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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 27163 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2010, 01:02:55 AM »

I don't think that almost anybody in those days would have believed the word of a child against that of a Catholic priest, especially in the large urban areas where the RCC had such a large amount of control.  Also, remember that a large number of the police in those days were Irish Catholics, and they are people who, even if not too practicing, take reverence for their priest very seriously.  Also I highly doubt that even a child's parents would have been too quick to believe their reports of abuse.  The RCC was just too big and too respected for anything to damage her.  It took decades of social decline and a loss of prestige by Catholicism in order to make these reports surface and society in general, especially the media take them seriously.

Then there are the cases where it does become a case of man-boy love and some of the young males went back willingly.  Some went back out of a combination of fear and attraction.  In any event they were loathe to admit to what they'd done.  There are some horrid tragedies out there because of the complexity of the circumstances and emotions involved...and all the unintended consequences.

The suicides sometimes seem to be the most tragic but I've met those who continue to live with the shame and the guilt and all kinds of other crippling issues.

It is not at all as cut and dried as one might imagine from outside.

Mary
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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2010, 12:26:41 PM »

Typical. Whenever someone tries to discuss the issue, catholics engage in an ad hominen attack.
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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2010, 12:26:41 PM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2010, 12:28:22 PM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2010, 12:51:36 PM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
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« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2010, 09:42:40 PM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2010, 11:59:51 PM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?

The rape of children is the smallest portion of the sin and excess.  Are you going to tell me differently?  If so you'll need to provide evidence.  If not then perhaps you'd care to deal with the wide variety in the lived situations available for consideration INCLUDING those where the priest has been falsely accused.

And you may trust me when I tell you that I am one of the last ones you need to convince of the difficulties of overcoming childhood sexual tampering.  So don't start shrieking at me please.  I have seen enough of hysterical men in my life.  For those who survive a good dose of reality is better than a continuation of half-truths and outright lies and those who are more concerned about their own feelings that those of the victims.

Do you think I am mean to you?  Perhaps you too would like to tell me that I am an hysterical woman.  Perhaps you be less shocked if you would talk to more of the survivors.  Perhaps you'd realize that all of the media attention and vengeful rhetoric does nothing at all toward healing...not a thing!

M.
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« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2010, 12:58:33 AM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?

The rape of children is the smallest portion of the sin and excess.  Are you going to tell me differently?  If so you'll need to provide evidence.  If not then perhaps you'd care to deal with the wide variety in the lived situations available for consideration INCLUDING those where the priest has been falsely accused.

And you may trust me when I tell you that I am one of the last ones you need to convince of the difficulties of overcoming childhood sexual tampering.  So don't start shrieking at me please.  I have seen enough of hysterical men in my life.  For those who survive a good dose of reality is better than a continuation of half-truths and outright lies and those who are more concerned about their own feelings that those of the victims.

Do you think I am mean to you?  Perhaps you too would like to tell me that I am an hysterical woman.  Perhaps you be less shocked if you would talk to more of the survivors.  Perhaps you'd realize that all of the media attention and vengeful rhetoric does nothing at all toward healing...not a thing!

M.
OK.
Continue with the coverup.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2010, 08:15:53 AM »

Because the RCC has gone to great lenghts to cover up the problem and protect the perpetrators from legal prosecution?
Please substantiate this claim. I say this not because I don't believe they have, but because this sort of claim needs to be backed up by evidence.

Under the circumstances this kind of argumentation from either side simply makes no sense.

What needs to be said and demonstrated is that there was not any attempt to hide sin.

In the first place the entire social fabric in those decades tended to take lightly the claims of children accusing adults of any kind of wrongdoing.  In fact in most of the cases that came to light with respect to Catholic priests during those years, the police were called and generally nothing was done.  The very same thing can be said about sexual abuse and tampering in families.  Rarely were those instances taken very seriously by public officers of the law.

Also as I noted above most of the cases of abuse registered against Catholic priests involved older boys and priests where there was some kind of complicity whether out of fear or out of some misplaced desire that was not easily controlled on the part of both individuals involved.  These cases tended not to come out till many many years later.

