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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 27162 times) Average Rating: 0
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stanley123
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« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2010, 02:48:57 AM »

While I do not believe that celibacy is a major factor in pedophilia, I still think that the RCC's demands that all her priest embrace this lifestyle goes against human nature.  Celibacy is an extremely difficult callingwhich can only be embraced effectively by those who are very spiritually advanced.  Monks and Nuns live in communities of constant prayer, self discipline, and contemplation which help them follow a celibate lifestyle with less difficulty then those who must live and work in a more wordily environment, like parish priest.  Furthermore, a wife and children are not a hindrance to a priest being able to relate to and serve his people, but it is an extremely humanizing factor in helping the clergy to understand and communicate more effectively with his flock.  The priest wife is also a way for women to relate more closely to their priest.  Also, being married and having to raise kids also helps the priest understand what we the laity have to go through in our daily lives and maybe make him more sympathetic to family issues.
Yes. What you say here makes a lot of sense. But are there statistics or data which show that married E. Orthodox clergy are much less likely to have this problem with abusing children, then the celibate Catholic clergy? Like I said above, some Catholics like to trot out statistics which apparently show that the problem is more severe among the married Evangelical or married Jewish clergy than among the celibate Catholic clergy.
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« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2010, 02:58:16 AM »

But are there statistics or data which show that married E. Orthodox clergy are much less likely to have this problem with abusing children, then the celibate Catholic clergy? Like I said above, some Catholics like to trot out statistics which apparently show that the problem is more severe among the married Evangelical or married Jewish clergy than among the celibate Catholic clergy.

On this note, I would refer to Mark Twain, who told us "There are three types of lies: Lies, d***ed lies, and statistics".

Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  Tongue
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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2010, 11:32:24 AM »

But in the end don't be fooled, just because EOy hasn't had this stuff plastered on CNN doesn't mean it doesn't exist and happen, even on a regular basis.
This is just a question. Among married Eastern Orthodox priests, would you say that the number of child abuse cases is roughly comparable to the number found in the celibate Catholic clergy or different?

Briefly, I think at least according to known reports from sites like POKROV and other others, that child abuse is higher among celibate clergy than among married clergy. But it is NOT non existent among married clergy. But I do think the evidence bears out the fact a systemic issue within the celibate ranks in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.


See my PM for additional thoughts....
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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2010, 05:32:32 PM »

Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  Tongue
Perhaps then you just made up that statistic on the spot with nothing to back it up?
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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2010, 06:13:36 PM »

Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  Tongue
Perhaps then you just made up that statistic on the spot with nothing to back it up?

Who, me?  angel

The point being always keep in mind that statistics can be and often are modified to reflect the bias of the one reporting the statistic.  The Roman Church will give statistical evidence stating one thing, while Protestants and Orthodox will report statistics to show things in their light.  Secularists will have their own axe to grind, so will issue statistics to condemn all clergy. 

The big question is, of course, whether or not clergy of any stripe are more or less likely to be involved in child molestation than males of any other profession.  But good luck finding non-biased reporting on that.

But, as far as the scandal itself goes, it definitely seems as if the Roman Church goes to greater lengths to gloss over or downright cover-up these incidents.  This does not indicate that clerical celibacy is the issue, of course.  It could be that since Rome has a more massive and centralized hierarchical bureaucracy than others it becomes easier to give in to a "good ole boy" mentality.  Government, even church government, will go to great lengths to protect their own.

And I think this is the main issue.  Child abuse will unfortunately happen, because man is sinful; and no one has yet figured out a way to effectively prevent any criminal action, let alone this one.  But how we react to the child abuse is of paramount importance.  Who is it we are worried about the most, the child or the priest?
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« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2010, 09:04:27 PM »

Fact: 90% of statistics are made up on the spot  Tongue
Perhaps then you just made up that statistic on the spot with nothing to back it up?

Who, me?  angel

The point being always keep in mind that statistics can be and often are modified to reflect the bias of the one reporting the statistic.  The Roman Church will give statistical evidence stating one thing, while Protestants and Orthodox will report statistics to show things in their light.  Secularists will have their own axe to grind, so will issue statistics to condemn all clergy. 

The big question is, of course, whether or not clergy of any stripe are more or less likely to be involved in child molestation than males of any other profession.  But good luck finding non-biased reporting on that.

