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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 28062 times) Average Rating: 0
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stanley123
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« Reply #450 on: August 12, 2010, 11:28:52 PM »

Again, is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of bad seminaries?

If the bad seminaries are kicking out all the good men (Good-bye good men), then what do you have left?
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« Reply #451 on: August 12, 2010, 11:32:35 PM »

Again, is it axiomatic that bad priests come out of bad seminaries?

If the bad seminaries are kicking out all the good men (Good-bye good men), then what do you have left?

The fact that there are many more excellent priests, than bad priests, in the Catholic Church ordained SINCE the late 1950s puts that assertion to a real test.

Mary
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« Reply #452 on: August 12, 2010, 11:46:50 PM »

I really wish you would read the book before challenging me like this, Mary.  It's actually quite supportive of all those good priests you refer to.  But yes, bad seminaries certainly are more likely to turn out poorly trained and badly formed priests.  There's a long interview with EWTN's Fr. John Trigilio about his own struggles to be ordained. 
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« Reply #453 on: August 12, 2010, 11:50:49 PM »

I really wish you would read the book before challenging me like this, Mary.  It's actually quite supportive of all those good priests you refer to.  But yes, bad seminaries certainly are more likely to turn out poorly trained and badly formed priests.  There's a long interview with EWTN's Fr. John Trigilio about his own struggles to be ordained. 

I was simply asking questions to try to open the discussion up a bit more to include what you've said here.
 
I actually read the book back in 2002.

Sorry, I thought we could talk back and forth.  I wasn't challenging you.  I am very familiar with the issues involved, personally so I have an interest in it.

Won't bother you any further.

M.
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« Reply #454 on: August 12, 2010, 11:53:25 PM »

All right then:  how do you figure there are more "excellent" priests now than in the 1950's?  What objective data (not just opinion) can you offer to back that up?
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« Reply #455 on: August 13, 2010, 11:37:23 AM »

All right then:  how do you figure there are more "excellent" priests now than in the 1950's?  What objective data (not just opinion) can you offer to back that up?

When Elijah Maria said there were some bad seminaries among Ukrainian or Byzantine Catholic Churches that were as bad as the RC ones, what did she mean? What aspects of the seminaries were bad? I thought the child abuse scandal was much more of the mandatory celibate RC church and that the Ukrainian / Byzantine Churches allow people who have married in the USA to study at their seminaries?
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« Reply #456 on: August 13, 2010, 01:07:30 PM »

I wouldn't trust any of the eastern catholic or roman catholic clergy ,because they allow and have  bi-ritual priests the jump from latin to eastern catholic or vice a versa,just to be on the safe side and for the childrens sake......... Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #457 on: August 13, 2010, 01:21:08 PM »

Yes stashko, we know what you think. Smiley   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!
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« Reply #458 on: August 13, 2010, 01:46:00 PM »

Yes stashko, we know what you think. Smiley   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!

Doesn't a eastern catholic bi- ritual priest have to be celibate to preform a latin service,and since bi- ritual latin clergy are celibate..see the reason why one can't trust them around the children.....  Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #459 on: August 13, 2010, 01:55:05 PM »

Yes stashko, we know what you think. Smiley   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!

Doesn't a eastern catholic bi- ritual priest have to be celibate to preform a latin service,and since bi- ritual latin clergy are celibate..see the reason why one can't trust them around the children.....  Grin
Man, stashko, your logic is just astounding this morning. Roll Eyes
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #460 on: August 13, 2010, 03:56:11 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.

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theistgal
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« Reply #461 on: August 13, 2010, 05:42:34 PM »

stashko, the priest I referred to with the 4 kids is not bi-ritual.  He is ONLY Romanian Catholic.  (And in case that doesn't make you feel safe, he's also a convert from Orthodoxy.) Smiley
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« Reply #462 on: August 13, 2010, 05:59:56 PM »

/\ /\  SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT:
CATHOLIC CLERGY AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS

Special Report
by
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights

February 2004

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #463 on: August 13, 2010, 06:56:22 PM »

Yes stashko, we know what you think. Smiley   BTW the Romanian Catholic priest at our church is married and has 4, count 'em, 4 adorable kids!

