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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 27178 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #405 on: August 07, 2010, 08:42:14 PM »

OK - so why shouldn't ANY adult who "tampers with" a child sexually - whether related or not - be dealt with severely by the law??  What am I missing here, Mary? 



You have a good heart, so let us not contest this.

Mary
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« Reply #406 on: August 07, 2010, 09:21:51 PM »

But isn't this the whole essence of the abuse scandal, and why it is so scandalous - the idea that some abusers should be protected, rather than punished, because they are "fathers" and therefore somehow their abusive actions are different?
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« Reply #407 on: August 07, 2010, 11:12:02 PM »

But isn't this the whole essence of the abuse scandal, and why it is so scandalous - the idea that some abusers should be protected, rather than punished, because they are "fathers" and therefore somehow their abusive actions are different?

Have you ever been molested by anyone?
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« Reply #408 on: August 08, 2010, 12:00:02 AM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.
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« Reply #409 on: August 08, 2010, 11:30:24 AM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 laugh  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.
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« Reply #410 on: August 08, 2010, 11:47:42 AM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 laugh  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #411 on: August 08, 2010, 02:03:41 PM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 laugh  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

M.
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« Reply #412 on: August 08, 2010, 07:50:33 PM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 laugh  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #413 on: August 08, 2010, 07:56:38 PM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 laugh  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.

Yer all heart, ducks.

What do you do with the abused who love their abuser?

Cut their heads off too?...well...actually, in the world you describe here...they do.

M.
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« Reply #414 on: August 08, 2010, 08:04:09 PM »

Oh no you don't, Mary.  We're not discussing our own anecdotal experiences.  And I don't play "blame the victim, forgive the abuser" games either.  Anyone who molests a child deserves to be punished.

 laugh  I see.

We do not agree at all on the fine points.  I don't even think you have a fine point to use in this discussion from what you are saying here.

Not to worry.  My opinions are inconsequential, I am not in charge of much of anything but my own life and that is quite enough.

I would like to ask why "forgive the abuser" is linked to "blame the victim"?   From what I can see they are not necessarily related.  They may be but they are not contingent.

M.

I've never forgotten the day in Religious Studies class decades ago when Fr Bennet proclaimed:  "Men, the human race is a contingent creation.  There was no need for God to create us.  Since He knows everything in advance He would never have created us if the great majority of us were going to go to the eternal fires of Hell.  Pay no attention to the people who tell you most of the us are destined for hell.  They have no idea of what they speak.   Tell them that the very contingency of the human race utterly precludes that and the idea imputes evil to God Himselfl"

Most of us actually sat up, took notice, and wrote it down!

The sweet sound of Origenism echoes down the age.  He was a brilliant brilliant theological mind, yet stained with the taint of heresy, much to my undying regret.

Try it on a hell fire and thunder street preacher....

Does God know everything?

....Yes.

Is the human race contingent?

....Yes.

Would God have created men if He knew that the great majority of us was going to spend eternity in the torments of hell fire?

Unless the man is the most committed of Calvinists he is bound to say, No.


Quote
What does this have to do with earthly management of sexual abuse and abusers?

When the decadent and debauched "Christian" West is conquered by Dar al-Islam, Sharia will take care of such people.  Our own institutions have become too effete to manage this evil.

Yer all heart, ducks.

What do you do with the abused who love their abuser?

Cut their heads off too?...well...actually, in the world you describe here...they do.

M.

Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #415 on: August 08, 2010, 08:07:43 PM »


Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.

You ignored my question. 
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« Reply #416 on: August 08, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »

What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.
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« Reply #417 on: August 08, 2010, 08:21:18 PM »


Imagine the benefits of dhimmitude.  After the initial rough time of enforcement it will be so much better.   No liquor stores to fuel the criminals and the youth for their crimes.   No massage parlours,  no pornography, no Gay Pride marches, no abortion factories.  The Muslims will give us the public morality which Christianity has not been able to achieve.

You ignored my question. 

Cut their heads off too?...

The return of state executions to Western Europe will certainly be one of the features of the Muslim conquest.  On balance, because of the desirability of the return to traditional public morality, no mean achievement in decadent Europe, this will be seen as acceptable.    And after all, it is not long since execution was a common feature of the justice systems of Europe and I believe it still is in parts of the United States.  I have never liked the idea of execution but it has been a part of Christian society since its inception.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #418 on: August 08, 2010, 08:38:13 PM »

What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.