But, as far as the scandal itself goes, it definitely seems as if the Roman Church goes to greater lengths to gloss over or downright cover-up these incidents.  This does not indicate that clerical celibacy is the issue, of course.  It could be that since Rome has a more massive and centralized hierarchical bureaucracy than others it becomes easier to give in to a "good ole boy" mentality.  Government, even church government, will go to great lengths to protect their own.

And I think this is the main issue.  Child abuse will unfortunately happen, because man is sinful; and no one has yet figured out a way to effectively prevent any criminal action, let alone this one.  But how we react to the child abuse is of paramount importance.  Who is it we are worried about the most, the child or the priest?

This post hits the nail squarely on the head and my instinctive answer is that we must be worried about both innocent children and the wrongly accused professional. However, in our desire to protect the wrongfully accused, we have to ensure that we are not providing a safe haven for offenders and predators in which to take refuge.I have a few thoughts on the subject and I apologize if I ramble a bit.

Criminal justice experts generally assert that pedophilia is, to a large extent, a crime of opportunity and planning. The American laws requiring the registration of sexual offenders and the limitations on where they may reside or visit are premised upon that assertion in order to give them a legally sustainable basis. In order to protect children, we have identified a number of professions in which members must be vetted prior to being hired. (For example, in most  states this includes child care workers, teachers, coaches....) In many states, religious organizations have sought and obtained exclusions from such mandatory review processes as well as laws requiring mandatory reporting of suspected child neglect and abuse to authorities. ( Professions required to report suspected abuse include teachers, doctors, health care professionals and many others. Clergy are typically exempted.)  I suggest that we need to revisit those exclusions and that proactively, churches should propose ways to include church functions under the umbrella of such laws(with appropriate confidentiality exceptions.)

Careers which present offenders, or would-be future offenders, with the opportunity to be around and gain the trust of children are attractive to pedophiles. (I am talking here about non-relative based offenders, relatives can gain and abuse trust more easily from vulnerable children in their care.) The clergy is not the only career which presents such 'opportunities' to offend, but given the moral status and expectations of clergy, the public is more deeply offended when the failings of a clergyman are exposed.

Other professions certainly have their share of offenders. The medical profession, for example is not immune from such offenders. Earlier this year there was an incredible case of a pediatrician in Delaware who is accused of molesting children over a period of many years while maintaining the appearance of being a pillar of the community. In my area there is a pending case involving a retired Episcopalian priest, a man around whom rumors circulated for years, before his Bishop retired him from active ministry after allowing him to move several times between dioceses. Last year there was a high profile case involving a gymnastics coach for a travelling girls team which involved so-called 'sexting' and under-age sex as well as several cases involving high school teachers and under-age children. I am sure that all posters could relate similar stories from their local media.

All church organizations should establish easily understandable, and published, rules and regulations regarding the screening of persons pursuing vocations, including (where permitted by state law) the use of the sexual offender clearance process through the various state agencies compiling data about known offenders as well as psychological tests and background checks. Volunteers should be vetted with some form of reasonable background checks - even for small congregations.  When allegations of abuse or misconduct are reported to parish or diocesan officers, they must be treated with respect and an initial determination, based upon existing, written standards and conducted by an individual or individuals at least minimally trained for such purposes, should be made to first determine whether the allegations are credible or not.

It is a difficult balancing act to protect the class of potential or actual victims and at the same time to protect the names and reputations of potentially innocent men and women. However, it is a task that we must undertake. It is all the more difficult for us as Christians in that we are torn between our obligation to 'hate the sin, but love the sinner' and our core belief in redemption and forgiveness.

It is not an easy dilemma.

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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2010, 07:39:27 AM »

DECLARATION OF THE PRESS OFFICE DIRECTOR

http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2010/04/declaration-of-press-office-director.html

VATICAN CITY, 15 APRIL 2010 (VIS) - The Holy See Press Office Director, Fr. Federico Lombardi, S.J., made the following declaration yesterday afternoon:

  "Ecclesial authorities do not consider it within their competency to make general affirmations of a specifically psychological or medical character and therefore naturally must refer to the study of specialists and the inquiries they carry out."

  "Concerning the competency of ecclesial authorities, in the area of the causes of abuse of minors on the part of priests, which the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has faced in recent years, the statistical data related by Msgr. Charles J. Scicluna states that in 10% of cases of pedophilia, in the strict use of the term, 90% should rather be defined as ephebophilia (that is, with adolescents). Further, 60% of those are of a same sex and 30% of a heterosexual character. This, of course, references the problems of abuse on the part of priests and not of the population in general."
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« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2010, 10:44:05 AM »

I have been following this sad story for a number of years here in the United States. I take no joy from the disorder within my brother's house. As the son, brother and nephew of Orthodox priests I can tell you that the damage that this continuing scandal has caused to the station of all clergy and honest men and women of faith who work with church related entities and children has been enormous and made their work all the more difficult on a daily basis.