Doesn't a eastern catholic bi- ritual priest have to be celibate to preform a latin service,and since bi- ritual latin clergy are celibate..see the reason why one can't trust them around the children.....  Grin

Hey Stash:

http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/protestant-clergy-abuse-equals-or-exceeds-catholic-clergy-abuse/

Protestant Clergy Abuse Equals or Exceeds Catholic Clergy Abuse
Posted on June 20, 2008 by dannimoss

This article is courtesy of ethicsdaily.com. It was originally posted to the site July 6, 2007.

~~~

By Bob Allen

The Associated Press reported recently that three insurance companies receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, challenging the assumption that clergy sexual abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem that does not take place in other churches.
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stanley123
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« Reply #464 on: August 13, 2010, 07:38:21 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The John Jay report (2004) says that there were reported 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests between 1950 to 2002. ... 4,392 is four percent of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report
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stanley123
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« Reply #465 on: August 13, 2010, 07:40:48 PM »

stashko, the priest I referred to with the 4 kids is not bi-ritual.  He is ONLY Romanian Catholic.  (And in case that doesn't make you feel safe, he's also a convert from Orthodoxy.) Smiley
I don't think that E. Catholics priests in the USA are generally exempt from the celibacy rule. The exception is when a married E.O. priest converts to E. C. 
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« Reply #466 on: August 13, 2010, 07:44:54 PM »

That's right, so I'll repeat myself again (and again in peace) - this priest is ROMANIAN - as in from Romania .  OK?  (Good gravy, I just gave myself a headache!  Too early for vodka? Cheesy )
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stanley123
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« Reply #467 on: August 13, 2010, 07:45:04 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.
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stanley123
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« Reply #468 on: August 13, 2010, 07:47:30 PM »

That's right, so I'll repeat myself again (and again in peace) - this priest is ROMANIAN - as in from Romania .  OK?  (Good gravy, I just gave myself a headache!  Too early for vodka? Cheesy )
I think that under Ceaucescu, the EC Churches were closed and many of the EC attended the EO Churches. After Ceaucescu, many of the former EC returned to EC as they opened some EC Chuches in romania.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #469 on: August 13, 2010, 07:48:51 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
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stanley123
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« Reply #470 on: August 13, 2010, 07:57:37 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

   
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations. 

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
I can read the news and I can observe pictures on the front page of a weekly news  magazine featuring the faces of boys who had been raped by a RC priest and who subsequently committed suicide. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 08:01:46 PM by stanley123 » Logged
elijahmaria
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« Reply #471 on: August 13, 2010, 08:04:39 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
I can read the news and I can observe the front page of Newsweek magazine featuring the faces of boys who had been raped by a RC priest and who subsequently committed suicide.  

I've known some of them personally...the living and the dead.  And I am telling you that your guess work here is repugnant and you arrogate to yourself an understanding that has little to do with the realities.

Yes.  ALL clergy have a particular responsibility to children and adolescents and adults that is only equaled by mothers and fathers.

What you are saying here would be like saying it would be better for me to be raped by my uncle than my father since my father has a particular relationship to me that my uncle does not have.

That kind of disconnected and disembodied emotionalism is just junk thinking. Trash talk, as my son would say.

Mary
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 08:05:55 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

stanley123
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« Reply #472 on: August 13, 2010, 08:32:24 PM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

  
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.  

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary
I can read the news and I can observe the front page of Newsweek magazine featuring the faces of boys who had been raped by a RC priest and who subsequently committed suicide.  