I agree with your last comment here in that a child's love and affection and trust in his or her abuser does indeed make the crime more heinous.   Also makes it far more difficult to manage.

Also not all abuse is of the same magnitude in terms of actual sexual activity.  Some of it may be in the nature of watching or fondling, rather than actual penetration or other more invasive acts.

So each different kind of action takes its own toll, differently.  And depends heavily on the individual psyche victim and not some "standard" for outcomes of abuse. 

In all cases there is prolonged and nagging fear for the victim.

Fear of being exposed...the secretive aspect.

Fear of being in some way complicit...if nothing but by silence.

Fear of having the abuser harmed in some way by exposure...which may be more terrifying than facing any personal harm.

Fear of hurting another loved one if the abuse is discovered.

Fear that it will never stop.

Fear that it will...and then there is nothing but the awful silence.

Very complicated and there is no one-size-fits-all response to the abuser that is good for the VICTIM!!

I find that exceptionally few people take any of this, and more than this even, into consideration when  talking about abuse cases, much less the law enforcement and mental health establishments.

Mary
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« Reply #419 on: August 08, 2010, 08:46:18 PM »

So what's the answer?  Just keep silent and let the abuser keep doing his thing? 

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser has molested other children, too?

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser actually murdered someone?

And I note in another thread that you don't seem to have a whole lot of sympathy for the victim when she's "scantily clad".  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #420 on: August 08, 2010, 08:47:26 PM »

What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.

I agree with your last comment here in that a child's love and affection and trust in his or her abuser does indeed make the crime more heinous.   Also makes it far more difficult to manage.

Also not all abuse is of the same magnitude in terms of actual sexual activity.  Some of it may be in the nature of watching or fondling, rather than actual penetration or other more invasive acts.

So each different kind of action takes its own toll, differently.  And depends heavily on the individual psyche victim and not some "standard" for outcomes of abuse. 

In all cases there is prolonged and nagging fear for the victim.

Fear of being exposed...the secretive aspect.

Fear of being in some way complicit...if nothing but by silence.

Fear of having the abuser harmed in some way by exposure...which may be more terrifying than facing any personal harm.

Fear of hurting another loved one if the abuse is discovered.

Fear that it will never stop.

Fear that it will...and then there is nothing but the awful silence.

Very complicated and there is no one-size-fits-all response to the abuser that is good for the VICTIM!!

I find that exceptionally few people take any of this, and more than this even, into consideration when  talking about abuse cases, much less the law enforcement and mental health establishments.

Mary

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

To bring this back on topic, I wonder how this plays out in Europe?
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« Reply #421 on: August 08, 2010, 08:59:59 PM »

What irritated me in your earlier post, Mary, was that you seemed to be saying that only if I myself had been abused did I have the right to express an opinion on what should happen to abusers.

Must I also be a murder victim to voice my opinion that murderers ought to be locked away?  Or lose all my money before I can condemn burglars?

The sexual abuse of a minor child is both immoral and criminal, and should be dealt with accordingly.  The fact that the abused child still loves her abuser only makes the crime that much more heinous.

I agree with your last comment here in that a child's love and affection and trust in his or her abuser does indeed make the crime more heinous.   Also makes it far more difficult to manage.

Also not all abuse is of the same magnitude in terms of actual sexual activity.  Some of it may be in the nature of watching or fondling, rather than actual penetration or other more invasive acts.

So each different kind of action takes its own toll, differently.  And depends heavily on the individual psyche victim and not some "standard" for outcomes of abuse. 

In all cases there is prolonged and nagging fear for the victim.

Fear of being exposed...the secretive aspect.

Fear of being in some way complicit...if nothing but by silence.

Fear of having the abuser harmed in some way by exposure...which may be more terrifying than facing any personal harm.

Fear of hurting another loved one if the abuse is discovered.

Fear that it will never stop.

Fear that it will...and then there is nothing but the awful silence.

Very complicated and there is no one-size-fits-all response to the abuser that is good for the VICTIM!!

I find that exceptionally few people take any of this, and more than this even, into consideration when  talking about abuse cases, much less the law enforcement and mental health establishments.