Depending on the spin given some of these cases, our current society would be praising them as a healthy and liberated expression of man-boy love.

So much of the "outrage" that goes on is heavily dependent on what kind of "spin" one wants to put on things.

What is clear is that there is very little to no attention paid to the actual stories set in the context of their times and the people involved.

For most it is just another excuse to throw stones at the Catholic Church...

M.
The revelations are disgusting and shocking. Do I have to describe them? This is not an excuse for throwing stones at the Catholic Church but a simple call for justice for these crimes of child rape.  Why should lawlessness be tolerated when children are being raped?

The rape of children is the smallest portion of the sin and excess.  Are you going to tell me differently?  If so you'll need to provide evidence.  If not then perhaps you'd care to deal with the wide variety in the lived situations available for consideration INCLUDING those where the priest has been falsely accused.

And you may trust me when I tell you that I am one of the last ones you need to convince of the difficulties of overcoming childhood sexual tampering.  So don't start shrieking at me please.  I have seen enough of hysterical men in my life.  For those who survive a good dose of reality is better than a continuation of half-truths and outright lies and those who are more concerned about their own feelings that those of the victims.

Do you think I am mean to you?  Perhaps you too would like to tell me that I am an hysterical woman.  Perhaps you be less shocked if you would talk to more of the survivors.  Perhaps you'd realize that all of the media attention and vengeful rhetoric does nothing at all toward healing...not a thing!

M.
OK.
Continue with the coverup.

It is not a matter of covering up.  It is a matter of looking realistically at what has happened over time and you clearly don't want to do that.  You just want to grind your teeth at the easy enemy. 

We who have survived such things do no appreciate your third, forth and fifth hand shock and awe.  We are not monkeys in a cage.    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.   

Go shout at the schools of psychology that taught that you could heal sexual predators....change their behaviors.

Go do that.  Have the memories of their faculties burned in effigy, if you are in such a need to vent your emotions.

Go picket police stations where officers went out on domestic violence calls and sexual abuse calls no matter WHO did the deed,  and did NOTHING but file a report!!  Who do you think those survivors have to sue?Huh  Where's your voice in that mess?

Put your binoculars down and come on out into the lake of fire if you really give a hoot!!

Mary
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2010, 11:47:26 PM »

    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.
Take my blinders off and go and find out?  find out about what?
You mean we should take a closer look and find out about the child rapes by a Catholic priest  that resulted in suicides? Or that we should take a closer look at what Catholic magazines such as America magazine is talking about when it says that more than 5000 Catholic priests have been involved in "sex abuse"?
Have you read anything about the Catholic priest Father Robert K. Larson who raped a 12 year old boy, Eric Patterson? And what about the other children who he raped who committed suicide, such as Gilbert Rodriguez, Paul Tafolla, Bobby Thompson, Daniel Romney? Should we just forget about these children and their suicides and the thousands of others who have been molested, abused and raped by Catholic priests?
What does it mean to take your blinders off?
And what about the North American Man Boy Love association which was founded and established in part by a Catholic priest? And this Catholic priest received a sterling letter of recommendation from a Catholic cardinal who was familiar with him? 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 11:49:29 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2010, 03:00:49 AM »

Quote
It is not a matter of covering up.  It is a matter of looking realistically at what has happened over time and you clearly don't want to do that.  You just want to grind your teeth at the easy enemy.  

We who have survived such things do no appreciate your third, forth and fifth hand shock and awe.  We are not monkeys in a cage.    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.  

Go shout at the schools of psychology that taught that you could heal sexual predators....change their behaviors.

Go do that.  Have the memories of their faculties burned in effigy, if you are in such a need to vent your emotions.

Go picket police stations where officers went out on domestic violence calls and sexual abuse calls no matter WHO did the deed,  and did NOTHING but file a report!!  Who do you think those survivors have to sue?  Where's your voice in that mess?

Put your binoculars down and come on out into the lake of fire if you really give a hoot!!

Mary

Mary, I don't know how old you are, but I'll say this: the above post of yours sickened me to the core in its dismissal of the monumental difficulty over so many generations to muster the courage to speak out against the physical and sexual abuse inflicted on them and their loved ones, of earlier and later generations to their own. I make no distinction as to whether these crimes were committed by clergy or laity, secular or religious, but the principle, up to a point, is still the same. Show me in law, be that law secular or church law/doctrine, where it is acceptable for children, girls, boys, men, or women to be raped, or physically or sexually abused, particularly when it comes to such crimes perpetrated by clergy, monastics, or laymen (of either sex) in positions of authority within a church, ANY church. Something about millstones and little ones?

And how on God's earth can a child of four, eight, twelve, boy or girl, possibly "ask for it" or "consent" to sexual activity? How could a woman from a "traditional" society of 40-60 or more years ago, walk out of an abusive marriage (abuse, physical and/or sexual, inflicted on her, and/or her children) without her name being blackened and shamed, even if half the town knew what was happening? Why is it that the vast majority of women who have been raped were wearing quite modest clothing at the time? And of the boys and male youths who have been preyed upon while waiting for a bus, walking home from school or work? If it was so hard for so long for girls and women to speak up, spare a thought for the lads!

As for "why did it take so long for the victims to speak up": Do you know any war veterans, Mary? Second World War? Korean War? Vietnam? Do you know anyone who survived Joseph Stalin's "largesse"? How many have dared to speak of their experiences? So many did not speak a word of the horrors they endured, right until their dying day. Why? Too late to ask them now, Mary.

This ain't pop psych stuff, Mary, I have direct relatives over three generations who fall into the above categories. There's even a woman who was lusted after by her priest. She had enough gumption to fend him off, but it almost destroyed her physically and spiritually, though her marriage survived, thanks to her husband being an exceptionally good man who knew and trusted the goodness and integrity of his wife. She was lucky, after a fashion. Others were not, if their husbands were remotely the jealous type. Her son has barely set foot in church since, other than weddings, funerals and the odd Easter and Christmas service.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 03:22:35 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2010, 03:29:19 AM »

    elijahmaria

It's very hard to believe your a Eastern Catholic......

The word's of His Holiness The Late Patriarch of Blessed Memory Pavle [Paul] of Serbia, told the Serbian people that were involved in the Bosnian /Croatian/Muslim conflict ,that committed atrocities ,That with out the admittance of guilt there can be no repentance unto forgiveness....
 The pope and the bishops are guilty as sin, for allowing this evil to continnue all these years and possibly centuries....they all should step down ,check them self's in a monastery in repentance for the rest of there earthly life...
When it comes to religious leaders and the priests ,there can be no second chance,not when people's salvation is at stake........God Have mercy on the soul's that committed suicide over this abuse.....
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 03:38:01 AM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2010, 07:14:54 AM »

Quote
It is not a matter of covering up.  It is a matter of looking realistically at what has happened over time and you clearly don't want to do that.  You just want to grind your teeth at the easy enemy.  

We who have survived such things do no appreciate your third, forth and fifth hand shock and awe.  We are not monkeys in a cage.    Besides if you did go and look there's not much to cover at the moment if you'd take off your blinders and go and find out.  

Go shout at the schools of psychology that taught that you could heal sexual predators....change their behaviors.

Go do that.  Have the memories of their faculties burned in effigy, if you are in such a need to vent your emotions.

Go picket police stations where officers went out on domestic violence calls and sexual abuse calls no matter WHO did the deed,  and did NOTHING but file a report!!  Who do you think those survivors have to sue?  Where's your voice in that mess?

Put your binoculars down and come on out into the lake of fire if you really give a hoot!!

Mary

Mary, I don't know how old you are, but I'll say this:

I am older than you think and much closer to the psyche of the abused than you are.  Who are you tell me what to think about something I know intimately.

Mary

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« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2010, 07:19:12 AM »

   elijahmaria

It's very hard to believe your a Eastern Catholic......

The word's of His Holiness The Late Patriarch of Blessed Memory Pavle [Paul] of Serbia, told the Serbian people that were involved in the Bosnian /Croatian/Muslim conflict ,that committed atrocities ,That with out the admittance of guilt there can be no repentance unto forgiveness....
 The pope and the bishops are guilty as sin, for allowing this evil to continnue all these years and possibly centuries....they all should step down ,check them self's in a monastery in repentance for the rest of there earthly life...
When it comes to religious leaders and the priests ,there can be no second chance,not when people's salvation is at stake........God Have mercy on the soul's that committed suicide over this abuse.....

You don't know what you are talking about.  All you've done is read the accounts and the furor in the press.  You don't move me away from my position with this kind of vengeful talk.  You don't know who is guilty and who is not.  All you know is what the press tells you and you are of a mind to swallow it line and sinker.

I am not.

And yes.  I know personally my own share of suicides of those who suffered all kinds of abuse as children.  I also know many many more survivors...and their blood lust is nothing compared to what is going on in the public places and here.

Mary
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« Reply #104 on: April 27, 2010, 09:23:29 AM »

If this thread isn't part of the "moral panic" instigated recently, I don't know what is.
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« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2010, 09:30:42 AM »

If this thread isn't part of the "moral panic" instigated recently, I don't know what is.

Yes.  And I can tell you that survivors have enough of panic and hysteria to last a life time.  So what is going on in the name of the well being of the victims is not particularly helpful loading the distemper of those well removed from the situations on top of the damage already done.

M.
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« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2010, 10:01:09 AM »

Yes.  And I can tell you that survivors have enough of panic and hysteria to last a life time.  So what is going on in the name of the well being of the victims is not particularly helpful loading the distemper of those well removed from the situations on top of the damage already done.

I personally know someone who was abused by RC clergy.  These people need to heal.  Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known--those who are guilty--and those who are not.  And let the suffering souls of those who have been injured, find peace and solace through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2010, 11:52:27 AM »

Yes.  And I can tell you that survivors have enough of panic and hysteria to last a life time.  So what is going on in the name of the well being of the victims is not particularly helpful loading the distemper of those well removed from the situations on top of the damage already done.

I personally know someone who was abused by RC clergy.  These people need to heal.  Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known--those who are guilty--and those who are not.  And let the suffering souls of those who have been injured, find peace and solace through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Just as anyone who has been abused by a Protestant minister Eastern Orthodox priest, or Jewish Rabbi needs healing.
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« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2010, 05:22:45 PM »

Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known

And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.
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« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2010, 05:34:57 PM »

Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known

And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.

Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

M.
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« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2010, 05:55:34 PM »

Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known
And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.
Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.

Generally, my view is:
- Any abuse by an adult on a child should be reported and dealt with according to the provisions of the law and the Church.

- The Church should go the "extra mile" to ensure that kids are safe within its programs, remembering quite well Christ's admonition about the treatment of children (and how heavy a mill-stone is, exactly).

- No one is benefited by sensationalizing the information - the Orthodox should not throw stones, as we have our own abusers that we have not handled well (and for us, any number of abusers > 0 is way too many, regardless of how small our number of abusers appears when compared to the RCC); and there are larger systems that have seen child abuse and not handled it well (Public Schools being #1, IMO).

- Yes, any abuse by any adult in a religious institution is a scandal, especially to a Christian; but no one benefits by blowing the story up and thus driving millions of people away from Christ because of imperfect people in the Church.

- We do not spend enough time in settings like this discussing the more prevalent and insidious role of volunteers in abuse wrought both in the Churches and the Schools.  For years, pedophiles and their ilk have targeted Church and school ministries because we need and allow so many volunteers, and have such lax oversight, that precursors and early actions of abuse could happen right in front of our eyes and we wouldn't see it.  I have had few time-periods as sickening as watching a video of two or three caught and convicted abusers (who were teenagers when they committed the abuse!) telling us how they manipulated the system and often committed abusive acts within the line-of-sight of the childrens' parents.

- What should we be spending all our energy (and internet verbosity) on?  Developing an inclusive approach to screening and oversight so that our kids are 100% safe in the Church's ministries, both when they're with clergy and when they're with laity, but yet can still experience the joy of Christ's Faith and Love.  Until then, we should pray for the RCC, and for ourselves, that (a) all abusers are found, (b) no children are hurt, and (c) all abusers come to the knowledge of the Truth and repent and resist the temptation to harm others.  Yes - pray for the victims, and pray for the perpetrators.
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« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2010, 06:23:12 PM »


- What should we be spending all our energy (and internet verbosity) on?  Developing an inclusive approach to screening and oversight so that our kids are 100% safe in the Church's ministries, both when they're with clergy and when they're with laity, but yet can still experience the joy of Christ's Faith and Love.  Until then, we should pray for the RCC, and for ourselves, that (a) all abusers are found, (b) no children are hurt, and (c) all abusers come to the knowledge of the Truth and repent and resist the temptation to harm others.  Yes - pray for the victims, and pray for the perpetrators.

This is all so easy on the eyes and heart... 

Thank you so very much, Father

M.
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« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2010, 11:50:14 PM »

How the Nazis engineered a paedophile priests scare

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/how_the_nazis_engineered_a_paedophile_priests_scare/

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« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2010, 01:52:10 AM »

But the Nazis did not make up the North American Man Boy Love association which claims that sex between men and boys is beneficial. And who was a cofounder of this group? None other than Catholic priest Father Paul Shanley. "Boston church officials told their counterparts in San Bernardino, Calif., that Father Stanley was a priest "in good standing" who "has no problem that would be a concern to your diocese" as he was being transferred there in 1990."
http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy47.html
I don't see any point in blaming Adolf Hitler for what has happened.
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« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2010, 09:59:01 AM »

And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

Are you saying that the media is distorting and confusing? How do you know this?
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« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2010, 10:01:11 AM »


Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

This is true. The man I know was hurting before all the press...and he continues to hurt.

Do you also say that the media is distorting the truth?
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« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2010, 10:05:29 AM »

And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

Are you saying that the media is distorting and confusing? How do you know this?

How do you know when you pick up your fork to eat if it is in your right hand or your left hand?
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« Reply #117 on: April 28, 2010, 10:09:33 AM »


This provides some meaningful context. I read somewhere that the perceived leniency of John Paul II came out of the environment where Polish communist authorities (like the Nazis before them) initiated often false charges against priests (many of them holy and innocent), as part of a government campaign to discredit the Roman church. That is to say, there was a temptation to view these charges as emanating from the church's enemies.

Then of course there were magnetic personalities like Fr. Maciel of the Legion of Christ, who had powerful friends in the Vatican (many of them bought off with donations from his order). Some heads did not roll until after the death of John Paul II.

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« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2010, 10:10:32 AM »


Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.

With all due respect Father, I believe that sometimes the opposite can be true.  Sometimes, people repress things over long periods of time and it causes much damage later in life.  When similar incidences are revealed, it can cause the person who is repressing to possibly confront the issue and begin the healing process.  I have much experience with someone very close to me who experienced a lifetime of repression and dissociation. 

But you are correct.  I am not a therapist.  And I do not pretend to teach "counseling 101". 

Forgive this sinner.
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« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2010, 10:17:30 AM »


This provides some meaningful context. I read somewhere that the perceived leniency of John Paul II came out of the environment where Polish communist authorities (like the Nazis before them) initiated often false charges against priests (many of them holy and innocent), as part of a government campaign to discredit the Roman church. That is to say, there was a temptation to view these charges as emanating from the church's enemies.

Then of course there were magnetic personalities like Fr. Maciel of the Legion of Christ, who had powerful friends in the Vatican (many of them bought off with donations from his order). Some heads did not roll until after the death of John Paul II.

Even in the American context there were always charges being brought against priests.  We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up when their parishioners were displeased with a teaching or a discipline imposed upon them.

The Madonna complex in the reverse also applies to some of the indignities they must endure, and very often if a priest did not yield to the flirtations of a woman then she would accuse him to his bishop for improper sexual advances.  I was able to witness to one such case when the woman was foolish enough to brag publicly about what she was going to do to the priest in question.

None of what is being presented in the press today is being told in context and it all makes it seem as though all of the abuse and covering up continues to this moment.

It is all very badly done though so it is easy to pick away at it.  Only people who are exceptionally gullible cannot see through the brain-washing.

And again the distortions are not helping the ones who really do need the truth more than anything else.

M.
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« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2010, 10:18:39 AM »

Part of that healing involves full disclosure.  Let the full truth be known
And what we've witnessed in the moral panic of the last couple of months has been not enough truth and far too much distortion and confusion.

And these distortions and confusions do a grave disservice to the abuse victims.
Unless you've walked in the shoes it is hard to explain  just how much damage all the lurid press does to an already fragile psyche.

Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.

Generally, my view is:
- Any abuse by an adult on a child should be reported and dealt with according to the provisions of the law and the Church.

- The Church should go the "extra mile" to ensure that kids are safe within its programs, remembering quite well Christ's admonition about the treatment of children (and how heavy a mill-stone is, exactly).

- No one is benefited by sensationalizing the information - the Orthodox should not throw stones, as we have our own abusers that we have not handled well (and for us, any number of abusers > 0 is way too many, regardless of how small our number of abusers appears when compared to the RCC); and there are larger systems that have seen child abuse and not handled it well (Public Schools being #1, IMO).

- Yes, any abuse by any adult in a religious institution is a scandal, especially to a Christian; but no one benefits by blowing the story up and thus driving millions of people away from Christ because of imperfect people in the Church.

- We do not spend enough time in settings like this discussing the more prevalent and insidious role of volunteers in abuse wrought both in the Churches and the Schools.  For years, pedophiles and their ilk have targeted Church and school ministries because we need and allow so many volunteers, and have such lax oversight, that precursors and early actions of abuse could happen right in front of our eyes and we wouldn't see it.  I have had few time-periods as sickening as watching a video of two or three caught and convicted abusers (who were teenagers when they committed the abuse!) telling us how they manipulated the system and often committed abusive acts within the line-of-sight of the childrens' parents.

- What should we be spending all our energy (and internet verbosity) on?  Developing an inclusive approach to screening and oversight so that our kids are 100% safe in the Church's ministries, both when they're with clergy and when they're with laity, but yet can still experience the joy of Christ's Faith and Love.  Until then, we should pray for the RCC, and for ourselves, that (a) all abusers are found, (b) no children are hurt, and (c) all abusers come to the knowledge of the Truth and repent and resist the temptation to harm others.  Yes - pray for the victims, and pray for the perpetrators.
This is the most Christian post I have seen on this matter coming form Some one not in the RCC. Your Charity is a breath of fresh air.
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« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2010, 10:28:51 AM »


Papist....If

Fr.Bless...

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ Grin
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« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2010, 11:38:55 AM »

Oh, it's Counseling 101: Talking about the experience with someone who was abused is good, but only in a controlled and very, very safe environment that is set-up for sharing and closure with understanding and perspective.  The publicity, attention, and frequently published details are usually not helpful to someone who is attempting to heal from the experience, and often are quite the opposite.
With all due respect Father, I believe that sometimes the opposite can be true.  Sometimes, people repress things over long periods of time and it causes much damage later in life.  When similar incidences are revealed, it can cause the person who is repressing to possibly confront the issue and begin the healing process.  I have much experience with someone very close to me who experienced a lifetime of repression and dissociation. 

You are correct, although I have found in my very, very limited experience that these folks are in the minority.  However, your point stands - although I think both our positions can be fulfilled simultaneously.  I'm not advocating sweeping anything under the rug, I'm just advocating a sensible position and some moderation.

But you are correct.  I am not a therapist.  And I do not pretend to teach "counseling 101". 

Your statement was correct, though, so no need to apologize for yourself!

Forgive this sinner.

May the Lord forgive!  You have not sinned against me.  Please forgive me for not including your position from the beginning!
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« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2010, 11:46:42 AM »

Fr.Bless...

May the Lord bless you always!  Christos Voskrese!

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ Grin

LOL.  It would be easier for me to cast stones against the RCC if I didn't know of quite a few abuse cases in the OCA, GOA, etc.  We don't get as much publicity because we're not #1 - people are frequently eager to "knock off" #1's (Microsoft, the RCC, the U.S., etc.), and will exaggerate or sensationalize stories to that end.  It doesn't lessen the seriousness of the underlying wrong, but the fluff that is added isn't necessary.
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« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2010, 12:07:37 PM »


Papist....If

Fr.Bless...

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ Grin

Stashko, your own post must be really embarrassing for you.
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« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2010, 01:18:45 PM »

I'm not advocating sweeping anything under the rug, I'm just advocating a sensible position and some moderation.

Absolutely!
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« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2010, 08:32:30 PM »

We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.
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« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2010, 08:35:33 PM »


Papist....If

Fr.Bless...

If Fr.George Is New calender And under the Ecumenical Patriarch ,thats the answer one would expect,Because the new Calender Greeks and the Ecumenical Patriarch are buddy, buddies with the pope and practically in bed togeather........ Grin
Do you thing there will ever come a time when Roman Catholics and Serbian Orthodox can be buddy buddy? Like Roman Catholics and the new calendar Greek Orthodox for example?
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« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2010, 09:05:28 PM »

Stanley 123

In Serbian Orthodoxy,majority are staunch traditionalist...There are a few serbian bishop's,Metropolitains,possably even this New Patriarch Elect that are ecumenist..But they can only go so far ,before the majority rise up and they are replaced......So no to your Question... Grin
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« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2010, 09:20:56 PM »

We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

Unfortunately that came later.  No.  In the time I refer to priests were beaten for refusing to commune people living publicly in sin.  That sort of earth-shattering evil.

But I don't think there was much press then...or you'd know.

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« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2010, 09:54:33 PM »

We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
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« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2010, 11:39:53 PM »

We forget that there was a time, and not all that long ago, when priests were regularly taken out and beaten up ....
Sounds like a pretty good idea when a priest has been having sex with children.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Don't let them abuse again, but don't beat them up, either.  Let's not discard Christ while we condemn others for discarding Christ.
This mercy business should only go so far in my opinion when children's lives are at stake. I go by the Holy Scriptures which talks of millstones about the neck of the offender.
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« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2010, 11:42:57 PM »

Stanley 123

In Serbian Orthodoxy,majority are staunch traditionalist...There are a few serbian bishop's,Metropolitains,possably even this New Patriarch Elect that are ecumenist..But they can only go so far ,before the majority rise up and they are replaced......So no to your Question... Grin
Hi Stashko:
    Well, can Roman Catholics and Serbian Orthodox find any area where there is agreement? Say for example, marching together in a pro-life demonstration?
Thanks.
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« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2010, 01:05:22 AM »

Stanley 123

I like the way your, dealing with these child abuses from the catholic church,on this board . being a catholic faithful and all, your not glossing if over, or bringing up protestant abuses,Jewish ,and others  or directing  the attention elsewhere, but where it belongs ....

The pope is throwing the blame,the bishops ,cardinals ,also Ive read every excuse possible in the news that the catholic church can think of..Something is truly wrong with the catholic church when  prophylactic are considered a major sin if used to prevent  pregnancy,or aids than child molestations,,and the predatory clergy are still allowed to function as such for years and years,by being transferred to do more harm....Enough excuses the pope ,cardinals.bishops  should step down ....





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« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2010, 08:16:45 AM »

Stanley 123

I like the way your, dealing with these child abuses from the catholic church,on this board . being a catholic faithful and all, your not glossing if over, or bringing up protestant abuses,Jewish ,and others  or directing  the attention elsewhere, but where it belongs ....

The pope is throwing the blame,the bishops ,cardinals ,also Ive read every excuse possible in the news that the catholic church can think of..Something is truly wrong with the catholic church when  prophylactic are considered a major sin if used to prevent  pregnancy,or aids than child molestations,,and the predatory clergy are still allowed to function as such for years and years,by being transferred to do more harm....Enough excuses the pope ,cardinals.bishops  should step down ....






once again, how embarrassing for you.
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