I've known some of them personally...the living and the dead.  And I am telling you that your guess work here is repugnant and you arrogate to yourself an understanding that has little to do with the realities.

Yes.  ALL clergy have a particular responsibility to children and adolescents and adults that is only equaled by mothers and fathers.

What you are saying here would be like saying it would be better for me to be raped by my uncle than my father since my father has a particular relationship to me that my uncle does not have.

That kind of disconnected and disembodied emotionalism is just junk thinking. Trash talk, as my son would say.

Mary
The RCC teaches that the RC priest is another Christ.
As another Christ, the RC priest should be held to a higher standard of morality than the average Joe in the street.
Most people would not consider that to be trash talk, but rather a reasonable implication of what it means for a person to be another Christ.
Throwing up smokescreens in order to evade the obvious won't fool too many people.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #473 on: August 13, 2010, 09:02:24 PM »

The RCC teaches that the RC priest is another Christ.
As another Christ, the RC priest should be held to a higher standard of morality than the average Joe in the street.
Most people would not consider that to be trash talk, but rather a reasonable implication of what it means for a person to be another Christ.
Throwing up smokescreens in order to evade the obvious won't fool too many people.

Society and individuals need to protect children from predators, not just from "other" Christs...You don't target "other" Christs...as you call them...to the exclusion of all other predators...pretending as you said earlier in your stupidity...that one rape is worse than another depending on whether or not the perp is an "other" Christ.

I agreed already that priests and any other clergy have a greater responsibility for their charges, just as parents to but it is absolutely asinine to suggest that rape by a priest is worse than rape by a father or an uncle or a friend's friend....which is what you did.

The fact that the responsibility for clergy abuse is greater does not take away from the fact that clergy are far less likely to rape their flock than a father is likely to rape his daughter.   Those are statistics...not some emotional third hand blather.   And married clergy are actually...statistically....more likely to rape one of their flock than a priest is likely to rape one of his.

So I ask you Mr. Catholic -of -the - Year....what is your point trying to tell me I am hiding something...YOU are hiding something and that is that predators are not JUST priests and priests are actually the least of it in terms of numbers....Hide that!!

Mary
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« Reply #474 on: August 13, 2010, 10:09:06 PM »

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.
Personally, I would not consider $3 billion dollars to be a drop in the bucket. And that is only the cost for the Catholic child abuse scandal in the USA, not counting any of the other countries. And as we all know by now, it is a global crisis.
My guess is that a widow trying to raise her four or five children without support from a father, would consider a tiny fraction of $3 billion dollars, say $50,000 to be a huge blessing for her and her family as they struggle to make ends meet on much less.
But no, let's hand out three billion dollars, with a large percentage of that going to the fat cat lawyers who have so many Mercedes, BMW's, and Lexus cars, that they don't know what to do with them. Let's make sure that the poor Catholic family has to shell out money every week so that these fat cat lawyers for the Church can slurp their $4 Starbucks blended frappucino while driving their luxury cars to one of their many lush  vacation retreats as they collect their exorbitant legal fees from this pot of three billion dollars as a result of the child abuse scandal in the USA.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hdducl7hQD0r8S2o6nYLmitBXR2w
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« Reply #475 on: August 13, 2010, 11:14:16 PM »

So now I have to wonder if you are mad at those "other" Christs because they hurt children and youth or are you really mad because the "other" Christs are responsible for wasting your monetary contributions to the Church?

I must say you have had some very very strange things to say here.

What are you going to do when people catch on and start suing your local governments for protecting sexual predators?  Then your taxes will go to pay settlements or uberhigh insurance premiums.

In that case you won't have any "other" Christs to blame....eh? 

What will you do then?


I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations.
Personally, I would not consider $3 billion dollars to be a drop in the bucket. And that is only the cost for the Catholic child abuse scandal in the USA, not counting any of the other countries. And as we all know by now, it is a global crisis.
My guess is that a widow trying to raise her four or five children without support from a father, would consider a tiny fraction of $3 billion dollars, say $50,000 to be a huge blessing for her and her family as they struggle to make ends meet on much less.
