\, Unorthodox 'Orthodox' and Tridentine Mass Fan Catholics -- all of these causing genuine Eastern Orthodoxy to vanish from the picture  :( -- if WR was to be used.

Is there a reason why all these groups try to appeal to Phillipinos with a Western Rite?

Quote
Sadly, I have diverted from my former stand of supporting WR to not supporting it.
Sadly indeed.

Isn't the answer obvious? Its because the Philippines is majorly Catholic! -- just like what the Baptists did in Georgia. Should we emulate them?

Denying your basic dogma?  No.  The problem that the Baptist have is that they are adopting, like wolves in sheep's clothing, things that Baptist dogma says they shouldn't do (liturgy, vestments, clergy, etc.).  There is no such thing in WRO, which is also what sets it apart from "reverse uniatism."

When Bulgaria, in the Patriarchate of the West, adopted the Eastern rite, it also became Easternized.  I've brought up before, how Eastern is the Phillipines?  Aftet half a millenium of Westernization which united the islands, how much of the culture of the thalassocracies that preceded remained?  How Eastern were they (I don't know)?

The aim of the Philipine Orthodox should be the aim of the Orthodox everywhere: not to be the exotic exception, but the mainstream norm.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #96 on: March 17, 2010, 10:46:09 AM »
sohma_hatori is talking about the identity of Eastern Orthodoxy as a religion in the Philippines while you are talking about identity of the Philippine Orthodox Church as a whole in comparison with the other Orthodox churches in the world.

I tend to think big: I should think that the Phillipine Orthodox would be both fully Phillipine and fully Orthodox, and would eventually leaven the whole lump into an autocephalous Church with a majority in the Phillipines.

You don't have any Eastern vagante groups in the Phillipines?

Quote
Indeed, its quite an identity to be WRO -- but in the Philippines there are, as sohma said, so many vagante groups -- we have an Anglican 'offshoot' (Pilipinista), St. Pope Pius Vatican One-ists :-\, Unorthodox 'Orthodox' and Tridentine Mass Fan Catholics -- all of these causing genuine Eastern Orthodoxy to vanish from the picture  :( -- if WR was to be used.

Is there a reason why all these groups try to appeal to Phillipinos with a Western Rite?

Quote
Sadly, I have diverted from my former stand of supporting WR to not supporting it.
Sadly indeed.

1. Yes, there are Eastern vagante groups --  the one 'His Holiness Patriarch John Florentine' is part of.

Then what is rejection of WRO going to accomplish?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yochanan

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2010, 11:03:48 AM »

The aim of the Philipine Orthodox should be the aim of the Orthodox everywhere: not to be the exotic exception, but the mainstream norm.

You have a point. But can not the Eastern Rite make itself the mainstream norm by presenting something new and curiosity-arousing? Can not the Eastern Rite preach that it is God who is the Judge and not the Church? Can not the Eastern Rite speak by itself that those who practice it are not servants of the Roman Pope but of the whole Church of Christ and the God of whom they serve?

(Forgive me for the poem-like tone.)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:04:23 AM by yochanan »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2010, 12:33:45 PM »

The aim of the Philipine Orthodox should be the aim of the Orthodox everywhere: not to be the exotic exception, but the mainstream norm.

You have a point. But can not the Eastern Rite make itself the mainstream norm by presenting something new and curiosity-arousing?

Sure-but so can the Pentacostals. They are certainly new and very curios.

Curiosity killed the cat.

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Can not the Eastern Rite preach that it is God who is the Judge and not the Church?

No. That's Protestantism.

Quote
Can not the Eastern Rite speak by itself that those who practice it are not servants of the Roman Pope but of the whole Church of Christ and the God of whom they serve?

No. The Vatican has plenty of followers in various Eastern rites. And restricting Orthodoxy to the Eastern rite restricts the Church of Christ from the whole into a geograhical/cultural confine.  It denies that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.

Quote
(Forgive me for the poem-like tone.)

No problem.  We Arabs love rhetoric.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Robb

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2010, 07:20:58 PM »
Although I am not a Liturgical expert, I still believe that the rite of Constantinople is superior to all other rites, either now defunct or revived in recnet times.

Any attempt to bring other ritesonto the scene will just muddy up already unclear waters, IMHO.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2010, 10:14:10 PM »
Although I am not a Liturgical expert, I still believe that the rite of Constantinople is superior to all other rites, either now defunct or revived in recnet times.

Well, that's a different issue.


Quote
Any attempt to bring other ritesonto the scene will just muddy up already unclear waters, IMHO.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yochanan

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #101 on: March 18, 2010, 08:09:21 AM »

The aim of the Philipine Orthodox should be the aim of the Orthodox everywhere: not to be the exotic exception, but the mainstream norm.

You have a point. But can not the Eastern Rite make itself the mainstream norm by presenting something new and curiosity-arousing?

Sure-but so can the Pentacostals. They are certainly new and very curios.

Curiosity killed the cat.

Quote
Can not the Eastern Rite preach that it is God who is the Judge and not the Church?

No. That's Protestantism.

Quote
Can not the Eastern Rite speak by itself that those who practice it are not servants of the Roman Pope but of the whole Church of Christ and the God of whom they serve?

No. The Vatican has plenty of followers in various Eastern rites. And restricting Orthodoxy to the Eastern rite restricts the Church of Christ from the whole into a geograhical/cultural confine.  It denies that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.

Quote
(Forgive me for the poem-like tone.)

No problem.  We Arabs love rhetoric.

Don't get me wrong I love Western Rite. (If only you just knew the reason why I came to the Catholic Church). It's just that it's so Catholic -- perhaps we could do something to set it apart from Catholicism and Vatican I-ist groups.

BTW, what sets Orthodoxy aside from all other religions? I mean the external.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Could predominant Catholic countries use Western Rite?
« Reply #102 on: March 18, 2010, 09:31:37 AM »

The aim of the Philipine Orthodox should be the aim of the Orthodox everywhere: not to be the exotic exception, but the mainstream norm.

You have a point. But can not the Eastern Rite make itself the mainstream norm by presenting something new and curiosity-arousing?

Sure-but so can the Pentacostals. They are certainly new and very curios.

Curiosity killed the cat.

Quote
Can not the Eastern Rite preach that it is God who is the Judge and not the Church?

No. That's Protestantism.

Quote
Can not the Eastern Rite speak by itself that those who practice it are not servants of the Roman Pope but of the whole Church of Christ and the God of whom they serve?

No. The Vatican has plenty of followers in various Eastern rites. And restricting Orthodoxy to the Eastern rite restricts the Church of Christ from the whole into a geograhical/cultural confine.  It denies that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.

Quote
(Forgive me for the poem-like tone.)

No problem.  We Arabs love rhetoric.

Don't get me wrong I love Western Rite. (If only you just knew the reason why I came to the Catholic Church). It's just that it's so Catholic -- perhaps we could do something to set it apart from Catholicism and Vatican I-ist groups.

WRO is not NO, nor in Latin. And the faithful participate (people used to do the rosary because they had nothing to do with what the priest was doing).


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BTW, what sets Orthodoxy aside from all other religions? I mean the external.

Someone else should probably answer this. I don't worry about externals.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth