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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 28576 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #360 on: July 04, 2010, 09:26:43 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.
Yes. I would recommend either a life sentence without parole in prison with hard labor, or possibly in some cases,  the death penalty for this type of crime. There are two different concepts - forgiveness and justice. Yes, we can forgive, and God will forgive a repentant sinner,  but in the end justice demands that society protect its children against this type of criminal.
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« Reply #361 on: July 04, 2010, 10:17:50 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
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« Reply #362 on: July 05, 2010, 07:36:52 AM »


Take no delight in the pruning and you'll be much closer to where I stand. 

I do not want to stand where you are standing.  It seems too unfeeling, hardhearted, maybe, understandably, self-protective.   I think we may all take a legitimate delight in the fact that the sexual abuse of children and adolescents has been curtailed by these events.   Certainly it gives great hope that it will not happen again, and certainly never on such a scale.   Whether this is achieved by the State or by the Church, what does it matter.  Let us rejoice in this.

Gaudeamus!  Let us rejoice in it as the world rejoiced with the destruction of Auschwitz, with the demolition of the Berlin Wall, with the ending of Communism.

Imagine the reverse scenario - what a horror if the abuse had continued to be covered up.  If it continued in secret and maybe grew and spread, a fungus poisoning the life of the Catholic Church and its priesthood.   
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« Reply #363 on: July 05, 2010, 09:45:00 AM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?
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« Reply #364 on: July 05, 2010, 03:00:39 PM »


Take no delight in the pruning and you'll be much closer to where I stand. 

I do not want to stand where you are standing.  It seems too unfeeling, hardhearted, maybe, understandably, self-protective.   I think we may all take a legitimate delight in the fact that the sexual abuse of children and adolescents has been curtailed by these events.   Certainly it gives great hope that it will not happen again, and certainly never on such a scale.   Whether this is achieved by the State or by the Church, what does it matter.  Let us rejoice in this.

Gaudeamus!  Let us rejoice in it as the world rejoiced with the destruction of Auschwitz, with the demolition of the Berlin Wall, with the ending of Communism.

Imagine the reverse scenario - what a horror if the abuse had continued to be covered up.  If it continued in secret and maybe grew and spread, a fungus poisoning the life of the Catholic Church and its priesthood.   

You cannot turn this one around on me, Father.  You don't know enough.  I work with families and individuals daily.  Forgiveness brings healing.  Prayer and contemplation and ascetic practice brings healing.  No one has time to be "delighted" or to shout "Gaudeamus!" when another priest goes down or when more cases of long term abuse are exposed.   Those who look back in anger or look with delight upon the degradation and suffering of another human soul are doomed to anger all their lives.

You call me hard-hearted but you are the one who would rather pay attention to how you feel rather than how others might actually be spiritually and psychologically.  You pay lip service to "caring" but I can see from your responses to me here that all it is is lip service.   I guess that most of the world responds that way.  As followers of Christ we are called to something less...jubilant when faced with the sinfulness of our brothers and sisters.

Mary
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« Reply #365 on: July 05, 2010, 03:00:44 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

"Moving the priest" was a strategy for managing what was thought to be a spiritual illness as much as a psychological one.  It is abundantly clear in the literature of the period that the SECULAR wisdom of the day was 1. that you could not trust the testimony of a child in such cases in the first place, and 2. that therapy would 'cure' a confirmed child molester and 3. that moving the priest out of the original environment would give him a better chance at "starting over."   All of that came out of the best secular wisdom of the mental health profession of the times.

Keeping a veil of secrecy in the Church over such accusations, initially,  was in response to the fact that there have always been false accusations leveled against priests for sexual misconduct.  I know of an number of local cases where priests where falsely accused because women were angry with the priest for one thing and another.  Some get angry because a priest will refuse the "pleasures" of their company.  How do I know?  Because women love to talk about such conquests.  It is not just the male of the species who become sexual predators.

Also you must be aware if you've read any of the case records for many of the priests who molested many many children over a long period of time that some of the cases, indeed, were reported to the police but because there was an inherent distrust of children's testimony, the police very often did nothing at all.  So the presumption that the cases were never reported or the secular world would have done something is purely ignorance of the facts.  Since you have such strong opinions, I expect you are not ignorant of the facts.

I live in an area where sexual crimes are very often still blamed on the victim while the criminal is treated very carefully to preserve his or her rights.  And not all released sex offenders make it on the list of known offenders, and some communities are more prone to having the known predators "dumped" into local housing because the areas are poor and rural.

So if you think the secular world is enlightened then perhaps you actually do need to go on a fact finding mission.  But till you do that and get your facts straight, there's no point in discussing a REAL set of remedial actions and preventative actions.

Mary 



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« Reply #366 on: July 05, 2010, 03:00:47 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

Some facts:

http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-yorks-times-and-all-news-thats.html
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« Reply #367 on: July 05, 2010, 07:07:26 PM »

I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.

Sure, you could encourage men to follow the spiritual practice of celibacy or monasticism, but you can throw it out as a forced requirement, since you can have a Spiritual Father and Mother for your church family.

The practice itself should not be a forced requirement simply because it is a nice custom, any more than requiring women to wear veils should be. I see more sense in requiring women to wear veils since it says it in the New Testament, while we know that marriages existed among Wetsern church leaders in the early church. So I disagree with it as a forced requirement. I mean it's your church you can do what you want. It just seems to me that Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic model is better for several reasons.

We are Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. We don't need to follow the spiritual practices of your church.

Correct. However, it seems that if the absolute celibacy requirement came about in 500 AD, then an attempt to get back to the authentic Christianity of the early church would suggest allowing married priests. Existence of married Eastern Catholic clergy should allow that this is a doctrinal possibility, and if abuse rates are higher among rites with forced celibacy, the abuse seems to be additional persuasion, in addition to general doctrinal reasons.

To use another possible analogy, the use of indulgences might have been debated in medieval Catholicism, but the abuse of the practice seems to suggest against it at all.

Likewise, what many Eastern Catholics see as the Pope's abuse of discretion in dealing with eastern Catholicism in medieval times seems to me to suggest that the Pope lacks a special ability to be infallible on matters of faith.

The issues: indulgences, forced celibacy, Papal infallibility might be argued philosophically either way, but some abuses in practice seem to mitigate against them further.
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« Reply #368 on: July 05, 2010, 07:19:21 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

Some facts:

http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-yorks-times-and-all-news-thats.html
Thanks for the link to a rather tedious missive to the greater glory of Joseph Ratzinger. Now, how does this explain why priests who have molested children not be faced with criminal prosecution in civil courts or that church officials who transfered known abusers not bew held liable?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 07:19:45 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #369 on: July 05, 2010, 09:32:24 PM »

I live in an area where sexual crimes are very often still blamed on the victim while the criminal is treated very carefully to preserve his or her rights.  And not all released sex offenders make it on the list of known offenders, and some communities are more prone to having the known predators "dumped" into local housing because the areas are poor and rural.

So if you think the secular world is enlightened then perhaps you actually do need to go on a fact finding mission.  But till you do that and get your facts straight, there's no point in discussing a REAL set of remedial actions and preventative actions.

Right. That is why the church is supposed to be a place of protection, POKROV, for kids from bad things in the world.
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« Reply #370 on: July 05, 2010, 09:53:51 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.

The secular world is also where they let sex offenders loose and they break free of the system and commit both murder and mayhem.  It is a system that brutalizes any victim brave enough to enter the system looking for redress for a sexual offense.  It is the system that attempts to but fails to track the second and third time offender and fails to protect the poor upon whom these sick men prey with impunity.

I think you need to go and read a simple basic set of studies on sex offenders in America...if you can find a reliable one without a road map.

And it is still the case that most attacks go unreported.

Mary
And the church world is where offenders have been moved around so they can brutalize over and over again. At least they are away from children for the time they are in prison.
As far as unreoprted crimes, well a crime has to be reported before it can be prosecuted. If some one doesn't report a crime how are the athorities supposed to know about it?
So what's your answer Mary, just let the church "forgive" them so they can go on thier merry way?

Some facts:

http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-yorks-times-and-all-news-thats.html
Thanks for the link to a rather tedious missive to the greater glory of Joseph Ratzinger. Now, how does this explain why priests who have molested children not be faced with criminal prosecution in civil courts or that church officials who transfered known abusers not bew held liable?

You already have answers to why priests were transferred in years gone by.

No one is saying that they should not be faced with criminal prosecution when due process determines there is sufficient evidence to indict them in a court of civil law.

Mary

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« Reply #371 on: July 05, 2010, 09:53:52 PM »

I live in an area where sexual crimes are very often still blamed on the victim while the criminal is treated very carefully to preserve his or her rights.  And not all released sex offenders make it on the list of known offenders, and some communities are more prone to having the known predators "dumped" into local housing because the areas are poor and rural.

So if you think the secular world is enlightened then perhaps you actually do need to go on a fact finding mission.  But till you do that and get your facts straight, there's no point in discussing a REAL set of remedial actions and preventative actions.

Right. That is why the church is supposed to be a place of protection, POKROV, for kids from bad things in the world.

Yes.  And what does NOT get said is that even with the offenses of the past 60 years or more, the Church is still safer than the secular world and it is the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur.

Mary
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« Reply #372 on: July 06, 2010, 12:46:36 AM »



You cannot turn this one around on me, Father.  You don't know enough.  I work with families and individuals daily. 


Presumptuous , Mary.

Form 1989 to 2000 I worked intensively with the homeless in the central city, mainly with young people, streetkids who were solvent abusers, and with older homeless people, alcoholics.  For four years I ran a nine-bedroomed home for streetkids-solvent abusers.  The house was kindly lent to me by a Russian woman whose father had used it for Russian DPs.   In nearly all cases there was some history of sexual abuse.   
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« Reply #373 on: July 06, 2010, 03:28:42 AM »

When Judges Impersonate Theologians

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343973?eng=y

In Belgium they searched the tombs of the bishops, in the United States they're summoning the pope for trial. A transformation of legal culture and court practice is on the horizon. The analysis of Professor Pietro De Marco

by Sandro Magister

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« Reply #374 on: July 06, 2010, 03:53:48 AM »


... the Church is still safer than the secular world and it is the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur.

Mary

"the Church is .... the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur."

I see this as a most alarming statement and one which is self-evidentially wrong.  Even if Mary is restricting it to Roman Catholics, we would need to ask if the Catholics who do not resort to their Church for psychological and spiritual healing are unable to find such healing?  Are they outside the possibility of real healing?

And we surely cannot believe that victims of sexual abuse who are not members of the Catholic Church, Methodists, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists,... are unable to find "real psychological and spiritual healing."  Are they really beyond the possibility of real healing which, according to Mary, can be found ONLY in her Church?

I would like to ask Mary directly..... Mary, in your real life work with abused women and children have you truly found that those who do not seek healing in the Roman Catholic Church have been unable to receive "real psychological and spiritual healing"?   
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« Reply #375 on: July 06, 2010, 10:53:42 AM »


... the Church is still safer than the secular world and it is the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur.

Mary

"the Church is .... the ONLY place where real psychological and spiritual healing can occur."

I see this as a most alarming statement and one which is self-evidentially wrong.  Even if Mary is restricting it to Roman Catholics, we would need to ask if the Catholics who do not resort to their Church for psychological and spiritual healing are unable to find such healing?  Are they outside the possibility of real healing?

And we surely cannot believe that victims of sexual abuse who are not members of the Catholic Church, Methodists, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists,... are unable to find "real psychological and spiritual healing."  Are they really beyond the possibility of real healing which, according to Mary, can be found ONLY in her Church?

I would like to ask Mary directly..... Mary, in your real life work with abused women and children have you truly found that those who do not seek healing in the Roman Catholic Church have been unable to receive "real psychological and spiritual healing"?   


Yes.  Secular therapy is not sufficient to bring wounded souls to full freedom from the ghosts of their past, without the use of mind altering drugs that have a limited efficacy and sometimes turn on the patient in which case they can end up on much worse shape.  Sometimes the triggers for neurotic or psychotic episodes over-ride the effects of both talk therapy or pharmaceuticals.

The ascetic life in Christ seems to be the best medicine for those who have suffered trauma, some kinds of addictions, exposure to demonic influences, etc.    What I am try to indicate is that for believing Catholics who have not developed some kind of deep-rooted hate for the Church, the Church is a far better hospital for them than the secular mental health system.  Very often those who approach me are referred to me precisely because they have tried all other avenues and gained no real relief, primarily because the idea of purification of the memory, in Christian terms, is alien to our secular system of mental health.  If the person has a livid hatred of the Catholic Church, I have developed relationships with Orthodox sources over the years that have come through to help some of these people do in their lives what secular therapy could not help them to do.

Mary
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« Reply #376 on: July 06, 2010, 01:34:58 PM »

The church considers that it has the fullness of the faith, so perhaps there are some spiritual things one church might understand better than anyone else. Further, public schools in strong Calvinist areas of the US South continue to beat students. Meanwhile, Catholic dioceses all across America have abolished corporal punishment.



On the flip side: It seems to me that just as a medical doctor might clear up a throat sickness as sufficiently as Catholicism's laying-on-of-candles-to-the-throat-ritual, it's possible that someone experienced in dealing with psychological addictions might be just as able to deal with this. Perhaps there is a "good samaritan" situation, where a nonChristian can help someone heal psychologically.

I could add that someone could launch a secular campaign to provide shelters for abused kids and get out the message that abuse is wrong. The church has the same message, but it's possible that the parishes in a certain area don't provide these services, or give as strong advice. I could imagine in the 19th century, the advice from some Catholic parishes to abused kids might be just to pray about it, forgive, don't resist.

A friend from my OCA parish in a public school remembers one day a Catholic nun came as a substitute. She hit everyone on the hand with a ruler, some people harder than others, for what they had not done "yet."


So I am not sure we can have blind faith that the parishes in your area are the best place to deal with certain issues, although the general principles and teachings of Christianity and the Church are very powerful for such healing.
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« Reply #377 on: July 06, 2010, 11:32:56 PM »



You cannot turn this one around on me, Father.  You don't know enough.  I work with families and individuals daily. 


Presumptuous , Mary.

Form 1989 to 2000 I worked intensively with the homeless in the central city, mainly with young people, streetkids who were solvent abusers, and with older homeless people, alcoholics.  For four years I ran a nine-bedroomed home for streetkids-solvent abusers.  The house was kindly lent to me by a Russian woman whose father had used it for Russian DPs.   In nearly all cases there was some history of sexual abuse.   

Yes.  I am aware of this.  That is why I find your reactions to me to be so strange.

M.
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« Reply #378 on: July 07, 2010, 12:11:17 AM »

Vatican to issue long-awaited sex abuse document

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100706/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse;_ylt=Al9VEwJmI6NCC1ssB_z5tA5vaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTJvdWlvczVsBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNzA2L2V1X3ZhdGljYW5fY2h1cmNoX2FidXNlBGNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawN2YXRpY2FudG9pc3M-



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EmailPrint.. AP – Pope Benedict XVI, flanked by his secretary Monsignor Georg Gaenswein, delivers his blessing during a …
. Slideshow:Church Abuse Allegations .
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – Tue Jul 6, 5:46 pm ET
VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI will soon issue a document outlining the church's procedures for handling clerical sex abuse cases that will gather the norms now in use and make them permanent and legally binding, a Vatican official and canon lawyer said Tuesday.

The "instruction" from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been in the works for some time. But its impending publication has taken on new relevance amid the abuse scandal that has roiled the Vatican for months, with hundreds of new cases coming to light of priests who raped and sodomized children, bishops who covered up for them and Vatican officials who turned a blind eye.

The norms concern the canonical procedures for dealing with abusive priests, with penalties as severe as being dismissed from the clerical state. Separately, the Vatican issued informal guidelines earlier this year saying bishops should follow civil reporting laws in terms of reporting abuse to police.

It's unclear whether the new set of norms will include any reference to civil reporting requirements. Since such requirements vary from country to country, it would be difficult to make reference to them in a document that is canonically binding on the church around the globe, noted the Rev. Davide Cito, a canon lawyer and consultant at the Congregation.

The norms now in place have been modified and updated from a 2001 Vatican document and set of procedures issued by Pope John Paul II outlining how the church should handle the abuse of minors by priests.

The 2001 documents require bishops to report credible accusations of abusive priests to the Congregation, which then decides how to proceed, including through a full canonical trial. In 2003 — a year after the U.S. abuse scandal exploded — the norms were amended to speed up administrative penalties against abusive clerics where the evidence them is overwhelming, among other things.

But those 2003 modifications were ad hoc and temporary in nature and had to be reconfirmed, for example, by Benedict after John Paul died in 2005. By gathering them together and including them now in an official, binding document, they become permanent church law.

As a result, the new instruction is expected to contain little that goes beyond what is currently the practice of the Congregation, Cito said. The instruction, for example, is expected to formally extend the 10-year statute of limitations for abuse cases that was imposed for the first time in the 2001 procedures. But those limits have been waived on a case-by-case basis already since 2002 since the 10-year limit was deemed too short.

In addition, downloading child pornography from the Internet is expected to be included as a "grave" canonical crime for the first time in a Vatican instruction. That said, the Congregation's sex crimes prosecutor, Monsignor Charles Scicluna, has written that the Congregation for several years has considered it such in practice.

A Vatican official declined to give a date for the instruction's publication, but said it was expected in the near future. Cito said he understood the document had already been signed by Benedict, who on Wednesday moves to the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo for the rest of the summer.

Amid the current scandal, the 2001 norms have been held up by Vatican officials as evidence of Benedict's get-tough attitude to pedophile priests, since he was prefect of the Congregation at the time and signed a letter accompanying the documents to bishops around the world. The former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, though, was known to be far more concerned with matters of faith than technical canonical procedures.
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« Reply #379 on: July 08, 2010, 08:20:01 PM »

Suit brought against McCormack, priest alleges molestation


http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2479574,catholic-priests-molest-lawsuit-070810.article
July 8, 2010

BY LISA DONOVAN Staff Reporter
A man who alleges he was molested repeatedly in grade school and high school by defrocked Roman Catholic priest and convicted sexual abuser Daniel McCormack filed a lawsuit Thursday against the Archdiocese of Chicago.

The man — listed only as James C. Doe — alleges in the lawsuit filed Thursday in Cook County Circuit Court that the abuse began in 2000 when he was in 7th grade at Our Lady of the West Side elementary school, which sits on the St. Agatha parish campus and continued for roughly the next six years.

“Through his junior or senior year in high school (2004-2006), McCormack maintained a sexually abusive relationship with Doe,” according to the lawsuit.

The plaintiff not only attended school but also played basketball at Our Lady of the West Side, where McCormack taught and coached.

McCormack, 41, received a five-year prison term after pleading guilty in 2007 to charges he fondled five boys at the parish and school. It was unclear from court papers whether the boy in this case was among the five victims in the criminal case. McCormack remains behind bars today.

The suit alleges the archdiocese and Cardinal Francis George “breached the duties of reasonable care” by allowing McCormack to become a priest and then moving him to various parishes, even as sex abuse allegations dogged him in the seminary and priesthood, according to the lawsuit.

The most damning allegation in the suit is that McCormack continued to abuse the boy even after police questioned McCormack about a sex abuse case in 2005 and his church superiors ordered him not to have contact with minors.

The suit seeks at least $50,000 in damages.

A spokeswoman said the archdiocese doesn’t comment on pending litigation.

In 2008, the Archdiocese of Chicago paid $1.2 million and $2.8 million apiece to settle lawsuits brought by the family of two brothers molested by McCormack.
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« Reply #380 on: July 08, 2010, 08:28:49 PM »

Archbishop Chaput: Pope is not CEO and bishops are not his employees
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-chaput-pope-is-not-ceo-and-bishops-are-not-his-employees/






Denver, Colo., May 26, 2010 / 03:00 pm (CNA).- In the midst of lawsuits attempting the implicate the Vatican for the failure of individual bishops to properly handle clerical sex abuse cases, Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver stated the the Pope “is not a global CEO” to be held liable, given that bishops are not “his agents or employees.” Instead, he wrote, the Church is “much closer to a confederation of families than to a modern corporation.”

The Denver prelate made his remarks in a First Things article on Wednesday. He began by addressing some of the common misconceptions about Church authority, relating how some Catholics who live in other dioceses have assumed that he has the authority solve a problem in their area. Those parishioners, he said, have even gotten “annoyed” with him for not becoming involved with issues outside his jurisdiction.

“I have neither the authority nor the bad sense to meddle in the life of a sister local Church,” he said, adding that he won't “intrude on the ministry of a brother bishop,” who is “the chief teaching and governing authority in his own local Church.”

Turning to the Pope, Archbishop Chaput wrote, “the bishop of Rome is uniquely different.” “He is first among brothers; yet he also has real authority as pastor of the whole Church.”

“But he is not a global CEO, and Catholic bishops are not – and never have been – his agents or 'employees,'” the  prelate stressed. “It's useful to remember this today as lawyers try ingeniously to draw the Vatican into America's on-going sex-abuse saga.”

Archbishop Chaput then referred to the case where attorney William McMurry is attempting to lodge a federal lawsuit against the Vatican in Louisville, Kentucky.

McMurry is seeking class-action status for a case involving three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago. He also represented 243 sex abuse victims who settled with the Archdiocese of Louisville in 2003 for $25.3 million.

“In O'Bryan vs. the Holy See, currently being heard in U.S. district court in Kentucky,” the archbishop wrote, “plaintiffs' attorneys seek to depose Vatican officials – including potentially the Pope himself – to determine what they knew and allegedly ignored or covered up about the handling of clergy sex-abuse cases by American bishops.” 

“The plaintiffs' legal argument hinges on the premise that bishops are, in effect, Roman-controlled employees or officials,” he added. “But that argument is not merely false in practice; it is also revolutionary in its consequences. In effect, it seeks to redefine the nature of the Church in a manner favorable to plaintiffs' attorneys, but alien to her actual structure and identity.”

“To put it another way,” Archbishop Chaput said, “plaintiffs' attorneys want a federal court to tell the Church who she really is, whether she agrees or not, and then to penalize her for being what she isn't.”

“Every bishop in the United States has a filial love for the Holy Father and a fraternal respect for his brother bishops,” he continued. “But these family-like words – filial, fraternal, brother – are not mere window-dressing. They go to the heart of how the Catholic community understands and organizes itself, and more importantly, how the Church actually conducts herself, guided by her own theology and canon law.”

“The Church is much closer to a confederation of families than to a modern corporation,” the Denver  archbishop explained. “And this has real, everyday results. In practice, the influence of the Holy See on the daily life of the Archdiocese of Denver is strong in matters of faith and morals.” 

“But in the operational decisions of our local Church, the Holy See’s influence is remote. In 22 years as a bishop, my problems have never included a controlling or intrusive Vatican.” 

“We live in ironic times,” Archbishop Chaput remarked. “Critics of the Catholic Church in the 19th century conjured up a monolithic Roman Church to frighten America's Protestant masses. Today – when that Roman strawman is even less believable – they rather like the idea of the Catholic Church as a Vatican-controlled monolith, no matter how far that myth is from real Church life, the better to sue her.”
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« Reply #381 on: July 08, 2010, 08:36:02 PM »

Pope targets priests who abuse mentally impaired


http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/2477904,pope-targets-mentally-impaired-abuse-070810.article
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« Reply #382 on: July 08, 2010, 09:34:21 PM »


Dear Stashko,

Thank you for these most recent articles.  They are of great interest to me and it is helpful to have you tracking them!

One of the things I'd like you to tuck away in the back of your mind as you read and watch things unfolding, is that all along throughout the 20th century, there have been priests jailed for sexual crimes.  All matters of public record.  It was not at all a totally blank slate till things broke open at the turn of the century.

So my question all along has been, why some?, and not others?  Is there a pattern within specific dioceses?....of course there have been patterns, and for good reason.  Attempts to shine light on these things MUST be excruciating mindful of addressing only that which is real and demonstrable, regardless of what the rest of the secular world decides they want to do while chasing down the almighty dollar....

And there must be some strong mechanism established in the new order of doing things that guards against false witness against a good man and priest.  That must be given most serious attention.

M.
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« Reply #383 on: July 10, 2010, 09:51:17 PM »

"The Fall of the Belgian Church"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4471

This is so awful that I just don't know what comments to make.  Read it for yourselves please

The article is also on Alexandra Colen's own website
http://www.alexandracolen.nu/
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« Reply #384 on: July 11, 2010, 10:51:05 PM »

"The Fall of the Belgian Church"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4471

This is so awful that I just don't know what comments to make.  Read it for yourselves please
Quote
The sympathy for pedophile attitudes and arguments among the Belgian bishops during this period was no secret, especially since 1997 when the fierce controversy about the catechism textbook Roeach made the headlines. The editors of Roeach were Prof. Jef Bulckens of the Catholic University of Leuven and Prof. Frans Lefevre of the Seminary of Bruges. This “catechism textbook” was used in the catechism lessons in the catholic schools, until one day I discovered it among the schoolbooks of my eldest daughter, then 13 years old. The textbook contained a drawing which showed a naked baby girl saying: “Stroking my XXXXXX makes me feel groovy,” “I like to take my knickers off with friends,” “I want to be in the room when mum and dad XXXXXX.” The drawing also shows a naked little boy and girl that are “playing doctor” and the little boy says: “Look, my XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.”

There were schools where children... had to watch videos showing techniques of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On 18 March 1998 a group of two hundred parents went to the Papal Nuncio, the ambassador of the Vatican, in Brussels. But the Nuncio, who was a friend of Danneels, also refused to meet us. He had, however, alerted the police, who had several water cannons at the ready just around the corner.

WHAT?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #385 on: July 11, 2010, 11:00:37 PM »

"The Fall of the Belgian Church"

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4471

This is so awful that I just don't know what comments to make.  Read it for yourselves please

The article is also on Alexandra Colen's own website
http://www.alexandracolen.nu/
Who in the world is Alexandra Colen? Huh
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« Reply #386 on: July 11, 2010, 11:04:55 PM »

Quote
I told Cardinal Danneels that, although I was a member of Parliament for the Flemish-secessionist party Vlaams Blok, I was addressing him as a Catholic parent

Could be a fringe thing, I don't know. Still, if her allegations are true...
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« Reply #387 on: July 12, 2010, 04:27:03 AM »

Quote
I told Cardinal Danneels that, although I was a member of Parliament for the Flemish-secessionist party Vlaams Blok, I was addressing him as a Catholic parent

Could be a fringe thing, I don't know. Still, if her allegations are true...
It might explain why the Belgian police had to act against the Catholic Church in Belgium as it did. I mean, if there are pedophiles in the Catholic Belgian clergy who are promoting pedophilia by requiring children to study pornographic and perverted catechisms, then why shouldn't the police investigate and bring criminal charges? However, I would like to see some confirmation of these allegations. How widespread was the use of this perverted catechism in the Belgian Catholic Church?
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« Reply #388 on: July 15, 2010, 10:03:33 AM »

Vatican issues new sex abuse norms after crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100715/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse



By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 31 mins ago
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican issued a new set of norms Thursday to respond to the worldwide clerical abuse scandal, cracking down on priests who rape and molest minors and the mentally disabled.

The norms extend from 10 to 20 years the statute of limitations on priestly abuse and also codify for the first time that possessing or distributing child pornography is a canonical crime.

But the document made no mention of the need for bishops to report abuse to police and doesn't include any "one-strike and you're out" policy as demanded by some victims' groups.

The document also listed the attempted ordination of a woman as a "grave crime" to be handled by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, just as sex abuse is. Critics have complained that including both in the same document implied equating them.

The congregation's norms marked the first major document to be issued by the Vatican since the clerical abuse scandal erupted earlier this year with hundreds of new cases coming to light of priests who molested children, bishops who covered up for them and Vatican officials who turned a blind eye for decades.

The church's internal justice system for dealing with abuse allegations came under attack because of claims by victims that their accusations were long ignored by bishops more concerned about protecting the church and by the congregation, which was headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger from 1981 until he was elected pope in 2005.

The bulk of the new document merely codified the ad hoc norms for dealing canonically with pedophile priests that have been in use since the first major overhaul of norms came in 2001 and subsequent updates in 2002 and 2003, making them permanent and legally binding.

"That is a step forward because the norm of law is binding and is certain," said Monsignor Charles Scicluna, the Vatican's sex crimes prosecutor.

But Barbara Dorris of the Survivors' Network for Those Abused by Priests, a leading group representing victims of clerical sex abuse, said the new guidelines "can be summed up in three words: missing the boat.

"They deal with one small procedure at the very tail end of the problem: defrocking pedophile priests," she said.

"Relatively few kids have actually been sexually assaulted because predator priests weren't defrocked quickly enough," she said. "Hundreds of thousands of kids, however, have been sexually violated (by) many other more damaging and reckless moves by bishops and other church staff."

The 10-year statute of limitations, for example, has routinely been extended on a case by case basis and will continue to be even beyond the new 20-year limit set forth in the document, the text said. Acquiring, selling or possessing child pornography has also been considered a grave canonical crime for several years, Scicluna has said.

New elements in the text, as first reported last week by The Associated Press, include treating priests who sexually abuse an adult who "habitually lacks the use of reason" with the same set of sanctions as those who abuse minors. Punishments can include being dismissed from the clerical state.

The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest who tries to ordain her. That is repeated in the new document, adding that the priest can also be punished by being dismissed from the clerical state.

At a briefing Thursday, Scicluna said that including the two canonical crimes, sex abuse and ordination of women, in the same document was not equating them but was done to just codify the most serious canonical crimes against sacraments and morals that the congregation deals with.

For example, in addition to sex abuse, the document also includes crimes against the sacraments including desecrating the Eucharist, violating the seal of the confessional and for the first time, apostasy, heresy and schism. Attempting to ordain a woman violates the sacrament of holy orders and was therefore included, Scicluna said.

"They are grave, but on different levels," he said.
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« Reply #389 on: July 15, 2010, 04:59:33 PM »





Vatican revises its rules on clerical sex abuse
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100715/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_church_abuse





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By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – 29 mins ago
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican revised its in-house rules to deal with clerical sex abuse cases Thursday, targeting priests who molest the mentally disabled as well as children and doubling the statute of limitations for such crimes.

Abuse victims said the rules are little more than administrative housekeeping since they made few substantive changes to current practice, and what is needed are bold new rules to punish bishops who shield pedophiles.

Women's ordination groups criticized the new rules because they included the attempted ordination of women as a "grave crime" subject to the same set of procedures and punishments meted out for sex abuse.

The rules, which cover the canonical procedures and penalties for the most serious sacramental and moral crimes, were issued as the Vatican confronts one of the worst scandals in recent history: revelations of hundreds of new cases of priests who raped and sodomized children, bishops who covered up for them, and Vatican officials who stood by passively for decades.

In 2003, the Vatican streamlined its 2001 procedures for disciplining abusive priests, allowing them to be defrocked without a lengthy canonical trial if the evidence against them was overwhelming. The rules issued Thursday codified those procedures into church law.

"That is a step forward, because the norm of law is binding and is certain," Monsignor Charles Scicluna, the Vatican's sex crimes prosecutor, told reporters. But he acknowledged that the document was just a set of rules whose application was critical.

"It does not solve all the problems," Scicluna said. "It is a very important instrument, but it is the way you use the instrument that is going to have the real effect."

While the bulk of the document codifies existing practice, some new elements were introduced: priests who possess or distribute child pornography and those who sexually abuse developmentally disabled adults will be subject to the same procedures and punishments as priests who molest minors.

The new rules extend the statute of limitations for handling of priestly abuse cases from 10 years to 20 years after the victim's 18th birthday, and the statute of limitations can be extended beyond that on a case-by-case basis. Such extensions have been routine for years but now the waivers are codified.

But the new rules make no mention of the need for bishops to report clerical sex abuse to police, provide no canonical sanctions for bishops who cover up for abusers, and do not include any "zero tolerance" policy for pedophile priests as demanded by some victims.

"The first thing the church should be doing is reporting crimes to civil authorities," said Andrew Madden, a former Dublin altar boy who filed the first public abuse lawsuit against the church in Ireland in 1995.

"That's far, far more important than deciding whether a criminal priest should be defrocked or not," he told The Associated Press in Dublin. "The church's internal rules are no more important than the rules of your local golf club."

Scicluna defended the absence of any mention of the need to report abuse to police, saying all Christians were required to obey civil laws that would already demand sex crimes be reported.

The Vatican noted that bishops were reminded of this duty in a set of informal guidelines issued earlier this year and that its Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which handles sex crime allegations, was working with bishops' conferences around the world to develop more "rigorous, coherent and effective" guidelines.

"If civil law requires you report, you must obey civil law," Scicluna said. But "it's not for canonical legislation to get itself involved with civil law."

Victims' groups and others have accused the church's internal justice system of failing to deal credibly with abuse allegations, allowing bishops to ignore complaints in order to protect the church, and keeping its canonical trials so secretive that victims believed they couldn't go to police.

Barbara Dorris, of Survivors' Network for Those Abused by Priests, said the new guidelines "can be summed up in three words: missing the boat."

"They deal with one small procedure at the very tail end of the problem: defrocking pedophile priests," she said. "Hundreds of thousands of kids, however, have been sexually violated (by) many other more damaging and reckless moves by bishops and other church staff."

Pope Benedict XVI should have taken the opportunity to threaten bishops who shield abusers and tell bishops to stop lobbying legislatures against extending the statute of limitations on abuse cases, said Anne Barrett Doyle of BishopAccountability.org, which compiles data on clerical abuse.

"Of course it's right that the viewing of child pornography be recognized as a grave crime inside the church," she said in a statement. "But practically speaking, no child will be safer because a secret church tribunal finds a priest guilty of viewing pornography."

But Bishop Blase Cupich, head of the U.S. bishops' child protection committee, said the new instruction brings a clarity to the process that will allow church leaders around the world and Vatican officials to resolve abuse claims more quickly. He said he was encouraged that lay people with expertise in church law can serve on church tribunals for accused priests.

Cupich rejected complaints that the instruction didn't go far enough. By including offenses involving child pornography and victimizing mentally impaired adults, the new document will help dioceses worldwide confront abusers, he said.

"It'll send a very clear message to the bishops around the world that this is the way it's going to be done," Cupich said. "It makes it clear and also provides more resources for the quick adjudication of these cases."

But with so few real changes, Scicluna said he didn't expect a flood of cases to come forward, as happened in 2003-04 after the abuse scandal exploded in the United States and some 80 percent of the 3,000 cases handled by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith were opened.

The congregation was headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger from 1981 until he was elected pope in 2005. Its procedures call for canonical trials or administrative punishments which can result in a priest being dismissed from the clerical state.

Recent efforts by civic authorities to investigate abuse allegations have again cast a spotlight on the Vatican's in-house penalties for acts that are criminally prosecutable in most of the world: Just last month, police raided the Brussels archbishop's residence and seized boxes of documents as part of an investigation into clerical sex abuse amid concerns the Belgian church was protecting pedophiles.

The rules list the attempted ordination of a woman as a "grave crime" to be handled according to the same procedures as sex abuse — despite arguments that grouping the two in the same document would imply equating them.

"The idea that women seeking to spread the message of God somehow defiles the Eucharist reveals an antiquated, backward church that still views women as unclean and unholy," said Erin Saiz Hanna, executive director of the Women's Ordination Conference, a U.S.-based organization that works to ordain women as priests, deacons and bishops.

Pope Benedict has said the question of ordaining women — often raised as an antidote to the priest shortage and to bring about more gender equality — is not up for discussion.

The Vatican in 2007 issued a decree saying the attempted ordination of women would result in automatic excommunication for the woman and the priest trying to ordain her. That is repeated in the new document, adding that the priest can also be defrocked — a permanent punishment, whereas an excommunication can be lifted if the person expresses sorrow for what he or she did.

Scicluna defended the inclusion of both sex abuse and ordination of women in the same document as a way of codifying two of the most serious canonical crimes against sacraments and morals that the congregation deals with. Also included are other sacramental crimes, including desecrating the Eucharist and — for the first time — heresy, apostasy and schism.

Clerical abuse is "an egregious violation of moral law," Scicluna said. "An attempted ordination of a woman is grave, but on another level: It is a wound, it is an attempt against the Catholic faith on the sacrament of (holy) orders. So they are grave, but on different levels."

Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, the dean of Germany's bishops conference, welcomed the new guidelines as a clear signal stressing that cases of sexual abuse of children and youths have to be thoroughly investigated and punished.

"The injustice of the past is being cleared, and the conclusions for the present and the future are being drawn," he said in a statement.

Benedict's native Germany has seen a flood of abuse allegations surface, and even his own tenure as archbishop of Munich has come under scrutiny since a pedophile priest in his archdiocese was allowed to resume pastoral work while being treated.
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« Reply #390 on: July 24, 2010, 02:20:46 AM »

I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
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« Reply #391 on: July 24, 2010, 03:13:31 AM »

I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?
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« Reply #392 on: July 24, 2010, 04:42:50 AM »

I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?


While the Pope may live in a foreign country and not in Rome yet I thought that Rome was his own diocese.   How can any scandals in his own diocese not be close to the Pope?
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« Reply #393 on: July 25, 2010, 04:20:36 PM »

I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?


While the Pope may live in a foreign country and not in Rome yet I thought that Rome was his own diocese.   How can any scandals in his own diocese not be close to the Pope?

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« Reply #394 on: August 05, 2010, 08:06:46 PM »

In purely scientific terms, we are monkeys too.
Not exactly true. We and monkeys are both primates. Saying we are monkeys is like saying lizards are turtles. They are both members of the order lepidosauria, yes, but they are hardly the same. In the same way, humans (family hominidae) and monkeys (families cebidae and aotidae) are both part of order primata, but we are indeed very different from each other.
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« Reply #395 on: August 05, 2010, 08:08:09 PM »

I just learned from a Catholic sister that the scandal has erupted today in Italy with newspaper reports.  Have not yet checked the news sites as yet.  I am not even sure if I want to.  It is all a bit much!  This brings the pressure even closer to the Pope.
What scandal are you talking about now? Is it the one with the videos of priests in (***) bars? I don;t see this as being close to the Pope?


While the Pope may live in a foreign country and not in Rome yet I thought that Rome was his own diocese.   How can any scandals in his own diocese not be close to the Pope?
Yes. I think you are correct here.
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« Reply #396 on: August 06, 2010, 05:46:08 AM »

in case anyone wants to see any real footage of the scandal at hand.



Link to video removed pursuant to the Moratorium on Discussing Homosexual Conduct  -PtA
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« Reply #397 on: August 06, 2010, 06:10:50 AM »

After viewing the Video link Posted by....... Grin
Why Is His Holiness, The Ecumenical Patriarch rushing to unite with rome, I can't understand it... Huh
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« Reply #398 on: August 07, 2010, 11:45:46 AM »

I did not know that the US (or some States?) will prosecute clergy for failing to report abuse cases.

2 Phoenix pastors indicted for failing to report accusations of sexual abuse to authorities
 
The Los Angeles Times
Date: 8/5/2010
 
   
PHOENIX (AP) - Two Phoenix pastors have been indicted for not reporting that a girl told them her father was sexually abusing her and her sister.  Maricopa County prosecutors brought the charges Thursday after the man was arrested last month and accused of molesting his two teenage daughters for several years. ....
 
Authorities say 51-year-old Daniel McCluskey and 38-year-old Laura McCluskey are two of the family's pastors. Investigators say one of the girls told the McCluskeys about the alleged abuse in 2008, but he Church on the Word pastors told her to make amends with her father. Prosecutors say the pastors had a duty to report the suspected abuse to state Child Protective Services or law enforcement.

 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-phoenix-pastors-indicted,0,1215713.story



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« Reply #399 on: August 07, 2010, 12:04:36 PM »

I did not know that the US (or some States?) will prosecute clergy for failing to report abuse cases.

2 Phoenix pastors indicted for failing to report accusations of sexual abuse to authorities
 
The Los Angeles Times
Date: 8/5/2010
 
   
PHOENIX (AP) - Two Phoenix pastors have been indicted for not reporting that a girl told them her father was sexually abusing her and her sister.  Maricopa County prosecutors brought the charges Thursday after the man was arrested last month and accused of molesting his two teenage daughters for several years. ....
 
Authorities say 51-year-old Daniel McCluskey and 38-year-old Laura McCluskey are two of the family's pastors. Investigators say one of the girls told the McCluskeys about the alleged abuse in 2008, but he Church on the Word pastors told her to make amends with her father. Prosecutors say the pastors had a duty to report the suspected abuse to state Child Protective Services or law enforcement.

 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-phoenix-pastors-indicted,0,1215713.story


There is a class of people under US Law who are called 'mandated reporters.'   They include teachers, health care workers, clergy, public service officials...not sure who all else, but these people must report suspected cases of abuse or face prosecution on their own.

Do you think that fathers who tamper sexually with their daughters should go to prison?  Is there a line to draw where you simply stop the behaviors and move on or do you tear the family apart for the slightest infraction?

Mary
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« Reply #400 on: August 07, 2010, 12:23:27 PM »


Do you think that fathers who tamper sexually with their daughters should go to prison?  Is there a line to draw where you simply stop the behaviors and move on or do you tear the family apart for the slightest infraction?


I can only speak for the laws of my country where Police have some leeway in laying charges against an abusing father after giving consideration to the situation of the family.  I don't know what percentage of fathers are charged, convicted and imprisoned and what percentage is not.

............
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« Reply #401 on: August 07, 2010, 12:31:11 PM »

That is a beautiful iconic invocation, and most appropriate.   I'll not over-ride it here.

Very interesting that the police have some leeway there.  I think that is very wise.  I don't know that our laws are that full of human compassion in this country...there may be room, but I don't know what it is or how it is expressed or codified.

Mary




Do you think that fathers who tamper sexually with their daughters should go to prison?  Is there a line to draw where you simply stop the behaviors and move on or do you tear the family apart for the slightest infraction?


I can only speak for the laws of my country where Police have some leeway in laying charges against an abusing father after giving consideration to the situation of the family.  I don't know what percentage of fathers are charged, convicted and imprisoned and what percentage is not.

............
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« Reply #402 on: August 07, 2010, 06:29:38 PM »

Hmm ... with all due respect, Mary, YES I think fathers who "tamper with their daughters sexually" should go to prison!  Can't fathom why you think they shouldn't?
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« Reply #403 on: August 07, 2010, 07:06:29 PM »

Hmm ... with all due respect, Mary, YES I think fathers who "tamper with their daughters sexually" should go to prison!  Can't fathom why you think they shouldn't?

Yes.  I am absolutely certain you cannot.

In Christ,

Mary
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« Reply #404 on: August 07, 2010, 08:00:20 PM »

OK - so why shouldn't ANY adult who "tampers with" a child sexually - whether related or not - be dealt with severely by the law??  What am I missing here, Mary? 
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