But no, let's hand out three billion dollars, with a large percentage of that going to the fat cat lawyers who have so many Mercedes, BMW's, and Lexus cars, that they don't know what to do with them. Let's make sure that the poor Catholic family has to shell out money every week so that these fat cat lawyers for the Church can slurp their $4 Starbucks blended frappucino while driving their luxury cars to one of their many lush  vacation retreats as they collect their exorbitant legal fees from this pot of three billion dollars as a result of the child abuse scandal in the USA.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hdducl7hQD0r8S2o6nYLmitBXR2w
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« Reply #476 on: August 14, 2010, 12:08:18 AM »

A little more perspective:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_CatholicLeague_SexualAbuse.htm

   
Quote
PRIESTS

According to a [2004] survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]  According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v]  Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi]  Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

That means that in forty to fifty years, out of 60,000 priests, there were slightly more than 900 men accused of some kind of abuse.  Not all of those who were accused were convicted.  Some of them were innocent.  Some of them were removed from the priesthood.  Some were not.

But the bottom line is that out of 60,000 men in a fifty year period, taking the long view, a little more than 900 men were accused of abuse in the United States, which translates to about 18 men per annum.

I hate to tell all y'all but that is a drip in the bucket by comparison to other figures of abuse from other segments of our society including the married pastors from other Christian organizations. 

So stashko may think he's got somethin' goin' on here with his grinning faces but my estimation of stashko is that he dislikes Catholics a whole lot more than he dislikes child abusers....

M.


The RCC teaches that a Catholic priest is another Christ. As another Christ, a Catholic priest is expected to hold to a higher standeard than the average Joe. Further, my guess is that it is more traumatic for a boy to be raped by another Christ, than to be raped by an average Joe.

My guess is that you've never been raped by either or you'd know just how truly ignorant that kind of guess work really is.

Mary

Good grief!   Surely you're not saying.....?
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« Reply #477 on: August 14, 2010, 02:35:38 PM »

So now I have to wonder if you are mad at those "other" Christs because they hurt children and youth or are you really mad because the "other" Christs are responsible for wasting your monetary contributions to the Church?
Both.
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« Reply #478 on: August 14, 2010, 03:47:07 PM »

So now I have to wonder if you are mad at those "other" Christs because they hurt children and youth or are you really mad because the "other" Christs are responsible for wasting your monetary contributions to the Church?
Both.

Then it would be good to hear you acknowledge that there is a MUCH MUCH larger problem out there that remains unaddressed while people are busy attacking the Catholic Church.

Mary
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« Reply #479 on: August 14, 2010, 07:15:47 PM »

Then it would be good to hear you acknowledge that there is a MUCH MUCH larger problem out there that remains unaddressed while people are busy attacking the Catholic Church.

Mary
I try to follow the rules of the board: "For purposes of continuity and consistency, please keep ALL threads on target to their original purpose.  If you want to deviate, start a new thread."
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« Reply #480 on: August 14, 2010, 07:23:14 PM »

Then it would be good to hear you acknowledge that there is a MUCH MUCH larger problem out there that remains unaddressed while people are busy attacking the Catholic Church.

Mary
I try to follow the rules of the board: "For purposes of continuity and consistency, please keep ALL threads on target to their original purpose.  If you want to deviate, start a new thread."


So you are telling me that you DARE NOT mention, in this thread, the fact that by comparison to other clergy and other segments of American society, American priests are, statistically, the LEAST likely of all known abusers to sexually abuse a child, or you will be in violation of Forum rules?

Amazing...truly astonishing logic...well...maybe not.

M.
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« Reply #481 on: August 14, 2010, 07:59:59 PM »

The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm
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« Reply #482 on: August 14, 2010, 08:13:41 PM »

You cannot provide data from the United States to refute what I have said about priests being LEAST likely to abuse a child or youth sexually.   It does not exist.