We should all earnestly pray that the Holy Spirit calm the turbulent waters and offer His Guidance to the Pope and the Bishops of the Roman Church as they struggle to come to grips with both the reality and the perception of the pedophile problem.

The American civil liberties scholar and trial attorney Alan Dershowitz recently posted an interesting defense so to speak of the Catholic Church and her problems. Among his more salient points were:

"The first tradition involves confidentiality, particularly not exclusively the confidentiality of the priest with regard to the penitent. But there is also a wider spread tradition of confidentiality within the Church hierarchy itself.

Second, there is the tradition of forgiveness. Those of us outside the Church often think, perhaps, that the Church goes too far in forgiving. I was shocked when the previous Pope immediately forgave the man who tried to assassinate him. But this episode and other demonstrate that the tradition of forgiveness is all too real.

Third, there is the tradition of the Church regarding itself as a state. The Holy See is a sovereign state. The Catholic Church is not big on the separation of church and state, as are various Protestant denominations. The Catholic Church, like Orthodox Judaism, believes that matters affecting the faithful should generally be dealt within the church, without recourse to secular authorities.

Fourth, the Vatican prides itself on moving slowly and in seeing the time frame of life quite differently than the quick pace at which secular societies respond to the crisis of the day.

Fifth, the Catholic Church has long had a tradition of internal due process. Cannon Law provides for scrupulous methods of proof. The concept of the "devil's advocate" derives from the Church's effort to be certain that every "t" is crossed and every "i" is dotted, even when it comes to selecting saints....

....It is obvious that despite Pope Benedict's good efforts, more must be done, and not only by the Catholic Church but by all institutions that have experienced hierarchical sexual exploitation. They must create structures that assure prompt reporting, a zero-tolerance policy, and quick action, so long as these processes are consistent with due process and fairness, not only to alleged victims but to the accused as well. It's easy to forget, in the face of real victims with real complaints, that there have also been false accusations as well. Processes must be put in place that distinguish true complaints from false ones.

Most importantly, this tragedy should not be used as an excuse to attack a large and revered institution that does much good throughout the world. Blame must be placed with precision and praise should be given with precision as well. The eleventh Commandment, thou shalt not stereotype, must never be forgotten.  "
http://afranciscanabroad.com/2010/04/10/alan-dershowitz-on-the-sex-abuse-crisis/comment-page-1/

While the first, second and fourth part of his analysis may equally apply to Orthodoxy, I think that the third and fifth points made by Dershowitz are worth considering in the context of our Faith as a means of comparison to the model of the Church of Rome. I believe that one of the reasons that we have not heard as much about problem clergy in Orthodoxy is not because they do not exist but rather, because the Churches of Orthodoxy, unlike Rome, are decentralized, not as codified and bound by legalisms. Our ruling, Diocesan Bishops, unlike Roman bishops, do have authority to act within their own dioceses and settle their own problems under the guidance of their synod.

Perhaps out of the smoking ruins of this scandal, the Holy Spirit will move the Church of Rome in a manner that will enable her to become more like the Apostolic Church and provide her with a spirit of true conciliarity rather than a 'central command structure' that more resembles the excesses of a middle ages monarchy or modern totalitarian state at times.

We can only pray that it be so. In the meantime, we should pray that the Theotokos offer her loving protection and intercession for our separated bretheren in their times of turmoil.

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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2010, 01:58:45 AM »

I think it is difficult to say what is going on in Orthodox churches worldwide, whether, your "conciliar" model is better at preventing sex abuse problems or simply better at keeping them quiet. It is plainly evident that Orthodox get very little attention in Western media.

I would point out that the Catholic practice of rigorously documenting everything, and the centralized bureaucracy and canon law described by you, have allowed the scandals to be exposed. No written evidence, no scandal.

Of course, it is also true that the Catholic Church is by far the largest and most visible target. If the media does not cover something, it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Considering all of these caviats, it still goes without saying that there must be better accountability and efficiency in handling child abuse in the global Catholic Church.

And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.



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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »

I believe that one of the reasons that we have not heard as much about problem clergy in Orthodoxy is not because they do not exist but rather, because the Churches of Orthodoxy, unlike Rome, are decentralized, not as codified and bound by legalisms. Our ruling, Diocesan Bishops, unlike Roman bishops, do have authority to act within their own dioceses and settle their own problems under the guidance of their synod.

Yes. I believe this also.
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2010, 10:17:06 AM »

I think it is difficult to say what is going on in Orthodox churches worldwide, whether, your "conciliar" model is better at preventing sex abuse problems or simply better at keeping them quiet. It is plainly evident that Orthodox get very little attention in Western media.

I would point out that the Catholic practice of rigorously documenting everything, and the centralized bureaucracy and canon law described by you, have allowed the scandals to be exposed. No written evidence, no scandal.

And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.


The non-global organizational structure of the Orthodox Church does not mean that there is not a tradition of 'rigorous documentation' and bureaucracy within her component parts. We also maintain records and documentation regarding issues of Church law and internal discipline.
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2010, 10:48:40 AM »

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but many are justifiably upset that rather than having the priests prosecuted the Church simply moved them around.

Here is my question: Why didn't the parents of the victims call the cops?

In the US, we have heard stories over the years of teachers, baseball coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, you name it, taking advantage of the children they are in charge of. In each case, the parents contact the police.

While I know in some cases that the abuse took place in Orphanages where the victim might not have an advocate to contact the cops on their behalf, in many of the cases the victims did.

If my child comes home and tells me that anyone has touched them in an unwelcome manner, my first call will not be to the person's boss, but to the police.

I am not trying to "blame the victim", but rather trying to understand the situation.

Why were the Bishops contacted by but not the police?
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2010, 11:22:21 AM »

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but many are justifiably upset that rather than having the priests prosecuted the Church simply moved them around.

Here is my question: Why didn't the parents of the victims call the cops?

In the US, we have heard stories over the years of teachers, baseball coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, you name it, taking advantage of the children they are in charge of. In each case, the parents contact the police.

While I know in some cases that the abuse took place in Orphanages where the victim might not have an advocate to contact the cops on their behalf, in many of the cases the victims did.

If my child comes home and tells me that anyone has touched them in an unwelcome manner, my first call will not be to the person's boss, but to the police.

I am not trying to "blame the victim", but rather trying to understand the situation.

Why were the Bishops contacted by but not the police?

I think that it is because of the 'special relationship' that the faithful may have had, both Orthodox and other believers, with their spiritual leaders. If you honestly believed that 'they', i.e. the Bishops et al, would 'take care' of the offender, you trusted that would be the case, particularly in the context of people's reactions to certain things going back thirty or forty years ago. If you look back at that time period other groups 'hushed' the 'unspeakable' crimes up, including educators, coaches, scout leaders, medical professionals and others. As a society we no longer refuse to speak of such crimes among ourselves and with our kids. That is a change for the better. I think that what is happening now is a reflection of the shock and horror at coming to realize that such trust was, most likely, misplaced. I think that the Dershowitz article, previously posted, also addresses some of your points.
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2010, 12:11:34 PM »



And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.




Like in public eduation for example. Last year. here in the U.S. there over 400,000 reported cases of child sexual abuse in public schools. The problem is even more serious in the schools than it is in the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2010, 12:29:17 PM »



And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.




Like in public eduation for example. Last year. here in the U.S. there over 400,000 reported cases of child sexual abuse in public schools. The problem is even more serious in the schools than it is in the Catholic Church.

While true, the issue the Church faces is more complex as she needs to light the way to righteousness and salvation. That is not the mission of the secular institutions under attack.
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2010, 02:39:31 PM »



And of course, that applies to other churches and to secular institutions too.




Like in public eduation for example. Last year. here in the U.S. there over 400,000 reported cases of child sexual abuse in public schools. The problem is even more serious in the schools than it is in the Catholic Church.

While true, the issue the Church faces is more complex as she needs to light the way to righteousness and salvation. That is not the mission of the secular institutions under attack.
I absolutely agree with you. The Church needs to be the light of the world and has no excuse whatsoever for this kind of behavior. This being said, the media is treating it as if its an epidemic in the Catholic Church, when it is not.
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2010, 02:48:52 PM »

This being said, the media is treating it as if its an epidemic in the Catholic Church, when it is not.

I believe it has reached epidemic proportions in the Latin church.

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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2010, 03:42:01 PM »

This being said, the media is treating it as if its an epidemic in the Catholic Church, when it is not.

I believe it has reached epidemic proportions in the Latin church.

How very nice that you believe that. But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2010, 03:43:43 PM »

But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.

You're kidding, right?  I do not take joy in this travesty...but the evidence is overwhelming.
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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2010, 03:46:35 PM »

But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.

You're kidding, right?  I do not take joy in this travesty...but the evidence is overwhelming.
When it the rate of pedophelia is the same or lower among the Catholic clergy, I am not sure that it is proper to characterize the problem in the Catholic Church as an epidemic.
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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2010, 03:49:27 PM »

But don't expect anyone to take your belief seriously until you can marshall evidence to demonstrate it.

You're kidding, right?  I do not take joy in this travesty...but the evidence is overwhelming.
Sour grapes from an ex-Catholic. Should I be surprised? I have watched your attitude towards the Church go from bad to worse over the past couple of years. If this trend continues you will soon be handing out Jack Chick tracts.
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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2010, 03:55:26 PM »

Sour grapes from an ex-Catholic.

No...not sour grapes...it is called abuse....and it is a terrible problem.
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2010, 03:56:40 PM »

Sour grapes from an ex-Catholic.

No...not sour grapes...it is called abuse....and it is a terrible problem.
I agree. Its a terrible problem. Of course there is a much higher rate of it in Public education. Why address it in the Church but not here? Answer: Anti-Catholic bias
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2010, 04:10:26 PM »

I agree. Its a terrible problem. Of course there is a much higher rate of it in Public education. Why address it in the Church but not here? Answer: Anti-Catholic bias

The problem should be addressed everywhere that it exists.  It is especially troubling when it happens in a church. Pope Benedict had tears in his eyes as he addressed some of the Malta victims---is that anti-Catholic bias?

Everyone knows it has been a problem in the RCC. Calling it anti-Catholic does not make it go away.  Sad
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2010, 04:12:35 PM »

I agree. Its a terrible problem. Of course there is a much higher rate of it in Public education. Why address it in the Church but not here? Answer: Anti-Catholic bias

The problem should be addressed everywhere that it exists.  It is especially troubling when it happens in a church. Pope Benedict had tears in his eyes as he addressed some of the Malta victims---is that anti-Catholic bias?

Everyone knows it has been a problem in the RCC. Calling it anti-Catholic does not make it go away.  Sad
Pretending like there are more people who sexually abuse children in the Catholic Church than other institutions is anti-Catholic bias. Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong. What has happened in the Catholic Church that cries out to God. But let's be honest about the real nature of the situation.
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2010, 04:18:09 PM »

Calling any abuse in any Church "epidemic" may be correct, but only internally - that is, the Church holds itself to the highest standards, and sees anything less as a blight.

However, if one looks at it from an external perspective, and compares rates to other institutions, it's clear that the problem in the RCC is not nearly as bad as it is in Public Education, where you have (IIRC) both a higher rate and, because of the difference in overall size, more people affected.

Even looking at the RCC's issues with the subject one must differentiate between what was perpetrated by clergy, which is treated as if it were the majority of cases, and what was perpetrated by lay volunteers, which is actually the majority of cases, because they involve different spiritual treatments and certainly require different means of prevention.
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2010, 04:18:16 PM »

Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.

Uh...because it is a continuing problem and they are held to a higher standard.
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2010, 04:19:31 PM »

Even looking at the RCC's issues with the subject one must differentiate between what was perpetrated by clergy, which is treated as if it were the majority of cases, and what was perpetrated by lay volunteers, which is actually the majority of cases, because they involve different spiritual treatments and certainly require different means of prevention.

That is a very good point, Father.
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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2010, 04:19:54 PM »

Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.

Uh...because it has been a continuing problem?
It's a continuing problem everywhere.
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2010, 04:31:45 PM »

Again, why is it being addressed in the Catholic Church but not elsewhere.

Uh...because it has been a continuing problem?
It's a continuing problem everywhere.

Case in point from today's New York Times....Suit Accuses USA Swimming of Negligence  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/sports/20swim.html?ref=sports
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« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2010, 04:41:14 PM »

Of note is the title of the article vis-a-vis the title of any number of articles in the NYT regarding the abuse scandal in the RCC.
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« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2010, 06:16:24 PM »

Of note is the title of the article vis-a-vis the title of any number of articles in the NYT regarding the abuse scandal in the RCC.

I agree that most of the news media treatment of the sex scandal in the US, from MSNBC through CBS through Fox and the major papers have sensationalized the problems in the Catholic Church. Regardless of how one feels about Roman Catholicism, it is an historical fact that the Roman church has endured much anti-Catholic bigotry throughout American history.
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« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2010, 06:20:42 PM »

Of note is the title of the article vis-a-vis the title of any number of articles in the NYT regarding the abuse scandal in the RCC.

I agree that most of the news media treatment of the sex scandal in the US, from MSNBC through CBS through Fox and the major papers have sensationalized the problems in the Catholic Church. Regardless of how one feels about Roman Catholicism, it is an historical fact that the Roman church has endured much anti-Catholic bigotry throughout American history.
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« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2010, 01:14:41 AM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.

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« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2010, 02:43:24 AM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
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« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2010, 09:38:31 AM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?
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« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2010, 09:39:24 AM »

So when do we start trying to stop the child sexual abuse in the institution where it is even more rampant than in the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2010, 03:32:55 PM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
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« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2010, 03:37:39 PM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
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« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2010, 04:04:01 PM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
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« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2010, 04:07:20 PM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
But that assumes a continuity with the past. We have cracked on down on abuse here in the U.S. and made easier to report and try cases. I don't think the same thing will happen over and over and you have no reason to assume that either.
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« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2010, 04:08:58 PM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
But that assumes a continuity with the past. We have cracked on down on abuse here in the U.S. and made easier to report and try cases. I don't think the same thing will happen over and over and you have no reason to assume that either.
It would be nice, but there are still reports coming out from around the world. Let us pray that you are right and that this will abate.
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« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2010, 04:10:12 PM »


In 2009, there were 6 credible cases of abuse reported in the Catholic Church in the United States. Six. In a church of 65 million.


I think that there were 398 new allegations reported in 2009, in the USA, where six allegations involved children in 2009. The remaining 392 allegations were made by those who were sexually abused before 2009. So, it does not follow that there will not be reported many more cases in 2009 as time goes on.
And please note that the fees for attorneys in 2009 was about $29 million. And the total costs incurred in 2009, including attorneys fees, settlements, and other costs was running about $104 million.
This is a lot of money to pay for lawyers when people are on the streets begging for food or work.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/ocyp/annual_report/9_CH4.pdf
What is your point?

It is more than six.
And the amount of money spent (almost 2 billion dollars) could be better used to provide food and shelter for the poor. 
The point was that there six reported cases that occured in 2009.
But you asked me what my point was. My point is simply that if history is any judge, then it could very well happen that there will be many more cases reported later on which occurred in 2009. So the statement that there were in fact only six cases in 2009 would  not be true.
But that assumes a continuity with the past. We have cracked on down on abuse here in the U.S. and made easier to report and try cases. I don't think the same thing will happen over and over and you have no reason to assume that either.
It would be nice, but there are still reports coming out from around the world. Let us pray that you are right and that this will abate.
That's because its time for the rest of the world to go through it's reform, just as we have here in the U.S.A.
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« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2010, 04:57:11 PM »

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but many are justifiably upset that rather than having the priests prosecuted the Church simply moved them around.

Here is my question: Why didn't the parents of the victims call the cops?

In the US, we have heard stories over the years of teachers, baseball coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, you name it, taking advantage of the children they are in charge of. In each case, the parents contact the police.

Dear Handmaiden,

In fact parents did call the police.  If you remember, most of the abuse cases in the Catholic Church, when they finally came to light were 20, 30, 40 years old some of them.  I am old enough to remember that society as a whole did not take these kinds of accusations seriously.  It was an adults word against a child's word or a youth's word and the police would log the report, ask a few questions and go away.

If it happened with the same priest often enough, the priest was removed and placed into counseling and/or sent away on a retreat with a confessor to consider his evil ways and make firm amendment to stop them.  He was then sent to another place to start fresh where his new life and purpose were believed to have a chance of taking root.

It was still believed in those days that men who were so attracted to children or youths would be able to control themselves.  The fact of the matter is that most of them can.  It is only a slight percentage of true pedophiles who will not or cannot contain themselves.

This is the a short pared down version.  The short answer about why parents did not call the police?....

They did.

M.
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« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2010, 12:53:03 AM »

I don't think that almost anybody in those days would have believed the word of a child against that of a Catholic priest, especially in the large urban areas where the RCC had such a large amount of control.  Also, remember that a large number of the police in those days were Irish Catholics, and they are people who, even if not too practicing, take reverence for their priest very seriously.  Also I highly doubt that even a child's parents would have been too quick to believe their reports of abuse.  The RCC was just too big and too respected for anything to damage her.  It took decades of social decline and a loss of prestige by Catholicism in order to make these reports surface and society in general, especially the media take them seriously.

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