Mary

Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

To bring this back on topic, I wonder how this plays out in Europe?

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

I don't know how it plays out in Europe, of course. 

I know I am not impressed with what goes on in this country.

M.
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« Reply #422 on: August 08, 2010, 09:00:48 PM »

So what's the answer?  Just keep silent and let the abuser keep doing his thing? 

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser has molested other children, too?

How will the victim feel when he/she finds out that his/her abuser actually murdered someone?

And I note in another thread that you don't seem to have a whole lot of sympathy for the victim when she's "scantily clad".  Roll Eyes

Until you stop huffing and puffing and adding things to what I say, you can talk to somebody else.

Mary
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« Reply #423 on: August 08, 2010, 09:34:53 PM »


Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.
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« Reply #424 on: August 08, 2010, 09:47:01 PM »


Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.

I was thinking more along the lines of families being, by far and away, the source of the greatest percentage of sexual abuse in any society.  Is there spiritual help encouraged for children who have been victims of abuse in the home or from a trusted family member?...or does the same barrier apply?

Is talk therapy expected to be sufficient? 

How do you think secular health care deals with areas of forgiveness, for example, in cases of abuse where the abuser is the mother or the father, or if there is conflict between secular ideas of forgiveness and religious ideas of forgiveness?  This difference seems to be particularly glaring for Catholics and Orthodox who are expected to forgive and forget as God forgives and forgets.   In fact anyone who takes the Pater Noster seriously ought to have a real problem with secular talk therapy...don't you think?

Mary

Mary
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« Reply #425 on: August 08, 2010, 10:02:53 PM »


Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.

I was thinking more along the lines of families being, by far and away, the source of the greatest percentage of sexual abuse in any society.  Is there spiritual help encouraged for children who have been victims of abuse in the home or from a trusted family member?...or does the same barrier apply?

Is talk therapy expected to be sufficient? 

How do you think secular health care deals with areas of forgiveness, for example, in cases of abuse where the abuser is the mother or the father, or if there is conflict between secular ideas of forgiveness and religious ideas of forgiveness?  This difference seems to be particularly glaring for Catholics and Orthodox who are expected to forgive and forget as God forgives and forgets.   In fact anyone who takes the Pater Noster seriously ought to have a real problem with secular talk therapy...don't you think?

For better or worse what you call "secular talk therapy" is what is available to all the population.   If a person desires something additional, some sort of religious therapy and counselling from a practitioner of religion, whether Christian or Muslim, they would need to make their own arrangements with whatever religious organisation they prefer.

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« Reply #426 on: August 09, 2010, 12:16:02 AM »


Interesting.  In this country it is the opposite.  The mental health organisations, the Police and the Courts will give a lot of thought to these considerations.  Perhaps a result of our being a "Social Welfare" state for over a century now.

In the secular world of abuse-care as you know it there, are the victims ever recommended for spiritual guidance that you know of?

My brother is a psychiatric nurse and works now in an administrative position for a governmental mental health agency.  He has spoken of this and says that it is a very sensitive question.  We, too, here in New Zealand, have had Catholic priests convicted and imprisoned fro sexual abuse and the position and prestige and trust in any Church and its clergy is at a low ebb.  Many victims would be apprehensive about any spiritual counseling from a clergyman, seeing them as enablers of the wider societal pattern of abuse.  For a secular counsellor to recommend to a victim that they seek counselling from a priest or clergyman is fraught with all sorts of problems, not the least being the possible repercussion on the counsellor if a complaint is made to his/her superiors. Some  victims, of course, are happy to seek out spiritual counselling on their own.

I was thinking more along the lines of families being, by far and away, the source of the greatest percentage of sexual abuse in any society.  Is there spiritual help encouraged for children who have been victims of abuse in the home or from a trusted family member?...or does the same barrier apply?

Is talk therapy expected to be sufficient? 

How do you think secular health care deals with areas of forgiveness, for example, in cases of abuse where the abuser is the mother or the father, or if there is conflict between secular ideas of forgiveness and religious ideas of forgiveness?  This difference seems to be particularly glaring for Catholics and Orthodox who are expected to forgive and forget as God forgives and forgets.   In fact anyone who takes the Pater Noster seriously ought to have a real problem with secular talk therapy...don't you think?

For better or worse what you call "secular talk therapy" is what is available to all the population.   If a person desires something additional, some sort of religious therapy and counselling from a practitioner of religion, whether Christian or Muslim, they would need to make their own arrangements with whatever religious organisation they prefer.



I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary
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« Reply #427 on: August 09, 2010, 12:30:36 AM »


I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.
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« Reply #428 on: August 09, 2010, 12:48:07 AM »


I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.

Well I can tell you from experience that I have been helped much more from my Catholic spiritual life than I was ever helped by talk therapy.  In fact the talk therapy kept me from actually being able to forgive and escape the fury that comes with certain kinds of abuse over time.  It was not till I went through Carmelite formation and formation in the Fathers, through my own spiritual father that I was able to even begin to heal from post-traumatic stress symptoms and high anxiety.   And I've been able to help others as well as I learned how to manage on my own...without drugs and the roller-coaster ride that produces.  Some of the women that I work with have had to endure electro-shock treatments to help them "get over" bad interactions with their drug cocktails.  Now they live drug free.

So I must say that I think you have a pretty expansive view of secular talk therapy and a much too cramped opinion of Catholic spiritual practice.   I am sorry that your vision is so poor in this regard.  I thought we might have been able to talk a bit.

Sorry.  I'll know better than to ask next time.

Mary
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« Reply #429 on: August 09, 2010, 01:11:18 AM »


I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.

Well I can tell you from experience that I have been helped much more from my Catholic spiritual life than I was ever helped by talk therapy.  In fact the talk therapy kept me from actually being able to forgive and escape the fury that comes with certain kinds of abuse over time.  It was not till I went through Carmelite formation and formation in the Fathers, through my own spiritual father that I was able to even begin to heal from post-traumatic stress symptoms and high anxiety.   And I've been able to help others as well as I learned how to manage on my own...without drugs and the roller-coaster ride that produces.  Some of the women that I work with have had to endure electro-shock treatments to help them "get over" bad interactions with their drug cocktails.  Now they live drug free.

So I must say that I think you have a pretty expansive view of secular talk therapy and a much too cramped opinion of Catholic spiritual practice.   I am sorry that your vision is so poor in this regard.  I thought we might have been able to talk a bit.

Sorry.  I'll know better than to ask next time.


I am taking a quite pragmatic view based on my experiences in life and what is available by way of counselling to the ordinary person.

You seem to live in a very privileged universe.  Very few shopgirls or factory workers who have been raped have the ability or the intellectual nonce to access a Carmelite programme of formation and undertake a study of the Fathers.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but the world in which you live does not have much relevance to my work at the coal face nor the people to whom I must minister.  We are only small fry.  It is not that my "vision is so poor in this regard" but conducting a dialogue with you on this topic would be unreal to me.  You have been personally very blessed but I just do not know women (maybe 0.0001%) who can access your privileged world of Carmelite formation, etc. and integrate it into their healing process.

________________
Btw, I don't know if you are aware of it but your messages of late have taken on a superior air.   You imply, without too much subtlety, that other members (Stanley, Wyatt, Theistgirl and myself) are not so well educated as you, not so well read, not as sensitive as you, lacking in this and lacking in that.  In my case it is all absolutely true but do you have to rub my nose in it!!   laugh
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« Reply #430 on: August 09, 2010, 01:20:18 AM »


I was asking of you thought it was sufficient?

Do you think that secular therapy in some cases, particularly when it contradicts religious teaching, can be harmful?

Mary

In my life I have seen much harm come from wacko religious teaching, much much less from anything secular.


Is secular therapy sufficient?   My opinion is that it is good as far as it goes and so let's not ask of it more than it can give.    Whether or not to add in religious therapy is such a tricky question,  For example, if we look at John Romanides (I can hear you snorting fire!!) and Saint Justin Popovich their opinion is that the religious psychology of Western Christianity (whether it is Catholicism or Calvinism, Mormonism or Mennonism) is sick and "off base" and it can only do damage to a man religiously and psychologically.  It cannot cure, it can only make worse.

Well I can tell you from experience that I have been helped much more from my Catholic spiritual life than I was ever helped by talk therapy.  In fact the talk therapy kept me from actually being able to forgive and escape the fury that comes with certain kinds of abuse over time.  It was not till I went through Carmelite formation and formation in the Fathers, through my own spiritual father that I was able to even begin to heal from post-traumatic stress symptoms and high anxiety.   And I've been able to help others as well as I learned how to manage on my own...without drugs and the roller-coaster ride that produces.  Some of the women that I work with have had to endure electro-shock treatments to help them "get over" bad interactions with their drug cocktails.  Now they live drug free.

So I must say that I think you have a pretty expansive view of secular talk therapy and a much too cramped opinion of Catholic spiritual practice.   I am sorry that your vision is so poor in this regard.  I thought we might have been able to talk a bit.

Sorry.  I'll know better than to ask next time.


I am taking a quite pragmatic view based on my experiences in life and what is available by way of counselling to the ordinary person.

You seem to live in a very privileged universe.  Very few shopgirls or factory workers who have been raped have the ability or the intellectual nonce to access a Carmelite programme of formation and undertake a study of the Fathers.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but the world in which you live does not have much relevance to my work at the coal face nor the people to whom I must minister.  We are only small fry.  It is not that my "vision is so poor in this regard" but conducting a dialogue with you on this topic would be unreal to me.  You have been personally very blessed but I just do not know women (maybe 0.0001%) who can access your privileged world of Carmelite formation, etc. and integrate it into their healing process.

Don't you think its unwise to come on a verbal attack against someone who has already admitted to being abused to the point where interventions were necessary?

I would have thought your pastoral expertise would have precluded that.

BTW I live in a tiny rural town that is so small there is nothing here but a post office...in the middle of strip mining country in central PA, USA.

Ahwell...

M.
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« Reply #431 on: August 09, 2010, 06:17:51 AM »

[
Don't you think its unwise to come on a verbal attack against someone who has already admitted to being abused to the point where interventions were necessary?

I would have thought your pastoral expertise would have precluded that.


Mary, Heart of Oak, that was not a verbal attack.  It was explaining how I see your very unique and privileged situation with regards to access to the type of spiritual counselling which has helped you, but what you have had available is not available to 99.99% of women.  In a way, what I wrote to you was a compliment to your uniqueness, fortitude and intelligence.

However, that you should misinterpret it as an attack may be an indication that healing needs to continue..... and my sincere apologies for missing that.    I have always maintained that the internet is a lousy vehicle for counselling.  Please appreciate that I am not counselling you (God forbid I have such temerity!) but the opportunities for the type of misunderstanding which I fear in internet counselling are exampled by how you mistook my message.


O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psalm 29:2
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« Reply #432 on: August 09, 2010, 08:33:55 AM »

[
Don't you think its unwise to come on a verbal attack against someone who has already admitted to being abused to the point where interventions were necessary?

I would have thought your pastoral expertise would have precluded that.


Mary, Heart of Oak, that was not a verbal attack.  It was explaining how I see your very unique and privileged situation with regards to access to the type of spiritual counselling which has helped you, but what you have had available is not available to 99.99% of women.  In a way, what I wrote to you was a compliment to your uniqueness, fortitude and intelligence.

However, that you should misinterpret it as an attack may be an indication that healing needs to continue..... and my sincere apologies for missing that.    I have always maintained that the internet is a lousy vehicle for counselling.  Please appreciate that I am not counselling you (God forbid I have such temerity!) but the opportunities for the type of misunderstanding which I fear in internet counselling are exampled by how you mistook my message.


O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psalm 29:2

It does not take any special privilege to seek out spiritual healing of a healthy kind.  It would have been far better if you had asked me the circumstances in which I found my own.  There was no privilege about it, and others have and will continue to find it as well.  Some do not seek because they don't know how.  All I was asking you was for your thoughts on the matter.  I have them. 

That is all I have to say in this thread at the moment, since no one else really seems interested in a discussion that might go somewhere positive.

Thanks anyway.  Don't worry about anything.  Always best to know what's what for real.

M.
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« Reply #433 on: August 11, 2010, 05:44:17 PM »

Vatican rejects resignations of 2 Dublin bishops
AP – Wed Aug 11, 1:48 pm ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100811/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse
   
DUBLIN - Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has told priests that the Vatican has rejected the resignations of his two auxiliary bishops following their reported involvement in the Roman Catholic Church's cover-up of child abuse.
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« Reply #434 on: August 11, 2010, 07:36:08 PM »

Vatican rejects resignations of 2 Dublin bishops
AP – Wed Aug 11, 1:48 pm ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100811/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse
   
DUBLIN - Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has told priests that the Vatican has rejected the resignations of his two auxiliary bishops following their reported involvement in the Roman Catholic Church's cover-up of child abuse.
Not good.
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« Reply #435 on: August 11, 2010, 07:51:10 PM »

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/08/09/now-we-have-real-evidence-–-sexual-abuse-is-not-a-‘catholic-problem’/

By William Oddie on Monday, 9 August 2010

...The fact is, however, that not only is the Catholic Church NOT an endemically paedophile organisation, the evidence is now emerging that, in fact, even Newsweek is exaggerating: it’s not that “priests… abuse children at the same rate as everyone else”: actually, according to Dr Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University, “available research suggests that approximately two to five per cent of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor” which “is lower than the general adult male population” – in which the percentage of those who have interfered with minors “is best estimated to be closer to eight per cent”. In other words, children who have anything to do with priests are between 1.6 and four times LESS likely to be abused by them than by anyone else.


Post edited to enforce compliance with new forum policy against the copying and pasting of whole news articles (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852)

Text of full article can be read by clicking the link provided by poster  -PtA

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« Reply #436 on: August 12, 2010, 01:34:00 AM »


...The fact is, however, that not only is the Catholic Church NOT an endemically paedophile organisation, the evidence is now emerging that, in fact, even Newsweek is exaggerating: it’s not that “priests… abuse children at the same rate as everyone else”: actually, according to Dr Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University, “available research suggests that approximately two to five per cent of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor” which “is lower than the general adult male population” – in which the percentage of those who have interfered with minors “is best estimated to be closer to eight per cent”. In other words, children who have anything to do with priests are between 1.6 and four times LESS likely to be abused by them than by anyone else.


I think after providing these statistics, I am more alarmed. I already figured occurrences were less often with priests than the rest of the population, but I honestly expected it to be much less lower. The moral grounds a priest stands on should mean 0% of occurences. The religious rules they are supposed to be following also means there should be 0% occurences. Ultimately I thought the number would be less than 1%.

two to five percent?HuhHuh How many priests are there world wide, can you provide a number? How many unreported cases have occurred then?Huh?
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« Reply #437 on: August 12, 2010, 02:20:49 AM »

I think after providing these statistics, I am more alarmed. I already figured occurrences were less often with priests than the rest of the population, but I honestly expected it to be much less lower. The moral grounds a priest stands on should mean 0% of occurences. The religious rules they are supposed to be following also means there should be 0% occurences. Ultimately I thought the number would be less than 1%.

two to five percent?HuhHuh How many priests are there world wide, can you provide a number? How many unreported cases have occurred then?Huh?
Yes. I agree with you completely. It is shameful and disgusting.
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« Reply #438 on: August 12, 2010, 09:48:49 AM »


...The fact is, however, that not only is the Catholic Church NOT an endemically paedophile organisation, the evidence is now emerging that, in fact, even Newsweek is exaggerating: it’s not that “priests… abuse children at the same rate as everyone else”: actually, according to Dr Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University, “available research suggests that approximately two to five per cent of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor” which “is lower than the general adult male population” – in which the percentage of those who have interfered with minors “is best estimated to be closer to eight per cent”. In other words, children who have anything to do with priests are between 1.6 and four times LESS likely to be abused by them than by anyone else.


I think after providing these statistics, I am more alarmed. I already figured occurrences were less often with priests than the rest of the population, but I honestly expected it to be much less lower. The moral grounds a priest stands on should mean 0% of occurences. The religious rules they are supposed to be following also means there should be 0% occurences. Ultimately I thought the number would be less than 1%.

two to five percent?HuhHuh How many priests are there world wide, can you provide a number? How many unreported cases have occurred then?Huh?

Then...to make the comparison figures come out right... you'd have to account for all the fathers and mothers in families and brothers and sisters who abuse and go unreported...and extrapolate for all other societal figures as well...and I assure you that those numbers are legion!!....

And once you add the extrapolated figures of unreported cases, I would expect the Catholic Clergy figures to look even smaller!!  The unreported cases of family abuse would swamp everything else.

As the article there indicates, IF we really truly care about abused children, we better get off the Catholic hobby horse and start demanding equal time for ALL abusers and start suing cities who do not punish their offending employees.

But that would not be NEARLY so much fun for you because you'd have to put your real money where your mouth is now and start paying the taxes to pay off the law suits.

M.
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« Reply #439 on: August 12, 2010, 10:53:21 AM »

I'm reading a good book right now, Michael Rose's "Goodbye, Good Men", which goes a long way towards explaining these things.  It's ver chilling, very sad, reading about the type of people who have had control of RC seminaries for the last several decades.
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« Reply #440 on: August 12, 2010, 01:22:32 PM »

I'm reading a good book right now, Michael Rose's "Goodbye, Good Men", which goes a long way towards explaining these things.  It's ver chilling, very sad, reading about the type of people who have had control of RC seminaries for the last several decades.

Do you happen to have the publication date for that book?  I remember it.

M.
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« Reply #441 on: August 12, 2010, 04:06:56 PM »

I'm reading the hardback published in 2002.
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« Reply #442 on: August 12, 2010, 10:05:22 PM »

Theistgal,

What are some of the things you are learning about conditions in the seminaries?

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« Reply #443 on: August 12, 2010, 10:08:32 PM »

Theistgal,

What are some of the things you are learning about conditions in the seminaries?



To talk about the substance of that book would be a violation of a moratorium that is still in effect on the Forum.  A discussion of such a subject landed me in a penalty box for 60 days.

I doubt it would gain theistgal or you such a stiff penalty but it is probably best not to test my thesis.

M.
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« Reply #444 on: August 12, 2010, 10:38:49 PM »

Some things I can discuss without violating the moratorium are things like semiinarians being ridiculed and discouraged from traditional devotions lile the Rosary, Eucharistic adoration, wtc. - also the determination of many in control of the seminaries to discourage young men who express loyalty to the teachings of the Church in areas like all-male priesthood, etc.  Worth reading if you can get it.
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« Reply #445 on: August 12, 2010, 10:46:01 PM »

Some things I can discuss without violating the moratorium are things like semiinarians being ridiculed and discouraged from traditional devotions lile the Rosary, Eucharistic adoration, wtc. - also the determination of many in control of the seminaries to discourage young men who express loyalty to the teachings of the Church in areas like all-male priesthood, etc.  Worth reading if you can get it.

Oddly, and this is something I still have trouble understanding, not all seminaries were like this and it became well known which ones were more "liberal" and which were more traditional.  The situation seems to have improved some since this book went to print.

M.
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« Reply #446 on: August 12, 2010, 10:55:12 PM »

Yes, it's slowly turning around, but unfortunately there are still a whole lot of priests out there who've been ordained in the "bad" seminaries. It may take another couple of generations before all the damage is undone.  Thank God for the (relatively) undamaged Eastern Rites.
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« Reply #447 on: August 12, 2010, 11:17:48 PM »

Yes, it's slowly turning around, but unfortunately there are still a whole lot of priests out there who've been ordained in the "bad" seminaries. It may take another couple of generations before all the damage is undone.  Thank God for the (relatively) undamaged Eastern Rites.

Are you suggesting that we have currently a "whole lot" of priests who are sexual predators?

Is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of "bad" seminaries?

I know many good priests who had very very difficult time getting through suspect seminaries, but they are excellent priests.  In fact some of them are eastern Catholic priests.

Eastern Catholic seminaries are not all "good"...

M.
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« Reply #448 on: August 12, 2010, 11:23:16 PM »

Hmm ... I don't believe I mentioned sexual predators, Mary.  In fact, I specifically avoided that whole issue.  The liturgical abuses and poor theology are bad enough, don't you agree?
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« Reply #449 on: August 12, 2010, 11:27:10 PM »

Hmm ... I don't believe I mentioned sexual predators, Mary.  In fact, I specifically avoided that whole issue.  The liturgical abuses and poor theology are bad enough, don't you agree?

I was simply asking questions to clarify.  I mean we are talking under a topic heading focused on sexual abuse, so it is not really an unexpected focus...eh?

Again, is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of bad seminaries?

M.
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