What you have provided here is an image of what the abuse looks like.  ALL abuse has elements of violence...physical and emotional.  ALL abuse depends, for its life, on secrecy and some kind of intimidation. There is no one picture for sexual abuse by "other" Christs that is vastly different from those non-Christ figures who abuse sexually.

Your image tells us how horrid ALL abuse is by showing one example.  

It tells us nothing of the numbers which is what I was talking about.  I've given you data collected from impartial sources...not just "images" of what it looks like and disembodied numbers that have no comparative value.




The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm

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« Reply #483 on: August 14, 2010, 08:30:47 PM »

You cannot provide data from the United States to refute what I have said about priests being LEAST likely to abuse a child or youth sexually.   It does not exist.

What you have provided here is an image of what the abuse looks like.  ALL abuse has elements of violence...physical and emotional.  ALL abuse depends, for its life, on secrecy and some kind of intimidation. There is no one picture for sexual abuse by "other" Christs that is vastly different from those non-Christ figures who abuse sexually.

Your image tells us how horrid ALL abuse is by showing one example. 

It tells us nothing of the numbers which is what I was talking about.  I've given you data collected from impartial sources...not just "images" of what it looks like and disembodied numbers that have no comparative value.




The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.
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« Reply #484 on: August 14, 2010, 08:37:52 PM »

You cannot provide data from the United States to refute what I have said about priests being LEAST likely to abuse a child or youth sexually.   It does not exist.

What you have provided here is an image of what the abuse looks like.  ALL abuse has elements of violence...physical and emotional.  ALL abuse depends, for its life, on secrecy and some kind of intimidation. There is no one picture for sexual abuse by "other" Christs that is vastly different from those non-Christ figures who abuse sexually.

Your image tells us how horrid ALL abuse is by showing one example. 

It tells us nothing of the numbers which is what I was talking about.  I've given you data collected from impartial sources...not just "images" of what it looks like and disembodied numbers that have no comparative value.




The statistics on abuse claims afainst the RCC are horrific. According to the Ontario Police, in 1990, there were 200 charges of assault against 30 Christian Brothers.
“I saw many young children beaten up and strapped. I saw Brother --- wake up young children and take them to a room to sexually assault them. I saw children handcuffed to a pillar in the basement. They would be pushed and kicked. I saw Brother --- use a pool table stick to hit children if they would not have anal sex with him. Children were given cold showers then strapped. If I told any Brothers that another Brother tried to have sex with me, I would be strapped."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex3.htm

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

Again....what I offered for the United States are comparative figures that indicate that Catholic priests are the LEAST likely to be active sexual predators.

When you can produce impartial comparative data that refutes the data I have presented then we can look at it, of course. 

Till then...

Mary
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« Reply #485 on: August 14, 2010, 10:56:37 PM »

Statistics

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

248,300 divided by 300,000,000 is about a 0.8% abuse rate in the general population.

200 divided by the number of Catholic Christian Brothers in the USA gives the abuse rate for Catholic Christian Brothers.

Then you have to consider whether children abused in the Catholic Church are less likely to report sexual harassment than other people (adult men, women, children) abused in the general population.

Then you have to consider that sex assault of children is a subcategory of sex assault overall, so the percent of reported child sex assault in the general population is lower than .8%.

Qualitatively worse
The abuse that occurred 50 years ago was very much more worse qualitatively than in the general population. That is because the abuse took place in the context of strong regular corporal punishment. The view in Catholic Schools was that whipping children with canes or thick boards was a major good way to "deal" with kids' mistakes.

I have enough anecdotal evidence from elderly acquaintances that in northern states the whippings in Catholic schools were usually harder and more frequent than in public schools in the 1950's. The "brothers" and the children are already used to a physically abusive relationship and where the children are forced to physically submit and bend over for whippings. Sex abuse becomes worse and more likely to happen in this context as you saw with the straps, where disagreement meant more whippings.


Some private non-diocesan Catholic schools in Louisiana still whip children, and southern states' laws have Teacher Protection Acts to protect teachers who cause bruises, which often happens with caning, board whippings, and leather strappings.

Nowadays all diocesan Catholic schools recognize that whipping chidlren is wrong, and most northern states would consider whippings that cause bruises to be child abuse.

Elijah Maria, do you look fondly on good old-fashioned Catholic school discipline, or do you think that frequent physical abuse made sex abuse more violent?
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« Reply #486 on: August 14, 2010, 11:18:09 PM »

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

248,300 divided by 300,000,000 is about a 0.8% abuse rate in the general population.

200 divided by the number of Catholic Christian Brothers in the USA gives the abuse rate for Catholic Christian Brothers.

Then you have to consider whether children abused in the Catholic Church are less likely to report sexual harassment than other people (adult men, women, children) abused in the general population.

Then you have to consider that sex assault of children is a subcategory of sex assault overall, so the percent of reported child sex assault in the general population is lower than .8%.



LOL...right.  Don't look at the studies based on real data...just toss up a few numbers and make up your own perameters...LOL

It isn't funny actually.

Those least likely to report abuse are children who are sexually abused by their parents...They are also the highest number of reported cases.

M.
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« Reply #487 on: August 14, 2010, 11:27:23 PM »

Those least likely to report abuse are children who are sexually abused by their parents...They are also the highest number of reported cases.
M.

A parent might abuse his/her 3 kids, but the reports in the institutions are of one brother abusing children systematically and the institution somehow not knowing of this or taking adequate preventive measures. Perhaps they tried to hush things up. I would rather have an organization be criticized for so-called "proportionate" abuse and on the lookout for it than one that allows abuse or tries to hide it while people mistakenly think its a place of safety for their kids when it is no different than letting your kids be with a random celibate stranger "from the statistical general population." And creeping behind this are reports that we hear about the seminaries.

We should expect better for our kids under their care, not worse.

Please answer the question in the previous post, thanks.
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« Reply #488 on: August 15, 2010, 09:27:09 AM »

Those least likely to report abuse are children who are sexually abused by their parents...They are also the highest number of reported cases.
M.

A parent might abuse his/her 3 kids, but the reports in the institutions are of one brother abusing children systematically and the institution somehow not knowing of this or taking adequate preventive measures. Perhaps they tried to hush things up. I would rather have an organization be criticized for so-called "proportionate" abuse and on the lookout for it than one that allows abuse or tries to hide it while people mistakenly think its a place of safety for their kids when it is no different than letting your kids be with a random celibate stranger "from the statistical general population." And creeping behind this are reports that we hear about the seminaries.

We should expect better for our kids under their care, not worse.

Please answer the question in the previous post, thanks.

I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

Do I think the man in question was beaten in Catholic school?

No.  I don't.

I went to Catholic school in the 1950's and nobody was beaten.

I am sorry that others were.

I have been beaten.  I am not a hitter because of it and it did not leave me with a hyperactive libido.

I think you are looking for bed bugs where there are no bed bugs but in doing so you miss the giant dung beetles that ARE there and need to be put in more appropriate places.

So I am getting from you here that we can't help those children who are raped repeatedly in their own family units, who are the preponderance of cases, so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

But for someone like myself I must say that attitude disgusts me.

Mary
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« Reply #489 on: August 15, 2010, 09:36:35 AM »


so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.
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« Reply #490 on: August 15, 2010, 10:03:51 AM »


so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.

Oh that's not MY issue Father.  It's quite a good point to make but I am basing what I said on a refusal to see reality.  You are talking about people who are looking square at reality and have the proper attitude toward victim and sinner. 

Now you are pretending that I say that people like that hate Catholic priests more than they hate the acts...well I would never say that about people who speak as those you describe here.  My guess is that they don't shy away from reality.

Well you cannot compare a real statement based on a an immediate conversation with a pretend and guesstimated reaction to something that is entirely different in content.

Well actually you can because you just did...and that is more indicative of your needs than it is indicative of anything I am saying here about any of this.

Mary
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« Reply #491 on: August 15, 2010, 10:36:35 AM »


so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.

Oh that's not MY issue Father.  It's quite a good point to make but I am basing what I said on a refusal to see reality.  You are talking about people who are looking square at reality and have the proper attitude toward victim and sinner. 

Now you are pretending that I say that people like that hate Catholic priests more than they hate the acts...well I would never say that about people who speak as those you describe here.  My guess is that they don't shy away from reality.

Well you cannot compare a real statement based on a an immediate conversation with a pretend and guesstimated reaction to something that is entirely different in content.

Well actually you can because you just did...and that is more indicative of your needs than it is indicative of anything I am saying here about any of this.

My needs?!  Would you explain to me and to the forum what you perceive as my needs?   Your use of ad hominem is getting rather frequent.
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« Reply #492 on: August 15, 2010, 10:42:23 AM »


so we will place inordinate attention on one group of abusers that we love to hate....well...OK.

I think this accusation shows that you are out of touch with the reality of it.  I had a meal this evening with two friends out from Ireland, a publican and a school teacher, and as you know, Ireland has been literally through hell over the last 12 months with the governmental reports on the wide spread child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy.

Now, these people do not "hate" this group of abusers.  They feel profound pain for them and for their victims.  And when I asked the overall feeling in Ireland, they replied that it was the same as theirs.  Grief and more grief, but certainly not hatred for the abusers.

I think that your scenario about hatred is one within your own head.

Oh that's not MY issue Father.  It's quite a good point to make but I am basing what I said on a refusal to see reality.  You are talking about people who are looking square at reality and have the proper attitude toward victim and sinner. 

Now you are pretending that I say that people like that hate Catholic priests more than they hate the acts...well I would never say that about people who speak as those you describe here.  My guess is that they don't shy away from reality.

Well you cannot compare a real statement based on a an immediate conversation with a pretend and guesstimated reaction to something that is entirely different in content.

Well actually you can because you just did...and that is more indicative of your needs than it is indicative of anything I am saying here about any of this.

My needs?!  Would you explain to me and to the forum what you perceive as my needs?   Your use of ad hominem is getting rather frequent.

Your tone with me and the lengths that you go to twist my messages into something that they are not seems to me to indicate some kind of need that you have to do that...because it is endless...

I don't like it.  I think it is intellectually dishonest among other things. 

Do I have no right to say that?  or to defend my messages against your unwarranted distortions?

Are you trying to stir up hostility against me with your note here?  It would appear so to me.

Have fun!!

Mary

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« Reply #493 on: August 15, 2010, 06:48:37 PM »

Statistics

the statistics are available for anyone to see.
A. 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers.
B. In the USA in 2007, there were 248,300 victims of sexual assault in a population of 300,000,000.

248,300 divided by 300,000,000 is about a 0.8% abuse rate in the general population.
It is actually a whole lot less by ten times. It is a 0.08 % abuse rate in the general population. How does that compare with 200 charges of sexual assault against 30 Catholic Christian Brothers?
BTW, all this emphasis on statistics is a smokescreen designed to distract people's attention and emotions away from the horrific, perverted, ugly child abuse which has gone on as a witness has described it as quoted above.
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« Reply #494 on: August 15, 2010, 06:54:12 PM »

I know a case of an eastern Catholic priest, never reported in the press, who either tied or handcuffed two boys to a metal bed and raped them repeatedly.  One of the boys committed suicide later in life.

How many more unreported cases of these rapes of children, and subsequent suicides have not been reported? This is truly horrific and perverted. If the Catholic authorities do nothing in cases like this, should they not be subject to some sort of reprimand?
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